I challenge darkstar to a debate

[sonofccn]

@ General Donner: And once again I thank you for answering and explaining SWST's argument.

The Sector army numbers I thought, and still think today, were just ridiculously low in the original sourcebook.

Possibly. But in its defense postulating two billion plus just for ground pounders, and just for the actualy army not STs IIRC, is higher than average for sci-fi writer's scale. Personally I took it as the Empire lightly garrisoning its worlds, say the capitol to keep local authority in line, and holding the rest in "reserve" to drop kick anyone who openly challenged it. But admittedly I do have a vested interest in "downgrading" the Empire. :)

But it we could ignore that bit of colossal idiocy, SWST would have a legitimate point on this issue.

Setting the clone wars aside for the moment it would still require some work in order to fit in with G-canon in my opinion. The trillions for the old Republic from the AOTC novel for instances, made harder since maps like this suggests the core systems form the lion's share of the galactic population. Obviously C-canon attaches a higher galactic population, one which could more easily support tens of trillions of soldiers, but one which my lack of knowledge on the subject leaves me unclear on how well they can be reconciled.

[General Donner]

@ General Donner: And once again I thank you for answering and explaining SWST's argument.

You're welcome. I was really into the WEG material back in the good, old days, so those are the ones I know best.

Possibly. But in its defense postulating two billion plus just for ground pounders, and just for the actualy army not STs IIRC, is higher than average for sci-fi writer's scale.

Well, it's better than BattleTech, at any rate... Though that isn't really saying much.

Personally I took it as the Empire lightly garrisoning its worlds, say the capitol to keep local authority in line, and holding the rest in "reserve" to drop kick anyone who openly challenged it. But admittedly I do have a vested interest in "downgrading" the Empire. :)

I think that's what the WEG sourcebooks implied also, actually. Standard Imperial MO for peaceful planets was to appoint a planetary governor to liaise with the local government, and the local Imperial garrison (about 3,000 military personnel IIRC, including support arms) would essentially be his embassy guard detachment. At least in theory, the majority of the forces on a given planet would be locals, under the control of the planetary government. A governor who had to assume direct control of the planet generally had to call for reinforcements from offworld, unless they complied with it. (I believe there was at least one reference to a rebellious planet that had the equivalent of a sector army deployed on it, though that was considered somewhat exceptional.)

In many novels and other EU materials, though, that model was disregarded in favor of an all-Imperial "federal" military presence that was essentially an occupation force. Probably, the authors didn't feel the softer approach the WEG writers envisioned was tyrannical enough for the evil galactic empire.

(Presumably for similar reasons, or maybe just laziness, the Imperial Army was generally ignored as well in the novels, and only stormtroopers were used. While WEG considered them the standard ground forces, stormies being instead something more like a Waffen-SS or Soviet-style Internal Guards political soldiery. Notably the army guys were just ordinary people doing their job, conscripts in some cases, and weren't wearing face-covering masks or the like.)

Setting the clone wars aside for the moment it would still require some work in order to fit in with G-canon in my opinion. The trillions for the old Republic from the AOTC novel for instances, made harder since maps like this suggests the core systems form the lion's share of the galactic population. Obviously C-canon attaches a higher galactic population, one which could more easily support tens of trillions of soldiers, but one which my lack of knowledge on the subject leaves me unclear on how well they can be reconciled.

WEG population numbers for the late Old Republic (in the decades or so immediately before the rise of the Empire) were circa 100 quadrillions, per the basic rulebook. (I believe that number is also repeated more recently in the Atlas.) So even tens or hundreds of trillions of troops would actually be quite less militarization per capita for them than there is in, say, the modern-day peacetime United States. But then again, the Imperial military is also stated to use droids for much of the non-combat drudgework for their armed forces that we early 21st-century Terrans still need bodies in uniforms for, so that wouldn't necessarily be a problem. And even less when we factor in that the Imperial military would almost exclusively employ only humans or near-human species, who at best make up a majority of the Galactic population.

If the Republic had only trillions (single-digit) citizens per a novelization, then obviously tens of trillions of military personnel would be unworkable for a population base of that size. That would then suggest that the Republic, and/or Empire expanded quite dramatically in the decades following on EPII. Even if they maintain the equivalent of WWII-level Soviet mobilization in peacetime. It also obviously doesn't work with the WEG numbers for total population, unless we make some fairly drastic assumptions.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The "trillions" reference comes from an RPG book, one of the small, square hardbacks in the final edition of the D20 game from Wizards of the Coast. The relevant quote, I believe, would be:

The Imperial military is a massive organization, with tens of trillions of regular army soldiers, trillions of fleet crew, and a vast force of stormtroopers both cloned and conditioned. The sheer weight of numbers enables the Empire to simply overwhelm opponents in head-to-head battle.

