Warp Drive VS Alcubierre drive

[Lucky]

What are the differences between a Warp Drive in Star Trek and the theoretical Alcubierre drive?

[Praeothmin]

What are the differences between a Warp Drive in Star Trek and the theoretical Alcubierre drive?

One works and the other is still theoretical only? ;-)

[Mr. Oragahn]

With the other, the AD, you have to be careful to all the crap you'll drag with you and really take care of your angle of entry into a system, iirc.

[Mith]

One requires high levels of matter-anti-matter reactions and the other requires more power than our galaxy can currently generate?

[Lucky]

One requires high levels of matter-anti-matter reactions and the other requires more power than our galaxy can currently generate?

What makes you think that Star Trek ships are matter/antimatter reaction powered, or that they are limited by E=MC^2? Last time I checked there are at least some Star Trek powers on the level of the UFP that easily generated the 1e267 Watts/cm^2 disruptor beams.

Absurd reactor outputs are something that is common in Star Trek.

[Mith]

One requires high levels of matter-anti-matter reactions and the other requires more power than our galaxy can currently generate?

What makes you think that Star Trek ships are matter/antimatter reaction powered, or that they are limited by E=MC^2? Last time I checked there are at least some Star Trek powers on the level of the UFP that easily generated the 1e267 Watts/cm^2 disruptor beams.

Absurd reactor outputs are something that is common in Star Trek.

You seem to be under the misconception that 1e267 watts/cm^2 is anywhere near the level of energy we're talking about. To put it mildly; what you're talking about is still a small flicker of a candle's flame compared to the sort of energy needed to power Alcubierre's pipe-dream of a star drive. It's literally just barely less impossible to achieve than brute forcing your way to lightspeed.

The whole point of warp drive as a writing tool was to avoid having a ship that generates infinite energy+ to achieve faster than light speeds. If they were going to use energy required for the Alcubierre drive, then they're practically using near unlimited energy anyway.

When you take this into account with Star Trek, it would mean that a planet is simply that thing that splattered on your windshield and someone's going to have to clean it up later. The sort of energy that you're talking about would literally be planet shattering firepower.

As for energy limitation...what's the point of using real figures if you get nothing like them? Especially for Star Trek, which tries to in theory, ground some of their work in reality? Even giving them perfect mixing for antimatter is rather...well, generous to say the least. Acting as though their normal fusion and antimatter reactors and weapons easily violate energy limitations goes against the spirit of Star Trek.

EDIT

Oh yeah, and you might want to stop drinking the cool-aid. Planet busting weapons? Seriously? Even though in the same series, they couldn't pop a small moon sized asteroid heading for a planet of Native Americans? Kinda would have been useful there. Also makes me wonder why later series just didn't show us ships mass vaporizing entire planets with single beam strikes rather than relying on a small fleet for bombardment, super weapons, and other methods that doesn't involve the most obvious use of firepower in regards to the energy you're talking about.

[Lucky]

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 254#p43254

You seem to be under the misconception that 1e267 watts/cm^2 is anywhere near the level of energy we're talking about. To put it mildly; what you're talking about is still a small flicker of a candle's flame compared to the sort of energy needed to power Alcubierre's pipe-dream of a star drive. It's literally just barely less impossible to achieve than brute forcing your way to lightspeed.

The whole point of warp drive as a writing tool was to avoid having a ship that generates infinite energy+ to achieve faster than light speeds. If they were going to use energy required for the Alcubierre drive, then they're practically using near unlimited energy anyway.

Isn't 1e267 watts/cm^2 more energy then 3x10^69 joules?
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/r ... Boom_Table

Anyway we are talking about a single anti-aircraft gun on a planet in a setting where almost everyone has the equivalent of deathStars.

When you take this into account with Star Trek, it would mean that a planet is simply that thing that splattered on your windshield and someone's going to have to clean it up later. The sort of energy that you're talking about would literally be planet shattering firepower.

The Federation has had planet shattering fire power for a long time. It was a plot point of the episode Booby trap. They don't use the planet busting weapons because they have even better stuff by the time of the episode.

We also see ship vs planet in DS9, and the ship came out just fine while the planet ended up with a cave, but I doubt that is the sort of thing you are talking about.

As for energy limitation...what's the point of using real figures if you get nothing like them? Especially for Star Trek, which tries to in theory, ground some of their work in reality? Even giving them perfect mixing for antimatter is rather...well, generous to say the least. Acting as though their normal fusion and antimatter reactors and weapons easily violate energy limitations goes against the spirit of Star Trek.

Star Trek knowingly throws known physics out the window. It does it with weapons, antimatter, tritanium, duranium, and I seem to recall it moving at high fractions of the speed of light for no reason and dilithium

When do we get told how much energy is being consumed by the warp drive, and navigational deflect?

Oh yeah, and you might want to stop drinking the cool-aid. Planet busting weapons? Seriously? Even though in the same series, they couldn't pop a small moon sized asteroid heading for a planet of Native Americans? Kinda would have been useful there. Also makes me wonder why later series just didn't show us ships mass vaporizing entire planets with single beam strikes rather than relying on a small fleet for bombardment, super weapons, and other methods that doesn't involve the most obvious use of firepower in regards to the energy you're talking about.

You are talking about a Moon sized asteroid that wasn't round, and seemed to be traveling at high fractions of the speed of light if not faster then light for no reason that I am aware of. Isn't there a better example of what you are talking about?

[sonofccn]

that I am aware of. Isn't there a better example of what you are talking about?

Well from the original series there would be Balance of Terror( 1st season) where the Federation builds its monitering stations in "nearly solid iron" asteriods and we get this statment from one of the base commanders:

The viewscreen shows a man in a wrecked room, surrounded by fires)
HANSEN [on viewscreen]: Enterprise, can you see it? My command post here. We're a mile deep on an asteroid. Almost solid iron. And even through our deflectors, it did this. Can you see?

