Strong Economy?

[Lucky]

Where does the idea that the Star Wars Galaxy has a strong and robust economy come from?

[Mr. Oragahn]

Where does the idea that the Star Wars Galaxy has a strong and robust economy come from?

I guess from the secrecy of the Death Star projects' budgets lost in some paper work, Palpatine's capacity to pay Kaminoans and have thousands of warships built in secret.
With, at the same time, all the bits about the Republic almost gone bankrupt because of clones and the Empire nearly experiencing the same things with the ISD project before ANH.

[Nowhereman10]

Where does the idea that the Star Wars Galaxy has a strong and robust economy come from?

I guess from the secrecy of the Death Star projects' budgets lost in some paper work, Palpatine's capacity to pay Kaminoans and have thousands of warships built in secret.
With, at the same time, all the bits about the Republic almost gone bankrupt because of clones and the Empire nearly experiencing the same things with the ISD project before ANH.

Yeah, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the Empire or Republic had a robust economy just because they built some stuff in secret. I mean, for many years during the Cold War, the USSR and it's client states researched and constructed many projects in total secrecy, and yet we know know in historical hindsight what a sham it's economy as well as other self-described communist states were.

Of course, nowadays the USA and EU economies aren't doing so well from all the massive debt spending, so one would presume that the Empire hid a lot of it's debt, or had some method of having it bought off, ala the USA with China. We certainly know from TCW that the Republic and the Seperatists could and did take massive loans from the Banking Clan to fund their continued war efforts.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I figured that Palpatine borrowed a shit lot of money during the Clone Wars, with the promise of capturing worlds and the wealth of the CIS. Later on he may have done it again, but by offering some exploitation contracts regardless of any free trade rules, if there were such things (it seems so, considering the plot of TPM).

It's also possible that without the Republic being too much in debt, its population was globally "rich" and nations or planets owned a great many assets which were public, but in order to get money, Palpatine robbed them as much as possible, notably by privatizing willy-nilly.

As such, and considering that the Empire produced a lot of its material through the hands of privately owned companies (from ships to battle stations), which he could pressure more or less depending on their might and who was at their head (read suicided), it's completely possible that if building Death Stars required massive money borrowing and selling countless quantities of public assets, a lot of money ended in the hands of a few while there would be fewer and fewer occasions for Palpatine to find more money to build more of those battle stations.
Technically, he probably didn't care at all, and that would be why he considered that the battle station would allow him to retake control of everything anyway, and that the destruction of the first one may have scared him a bit so he decided that the second Death Star would have to be even bigger, not only because now someone else might be able to build one (who knows, with those leaked plans) but also because there wouldn't be another occasion to build one.

That could explain, aside from logistics and research, why the second Death Star came so fast. Palpatine may have literally sold the world to get it.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Of course, nowadays the USA and EU economies aren't doing so well from all the massive debt spending, so one would presume that the Empire hid a lot of it's debt, or had some method of having it bought off, ala the USA with China. We certainly know from TCW that the Republic and the Seperatists could and did take massive loans from the Banking Clan to fund their continued war efforts.

I'd have said that the Empire had sold his debt in mass to the Corporate Sector, but as part of my research in order to put a price tag on a Death Star, I found a piece of information from an old WEG that said the CS paid a strong tax to the Empire.
That's odd, because if the CS behaved like China, China would buy the Empire's debt so citizens of the Empire can buy goods produced by the Corporate Sector (although many are bought internally).
The Corporate Sector is ruthless. It's capitalism at full speed over there. People's lives are worthless.
I suppose there's some kind of complicated system going on here: the CS' top finance and industries buys imperial debt bonds, so citizens of the Empire still remain able to buy massive quantities of cheap hardware. Meanwhile, the Empire imposes a tithe to the CS, which is just a convenient deal since although it does bring money to the Empire, that money is not paid by the upper class of the Corporate Sector, but by the masses below, heavily taxed and having absolutely miserable lives.

