General Warning Tally for users...

[mojo]

at least i deserved some form of punishment, though, ksw doesn't even seem to have been trolling when he was banned. he seems to have been banned for refusing to back down. more than once, he was told to produce evidence or concede a point, when he had already admitted earlier in the thread that all he had was speculation, but was sure he was right.

it's a good thing i WAS banned when that was going on because i'll tell you, i certainly would be permbanned by now. it was ridiculous, there was a total lack of transparency, and everyone laughed and joked about it being a good thing.

we were wrong about swst, and this current state of affairs is a direct result of the pressure some of us have been applying for years in an effort to get rid of one troll. it was not worth it. in my opinion we should be on our knees apologizing to JMS and begging him to come back, which i admit openly is exactly what i've been doing.

i did not like the yub nub link. i like this one better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aes7spqLiN8

[Praeothmin]

mojo, KSW's usual response when someone requested some evidence for his extravagant theories?
"But I gave you the evidence, if you're not bright enough to understand, it's not my problem..."

That's a clear insult, and against the rules...
If he'd said something like:
"Well, I concede I have no evidence, and this is really just a pet theory of mine" then all would have been fine...

[Mr. Oragahn]

JMS would never have allowed either of those actions and everyone here knows it.

He would have not allowed the permaban of SWST either. However I'm in agreement that the board went through such a tempest that we may have lost something alongside the long arguments to decide what to do.
KSW, for him, it really seems that he was becoming needlessly obnoxious. In fact I know that he rarely kept his nerves in check and rarely posted in a relaxed way. The most I remember from him is getting confrontational for nothing at all, and adopting a tone which was just encouraging other posters to react badly.

we were wrong about swst, and this current state of affairs is a direct result of the pressure some of us have been applying for years in an effort to get rid of one troll. it was not worth it. in my opinion we should be on our knees apologizing to JMS and begging him to come back, which i admit openly is exactly what i've been doing.

i did not like the yub nub link. i like this one better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aes7spqLiN8

False dilemma. Now shut up and enjoy your reduced and quite fragile liberty here. >:]

[mojo]

it doesn't become a false dilemma just because someone says it is.
ksw wasn't in the same league as swst. ksw believed everything he said and simply was not able to debate without getting riled up. as if the rest of us can. his permaban was ridiculous.

i have provided evidence and arguments which have been ignored and which will probably continue to be ignored. this place is being run by a mod who can't even be bothered to keep up with the 5-10 posts a day the board averages. i can provide evidence of that as well. he bans people and admits it was a temper tantrum, blames his continuing inability to moderate swst on me until someone else bans him for him and then can't even be bothered to deal with the aftermath, he ignores board policy and abuses emergency powers while constantly claiming that his lack of strict moderation and use of such powers when they would make sense is because he's worried about showing bias and the possibility the board might look like sdn. oh, you mean like banning people because they believe things contrary to the popular beliefs of the board and refuse to back down when we toss out their ideas because they don't have concrete evidence backing them in a debate based entirely on fan speculation?
the fact that ksw was banned before swst is an absolute travesty, and the fact that mike went after ksw AND THEN STILL refused to go after swst shows that priorities are so far out of wack i don't know why i even bother to continue typing.

and yet we have oragahn & company claiming that my issues with mike's moderation are baseless and unjustified. don't tell me to shut up and enjoy the board. i used to enjoy the board, when it was sfj. i don't know what the fuck it is now, but i can tell you that my concern over the fact that mike will inevitably permaban me is definitely waning. i'm not sure he'll even have to bother.

[Khas]

KSW wasn't banned for fan speculation. He was banned because he assumed that his baseless theories were canon, and insulted everybody when they asked for evidence.

[mojo]

except that in recent memory he had blatantly admitted that his theories were speculation and without evidence. you're ignoring what i'm saying to continue believing ksw deserved what he got. i've said it four times now: he admitted it was speculation and admitted he was without concrete evidence. when he still refused to back down, he was banned. stop pretending it was some other way.