Which would be akin to being amazed at the level of destruction the USS Missouri's guns had managed against a single layer of bubble wrap.

Then we have Pegasus from the seventh season of The Next Generation and it taking most of the Enterprise-D torpedoes to destroy the asteriod which has never been scaled to my knowledge planet sized or larger.

And really when you get right down to it even TDIC what with even with the most generous interpetations a full salvo from twenty warships can only vaporize 30% of the planet. Which is not to say TDIC is not a high figure but it is a far cry from a 23rd century ship being able to mass scatter a planet on its lonesome.

[Mith]

Isn't 1e267 watts/cm^2 more energy then 3x10^69 joules?
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/r ... Boom_Table

In reference to what?

Anyway we are talking about a single anti-aircraft gun on a planet in a setting where almost everyone has the equivalent of deathStars.

So what? Those are super weapons. They are not the standard armament of a Federation Starship. A photon torpedo will level cities and a full on warship destroy all sentient life on a planet with enough time.

This is no more absurd then when people claim gigatons for Star Wars. Yes, this actually happens in the highest canon form of Star Trek, but it isn't supported by the stories or the setting.

The Federation has had planet shattering fire power for a long time.

Yes, that isn't in dispute. But they are not weapons that they use against each other.

It was a plot point of the episode Booby trap. They don't use the planet busting weapons because they have even better stuff by the time of the episode.

We can't really extrapolate too much from Booby Trap, other than that Starfleet can A) do the same and B) do it with more sophisticated technology.

We also see ship vs planet in DS9, and the ship came out just fine while the planet ended up with a cave, but I doubt that is the sort of thing you are talking about.

I have no clue as to what you're talking about.

Star Trek knowingly throws known physics out the window.

No. The worst of Trek tends to violently rape physics and even basic logic. See Voyager and several episodes of TNG, TOS, and ENT. Hell, probably DS9 too. Star Trek, when consistently written well, circumvents physics due to the problems that it would otherwise imply. Phasers are one, warp is another, and transporters are yet another.

I am not saying that there is no known way of enhancing something like say, antimatter. But if you're not even going to use anything close to realistic, then you might as well say "magic" or simply make up jargon words.

They didn't. And when they did mess up antimatter, it was done out of ignorance of the scientific material, not because their vision was to have their antimatter work differently.

It does it with weapons, antimatter, tritanium, duranium, and I seem to recall it moving at high fractions of the speed of light for no reason and dilithium

Of course there's a reason. It just isn't scientifically accurate due to the lack of existence of subspace. But it is logical, reasonably well explained, and consistent.

When do we get told how much energy is being consumed by the warp drive, and navigational deflect?

None, not really. We are however, given clear story limitations in regards to actual physical limitations of these ships. That being, that their ships can't simply push small planetoids out of the way with their tractor beams or their deflector dish. That is a direct contradiction to one or two jargon quotes of energy that rival's God's uppercut.

You are talking about a Moon sized asteroid that wasn't round, and seemed to be traveling at high fractions of the speed of light if not faster then light for no reason that I am aware of. Isn't there a better example of what you are talking about?

Deja Q still ruins your argument. This is really just getting silly now. You can't seriously be arguing planet busting firepower for phaser banks and photon torpedoes.

[Lucky]

Well from the original series there would be Balance of Terror( 1st season) where the Federation builds its monitering stations in "nearly solid iron" asteriods and we get this statment from one of the base commanders:

The viewscreen shows a man in a wrecked room, surrounded by fires)

HANSEN [on viewscreen]: Enterprise, can you see it? My command post here. We're a mile deep on an asteroid. Almost solid iron. And even through our deflectors, it did this. Can you see?

Which would be akin to being amazed at the level of destruction the USS Missouri's guns had managed against a single layer of bubble wrap.

You forgot to highlight the the part of your quote that says that the asteroid has shields, and missed the part about the asteroid being armored with a fictional substance called rodinium.

SPOCK: From the outpost's protective shield. Cast rodinium. This is the hardest substance known to our science. 


Then we have Pegasus from the seventh season of The Next Generation and it taking most of the Enterprise-D torpedoes to destroy the asteriod which has never been scaled to my knowledge planet sized or larger.

That is hardly a mundane object.

DATA: This asteroid contains several deep chasms large enough for a starship to enter. It is possible the Pegasus drifted into the asteroid's gravitational field and was pulled down into one of the fissures.
_____
DATA: I would recommend against it, sir. There may be gravimetric or magnetic fluctuations inside the asteroid which would overpower the engines of a shuttlecraft.

A normal asteroid might as well have no gravity, or magnetic field as far as Star Trek propulsion systems are concerned. It is either far larger then shown in the episode, or made of exotic matter. Either way it isn't the example you want it to be.

And really when you get right down to it even TDIC what with even with the most generous interpetations a full salvo from twenty warships can only vaporize 30% of the planet. Which is not to say TDIC is not a high figure but it is a far cry from a 23rd century ship being able to mass scatter a planet on its lonesome.

First off we have no idea as to what they expected the planet to be made out of.

Secondly the entire thing was a trap, and we can't know how reliable their data was. This calls a number of things into question such as if the time table was created by a changeling to give them an advantage.

Thirdly the results of the bombardment and the computer projections don't match up at all.

LOVOK: Computer analysis indicates that the planet's crust will be destroyed within one hour, and the mantle within five.
_____

PILOT: Thirty percent of the planetary crust destroyed on opening volley. No change in lifeform readings. 

TAIN: What? That's impossible. Some of them had to be killed. 

PILOT: Our sensor readings have been confirmed by three other warbirds. There has been no change in the number of life-signs on the surface. 