Damn, I think I'm gonna go digging that old text file I started writing and take another look at the Corporate Sector RPG rulebook.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I randomly went looking for some WEG supplement book, called Lords of the Expanse.
This sector is heavily featured and referenced in many other EU products.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tapani_Sector
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... lonies.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... xymap3.JPG
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rimma_Trade_Route

Below are details about the sector's economy and some information on hyperlanes.

Chapter One

Welcome to Tapani Sector

Tapani sector is located in the Colonies on
the Shapani Bypass, a trade route which is an
offshoot of the Rimma Trade Route. The sector
capital is Procopia, though the world of Tallaan
is actually as important, because the main
Imperial regional depot is located here.
Though Tapani isn't in the Core, it might as
well be; it is a vastly wealthy sector with political
thumbs in almost every Imperial pie. Its
noble families, most ardent supporters of the
Emperor, have sent their sons and daughters
into the most elite Imperial institutions - private
schools, the Academy, the Navy, and the halls of
power on Coruscant. And the results
are starting to pay off - house members now
captain Star Destroyers, command worlds as
moffs and governors, and sit in council with the
Emperor himself.

Having invested so much in the Empire,
Tapani sector is able to maintain a certain level
of independence; while surrounding sectors
are ruled directly by Imperial-appointed administrators,
Tapani sector is permitted to
choose its own leaders. This is a delicate situation
that might change at any moment.

The sector economy is booming, which helps
the Tapani lords afford their fine estates and
huge luxury star cruisers. Tapani has a large
population of highly educated workers, and its
research facilities rank among the most productive
in the Empire (especially those at Mrlsst
Academy).

There are about 70 systems in the sector,
roughly a fifth of which have inhabitable worlds
which are heavily settled. Other systems also
have settlements, but much smaller ones: research
stations, military outposts, mining facilities,
and so on.

Tapani has a large number of temperate
worlds within it, and an abundance of raw
materials ripe for mining, including some which
are relatively rare in the rest of the galaxy
(Tapani mining companies have been shipping
trillions of tons of valuable ore to the Core
annually for several thousand years). Tapani
sector is one of the closest major sources of
rawmats to the Core. This gives it an edge when
competing with sectors further out which must
raise their prices to cover higher transportation
costs.

Geographically, Tapani sector lies a bit off
the Rimma Trade Route. The Rimma run, as it is
known in trader slang, ranges from the Core
all the way out to the remote Kathol sector. It
used to be quite a way off the beaten path, but
centuries ago some Republic scouts blazed a
big short-cut right through the sector that cut
days off the Rimma run. The new bypass
brought Tapani sector into a major trade route,
and that livened the place up a bit. On
starcharts, the shortcut is called the Shapani
Bypass, but most folks call it the Bacta Run or
the Bacta Bypass instead, since it was established
to get bacta into the Core faster; Thyferra,
the major production center for the Empire's
bacta, is just a few days travel away (though
not in Tapani sector itself).

There are two distinct parts to Tapani sector:
the Expanse and the Freeworlds Region.
The Expanse is an ore-rich area of space under
the control of noble houses - the remnants of
the small stellar empire which once ruled the
sector centuries ago. It is made up of seven
provinces which make up specific house holdings.
The sector capital, Procopia, is an independent
world which, by tradition, is governed
by the ruling coalition.

Slowly encroaching on the Expanse is the
Freeworlds Region, a series of systems on the
border of the sector. The Freeworlds Region,
which was once the backward fringe of the
sector, has become powerful thanks to its position
on two major trade routes, the Shapani
Bypass and the Giju Run (an ancient Herglic
trade route). Because most Expanse ore must
pass through the Freeworlds, there is a lot of
bickering about the high tariffs the Freeworlds
place on Expanse shipping.

Despite its distance from the Core region, by
tradition the Tapani sector is considered a part
of the Core community. The Tapani nobles are
constantly going to and from Coruscant, partly
to attend to business there, but mostly so the
Emperor can keep an eye on them, and they on
him.

Traveling in Tapani Sector

Tapani sector is a fairly young segment of
space, filled with nebulae, gas clouds, and coalescing
systems. The many fiery red and ice
blue tendrils of intergalactic vapor and gas
clouds are beautiful and majestic, but they also
make the sector a difficult one to navigate
through.

