Challenge: Invade the Star Wars galaxy

[KSW]

You capslock too much to believe the capslocking:

if lucas meant for the republic to be 1,000 years old rather than 1,000 generations old, rather than the fucking truth which is that he fucking forgot his own shit, then THE FUCKING QUOTE WOULD BE CHANGED TO MATCH THE PREQUEL QUOTE.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA

Fail!

That's the lamest speculation ever.
The fact is the most recent MOVIE is the newest version.
The latest distribution is not.
You're confusing a movie with distribution.
I suppose that newborn baby Leia remembers her mother too, from her first first five whole seconds ex utero. LOL

[Trinoya]

starwars.com supports a 1,000 year old republic.


However: This doesn't mean there wasn't a government prior to that, which all media supports, and it doesn't mean that that government couldn't have been a republic. It just means it wasn't the same republic... And considering all the media of the time period prior to that shows the galaxy in near constant war... that isn't surprising.

There is no reason to presume the two statements must contradict. It just means the Jedi have been guardians of 'a' republic for 10,000 generations and the previous republic was clearly considered a separate entity to the current 1,000 year old republic.

What's more impressive is that technology has remained entirely stagnant for easily that long.



Also, a lot of venom going on in these threads... it should get toned down a bit.

[KSW]

starwars.com supports a 1,000 year old republic.


However: This doesn't mean there wasn't a government prior to that, which all media supports, and it doesn't mean that that government couldn't have been a republic. It just means it wasn't the same republic... And considering all the media of the time period prior to that shows the galaxy in near constant war... that isn't surprising.

There is no reason to presume the two statements must contradict. It just means the Jedi have been guardians of 'a' republic for 10,000 generations and the previous republic was clearly considered a separate entity to the current 1,000 year old republic.

No, they're clearly both talking about the same republic-- "THE" Republic.

What's more impressive is that technology has remained entirely stagnant for easily that long.

Not if everything's being controlled by midichlorians; if technology got too advanced it would threaten their control. So they'd use their influence to keep it stagnant.

That's why the Federation would get involved, i.e. since the Prime Directive doesn't apply to stagnant cultures that are locked in cyclical patterns, as in "The Apple" and "Errand of Mercy."
There, they intervened with civilizations because they weren't growing, but had been stagnant as long as could be determined.

So if the Federation found out about this galaxy, then they'd want to do the same thing.

Naturally the midichlorians would get butthurt about this, and it would be ON!

[Admiral Breetai]

starwars.com supports a 1,000 year old republic.


However: This doesn't mean there wasn't a government prior to that, which all media supports, and it doesn't mean that that government couldn't have been a republic. It just means it wasn't the same republic... And considering all the media of the time period prior to that shows the galaxy in near constant war... that isn't surprising.

There is no reason to presume the two statements must contradict. It just means the Jedi have been guardians of 'a' republic for 10,000 generations and the previous republic was clearly considered a separate entity to the current 1,000 year old republic.

What's more impressive is that technology has remained entirely stagnant for easily that long.



Also, a lot of venom going on in these threads... it should get toned down a bit.

the thousand years I've heard refers to the post ruushzan galaxy after a millenium long war with the sith in which point Jedi became basically dictators of the republic and they lost something like half or two thirds of the republic to said sith

the reformations after said war..the removal of Jedi as heads of states all that..is why many consider the republic to only be a thousand years old

but yeah technology stagnated or in some cases downgraded

[Mike DiCenso]

I agree with Trinoya. People, knock it off here and now, or I start issuing warnings to all involved here.
-Mike

[StarWarsStarTrek]

39 ships in peace time...

Oh, yes. So Federation production in peacetime just happens to be less than their wartime production by nine orders of magnitude. That just makes perfect sense.

Show me evidence that even a fully mobilized, war prepared Alpha Quadrant ever produced even half of the first Death Star in a decade.

[sonofccn]

Oh, yes. So Federation production in peacetime just happens to be less than their wartime production by nine orders of magnitude.

I don't believe I stated it was nine orders of magnitude. I stated BOBW occured during a time of relative peace, which it did, and then mentioned the Dominion war where the final push on Cardassia prime was expected to cost "thousands" of ships for the victors or where a single battle in the "Tyra system":

BASHIR: Only fourteen ships made it back to our lines.
MARTOK: Fourteen out of a hundred and twelve.

Suffice it to say the Dominion war made the battle of wolf 359 look like child's play and is a better benchmark for what the Federation can sustain on a war economy.

Show me evidence that even a fully mobilized, war prepared Alpha Quadrant ever produced even half of the first Death Star in a decade.