GARAK: They're using an automated transponder to send back false sensor readings. The planet's deserted.

The event can't be quantified because of a large number of unknowns, and the fact that the Dominion was purposely feeding false data. The data they had from the beginning could have been false. The only thing TDIC shows is that planetary destruction is possible, but we knew that already from a number of other episodes

[Lucky]

In reference to what?

To each other. One is the theoretical big bang, and the other is a anti-star ship weapon.

So what? Those are super weapons. They are not the standard armament of a Federation Starship. A photon torpedo will level cities and a full on warship destroy all sentient life on a planet with enough time.

The Xindi planet killer or the Doom's Day machine are super weapons. That disruptor wasn't a super weapon any more then plasma torpedos are. Sure they would have been dead had they not had their shields up, but the weapon was nothing they couldn't deal with.

This is no more absurd then when people claim gigatons for Star Wars. Yes, this actually happens in the highest canon form of Star Trek, but it isn't supported by the stories or the setting.

1e267 watts/cm^2 are used on screen, and joked about.

There are no examples of gigaton firepower in Star Wars.

Yes, that isn't in dispute. But they are not weapons that they use against each other.

The United Federation of Planets uses anti-matter weapons all the time. An ounce blew off an M-class planet's atmosphere, and they used a probe to destroy a solar system eating space germ. Heck, Garth planned to destroy a planet, and was only stopped by his crew.

We can't really extrapolate too much from Booby Trap, other than that Starfleet can A) do the same and B) do it with more sophisticated technology.

Booby trap only clarifies that statements that sounded like hyperbole were not hyperbole.

KIRK: That's very flattering. I am primarily an explorer now, Captain Garth. 

GARTH: And so have I been. I have charted more new worlds than any man in history. 

KIRK: And tried to destroy Antos Four. Why? 

GARTH: Well, I could say because they were actively hostile to the Federation. 

KIRK: Yes, you could say, but that would be untrue. 

GARTH: Agreed. Actually they were quite harmless, and they made me whole when I was maimed and dying. And in my gratitude, I offered them the galaxy. They rejected me, and I condemned them to death. 

SPOCK: How could you, a Starship fleet Captain, believe that a Federation crew would blindly obey your order to destroy the entire Antos race, a people famous for their benevolence and peaceful pursuits? 

GARTH: That was my only miscalculation. I had changed. I had risen above this decadent weakness which still has you in its command, by the way, Captain. My crew had not. I couldn't sway them, but my new crew, the men in this room, will obey my orders without question. Gentlemen, you have eyes but you cannot see. Galaxies surround us, limitless vistas. And yet the Federation would have us grub away like some ants on some somewhat larger than usual anthill. But I am not an insect. I am master of the universe, and I must claim my domain. 

KIRK: I agree there was a time when war was necessary, and you were our greatest warrior. I studied your victory at Axanar when I was a cadet. In fact it's still required reading at the Academy. 

GARTH: As well it should be. 

KIRK: Very well. But my first visit to Axanar was as a new fledged cadet on a peace mission. 

GARTH: Peace mission! Politicians and weaklings! 

KIRK: They were humanitarians and statesmen, and they had a dream. A dream that became a reality and spread throughout the stars, a dream that made Mister Spock and me brothers.

[Control room]

KIRK: Listen to me. This may be our last chance. Garth will destroy all of us unless you help me stop him. And he's using you, you know that, because he wants the power for himself. I brought something that might have cured you, but he destroyed it. If I can get a patrol down, they'd bring more of that medicine and 

(Kirk tries to switch off the forcefield and gets hits for his effort. Garth enters.) 

GARTH: Well done. Well, Captain, you continue to resist. How stupid of you. Put him in that chair right here. I've arranged a small entertainment. I wouldn't want him to miss any of it. Well, Captain, even you must admit that I'm a genius. What you see here is my latest invention. This is an explosive, the most powerful one in history. If I were to drop this flask, the resulting explosion would vaporise this planet. Now do you see why it is ridiculous to resist me? Well, perhaps you require the demonstration I've arranged. Watch closely. 

(Shutters open to show the planet surface on a screen.) 

GARTH: Now, it is true that she is deadly as a poisonous serpent, but she is also a beautiful woman, and you have held her in your arms, Captain. I've ordered my men to drive her out of the protective dome. And, of course, she would choke to death on the outside in minutes. 

(On the screen, Marta is struggling against two figures in environment suits.) 

GARTH: But I've arranged a more merciful end for her because after all, Captain, she is my consort. One tiny crystal implanted in her necklace, a portion of this explosive no bigger than a grain of sand. I propose to detonate it from here. 

(Marta is left alone, choking.) 

GARTH: Poor girl. Poor, dear, suffering child. I will help her now. 

(Boom!)

[Bridge]

SULU: There's been an explosion on Elba Two! 

SCOTT: Point nine five! 

MCCOY: It must've wiped out everything. 

SCOTT: Immediate probe. Is the force field in place, Mister Sulu? 

SULU: Yes, sir. Solidly. 

UHURA: (at Spock's station) Life continues to exist on the planet. 

MCCOY: Got to break through it somehow. 

SCOTT: Doctor, I told you we couldn't do it without killing everyone in the asylum dome. 

MCCOY: I know it, Scotty. 

SCOTT: Well, there's one last thing we might try. Perhaps the ship's phasers can cut through a section of the force field at its weakest point. Where did you say that was located, Mister Sulu? 

SULU: On the far side of the planet, Mister Scott. 

MCCOY: Will it leave a margin of safety for the people below? 

SULU: Yes, sir. 

SCOTT: Prepare to change orbital path, Mister Sulu. 

SULU: Orbital co-ordinates released, sir. 

SCOTT: Break synchronous orbit. Come to course one four mark six eight. 
(after a few moments) 

SULU: Course one four mark six eight. Synchronous orbit re-established, sir. 