In many other sectors a dense network of
hyperlanes links every world with just about
every other world. Tapani sector has only a few
drifting space lanes linking its various parts.
This is because most of the hyperlanes are
unstable, and establishing multiple routes is
not feasible.

Millennia ago, traveling through hyperspace
was extremely perilous everywhere, because
interstellar space is clogged with dangerous
debris. Such hazards and obstructions could
be discovered only though trial and error, and
mistakes were usually fatal. Over time, certain
routes between planets were found to be fairly
safe, and the Republic Spacelane Bureau established
a network of hyperspace buoys linking
them together. Eventually, powerful
navicomputers were developed to store and
process all the possible hyperspace jumps
deemed safe, and spaceship captains gained
the freedom to travel the stars without slavishly
following the buoys.

However, some areas of space are so choked
with galactic debris and celestial objects that
safe hyperspace travel is all but impossible
without hyperspace buoys, even in the modern
Imperial era. Tapani sector is so cluttered with
debris that just about every system must be
monitored by a hyperspace buoy. The only
truly stable route through the sector is the
Shapani Bypass. Travelers can safely shunt up
and down the Bypass without dropping out of
hyperspace year in and year out.

The other lanes of the sector are less stable,
and are maintained by hyperspace buoys guarding
each system. Interstellar drift causes dangerous
obstructions to enter hyperspace routes
on a regular basis, and the buoys monitor the
situation and recalibrate routes on the fly.
Ships passing through a cluttered area must
drop out of hyperspace at a buoy juncture and
load the new data before continuing. Such
interruptions to one's trip are annoying, and in
some pirate-infested regions, highly dangerous.
(But not as dangerous as blowing by the
buoy and entering an unclear hyperlane.)
The Shapani Bypass and Giju Run are the
only known exits to the sector. There may well
be a few secret routes leading out of the sector,
but if there are, those in the know aren't telling.
Certainly, such a route would be worth trillions
of credits to some governments.

Chapter Three

The Rimma Trade Route

The Tapani sector does not exist in a vacuum.
The Rimma Trade Route, of which the Shapani
Bypass is a part for all practical purposes, runs
from the outer Core worlds out to the remote
Imperial outposts in the Minos Cluster. Were
one to travel from one end of the Rimma Trade
Route to the other in a Star Destroyer traveling
at maximum velocity, it would take at least six
weeks to make the trip.

All along this trade route are hundreds of
worlds, each with its own imports and exports
which generate the traffic that passes up and
clown the Rimma. Generally speaking, worlds
close to the Core tend to import raw materials,
foodstuffs, and low-tech products, and export
high-tech items. Happily, in the sticks the opposite
holds true, creating a natural balance in
markets. Naturally there are exceptions to this
rule; there are backward worlds near the Core,
and advanced civilizations far out in the backwaters
of the Empire.

An example of a world which the Empire nationalized. Read turned into a profitable labour camp.

Giju

The homeworld of the Herglics, Giju is a
humid world of marshy land dotted with many
landlocked lakes and seas. It has a highlydeveloped
industrial base which helped cata-
pult it to the stars centuries ago. The Empire
has nationalized most industry on Giju, and
keeps the pragmatic Herglics a captive labor
pool on their own planet.
Though technically on the Rimma Trade
Route, Giju doesn't get as much traffic as it did
in centuries past. When the Shapani Bypass
was established, it cut this stretch of the Rimma
route out of the loop. Happily for Giju (and the
Empire), it is still an active trade world thanks
to the many manufactured products it exports.

Exports: Mid tech, high tech
Imports: Foodstuffs, low tech, raw materials

The Empire is that funny beast that will seize control of certain worlds and directly rule entire swathes of their economy and production facilities, but will at the same rely on the power and expertise of considerably large corporations to obtain key assets, such as warships for example.

Eriadu

Eriadu is one of the Outer Rim's most active
trading ports and the capital of Seswanna sector.
It lies on a junction of several major Outer
Rim trade routes. In addition to the Rimma
route, it also intersects the Hydian Way, the
Lipsec Run, and the more local Yankirk route.
It is a regional manufacturing center for Imperial
military ordnance (including Chariots and
AT-AT walkers), and has a robust civilian manufacturing
base as well. Its chief artistic export is
delicate shellwork jewelry.