The Sector army numbers I thought, and still think today, were just ridiculously low in the original sourcebook. It posited that a Sector (which will generally contain dozens of planets, on the low end) had a total army strength of only between two and four "systems armies" (which were supposedly the systems level of deployment, just above a standard multi-corps "army"). That still looks odd, and I'd personally think trillions is a better number. It works as a ret-con, if nothing else.

Of course, nowadays we have that retarded cartoon instead as higher canon, which thinks every one of the planets in the Republic should have a garrison of half a trooper or so apiece. Which is one reason (among several) why I don't bother debating for Wars much any more. But it we could ignore that bit of colossal idiocy, SWST would have a legitimate point on this issue.

There would be other EU sources pointing at mere million clonetroopers.
Clonetroopers are best seen as a specialized assault force.
It's true that WEG did treat the stormies as a specialized forces, and there are comics (not that old) which do show more of the Imperial Army in action.
Thing is, if one is going to debate SW, then he'll have to deal with Lucas' vision, that is all. It may suck, but then that's the risk of it.
It is true that Lucas really has a weird vision which he doesn't want to clarify much.
We therefore have to think that if 5 million clones can really bankrupt the OR. It means each clone unit is absurdly expensive. Oddly enough, it kinda intersects with the numbers I got in the "Strong Economy" thread, where saves on the HoloNet would easily rack up in the multi-billions for minutes of comms (click here), leading to theoretical figures worth 12,623,040 bn Imperial Credits a year.
That amount of money saved, or quite a large portion of it at least, allowed the Empire, at a time when it was still massively growing and using clones, to create many of them, on the order of millions of troopers within half a year!
I love how the clonetroopers were supposedly grown as meatbags, expandable in spirit, yet ludicrously expensive, pointing to one single clone unit being worth several billions. They almost cost more than a single +1 km warship.

[Lucky]

The "trillions" reference comes from an RPG book, one of the small, square hardbacks in the final edition of the D20 game from Wizards of the Coast. The relevant quote, I believe, would be:

The Imperial military is a massive organization, with tens of trillions of regular army soldiers, trillions of fleet crew, and a vast force of stormtroopers both cloned and conditioned. The sheer weight of numbers enables the Empire to simply overwhelm opponents in head-to-head battle.

The Sector army numbers I thought, and still think today, were just ridiculously low in the original sourcebook. It posited that a Sector (which will generally contain dozens of planets, on the low end) had a total army strength of only between two and four "systems armies" (which were supposedly the systems level of deployment, just above a standard multi-corps "army"). That still looks odd, and I'd personally think trillions is a better number. It works as a ret-con, if nothing else.

Of course, nowadays we have that retarded cartoon instead as higher canon, which thinks every one of the planets in the Republic should have a garrison of half a trooper or so apiece. Which is one reason (among several) why I don't bother debating for Wars much any more. But it we could ignore that bit of colossal idiocy, SWST would have a legitimate point on this issue.

There would be other EU sources pointing at mere million clonetroopers.
Clonetroopers are best seen as a specialized assault force.
It's true that WEG did treat the stormies as a specialized forces, and there are comics (not that old) which do show more of the Imperial Army in action.
Thing is, if one is going to debate SW, then he'll have to deal with Lucas' vision, that is all. It may suck, but then that's the risk of it.
It is true that Lucas really has a weird vision which he doesn't want to clarify much.
We therefore have to think that if 5 million clones can really bankrupt the OR. It means each clone unit is absurdly expensive. Oddly enough, it kinda intersects with the numbers I got in the "Strong Economy" thread, where saves on the HoloNet would easily rack up in the multi-billions for minutes of comms (click here), leading to theoretical figures worth 12,623,040 bn Imperial Credits a year.
That amount of money saved, or quite a large portion of it at least, allowed the Empire, at a time when it was still massively growing and using clones, to create many of them, on the order of millions of troopers within half a year!
I love how the clonetroopers were supposedly grown as meatbags, expandable in spirit, yet ludicrously expensive, pointing to one single clone unit being worth several billions. They almost cost more than a single +1 km warship.

I've always assumed that the cost of the clones included weapons, armor, ships, and that sort of thing. It makes the price much more reasonable, but still should not bankrupt the Republic in any case.

[sonofccn]

Well, it's better than BattleTech, at any rate... Though that isn't really saying much.