SCOTT: Ship's phasers to narrow beam. 

SULU: Ship's phasers ready, sir. 

SCOTT: Let's punch a hole in it. Full power. Another blast, full power. 

SULU: Force field still holding, sir.

SPOCK: Doctor, evidence indicates the creature is here to spawn. If so, it will reproduce by fission, not just into two parts, but thousands. 

KIRK: Antimatter seems our only possibility. 

SPOCK: An ounce should be sufficient. We can drain it from the ship's engines and transport it to the planet surface in a magnetic vacuum field. 

KIRK: Contact medical stores. I want as much haemoplasm as they can spare in the transporter room in fifteen minutes. 

GARROVICK: Yes, sir. 

MCCOY: I presume you intend to use that haemoplasm to attract the creature? 

KIRK: We must get it to the antimatter. It seems attracted to red blood cells. What better bait could we have? 

SPOCK: There is still one problem, Captain. 

KIRK: The blast, yes. 

SPOCK: Exactly. A matter-antimatter blast will rip away half the planet's atmosphere. If our vessel is in orbit and encounters those shock waves 

KIRK; A chance we'll have to take, Mister Spock. 

SPOCK: Also, we cannot be certain the transporter will operate under those conditions. If a man is beaming up when that hits, we may lose him. 

KIRK: That's exactly why I've decided to set the trap myself. 

SPOCK: Captain, there is so little hemoglobin in my green blood, the creature could not harm me extensively. It therefore seems logical for me to be the one 

KIRK: Negative, Mister Spock. In case this plan fails, I'll need you aboard the ship. In that event, we'll need another plan. 

SPOCK: It will require two men to transport the antimatter unit.

[Bridge]

KIRK: Spock, you may have been right. We've lost contact with the Intrepid and we're out of communication with an entire solar system. Any update from Starfleet? 

UHURA: I cannot filter out the distortion, sir. It's getting worse. 

KYLE: Captain, deflector shields just snapped on. 

KIRK: Slow to warp three. 

KYLE: Warp three, sir. 

SPOCK: Indications of energy turbulence ahead. Unable to analyse. I've never encountered readings like this before. 

KIRK: Scanners on. Magnification three on the screen. 

KYLE: Magnification factor three, sir. 

UHURA: Exactly what are we looking for, Mister Spock? 

SPOCK: I would assume that. 

(In the middle of the viewscreen is a black blob.) 

KIRK: What is that? 

CHEKOV: Perhaps an interstellar dust cloud. 

SPOCK: Not very likely, Ensign. 

KIRK: No. You'd be able to see stars through a dust cloud. Looks like a hole in space. Readings, Mister Spock. 

SPOCK: Still not able to analyse, Captain. Sensors are feeding data to the computers now. Whatever this dark zone is, it lies directly in line with the course I calculate for the Intrepid and the Gamma Seven-A system. 

KIRK: Hold present course. Slow to warp one. 

KYLE: Warp factor one, sir. 

KIRK: Mister Chekov, prepare to launch a telemetry probe into that zone. Direct computer feed to Mister Spock. 

CHEKOV: Aye, sir. Probe ready. Switching data feed to library computer. 

KIRK: Launch probe. 

CHEKOV: Probe launched, sir. 

(A high pitched sound comes over the speakers.) 

KIRK: What was that? 

UHURA: The telemetry probe, sir. There's no signal from it. 

KIRK: Speculation, Spock. 

SPOCK: I have none, Captain. Insufficient data. 

(Chekov is still groaning and Uhura looses her balance.) 

SPOCK: Lieutenant. 

UHURA: I'm just dizzy. I'll be all right. I'm fine, sir. 

MCCOY [OC]: Sickbay to Captain Kirk. McCoy here. 

KIRK: Kirk here. What is it? 

MCCOY [OC]: I'm getting reports from every deck. Half the people on this ship just fainted. 

KIRK: Uhura almost did. She says she's all right. Do you want to see her? 

MCCOY: Not unless she's feeling ill. I've got an emergency here.
_____

[Bridge]

SPOCK [OC]: (Barely audible over static) The nervous energy of the organism is maximal just within its outer protective membrane. Relatively insensitive to interior irritation. I believe sufficient charge of (inaudible) could destroy the organism. Tell Doctor McCoy he should have wished me luck.

Captain's log stardate 4309.4. We have determined we can destroy the creature, provided we can do it from inside the organism. Spock clearly knew how to destroy it but was unable to transmit that information.

[Kirk's quarters]

MCCOY: How do you feel? 

KIRK: What's on your mind? 

MCCOY: Spock. Is it me, Jim? Am I so sentimental that I just have to keep believing that he's still alive in that mass of protoplasm? 

KIRK: He knew the odds when he went out there, just as you did when you volunteered to go. What is that thing out there, Bones? It's not intelligent. Not yet. 

MCCOY: It's a disease, like a virus invading the body of our galaxy. 

KIRK: Yes, it is, isn't it? How many cells does the human body have? 

MCCOY: Millions. 

KIRK: This thing, this cell, this virus. It's eleven thousand miles long, and it's one cell. When it grows into millions, we'll be the virus invading its body. 

MCCOY: Now, isn't that a thought? Here we are, antibodies of our own galaxy, attacking an invading germ. It would be ironic indeed if that were our sole destiny, wouldn't it? 

KIRK: Antibodies. Antibodies. (goes to desk monitor) Bridge. 

SCOTT [OC]: Scott here, sir. 

KIRK: Scotty, how much power do we have left?

[Bridge]

SCOTT: We're down to forty three percent, sir. We're slipping a bit against the pull that beastie's putting on us.
_____
KIRK: Anti-power. 

MCCOY: What? 

KIRK: This thing has a negative energy charge. Everything seems to work in reverse. We'll use anti-matter. 