Exports: Imperial ordnance, repulsorlift vehicles,
mid tech, medicine, shellwork jewelry
Imports: Foodstuffs, low tech, high tech, raw materials

An idea of the money necessary to refurbish a very large warship capable to hold its own against 3 ISDs:

Pelagia Province

Pelagon

Points of Interest. Pelagon has numerous
ruins, including the abandoned platforms and
the ancient great underwater cities of some
forgotten civilization. House Pelagia is working
in these areas to cover its covert build-up of
weapons, resources, and monetary funds.
Orbiting Pelagon is the wreckage of The
Pelagia Star, a massive ship over 2,500 meters
long. It was the flagship of the Pelagia navy,
until the Empire arrived that fateful day. The
ship, of an ancient, unknown design, absorbed
the battering of three Imperial Star Destroyers,
but even their combined firepower couldn't
down the vessel. Content to damage it beyond
repair, the Empire left its shattered bulk behind
as a reminder to the people of Pelagon.
The ship has been converted to a space
station and renamed Pelagia's Moon. It's a
freeport now, open to free traders, housealigned
traders, and fringers alike. The station
generates suitable income for Pelagon. Over
the last five years, very slowly and quietly,
House Pelagia has sunk millions of credits into
the ship to refurbish it as a warship. She now
has sublight engines and several weapons arrays.
Most of these components were purchased
through XTS and other, less reputable
sources. The next goal is to bring hyperdrive
engines on line and one day, House Pelagia
hopes that Pelagia's Moon will again be its
flagship.

We also get examples of prices for typical starship of this sector.
The Tapani-class Assault Frigate costs 1.6 billion credits.
The Tapani-class Carrier costs 760 million credits. Starfighters are not included in the price.
A bacta transport costs 1.2 million credits.
Mere aircrafts cost from 11,500 to 27,500 credits.

Those prices, rather low, are most likely due to the fact that all these technologies are considerably old and very well spread.

I once discussed about prices in SW and it became obvious that WEG's understanding of pricing was better than what you'd find in later D20 material, with massive warship prices having fallen down by something like three orders of magnitude if I recall correctly.

Many goods can be bought with decicreds without cracking a whole full credit.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Here comes more information, this time on the Mining Guild.

From Lords of the Expanse, Gamemaster Guide, page 40:



300,000 companies provide 75% of the raw resources the Empire relies on.



An idea of the quantities once shipped out of the Core. Billions and billions tons of raw ore are produced per month.
We also get to know how massive the imperial secret projects were: besides the vast decentralization of power due to the Guild's structure, many imperial agents kept turning archives into Swiss cheese.



Many rare ores are exploited, while mundane elements barely leave planets or systems, unless there's a stringent need in a place that's devoid of them.
This would also explain why making ships is not so easy.

[Lucky]

I thought part of why Biggs Darklighter joined the Rebellion was because the Empire was nationalizing everything to the point where it was possibly just a matter of time before even uncle Owen's farm was nationalized? Is that from a comic, or episode 4's novelization?
__________

The only shipping company in the Republic era was the Trade Federation. It was them or smugglers it seems.

It also seems like business was so bad that if the TF lost it's monopoly they would take a major blow.

The TF needed a literal army to collect debts.

All this sounds like business was bad.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I thought part of why Biggs Darklighter joined the Rebellion was because the Empire was nationalizing everything to the point where it was possibly just a matter of time before even uncle Owen's farm was nationalized? Is that from a comic, or episode 4's novelization?
__________

The only shipping company in the Republic era was the Trade Federation. It was them or smugglers it seems.

It also seems like business was so bad that if the TF lost it's monopoly they would take a major blow.

The TF needed a literal army to collect debts.

All this sounds like business was bad.

By the description from LotE, the Empire was nationalizing a lot, but the output of the "free" businesses of the Guild was so important that even the companies providing raw materials outside said Guild represented only 25% of the whole.
That's why it's also explained that Palpatine tried to put many agents anywhere he could.