I have not made any argument for or against that, I leave such matters to those who have a better grasp of volumetrics than I, you were arguing over the Federation industry pointing to the BOBW quote as the end all be all. I corrected you.

Further more considering this:

The Death Star Project is an example of a priority sector into which the Empire poured resources enough to have formed perhaps a score of Sector Groups

does lend credence to the theroy the Death stars were an oddball quirk whose mass can't be translated into individual ships. Now perhaps, as I stated last time I posted this, this has been countermanded by a later source and it does raise the concern the Death Star could be mass produced, the well mentioned thousands of sectors, through how easily would still remain to be seen but as the quote stands its a wooden stake through the heart for the death star=humongous fleet argument.

[mojo]

what bugs me about the theory that a huge fleet of death stars could be created is the simple fact that they are such HUGE FUCKING BIG DEALS in all of star wars including the eu. how many times does han state in the eu that the empire fell apart because they couldn't stop trying to build superweapons? i've read that at least half a dozen times. no one argues with him, including pellaeon. that's enough for me.

[mojo]

not that that's scientific evidence, of course. but worth mentioning.

[Mike DiCenso]

That's what contradicts "Shadows of the Empire". If building a Death Star only takes 6 months and is only modest fraction of the Empire's budget, then why didn't the Emperor just start ordering 10 of the the damn things right after the loss of the first one instead of waiting 5 or more years?
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

You've admitted that lucas says that the newest versions of the films always make up the canon.

A DVD-release with the original script unchanged is not a "new version." It's the old version with a better picture.

Newest as latest.
1000 generations from the perspective of a human who's seen to age just like Earth humans means roughly 25,000 years.
I think all SW fans have moved on and assumed that the latest version of the Republic the galaxy has known is 1000 years old.
The EU makes mention of a reform. I haven't checked out if that's the crucial event that allows people to consider the birth of a new Republic, but there's that Ruusan reform that occurred like 1200~1300 years before ANH iirc. Not exactly spot on but it would be as close as it can get.
Anyway, all this bickering is fruitless.

@ Mike: I didn't find any clear/direct reference of any building duration in SOTE. If SWST has a quotation, he should provide it. It's possible he already did, but I didn't see that post then.

[KSW]

You've admitted that lucas says that the newest versions of the films always make up the canon.

A DVD-release with the original script unchanged is not a "new version." It's the old version with a better picture.

Newest as latest.

That doesn't affirm the canonicity of what's on it.
It's absurd to claim that "they would have changed it otherwise."
No, they wouldn't. No more than in RotJ when Leia says she remembers her mother.
That's just arguing a negative.

So we're to believe that it was changed when the PT films came out, but the DVD release of the original dialogue OT changed it back?

[KSW]

That's what contradicts "Shadows of the Empire". If building a Death Star only takes 6 months and is only modest fraction of the Empire's budget, then why didn't the Emperor just start ordering 10 of the the damn things right after the loss of the first one instead of waiting 5 or more years?
-Mike

I'd say it's because they changed the design. Creating more of the original prototype would be easy, once they had a proven working design; but it would put too much power to in too many hands.
If any crew of a Death Star went rogue, they could mount a coup and destroy planets on their own, and it would be nearly impossible to stop them. He only had one Sith-apprentice to keep that from happening.

The reason Palpatine build a second, larger Death Star would be to present a greater threat to his opposition, but still maintain control of it.
That's always the moral of the tyrant, i.e. he has to depend on his subordinates, and they can turn against him just as easily.

[Mr. Oragahn]

You've admitted that lucas says that the newest versions of the films always make up the canon.

A DVD-release with the original script unchanged is not a "new version." It's the old version with a better picture.

Newest as latest.

That doesn't affirm the canonicity of what's on it.
It's absurd to claim that "they would have changed it otherwise."
No, they wouldn't. No more than in RotJ when Leia says she remembers her mother.
That's just arguing a negative.

So we're to believe that it was changed when the PT films came out, but the DVD release of the original dialogue OT changed it back?

There's nothing as such. The movies, all of them, are on the same level. I have never heard of one movie taking precedence, in terms of canonical validity, over another one because its first release or its latest edition is more recent.

Point is, if there is a contradiction, then there is a contradiction. No information is better than the other. We then have to rationalize things, or if it doesn't work, try to find which information is validated elsewhere at the same level in the canon hierarchy. Like it's done for the hadiths in Islam for example.

There is, really, no reason to be so obtuse on such a miserable segment of the SW lore.
As I said, there are bigger problems to deal with, including the size of the SW galaxy.

[Mr. Oragahn]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ruusan_Reformation

That's how the EU dealt with it, and I think it's rather clever. Everything is explained, and we understand how the Republic was so altered that it could be considered completely new or reborn 1000 BBY.