SCOTT: Aye, it couldn't swallow that. 

KIRK: Mister Chekov, prepare a probe. Scotty, we'll need a magnetic bottle for the charge. How soon? 

SCOTT: It's on its way, sir. 

KIRK: Mister Chekov, we'll use a timing detonator for the probe. Work out a setting. 

CHEKOV: Aye, sir. 

KIRK: Helmsman, when do you estimate arrival at nucleus? 

KYLE: Seven minutes, sir. 

MCCOY: How close are you going to it? 

KIRK: Point blank range. We'll implant it then back away. 

MCCOY: Why? The probe has a range of 

KIRK: With the eddies and currents in that protoplasm, the probe could drift thousands of kilometres. We must be exactly on target, because we won't have a second chance. Bones, time for another stimulant. 

MCCOY: How long do you think you can keep taking that stuff? It'll blow you apart. 

KIRK: Keep me together for another seven minutes. That's all I need.

[Command centre]

(Degra is standing with T'Pol as Tucker works lying on the floor by the wall. The main display screen is a maze of fuzz and distortion) 

T'POL: We've been working to reconstruct our database. 

TUCKER: The pounding your ships gave us didn't help much. Try it now. I'm going to reset the optical subprocessors. That might clear it up. When we slipped through your detection grid, we got a look at the weapon you're building. An impressive piece of engineering. Hell, it'd take at least a thousand starships like Enterprise to blow up an entire planet. You know, I'd like to see the telemetry from the probe you launched against Earth. 

T'POL: Increase the data resolution. 

TUCKER: I assume you were watching the attack, calculating the blast yields. Boy, you must have been pretty damn excited. I mean, that beam cut one hell of a swath through Florida. That's the name of one of the places you destroyed. Florida. 

T'POL: Commander.

[Briefing room]

TORRES: The probe was destroyed by an experimental Cardassian weapon from the Alpha quadrant. 

(Paris runs in, late.) 

PARIS: Sorry. 

TORRES: I recognise it's signature because, because I know this weapon very well. Chakotay and I got our hands on it when we were fighting the Cardassians. 

KIM: How did it get here? 

CHAKOTAY: Probably the same way we did. 

TORRES: The last time we saw it, it was heading in the same direction in the Badlands where the Caretaker picked us up. 

CHAKOTAY: Originally the Cardassians sent this thing to destroy a Maquis munitions base. We nicknamed it Dreadnought. It's a self-guided tactical missile carrying a charge of a thousand kilos of matter and another thousand of antimatter. 

TUVOK: Enough to destroy a small moon. 

TORRES: Now add to that one of the most sophisticated computer systems I've ever seen. They made this missile adaptable, evasive, armed with it's own defensive weaponry. In other words, unstoppable.

[Science Lab]

TUVOK: Calibration complete. Phase modulator. Detonator circuits? 

KIM: On standby. 

TUVOK: We're ready to load the gravimetric charge. 

KIM: This looks like enough for a fifty isoton explosion. 

TUVOK: Fifty four, to be exact. 

KIM: What are we planning to do, blow up a small planet? 

TUVOK: I don't know. 

KIM: This warhead isn't standard issue. Who designed it, the Captain? 

JANEWAY: Mister Kim, you ask too many questions. Change of plans, Gentlemen. Increase the charge to eighty isotons. 

TUVOK: Aye, Captain. 

JANEWAY: Harry, when you're done here, give B'Elanna a hand with the shuttlecraft. She's reinforcing the hull. 

KIM: Right. Ensign Hickman thinks it's Species eight four seven two. 

TUVOK: Pardon me? 

KIM: That's his theory. There's an opening in fluidic space, and Captain Janeway has to shut it down. Want to know what I think? 

TUVOK: No. 

KIM: I think there's a type six protostar out there, and the Captain's planning on detonating it and opening up a wormhole to the Alpha Quadrant. In theory, it's possible, and because she doesn't want to get our hopes up, she's not telling anybody. 

TUVOK: Then I wouldn't suggest getting your hopes up. 

KIM: Then what do you think it is? 

TUVOK: I do not engage in idle speculation. 

KIM: Come on, Tuvok, aren't you curious? 

TUVOK: Yes, but we have a task at hand. The phase modulator.

WORF: A tribble. 

ODO: Sit down. You're drawing attention. 

WORF: Where did you get that thing? 

ODO: From a man named Cyrano Jones. He told me tribbles like everyone, but this one doesn't seem to like you. 

WORF: The feeling's! The feeling's mutual. They are detestable creatures. 

ODO: Interesting. It's been my observation that most humanoids love soft,
furry animals especially if they make pleasing sounds. 

WORF: They do nothing but consume food and breed. If you feed that thing more than the smallest morsel, in a few hours you'll have ten tribbles then a hundred then a thousand. 

ODO: Calm down. 

WORF: They were once considered mortal enemies of the Klingon Empire. 

ODO: This? A mortal enemy of the Empire? 

WORF: They were an ecological menace, a plague to be wiped out. 

ODO: Wiped out? What are you saying? 

WORF: Hundreds of warriors were sent to track them down throughout the galaxy. An armada obliterated the Tribbles' homeworld. By the end of the twenty third century they had been eradicated. 

ODO: Another glorious chapter of Klingon history. Tell me, do they still sing songs of the great tribble hunt?

[Ten forward]

(Wesley and Data are playing 3D chess. Outside is a field of planetary fragments) 

WESLEY: This was the final battle, wasn't it? 

DATA: Neither side intended Orelious Nine to be the decisive conflict. 

WESLEY: There's not much left, is there. 

DATA: The destruction is remarkable considering the primitive weapons of the period.

I have no clue as to what you're talking about.