The information I provided doesn't cover the construction of ships, droids, weapons or other goods.
The Corporate Sector covers a lot of this and it's also allowed to work freely.
If I'm unable to provide more information, you'll have to go find it in the West End Games RPG book about the Corporate Sector.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Daala squinted out the viewport, and suddenly she saw a whirlwind of tiny lights appear, marking deck after deck on a breathtakingly huge ship. The immense wedge-shaped shadow was a single vessel, larger than anything she had ever seen before.
"I can't believe it," Pellaeon said beside her. "Only the Executor was this big-and that one ship practically bankrupted the Empire."

We must understand that it was the Super Star Destroyer project which was expensive. Added to the organized secretive "theft" of resources reoriented towards the production of the Death Star, we understand that the Empire definitely was in a very vulnerable position.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The Structure of the Empire

The Empire is still growing. Policies of expansion established by the Old Republic were never rescinded, and exploration -and now conquest- continues. The Imperial Survey Corps, scientists and scouts charged with exploring the galaxy, has seen its funds cut sharply over the years. Still, a new system is being catalogued for the Empire every 207 minutes by the understaffed ISC.
Most of the recently surveyed worlds have remained untouched by Imperial colonization. The Empire has little use for an expanding frontier. Frontier settlements offer greater freedom to Imperial citizens and stretch Imperial forces even further. That is not the interests of the Empire.
However, an ISC team occasionally turns up an inhabited world in the process of cataloging. Inhabited worlds mean taxes and other valuable resources for the Empire. These worlds are initially offered a place in the New Order, provided they agree to fall in the line with the will of the Emperor. If a world refuses to reneges on its oath of allegiance, then the Empire resorts to military conquest.

That's an average of 2539 systems discovered per year.

Control of Information

There was a free flow of information during the time of the Old Republic, an exchange of ideas and cultures which promoted rapid growth in almost every facet of the Republic. This flow of information also helped to hasten the decline of the Republic, as the constituent worlds were constantly and quickly updated on the state of the conflict in the Senate.
The environment of uncertainty was self-promoting. The Emperor and his advisors choose to avoid this consequence and forego the benefits the system had given the early Republic.
During the time of the Old Republic, there was a HoloNet which transmitted information throughout the constituent worlds. The HoloNet was extremely expensive to maintain, but it was provided the Republic with a sophisticated, flexible means of communication. Consisting of hundreds of thousands of non-mass transceivers connected through a vast matrix of coordinated hyperspace S-threads (popularly known as SimuTunnels), as well as the computing power to sort and decode all of the information, the HoloNet was the method available for real-time holographic transmissions between worlds.
It was horrendously expensive to maintain, costing many thousands of credits per full-channel transmission second per transceiver. The HoloNet was used almost exclusively by the government and the larger commercial houses of the Old Republic. But it did connect the constituent worlds, giving a sense of belonging to the average citizen.
Smaller commercial concerns and individuals never used the HoloNet directly; they relied on the literally millions of traders who traveled the commerce corridors of the Old Republic.
Soon after Palpatine assumed the throne he dismantled the HoloNet, achieving two objectives. First, he made it difficult for any foes in the Senate to coordinate any resistance to his designs. Any individual system no matter how wealthy or influential, could easily be crushed by the Empire. Second, the constituent worlds were used to absorbing the cost of the HoloNet, even though most worlds received little benefit from the system the final days of the Republic's collapse. The gave the Emperor an enormous flow credits with which to initiate the rapid build up of Imperial forces, manning and outfitting more troops in the first six months of his reign than the Republic had ever mobilized at any one time.
Governor Tarkin urged the Emperor to reinstitute HoloNet technology on a much smaller scale, for use by the Imperial Navy only, and then only at the level of the Sector Group. This proposal was made in a transmission to the Emperor which outlined a plan for ruling the Empire with an economy of force. The Emperor approved of the plan, awarding Tarkin Grand Moff status for his efforts. The plan soon became known, unofficially, as the Tarkin Doctrine.