Actually I was more selfishly thinking of my own pet franchise, best Trek has is millions on the front to the best of my recollection. :)

I think that's what the WEG sourcebooks implied also, actually....In many novels and other EU materials, though, that model was disregarded in favor of an all-Imperial "federal" military presence that was essentially an occupation force. Probably, the authors didn't feel the softer approach the WEG writers envisioned was tyrannical enough for the evil galactic empire.

Agreed. The stakes are higher when the evil tyranical regime is everywhere as well its easier to have your heroes shoot stormtroopers than say the local natives they are supposedly fighting on the behalf of.

Presumably for similar reasons, or maybe just laziness, the Imperial Army was generally ignored as well in the novels, and only stormtroopers were used.

Well, I'm guilty of that myself. Stormies are iconic what can I say, you remember them from the movies and you want to "see" them fighting the rebellion.

WEG population numbers for the late Old Republic (in the decades or so immediately before the rise of the Empire) were circa 100 quadrillions, per the basic rulebook. (I believe that number is also repeated more recently in the Atlas.)

Agreed, tens of trillions would be easily justifiable with the WEG/Atlas population even noting the Empire's questionable recuiting practices. And in and of itself I can go with that, beyond pestering SWST to provide his work and the like, like I said before space is big and most of those trillions are likely supply clerks and bored privates guarding latrines, because the Rebels could come and steal it otherwise ;-), so I can understand why we don't see them.

If the Republic had only trillions (single-digit) citizens per a novelization, then obviously tens of trillions of military personnel would be unworkable for a population base of that size. That would then suggest that the Republic, and/or Empire expanded quite dramatically in the decades following on EPII.Even if they maintain the equivalent of WWII-level Soviet mobilization in peacetime. It also obviously doesn't work with the WEG numbers for total population, unless we make some fairly drastic assumptions.

Yes, which is the sticket of it all. I don't like discarding evidence, except for a small volume of specific work which I feel win or lose the "VS debate" totally misses the "soul" of Star Wars, and I'm one of those guys who actually likes reading up on the background of a Verse almost as much as he likes stories set in it so I do apreciate the sourcebooks/ISB so its frustrating. Through I doubt it means much coming from a Trekkie like me. :)

But then again, the Imperial military is also stated to use droids for much of the non-combat drudgework for their armed forces that we early 21st-century Terrans still need bodies in uniforms for, so that wouldn't necessarily be a problem.

Droids are a nice feature, I could see a lot of fudging material in them. Say a society where most manual labor is performed by mechanical men able to meet the demands of the organic population easily, jobs that their are concetrated into the hands of protective and insular guilds, few prospects beyond running frieght, legal or otherwise, between worlds or otherwise on the fringes of society where unimaginative droids are not cost effective. It could turn what we consider stable conscription rates on its head, indeed a high rate could be seen as a stablizing act taking surplus "fodder" away from street gangs or smuggler organization and put them "to work". Sort of a New Deal but in space and with more lasers. Just my wild speculation of course, musings on the ramifications of relatively intelligent robots in the work force.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

[quote="Mr. Oragahn

Until you provide the evidence of trillions, I don't see anything beyond facts from the book. Oh yes, my god, I made a calculation.[/quote]

1. Your statement is a contradiction; the ‘proof’ is inherently evidence of tens of trillions of army soldiers and trillions of naval crew.
2. The WEG gives us statistics for the size of a sector fleet, and also gives us the number of sectors in the Empire; marginally above a thousand. Doing the math, we get figures in the millions.

The absolute retard only copies what he read in the official book.

You are absolutely correct. Which is why following the four-million-man army figure just because some books state it (and others go out of their way to contradict it) is stupid, when it is entirely impossible to logically justify there being four million men to fight a galactic war.

Similarly, your figures of hundreds of millions of stormtroopers…doesn’t work out at all. First, it violates my explicit canonical quote. Second, logically and logistically, hundreds of millions of stormtroopers would equate to only a few hundred stormtroopers being available to police each star system. Unless if stormies are extremely efficient (which we clearly see that they are not), the figure is impossible.

It IS the entire army of a sector.
It's not complicated. Globally there's the Navy, with its own troopers, then there's the Army, with troopers transported by some of their own ships but also a lot by the Navy, and there's the stormtroopers, working with both, but contrary to the former two, having no listed support personnel.

Yes. And your quotes, in respects to the sector army, are in direct contradiction with mine, which give the army tens of trillions of troopers, and the stormtroopers numbers surpassing that of both the army and the navy. The very apparent rationalization is that the totality of the stormtroopers corp/imperial army extends far beyond these horribly understated “sector armies”.