How many times do ships crash into planet in Star Trek? I can only think of three
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Ship_(episode)

No. The worst of Trek tends to violently rape physics and even basic logic. See Voyager and several episodes of TNG, TOS, and ENT. Hell, probably DS9 too. Star Trek, when consistently written well, circumvents physics due to the problems that it would otherwise imply. Phasers are one, warp is another, and transporters are yet another.

I am not saying that there is no known way of enhancing something like say, antimatter. But if you're not even going to use anything close to realistic, then you might as well say "magic" or simply make up jargon words.

They didn't. And when they did mess up antimatter, it was done out of ignorance of the scientific material, not because their vision was to have their antimatter work differently.

Anti-matter was a fairly well known substance by the time Star Trek was made.

My understanding is that they used phasers and disruptors because they knew lasers couldn't do what they wanted.

Of course there's a reason. It just isn't scientifically accurate due to the lack of existence of subspace. But it is logical, reasonably well explained, and consistent.

That in no way contradicts my argument, but you need to provide evidence about sub-space doing what you claim.

None, not really. We are however, given clear story limitations in regards to actual physical limitations of these ships. That being, that their ships can't simply push small planetoids out of the way with their tractor beams or their deflector dish. That is a direct contradiction to one or two jargon quotes of energy that rival's God's uppercut.

Stop being vague, and back up your points.. Why should a Bugatti Veyron be expected to work well as a tow truck?

Deja Q still ruins your argument. This is really just getting silly now. You can't seriously be arguing planet busting firepower for phaser banks and photon torpedoes.

Except it supports my argument. The Enterprise-D had no trouble generating enough power/energy to move the moon in question.

PICARD [OC]: Back where it belongs? 

LAFORGE: We'd need to apply a delta vee of about four kilometres per second. Even with warp power to the tractor beam, it would mean exceeding recommended impulse engine output by at least forty-seven percent. It'd be like

[Bridge]

LAFORGE [OC]: An ant pushing a tricycle. A slim chance at best.

AFORGE [OC]: Not without burning out the tractor beam emitter. The circuits are already beyond the thermal limit. 

DATA: Delta vee is ninety two metres per second. The mass is too great. We are having an effect but it is negligible.

The problem wasn't power. The problem was figuring out how to use the power in a way that would achieve their objective, an objective the Enterprise-D was not designed to do. You are arguing that a Bugatti Veyron's windshield wipers or head lights should be able to make use of all of the engines power just as easily and directly as the wheels, and on top of that Impulse engines don't use the warp core for power.

Navigational deflectors(and likely combat shields) don't seem to work the way you think they do anyway. You'll notice that after getting the whales on board the ship Kirk went to warp in Earth's atmosphere with no noticeable effect similarly to what is describe in Titan's turn, and in the Year of Hell we see navigational deflectors deflect things approaching Voyager from the sides.

You harp about ships not flying through planets, but why would they even want to or try?

_-_-_-_-_-_-_

The fact of the matter is Star Trek ships commonly use gravitational distortions to move. This may actually be why warp is inconsistent. Space is not flat, but wavy like the ocean. The waves are gravity.

SHELBY: What about the heavy graviton beam we were talking about?

LAFORGE: I've gone over it four times. The local field distortion just wouldn't be strong enough to incapacitate them.

MARTOK: Where are they? 

KOLANA: Their warp signatures are bearing directly astern. They're Jem'Hadar fighters and they appear to be pursuing us. 

MARTOK: How can that be? 

WORF: The lead ship is using some kind of long range tachyon scanner to penetrate our cloaks. 

SYNON: Does the Dominion possess such a device? 

MARTOK: They do now. 

WORF: How many ships? 

KOLANA: I've identified ten vessels so far, and they're gaining on us. 

WORF: How long before we are within their weapons range? 

KOLANA: Two hours, twelve minutes. 

MARTOK: Helm, have you located the Defiant? 

SYNON: Yes, sir. They're waiting for us in the Kalandra sector, with seven Federation starships. It will take us three hours, forty five minutes to reach them. 

WORF: If the Jem'Hadar could be forced to drop out of warp for only ten minutes, they would not have time to catch up with us before we rendezvous with the Defiant. 

MARTOK: A fine theory, but how do we execute it? 

WORF: We could disrupt their warp fields with an inverse graviton burst. It would force them to drop to impulse until the gravitons dissipated. 

KOLANA: We would need to generate a massive burst to disrupt the warp fields of a fleet that size. 

WORF: A single bird of prey could do it by diverting warp power to the main deflector. 

MARTOK: How long would that delay them? 

KOLANA: They could reinitialise their warp cores in less than two minutes. 

WORF: If I could engage them in battle while they're still at impulse, that would delay them even longer. I know I could do it. 

MARTOK: What do you mean, you could do it? 

WORF: The Orantho's Captain and First Officer are dead, and the Slivin's deflector is damaged. It cannot generate a graviton burst. And the Ning'tao's Captain is too young and inexperienced. I am the logical choice. 

MARTOK: But Worf, this means that you'd be sacrificing the entire crew of the Ning'tao. 

WORF: I have thought about that. We could beam most of the crew over before I

[sonofccn]

You forgot to highlight the the part of your quote that says that the asteroid has shields, and missed the part about the asteroid being armored with a fictional substance called rodinium.

Neither as a matter of fact, such items were immaterial to my argument. Namely the bringing up being a mile deep beneath nearly solid iron which, under the firepower you advocate, would be like saying your beneath a layer of bubble wrap. Instead, if a mile worth of iron was of such meager protection it could be compared to a soap bubble, Hansen would have spoken of how they did such damage through his Rodinium armor even through his shields/deflectors.

That is hardly a mundane object

The asteriod has funky qualities I won't deny however unless you are saying it is several times harder to destroy than a Earth like planet, as you posulate a 23rd century ship should be able to easily destroy much less a 24th century one, whatever the exact figure it is still below what you claim for a starship.