[mojo]

it's not as if ksw was some friend of mine. i butted heads with him over the canon status of changes to the star wars saga, hard. oragahn had to come in and end the argument because i was starting to snap on him. i personally think the guy is a little unhinged, and that's fucking saying something, coming from me.

but not wanting him to come to my birthday party doesn't stop me from recognizing the fact that he got fucked over.

[Mike DiCenso]

What Khas said. I went pretty easy on KSW when he came back under his latest sockpuppet account because he seemed to be doing all right, and as you said, he admitted he had nothing but baseless speculation. It's when KSW started becoming abusive again as well as ignore other people's evidence, that couldn't be allowed to stand.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

it doesn't become a false dilemma just because someone says it is.
ksw wasn't in the same league as swst. ksw believed everything he said and simply was not able to debate without getting riled up. as if the rest of us can. his permaban was ridiculous.

I'm pushing you. KSW was banned because he ran at 200% against a rule which was very important to JMS, which was to be respectful and polite. Being convinced isn't a good enough excuse to insult people.
Now, since the warning system is a bit opaque, it's hard to count one member's total warnings and bans without being a mod so I don't know how hard KSW had already been previously smacked, although I don't recall him getting that many bans beforehand. In light of that, if my impression is correct, I concur that the permaban could have been too hard.

i have provided evidence and arguments which have been ignored and which will probably continue to be ignored. this place is being run by a mod who can't even be bothered to keep up with the 5-10 posts a day the board averages. i can provide evidence of that as well. he bans people and admits it was a temper tantrum, blames his continuing inability to moderate swst on me until someone else bans him for him and then can't even be bothered to deal with the aftermath, he ignores board policy and abuses emergency powers while constantly claiming that his lack of strict moderation and use of such powers when they would make sense is because he's worried about showing bias and the possibility the board might look like sdn. oh, you mean like banning people because they believe things contrary to the popular beliefs of the board and refuse to back down when we toss out their ideas because they don't have concrete evidence backing them in a debate based entirely on fan speculation?
the fact that ksw was banned before swst is an absolute travesty, and the fact that mike went after ksw AND THEN STILL refused to go after swst shows that priorities are so far out of wack i don't know why i even bother to continue typing.

The main difference being the transparency, the politeness and actually, the real strength of the arguments. We mask nothing, it's all available. SDN, on the other hand, has done the exact contrary.
Here, everyone had his chance, but it's obvious that if you come and defend the ICS, there'll be like a huge wall of vocal opposition to deal with. The problem is that except for a few fanatics, it's absolutely clear that the Saxton'd ICSes and other books he partook in are a joke.
Now are you saying that we weren't damn fair with SWST, and that our evidence against nearly all of his points in "favour" (if we can call it that) of SW weren't properly dealt with?

and yet we have oragahn & company claiming that my issues with mike's moderation are baseless and unjustified. don't tell me to shut up and enjoy the board.

It wasn't a command. It wasn't serious either.
And you know very well how I feel about the whole moderation fiasco. You can check the threads in the technical forum. Aside from the fact that I think you went too far with the ad hominem thread violating Mike's privacy (and I don't think anyone gave you a greenlight for that very transgressive topic), I supported you for the rest. I never rejected the reasons of why you and some others snapped.
Now let's just stop it there. You're back. There are two mods now, even if Mike has an issue with you Trinoya will have his own opinion that will matter. Plus permabans should be a very rare thing. Also, SWST is finally totally busted, and perhaps we may get KSW back and hope he chills close to maximum entropy so we can all benefit from his interesting remarks.
And yes, KSW deserves the right to defend his case. I can't believe SWST was given so much leeway and even had the gall to provoke the board in this very subforum by claiming that he had changed and that we weren't fair, while KSW can't do a thing about that.
With more transparency, things will return to normal and we will able to enjoy SFJN as it was before.

[Mr. Oragahn]

except that in recent memory he had blatantly admitted that his theories were speculation and without evidence. you're ignoring what i'm saying to continue believing ksw deserved what he got. i've said it four times now: he admitted it was speculation and admitted he was without concrete evidence. when he still refused to back down, he was banned. stop pretending it was some other way.