A sector army would be concerned with policing an entire sector, each containing about a thousand star systems. Stationary troop garrison of around a billion troops for a million star systems is impossible; ergo, the “sector armies” are rapid response forces, designed to handle specific incidents within their sector. Meanwhile, the stationary garrison of the Empire totals many tens of trillions of men. This is logically sound and rationalizes all of our sources.

Where did I say it was any kind of limit? It's just an estimation base on safe numbers. no more, no less.

It isn’t even an “estimation”. You might as well estimate the size of the US army based on the number of army soldiers visiting aircraft carriers.

There could be more, but I don't know of any information yet to complement this initial guess.

How about an explicit statement from my own source, that ends the debate right here by establishing the army as having tens of trillions of men?

Casting the debate aside, there is really no reason why you shouldn’t use this figure. It is logical and fits mathematically with the logistical needs of policing a galaxy, and it is canon. Ditto.

The book says that stormtroopers are used for attack or defending important worlds. When some imperial presence is needed for prolonged times outside of complicated worlds, the Army does the job.

Right…and the army has “tens of trillions” of men.

Again, what is wrong with this figure? From a completely independent mindset, what reason is there to campaign ridiculously low troop numbers, when none make the slightest shred of sense from a mathematical or logical perspective? How does a garrison of a few hundred stormtroopers police an entire planet? Such a force is completely insufficient to police Ottawa.

[Admiral Breetai]

KSW was a superior member to this sack of failure, so I ask again why was he permed and forest gump here can run free?

Why did JMS martyr himself for this clown?

[Trinoya]

Because anything that we may have issue with in regards to SWST here is an aside to the fact that he still tries to debate with some sort of moral code in regards to flaming. SFJ is essentially founded on the principle of reasoned debate, and flaming is heavily frowned upon.

SWST has done things in the past to be banned, but it is very rare that he outright openly insults or otherwise intentionally trolls. For any difference we may have with him we should endeavor to encourage 'peaceful' debating as much as possible.

Furthermore: It reflects badly upon this forum if we do not at least address his arguments and just question why he hasn't been permabanned. I think he is a broken record as much as the next person, but he has been punished for his past transgressions, and we must take his new posts for what they are.

If he continues to ignore points or other things, then I'm sure he'll be banned again. Ours is not to judge, ours is to debate.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Because anything that we may have issue with in regards to SWST here is an aside to the fact that he still tries to debate with some sort of moral code in regards to flaming. SFJ is essentially founded on the principle of reasoned debate, and flaming is heavily frowned upon.

SWST has done things in the past to be banned, but it is very rare that he outright openly insults or otherwise intentionally trolls.

That you don't know, and most likely don't realize. I take back what I said about your potential modhood. Anyone who has still some pity for SWST isn't worth modhood.

For any difference we may have with him we should endeavor to encourage 'peaceful' debating as much as possible.

It's not just about peaceful but also respectful behaviour. Don't you guys realize that SWST has just returned from his very last fresh ban, due to nothing more than his usual polite trolling? Are you still falling victim to that kind of crap? Were you asleep all that time?
Geez.

Furthermore: It reflects badly upon this forum if we do not at least address his arguments and just question why he hasn't been permabanned. I think he is a broken record as much as the next person, but he has been punished for his past transgressions, and we must take his new posts for what they are.

If he continues to ignore points or other things, then I'm sure he'll be banned again. Ours is not to judge, ours is to debate.

You get it all wrong, dude.
You can only grant someone the kindness to engage debate with this person if this same person does meet the requisite respect towards the community. I can't really get how your memory can be so faulty, because mine sure isn't.

And guess what? What reflects badly on this forum is the ineptitude of its staff to get the bugger off the place once and for all when his clever trolling is all in your face. And if he's not trolling but just too dumb to get the meaning of so many warnings and bans, then he's dumb, and there's nothing he can bring here but even more dumbness and trouble. Permaban is our equivalent to euthanasia for total retards, isn't? :D
I think that if you really don't get it, despite your obvious good enough level of neurons, I may have to consider that SWST might be a sockpuppet of yours, for there's no way one can be so naively kind towards such a bloke.

@ SWST
You've been banned too many a time, genius. Can't care what you say. And please don't necro threads in the vain hope I may pay close attention to your drivel. I skimmed your post and saw you returning with that "tens of trillions troopers" shtick again. I can't even care enough to report you for that, despite the gazillion times it's been addressed. You fail statistics, btw.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

You've been banned too many a time, genius. Can't care what you say.

Pot, kettle, black.

Where's your spacebattles account? Oh, right, it's gone, isn't it?