First off we have no idea as to what they expected the planet to be made out of.

Same as Earth? There is zero reasons to assume the Founder's world was somehow built of super undestroyable matter.

Secondly the entire thing was a trap, and we can't know how reliable their data was.

Doesn't matter if it was a trap or not. No one was incredious at the concept of needing a fleet to destroy a planet or that the opening salvo didn't vaporize the entire rock. They can't all be changling agents.

This calls a number of things into question such as if the time table was created by a changeling to give them an advantage.

A time table which had to be believable.

Thirdly the results of the bombardment and the computer projections don't match up at all.

No they don't but for my purposes I don't need them too. Taking the most extreme and generous interpetation, junking the visuals and the previous projections and assuming the damage percentage refered to the entire planet not just the crust and that it was being completely vaporized is still an example magnitudes below what a single starship should be outputing as per your interepetations of firepower.

The event can't be quantified because of a large number of unknowns, and the fact that the Dominion was purposely feeding false data.

You post a quote showing that immeditly when the facts don't add up, lifeforms not dying from the bombardment, they, Tain and Garak, immeditly figure something is up yet presume two veteran Obsidian order agents, much less the crews of the twenty warships, don't know the rough order of magnitude of the firepower for their own vessels or find nothing amiss with ships using 1/1000th of their firepower.

[Lucky]

Neither as a matter of fact, such items were immaterial to my argument. Namely the bringing up being a mile deep beneath nearly solid iron which, under the firepower you advocate, would be like saying your beneath a layer of bubble wrap. Instead, if a mile worth of iron was of such meager protection it could be compared to a soap bubble, Hansen would have spoken of how they did such damage through his Rodinium armor even through his shields/deflectors.

Why ignore the fact that Star Fleet didn't think the abnormally huge hunk of solid iron was not up to the task of providing protection for the star base? The plasma torpedo went through the shields, the unquantifiable armor, and then miles of iron. StarwarsStartrek was banded for this sort of thing. You can't ignore things you don't want to be there.

The NX-01's protonic torpedos would have been more then a match for a few miles of iron, and that ship had anemic weapons, and Kirk's Enterprise could only take the firepower you suggest when shields were up anyway.

The asteriod has funky qualities I won't deny however unless you are saying it is several times harder to destroy than a Earth like planet, as you posulate a 23rd century ship should be able to easily destroy much less a 24th century one, whatever the exact figure it is still below what you claim for a starship.

We are talking about artificial construct or neutronium levels of exotic, or ungodly huge.

You also seem to forget Riker only cared about destroying the Pegasus inside the asteroid. He didn't give a smurf about destroying the asteroid.

Same as Earth? There is zero reasons to assume the Founder's world was somehow built of super undestroyable matter.

There is no reason to assume that a planet would have the same make up as Earth.

You are forgetting that the objective of the bombardment was not the destruction of the planet, but the destruction of a race of shape shifters who can easily survive in space, and even transform into warp capable creatures. Just turing the planet into an asteroid field wouldn't be good enough.

Doesn't matter if it was a trap or not. No one was incredious at the concept of needing a fleet to destroy a planet or that the opening salvo didn't vaporize the entire rock. They can't all be changling agents.

Actually it does matters a lot. We know they could do what they planned to do, but we don't know if they actually needed to. The mission was compromised from the start.

You keep ignoring inconvenient details. The objective of the bombardment in TDIC was to destroy the great link. The great link is composed of a race of shape shifter who are not bothered by the vacuum of space, and can ever transform into warp capable life forms.

TDIC and Pegasus are not the clear examples you are looking for.

A time table which had to be believable.

Changelings had infiltrated the operation at its highest level.

Changelings let the original data be taken.

It almost sounds like the Changelings planned the events in "The Die Is Cast" from the start.

No they don't but for my purposes I don't need them too. Taking the most extreme and generous interpetation, junking the visuals and the previous projections and assuming the damage percentage refered to the entire planet not just the crust and that it was being completely vaporized is still an example magnitudes below what a single starship should be outputing as per your interepetations of firepower.

You need them to be trying to destroy the planet as quickly as possible in The Die Is Cast, but the only target is the Founders who might survive a planet being turned into an asteroid field.

You post a quote showing that immeditly when the facts don't add up, lifeforms not dying from the bombardment, they, Tain and Garak, immeditly figure something is up yet presume two veteran Obsidian order agents, much less the crews of the twenty warships, don't know the rough order of magnitude of the firepower for their own vessels or find nothing amiss with ships using 1/1000th of their firepower.

IF they had been trying to blow up the planet you might have a point about low firepower. The planet was just collateral damage.

I'm not sure why you are harping on fire power though since the warp drive and navigational deflectors are always on to some degree, and that means the warp core's output can never be fully channeled into weapons systems on Federation ships like you are claiming it can be.. There are some rather silly things I could drag out if I was doing anything more then playing devil advocate, and forcing you to actual come up with evidence.

So how long after the first volley did it take for them something was wrong? It seemed they found out as quickly as they could read the sensors. as long as it took them to read the newest sensor after the first volley ended.

[sonofccn]

Why ignore the fact that Star Fleet didn't think the abnormally huge hunk of solid iron was not up to the task of providing protection for the star base?

I do not ignore it nor have I argued that Star Fleet thought a mile worth of nearly solid iron was by itself up to the task of defending the outpost. I have stated that the officer onboard the outpost, whom we may consider more of an expert than either of us, brought up that he was beneath solid iron as part of his incrediousness at the damage wrought to his outpost by the Romulan ship. Clearly he expected the iron to offer some protection, how much in relation to his deflector screens we can't know nor have I attempted to make a guess, which violates your idea of starship firepower.