Hundreds of thousands of transceivers used by the OR.
Cost of communication: many thousands of credits per full-channel transmission second per transceiver. Simply put, a single second of communication was worth several thousands credits on the average.

If we go by 200,000 transceivers and a cost of 2,000 credits a second per transceiver, we find that a single second of galactic wide flux mobilizing all the transceivers would already cost 400 million credits!
A full minute would be worth 24 bn Imperial Credits.
Enough to buy more than six fresh ISDs, according to WEG's cost of an ISD.

The amount of money saved by dismantling this network (money which could only be absorbed by the Empire through taxation) allowed it to man and outfit many more troops within 6 months than the OR ever mobilized at any time.
Basically, what allowed the Empire to field so many troops was the complete destruction of a galactic wide Internet, which would later be reforged into a smaller system under complete Imperial rule, therefore considerably limiting its usage costs.

[KSW]

\

If we go by 200,000 transceivers and a cost of 2,000 credits a second per transceiver, we find that a single second of galactic wide flux mobilizing all the transceivers would already cost 400 million credits!
A full minute would be worth 24 bn Imperial Credits.
Enough to buy more than six fresh ISDs, according to WEG's cost of an ISD.

The amount of money saved by dismantling this network (money which could only be absorbed by the Empire through taxation) allowed it to man and outfit many more troops within 6 months than the OR ever mobilized at any time.
Basically, what allowed the Empire to field so many troops was the complete destruction of a galactic wide Internet, which would later be reforged into a smaller system under complete Imperial rule, therefore considerably limiting its usage costs.

And even more the usage benefits.
What about the harm to the economy caused by suddenly cutting off all private-sector communications?
It would be hard to trade if there was no way to communicate levels of supply and demand between worlds.

"Tarkin Doctrine?" Sounds more like the Obama Doctrine to me. How'd they continue the cashflow of credits?

(I know, I know-- "a wizard did it.")

[Mr. Oragahn]

And even more the usage benefits.
What about the harm to the economy caused by suddenly cutting off all private-sector communications?
It would be hard to trade if there was no way to communicate levels of supply and demand between worlds.

The galactic market, segmented, would be ripe for rumours of all sorts. Speculation would obviously gain a lot from such a state of affairs.
It seems that the HoloNet largely was a public affair. As it's explained, only governments and higher commercial houses used it. I suspect that the houses didn't pay more than what was deemed good enough, on the average, to keep the system working; surely some planets would manage their share of the HoloNet in a much less altruistic way than other worlds. However, outside of the Corporate Sector, I wouldn't picture worlds relinquishing their communication might to private business. But perhaps there are cases of privately owned transceivers pre-Empire.
Basically, I assume that either all costs of maintenance were largely absorbed locally according to a galactic senatorial ruling and charts, or they were directly taken care of centrally through the Republic's administration.

The Empire had two choices.
Either maintain the network and try to raise the prices to finance its armies, or shut it down. The later obviously allowed it to gain a considerable advantage in terms of control of information. It could, later on and after having reorganized a military HoloNet, allow some special contracts to let powerful companies borrow some of the bandwidth, most likely at a considerable fee.
You can only imagine the amount of bribery going on between local commercial empires and Moffs.

[KSW]

What about the harm to the economy caused by suddenly cutting off all private-sector communications?
It would be hard to trade if there was no way to communicate levels of supply and demand between worlds.

The galactic market, segmented, would be ripe for rumours of all sorts. Speculation would obviously gain a lot from such a state of affairs.

[Picard]

Actually, basic Keynesian theory is both valid and easy to understand. It holds that, during periods of economical growth, state must accumulate wealth in order to help sustain, and then repair, economy during periods of economical recession.

And Obama is a Friedmanite too. He sanitates corporations, but doesn't help workers - who actually run the economy (or rather, what's left of it). Meanwhile, instead of helping economy, giving stumuluses to small and medium business, US and EU Central Banks are busy feeding corporations and buying off their own debt? WTH? You pay off debt after you get economy back on the track, not before it.

http://petrblt.wordpress.com/2009/09/28 ... le-nation/

http://inequality.org/equality-and-growth/

http://www.houseofpaine.org/bonziebean/blog/?paged=8