It's also hilarious that you are under the impression that the "tens of trillions" statement of mine is something a pulled out of my ass, rather than a canonical statement. But you wouldn't know, would you? You've lost this debate long ago: SDN.net has no active Trekkies, spacebattles.com's official force chart still has the Empire several tier positions above the borg collective, and CBR's wiki subscribes to Saxtonite yields, while deriding pro-Trek debaters. So your obsession with Appeals to Popularity are hilariously ironic. Good day to you.

But, if you actually have something of substance to say, feel free to talk. It seems as though that has been exhausted from your system, long ago.

[Mr. Oragahn]

You've been banned too many a time, genius. Can't care what you say.

Pot, kettle, black.

Where's your spacebattles account? Oh, right, it's gone, isn't it?

Not only the way SBC handles its rules is irrelevant to your case here (I guess you cannot see why though), but by virtue of their strictest upholding of their own home rules, it is virtually impossible for anyone at SBC to get more bans in a short period of time before a permaban than it is here, mainly because of the slow incremental ban duration we "enjoy" (well, I should said you enjoyed) and the scarce use of the permaban sanction at all.

It's also hilarious that you are under the impression that the "tens of trillions" statement of mine is something a pulled out of my ass, rather than a canonical statement. But you wouldn't know, would you?

Can't be arsed to even force myself to remember if you had a valid source to begin with. I know there were many more sources going against it, that's all.

You've lost this debate long ago: SDN.net has no active Trekkies, spacebattles.com's official force chart still has the Empire several tier positions above the borg collective, and CBR's wiki subscribes to Saxtonite yields, while deriding pro-Trek debaters. So your obsession with Appeals to Popularity are hilariously ironic. Good day to you.

But, if you actually have something of substance to say, feel free to talk. It seems as though that has been exhausted from your system, long ago.

L-O-L.
Let's just permaban this nuisance.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Not only the way SBC handles its rules is irrelevant to your case here (I guess you cannot see why though), but by virtue of their strictest upholding of their own home rules, it is virtually impossible for anyone at SBC to get more bans in a short period of time before a permaban than it is here, mainly because of the slow incremental ban duration we "enjoy" (well, I should said you enjoyed) and the scarce use of the permaban sanction at all.

Who cares? You were perm-banned, and until you did to me, I never tossed it in your face. Pot, kettle, black.

Can't be arsed to even force myself to remember if you had a valid source to begin with. I know there were many more sources going against it, that's all.

No there weren't, and I don't care if you don't remember it. The source is real.

L-O-L.
Let's just permaban this nuisance.

Like they perm-banned you?

Really, you already made a mockery out of yourself by noting that HTL's can snipe starfighters (or yacht that you stated was "barely larger") from a hundred kilometers away, and that said yacht could tank town-vaporizing shots.

Of course, you then did a series of what must have been extremely tiring mental gymnastics to argue that they had dialed down their yields (without a shred of evidence, and even though the shots were too weak to take out the yacht, which makes no fucking sense at all), even though this would lead to the conclusion that the HTL's targeting starfighters in RotS were also dialing down their yields. Or, that they weren't dialing down their yields, that HTL's are only town vaporizing...but that starfighters can tank town-vaporizing shots. In other words, you argued yourself into a hilarious, self contradicting circle, where no matter what interpretation you take, you lose.

[Trinoya]

That you don't know, and most likely don't realize. I take back what I said about your potential modhood. Anyone who has still some pity for SWST isn't worth modhood.

It is entirely true that I can't say it with any certainty, but I can state it as my opinion. Allow me to clarify what and how I mean all of this.

You see, SWST came here and debated everyone, and was trounced with a large bulk of evidence. I've seen members here trounce him time and time again. Eventually he was banned for a combination of flaming, trolling, failure to address evidence, and poor evidence sources. His punishment was dolled out.

That was the end of it for me. He returned and continued down a similar path. The cycle repeats and repeats and repeats. Punishments are dolled out. At each interval that's the 'end' of it for me.

This is a new interval. SWST opened it up with an acknowledgement of his poor posting behavior in the past. That's far more than I expected of him, and has led me to the conclusion that his 'trolling' is far less intentional and far more based upon general weaker debate capability.

What his debate capability is perfect at is bringing out the worse in others. We see that as a trolling attempt, rather than the inexperience that it is, and we've allowed it to get under our skin. It's like trying to argue with a child, no one is going to win, and everyone is going to feel bad.

I'm not going to chastise him anymore for trolling because honestly, I can't believe it is intentional anymore... but far more importantly it isn't an obligation I have here. Ours is to debate as it were... if I was a moderator I would be going over his posts with a fine tooth comb. I would be examining it all for meaning... as it stands now I'll call out bullshit when I feel it is required, which isn't very often because I see the bulk of the forum being on top of it. When SWST addresses arguments I have made or when I feel a true need to respond to him, I do... but anything else is just not worth it. I have faith in the capability of the other debaters here to challenge many of the old and tired arguments he has presented, and I have no reason to doubt their capability.