The NX-01's protonic torpedos would have been more then a match for a few miles of iron

[Armoury]

REED: Photonic torpedoes. Their range is over fifty times greater than our conventional torpedoes, and they have a variable yield. They can knock the comm. array off a shuttlepod without scratching the hull or they can put a three kilometre crater into an asteroid.

This is the only refrence I know of involving photonic torpedoes and it involes a 1.8 wide crater into an asteriod but doesn't go into how deep of a pit this would gouge. We also don't have a statement that this is a "nearly solid iron" asteriod. Now granted it likely wouldn't take too many to shatter/pulverize a 2 plus mile wide asteriod, iron or otherwise, but we are far and away from a single shot from a single weapon punching its way through or mass scattering it as should be expected from your view of firepower.

and Kirk's Enterprise could only take the firepower you suggest when shields were up anyway.

I'm afraid you lost me. I don't mention Kirk's Enterprise anywhere in what you quoted.

We are talking about artificial construct or neutronium levels of exotic, or ungodly huge.

Please elaborate. Or the work you did to reach neutronium levels of denisty, which indeed would be a very special asteriod.

You also seem to forget Riker only cared about destroying the Pegasus inside the asteroid. He didn't give a smurf about destroying the asteroid.

Yes he wanted to destroy the Pegasus and to do so he wanted to simply blast the asteriod to space dust and stated it would take most of their torpedoes to do so. And if Riker was off in his calcuations by a couple of hundred torpedoes to blow up the asteriod someone would have mentioned it.

There is no reason to assume that a planet would have the same make up as Earth.

There is every reason to assume the planet has the same mundan building material as any terrestial world theoryized to exist in our galaxy such as Earth. No reason to assume it is composed out of uber material that can take death star yields.

You are forgetting that the objective of the bombardment was not the destruction of the planet, but the destruction of a race of shape shifters who can easily survive in space, and even transform into warp capable creatures. Just turing the planet into an asteroid field wouldn't be good enough.

Except that was the plan.

[Warbird Bridge]

LOVOK: We know that the Founders' planet lies at approximately these coordinates within the Omarion nebula. As you can see, there are no Jem'Hadar bases nearby. This means that even if the Founders did send out a distress call, it would take at least seven hours for any help to arrive.
TAIN: Our plan is to wait until we've entered orbit of the Founders' planet, then decloak and begin massive bombardment.
LOVOK: Computer analysis indicates that the planet's crust will be destroyed within one hour, and the mantle within five.
GARAK: That should more than take care of the Founders.

For my purposes I don't care if this plan would actually have killed a single Founder, their stated plan and goal was to blast the planet and burn it down to its molten core. That is their goal and they are not firing special anti-founder munitions or trying any fancy subspace marlarky trying to flip the polarity or anything. Their entire plan is to shoot the planet and even using 20 ships they couldn't mass scatter it and would require minutes if not hours to even burn it down to its core.

Actually it does matters a lot. We know they could do what they planned to do, but we don't know if they actually needed to. The mission was compromised from the start.

No as I have demostrated both Tain and Garak were aware and approved of the stated mission of burning the Founder homeworld to its core. They believed this would most effectivly kill Founders and turning the planet into a debris field ala Alderaan would only have been a greater boon and would have been done if they had the capability. Since neither critized Lovok for dialing down his weapons to 1000th power we can safely conclude even 20 ships can't blow a planet to a debris field in a single go.

Changelings had infiltrated the operation at its highest level.

Neither Tain nor Garack were changelins nor can it be reasonbly assumed everyone else on all 20 ships were changelings. Everyone involved found the time table believable. So it doesn't matter that Lovok is a changeling or that the entire thing was a Founder plot, the core thing is when presented with the idea it took 20 ships to even begin destroying a planet no one batted an eyelash at it.

It almost sounds like the Changelings planned the events in "The Die Is Cast" from the start.

Yes...the entire thing was a preplanned operation to cripple the obsidian order/Tal'shiar due to the resources they comitted to the operation. I have never denied or argued otherwise merely that their lies had to be believable.

You need them to be trying to destroy the planet as quickly as possible in The Die Is Cast, but the only target is the Founders who might survive a planet being turned into an asteroid field.

Except destroying the planet is the entire lynchpin of their plan. Out of curiousity have you seen TDIC?

IF they had been trying to blow up the planet you might have a point about low firepower. The planet was just collateral damage.

But their plan was to blow up the planet, or the nearest they could manage, to destroy the founders. Speed would only have helped such as simply firing a single beam and blowing the entire world up.

I'm not sure why you are harping on fire power though since the warp drive and navigational deflectors are always on to some degree, and that means the warp core's output can never be fully channeled into weapons systems on Federation ships like you are claiming it can be..

Because you have claimed a Connie can tank death star level firepower. Because the Connie can be damaged/defeated by contempories or later craft impling comparable yields.

There are some rather silly things I could drag out if I was doing anything more then playing devil advocate, and forcing you to actual come up with evidence.

So wait. Are you or are you not seriously advocating death star level shields/firepower for Connie ships and above?

So how long after the first volley did it take for them something was wrong? It seemed they found out as quickly as they could read the sensors

About as long as it took them to notice biosigns weren't dropping. As opposed to the 30% of planetary crust being destroyed which should have raised an eyebrow or two if using 20 ships each of which individually should be able to easily defeat a Connie. Hence my argument, when the facts didn't add up they immeditely realized something was up yet you contend they just ignored an entire plan which would have greviously misused and miscalculated the alleged power they had at their disposal.

[Trinoya]

Just to let everyone in this thread know, I'm watching it, since I've received some reports. As such if you intend to present an argument please provide your evidence, and also lets keep level heads. No significant transgressions have occurred so let this just be a general notice to everyone just so we can make sure things stay cool and level folks. ^_^