Aside from the random posts where all that I could see through a cursory look was him yelling at others and being irritating, when did he claim that his theories on topics x, y and z were much speculation?
And, from there, why did that not end the debate and why did it devolve into another mud slinging contest?

Look, in the recent Mass Effect against pre-UFP Trek, I had to admit that I had no evidence of long ranges for torpedoes despite the fact that science and logic should give them ample range. So I abandoned the claim of superior ranges. Same went for the torpedo shields. I split my position as if the there are shields then A, if there aren't, then B. And it ended well, despite Stargazer being a bit bruising.

[Mr. Oragahn]

What Khas said. I went pretty easy on KSW when he came back under his latest sockpuppet account because he seemed to be doing all right, and as you said, he admitted he had nothing but baseless speculation. It's when KSW started becoming abusive again as well as ignore other people's evidence, that couldn't be allowed to stand.
-Mike

Oh yeah, crap, I forgot about KSW's sockpuppet accounts. No, that's truly totally bad, mojo. It's really not excusable. You had some, but it was nothing serious and very transparent. We were all having a bit of fun with those in fact. KSW used them to get around sanctions.

[Praeothmin]

Yeah, KSW was just as bad as SWST IMO, because like SWST, he never provided evidence for his BS, ignored evidence that was brought up by other posters, and, more iportantly, unlike SWST, he resorted to insults when people kept demanding for evidence of what he brought up...
And he had been at it for far longer, plus he used sock accounts to evade bans...
Yeah, KSW was the epitome of the good debater, he was just prone to temper tantrums...

I don't think so...

[sonofccn]

Add me to the bandwagon. While I do think SWST was a bigger nusiance KSW more than quallified with his behavior for his punishment.

[TheRainKing777]

THAT IS NOT ME!

We know, it's written notmojo. So it's notyou.

Your logic is sound.

[mojo]

What Khas said. I went pretty easy on KSW when he came back under his latest sockpuppet account because he seemed to be doing all right, and as you said, he admitted he had nothing but baseless speculation. It's when KSW started becoming abusive again as well as ignore other people's evidence, that couldn't be allowed to stand.
-Mike

alright, i stayed away from here for a while because i wanted to make sure i could stay calm.

What Khas said. I went pretty easy on KSW when he came back under his latest sockpuppet account because he seemed to be doing all right,

it's interesting that you did that, considering the fact that you mention it so that, right at the beginning, you're already justified in banning him. yes, sockpuppeting is against the rules. i can't argue that, god knows. but you ONLY enforce that rule when you find it necessary to back up other, less serious infractions. you did the same thing to me six months ago, using a case of sockpuppeting which was so nefarious that other staff joined in on the joke as justification for a ridiculously long ban.

and as you said, he admitted he had nothing but baseless speculation.

i only copied this so i wouldn't have to go copypasta a bunch of examples for oragahn.

It's when KSW started becoming abusive again

how do we define abusive? is calling people trolls abusive?? it wasn't when praeothmin called swst a troll and you personally stated that when it was justified it wasn't abuse. so only staff is allowed to think someone is trolling? when he called me a troll, i was irritated because i knew that, in that rare instance, i was not actually trolling. that doesn't mean that he didn't believe i WAS trolling.

as well as ignore other people's evidence

did you really just say that? so it's against the rules to ignore other people's evidence? as swst has so often pointed out, it's difficult to prove that someone has even seen another person's evidence. but how about a case in which someone can be proven to have read a post filled with evidence because they actually respond to a single aspect of that post, but never ever actually respond to any of the rest? how about if they do it for literally years, not only ignoring evidence but the entire argument itself? there are PAGES of arguments i have backed up with evidence which you ignore while justifying your ban of ksw using the fact that he didn't always respond to evidence presented to him. do you not see how this is bullshit?

that couldn't be allowed to stand.

i agree. it's too bad you get to make the rules, and so stand outside of them.