So I ask people to not confuse my apparent 'change of heart' in regards to him as anything more favorable to him, or less favorable. I'm opting to let things follow a course, and I've already seen the cycle begin to repeat again.

But I've seen him learn from each encounter, however miniscule it may be at times, and that means that no matter what disagreements I have with him I will encourage him to continue to debate. Hopefully he'll abandon some of the sillier arguments over the year, which would be nice, even if he remains pro-wars. Heck, I encourage that as having a consistent pro-wars member will give this forum an influx of topics and help expand its community.

It's not just about peaceful but also respectful behaviour. Don't you guys realize that SWST has just returned from his very last fresh ban, due to nothing more than his usual polite trolling? Are you still falling victim to that kind of crap? Were you asleep all that time?
Geez.

I hope the above better explains my position on all of that, and why I've reached the conclusion I did. I'm not going to judge his trolling behavior unless there is a clear line that has been crossed this time around. He's been punished for it, and our moderator will keep the peace if it is required to do so again.

If it is the will of the forum to want me to judge him, however, I'll be more than happy to let our local moderator know that I'm willing to accept the position.

You get it all wrong, dude.
You can only grant someone the kindness to engage debate with this person if this same person does meet the requisite respect towards the community. I can't really get how your memory can be so faulty, because mine sure isn't.

Hardly faulty, as I have demonstrated. A better interpretation would be, "I got bored with him" at worst, or "he's already been punished" at best. Believe me, if I see him espousing the level of crap he did before I'll be the first to jump on him.

That doesn't' mean that we, as a forum, have to stoop to those levels as well though, and if he is intentionally trolling then he is doing a great job at bringing us down there.

And guess what? What reflects badly on this forum is the ineptitude of its staff to get the bugger off the place once and for all when his clever trolling is all in your face. And if he's not trolling but just too dumb to get the meaning of so many warnings and bans, then he's dumb, and there's nothing he can bring here but even more dumbness and trouble. Permaban is our equivalent to euthanasia for total retards, isn't? :D

Not my place to judge all of that really. Our staff just saw to it that KSW has met an end, and I highly supported that decision. If SWST reaches that level in my eyes you can bet I'll stand strong by everyone here in seeing him meet the same fate. General ineptitude, or just being generally disagreeable and difficult, inst' anything near where KSW was in my opinion. I'm not going to say SWST can't achieve that same level, but I'm not also going to jump on and declare him to already be there. He'll get what he gives if he ever crosses the line.

I think that if you really don't get it, despite your obvious good enough level of neurons, I may have to consider that SWST might be a sockpuppet of yours, for there's no way one can be so naively kind towards such a bloke.

Heh, that's a funny thought honestly, but I think I've explained the position well enough so that you can see, it's not compassion... it's me just becoming tired of the cycle, and apathetic to it all. I'm going the opposite route of people here is all, I want to see if he does change, since at then that will be interesting.

If he doesn't, if he becomes truly a problem, then I'll be the first to support that ban hammer, and if I were to be a mod at that point, I would gladly be the one to drop it.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

You see, SWST came here and debated everyone, and was trounced with a large bulk of evidence. I've seen members here trounce him time and time again.

I know that you are attempting to "support" me, but you really need to realize that SFJ is a fringe group in the larger ST v SW debate, that my own stance on SW yields, industry and FTL speed, among others, are generally accepted facts in SDN, CBR and even spacebattles, and that the evidence brought forth to "trounce" my own always openly admits to being unscientific and illogical.

What, you say? For example; the answer given as to how one can argue that Wars uses nuclear fusion reactors, while at the same time arguing that the megaton scale firepower witnessed in ESB by Veer's AT-AT, or the vaporization of a star destroyer in RotJ, overloaded (when fusion reactors do not explode like nuclear bombs) is that "well, it's sci fi, it doesn't have to follow physics."

The answer given as to how the superlaser "theory" conforms with our understanding of physics is "well, it's sci fi , it doesn't have to be scientific."

The answer given as to how a four million man army is logical in the context of a galactic war is "well, it's sci fi, it doesn't have to be logical."

The answer given to the various acceleration feats in the films, implying acceleration rates of as much as 20,000 Gs, which scale up to Saxtonite figures, is "well, they could be using magical mass-lightening technology."



So the answer as to why Warsies and Trekkies disagree is that their methodologies are different. The former strictly adheres to a scientific and logical analysis of both universes, the latter is willing to pull the "it's just a film for pete's sake!" card whenever it suits them.

[Mr. Oragahn]

That you don't know, and most likely don't realize. I take back what I said about your potential modhood. Anyone who has still some pity for SWST isn't worth modhood.

It is entirely true that I can't say it with any certainty, but I can state it as my opinion. Allow me to clarify what and how I mean all of this.

You see, SWST came here and debated everyone, and was trounced with a large bulk of evidence. I've seen members here trounce him time and time again. Eventually he was banned for a combination of flaming, trolling, failure to address evidence, and poor evidence sources. His punishment was dolled out.

That was the end of it for me. He returned and continued down a similar path. The cycle repeats and repeats and repeats. Punishments are dolled out. At each interval that's the 'end' of it for me.

That’s not the way to deal with problems, because everytime he returns –and all know too well how he’ll behave– he becomes troublesome, again.
What does that mean?
I believe I elaborated on the consequences more than enough by now. Do I need to point out ALL the problems engendered by the decision taken of letting this virulent element do his thing?
Is it funny to force mods to go through all this mess every time, to have them make the effort of remembering what was wrong in the past, etc.?
Because, you know, in order to prove that SWST is ignoring former sanctions due to ignorance of evidence and other fallacies, you actually have to remember ALL of that, otherwise he can simply reboot the reasons for which he was banned weeks to months ago, especially after pleading total inonnence and honest errors, like he does after each warning. Do we really need to stress the staff with that kind of shit when we know there’s nothing good at the corner? Do we need to let him bait members, irritate old ones even more while jumping at newer members who will feed him?
What is so damned hard to understand in the concept of “good riddance”?? This is being a terrible joke pulled on us, I’m afraid.

This is a new interval. SWST opened it up with an acknowledgement of his poor posting behavior in the past. That's far more than I expected of him, and has led me to the conclusion that his 'trolling' is far less intentional and far more based upon general weaker debate capability.

He already did it, to a lesser degree, before. He’s always coming forth as the victim, and saying that if he missed some arguments, he’ll deal with them, only after we re-made our points clear (yes, we always have to repeat ourselves) and blah blah blah. And obviously some people just get caught. It’s a bunch of BS. AKA lies. He has no value to this board, and the laissez-faire is just deplorable. It drove half the members nuts, had some of them got slapped because they couldn’t stomach the staff’s quasi-lethargic attitude. An example of this being Mojo. Perhaps the whole trolling is part of a joke with he and some of his friends, but at least we’d get some respect from them if we’d prove we can stop being sissies for once and get the proper job done, for the betterment of all.

What his debate capability is perfect at is bringing out the worse in others. We see that as a trolling attempt, rather than the inexperience that it is, and we've allowed it to get under our skin. It's like trying to argue with a child, no one is going to win, and everyone is going to feel bad.

Well that is you being absolutely out of your mind. He reeked off provocation from day one. He’s clearly sufficiently intelligent to organize arguments and support them with “evidence” by a methodology that’s well known in versus debates (you know when someone is just too inapt to do proper debating), and this kind of real intelligent creature would have assuredly and quickly learned something from all the opposition he got served with, he’d have updated his knowledge and at least taken some wisdom out of it, but he never did. And he was proved dishonest times and times again. What you see as an error on his part, I see as a well thought out behaviour. He’s barely back, and he’s doing it again.

I'm not going to chastise him anymore for trolling because honestly, I can't believe it is intentional anymore... but far more importantly it isn't an obligation I have here. Ours is to debate as it were... if I was a moderator I would be going over his posts with a fine tooth comb. I would be examining it all for meaning... as it stands now I'll call out bullshit when I feel it is required, which isn't very often because I see the bulk of the forum being on top of it. When SWST addresses arguments I have made or when I feel a true need to respond to him, I do... but anything else is just not worth it. I have faith in the capability of the other debaters here to challenge many of the old and tired arguments he has presented, and I have no reason to doubt their capability.

What challenge is there in trying to convince a brick wall, pray tell? Where is the fun, what is the point? It’s like playing the same old game, with parameters outrageously stacked against one side and expecting a change. That’s just nonsense.

So I ask people to not confuse my apparent 'change of heart' in regards to him as anything more favorable to him, or less favorable. I'm opting to let things follow a course, and I've already seen the cycle begin to repeat again.

I disagree, but there’s obviously nothing that would change your opinion. I’m just glad we don’t get to deal with more SWSTs. Man, this place would soon become a shit hole without proper steel-tempered moderation.

But I've seen him learn from each encounter, however miniscule it may be at times, and that means that no matter what disagreements I have with him I will encourage him to continue to debate. Hopefully he'll abandon some of the sillier arguments over the year, which would be nice, even if he remains pro-wars. Heck, I encourage that as having a consistent pro-wars member will give this forum an influx of topics and help expand its community.

No that’s just bollocks. There’s never been any improvement. Heck, the last time Mike banned him, it actually happened faster than before. Now the troll is being more subtle. But he doesn’t concede anything (just read the new posts he made since his return). You can scream your lungs out about how the sky is blue all day, he doesn’t care at all. Yet for some reason, some people believe that he’s honestly trying to debate.

It's not just about peaceful but also respectful behaviour. Don't you guys realize that SWST has just returned from his very last fresh ban, due to nothing more than his usual polite trolling? Are you still falling victim to that kind of crap? Were you asleep all that time?
Geez.

I hope the above better explains my position on all of that, and why I've reached the conclusion I did. I'm not going to judge his trolling behavior unless there is a clear line that has been crossed this time around. He's been punished for it, and our moderator will keep the peace if it is required to do so again.

If it is the will of the forum to want me to judge him, however, I'll be more than happy to let our local moderator know that I'm willing to accept the position.

Do you enjoy wasting your time on punks, looking for a “clear line” to be crossed when the problem with this one is that you have to go through his crap and letting other members eating it too in order to, eventually, emphasize the sliver of trolling that's going on?
I don’t even understand why as a moderator, you’d put yourself under such total pointless pain.
People these days are not only too soft but also deeply masochistic. That’s quite sick in fact. :(

You get it all wrong, dude.
You can only grant someone the kindness to engage debate with this person if this same person does meet the requisite respect towards the community. I can't really get how your memory can be so faulty, because mine sure isn't.

Hardly faulty, as I have demonstrated. A better interpretation would be, "I got bored with him" at worst, or "he's already been punished" at best. Believe me, if I see him espousing the level of crap he did before I'll be the first to jump on him.

That doesn't' mean that we, as a forum, have to stoop to those levels as well though, and if he is intentionally trolling then he is doing a great job at bringing us down there.

Let’s drop the Vogue psychology here, shall we? We are not the problem. He is. If the correct people took the right decision ages ago, we wouldn’t be having this silly discussion right now.

And guess what? What reflects badly on this forum is the ineptitude of its staff to get the bugger off the place once and for all when his clever trolling is all in your face. And if he's not trolling but just too dumb to get the meaning of so many warnings and bans, then he's dumb, and there's nothing he can bring here but even more dumbness and trouble. Permaban is our equivalent to euthanasia for total retards, isn't? :D

Not my place to judge all of that really. Our staff just saw to it that KSW has met an end, and I highly supported that decision. If SWST reaches that level in my eyes you can bet I'll stand strong by everyone here in seeing him meet the same fate. General ineptitude, or just being generally disagreeable and difficult, inst' anything near where KSW was in my opinion. I'm not going to say SWST can't achieve that same level, but I'm not also going to jump on and declare him to already be there. He'll get what he gives if he ever crosses the line.

That’s the other facet of the political correctness of modern times. “WE. MUST. NOT. JUDGE.”
Eek.
It’s always easier to ban someone who’s obviously obnoxious but who could make good points from time to time, than a pure troll who’s not even worth used pants but knows how to exploit (y)our weaknesses.

I think that if you really don't get it, despite your obvious good enough level of neurons, I may have to consider that SWST might be a sockpuppet of yours, for there's no way one can be so naively kind towards such a bloke.

Heh, that's a funny thought honestly, but I think I've explained the position well enough so that you can see, it's not compassion... it's me just becoming tired of the cycle, and apathetic to it all. I'm going the opposite route of people here is all, I want to see if he does change, since at then that will be interesting.

If he doesn't, if he becomes truly a problem, then I'll be the first to support that ban hammer, and if I were to be a mod at that point, I would gladly be the one to drop it.

Oh, that’s very clever now. As part of your bored routine, you want to see if he’ll change. What if other people don’t want to, and had rightfully enough with him? Hasn’t he been given enough chances? Do you find it amusing to let a person, who you fully know not to be doing anything good here, to sack this place at his leisure? You’re way too libertarian for the health of this place. A lack of strong authority opens the door to any kind of stupid abuse. I’m saddened. I thought that as a moderator, you’d know better, that if he doesn’t prove useful and is known as a nuisance, that there would be no point keeping him around. Yet you’ve grown indolent, near depressively amused if I may say. He played the clock against you and he got what he wanted, as perfectly demonstrated by your “If he becomes truly a problem.”
...
Oh, sorry!
Were you joking? Dude, you almost got me there! :D