I challenge darkstar to a debate

[Mr. Oragahn]

Fuck your "obvious". It was constructed in secret, the galaxy did not implode into poverty as a result of it.]

umm what? The Empire was so utterly crippled by the fiasco at Endor that merely the fall of Palpy and his gigantic space ball essentially destroyed it..it ceased to exist entirely in a matter of hours. so much so partying took place on the imperial capital where they threw down his statues

now the empire still had a navy and an army..yet it entirely ceased to exist in a single moment..obviously the DS construction so financially crippled them that simply mobilizing forces to put down riots was impossible

hell local imperial cops couldn't even be dispatched..and don't gimme that EU bullshit about the empire still existing and a decades long war to crush it..that's pure non canon and directly contradicts that scene

The EU claims that the riots were swiftly stopped.
It's possible that a rebel cell was waiting for any confirmation of a success of their mission and quickly threw the message on the local Coruscant facebook if you want, with most likely the clear intent of showing that the power was so weakened that such an event could happen. It's possible that they literally tried to make it look like a "happening" when it was most likely very ready since days or weeks.

[KSW]

Fuck your "obvious". It was constructed in secret, the galaxy did not implode into poverty as a result of it.]

umm what? The Empire was so utterly crippled by the fiasco at Endor that merely the fall of Palpy and his gigantic space ball essentially destroyed it..it ceased to exist entirely in a matter of hours. so much so partying took place on the imperial capital where they threw down his statues

now the empire still had a navy and an army..yet it entirely ceased to exist in a single moment..obviously the DS construction so financially crippled them that simply mobilizing forces to put down riots was impossible

hell local imperial cops couldn't even be dispatched..and don't gimme that EU bullshit about the empire still existing and a decades long war to crush it..that's pure non canon and directly contradicts that scene

To be fair, the Sith-lords WERE the empire.

A single Death Star 2 still outmasses the entire Federation fleet by trillions of times.

do you need windex to clean off your computer screen? maybe a few minutes alone to finish up after that one?

You're right-- that IS one hell of a wank!

[Admiral Breetai]

To be fair, the Sith-lords WERE the empire.

the Dark Crystal ending..only in space?

basically?

You're right-- that IS one hell of a wank!

I'd be worried about cleaning his room after were I his mom

[mojo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTJz8yBxtLw

[Picard]

However, it should be noted that, while Empire didn't seem to have any space stations aside for Death Stars, Starfleets space stations might make, as a wild guess, Starfleet's total tonnage two to twenty times greater.

But then you'd have to add the Empire's ships as well, so we'd be back at the same point...

His point was about Death Star, not about Imperial Fleet. But yes, you're correct about it. Still, main Imperial issue seems to be manpower; with Federation, probably fuel (antimatter). So I doubt either has anywhere close to number of ships they could have built if we look purely at industry.

[Mike DiCenso]

Sigh. I get back after a busy couple days and what do I find? This crap. All right, since you guys can't behave on your own for even a little while, I'm going to have to hand out warnings. Admiral Breetai, Mojo, and MauriceWindows each get a warning.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

Sigh. I get back after a busy couple days and what do I find? This crap. All right, since you guys can't behave on your own for even a little while, I'm going to have to hand out warnings. Admiral Breetai, Mojo, and MauriceWindows each get a warning.
-Mike

it was worth it SWST deserves as much emotional abuse as we can heap on him

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Death Star II has diameter of 180 km.

??

The Death Star was the Empire's armored battle station, nearly twice as big as its predecessor, which Rebel forces had destroyed so many years before- nearly twice as big, but more than twice as powerful.

" The Deathstar, I think, will be a lot more interesting than the one in the first Star Wars — mainly because it is under construction ... Plus, it will be MUCH bigger. In Star Wars, it was really difficult to establish the scale. It was supposed to be miles in diameter, but with a full sphere it was hard to tell. The NEW one is SUPPOSED TO BE MORE like FIVE HUNDRED MILES in diameter, but since we're not dealing with a sphere all the time, we'll be able to establish landmarks and get a better sense of scale. "

Not that it really matters. Whether it's a 160 kilometer battle station in 2 years or a 900 kilometer battle station in 6 months, whether it was constructed with hardly a dent in the imperial budget or bankrupted it, the fact remains that it's more than the Federation could build in decades or even centuries of full scale production. Combined with the presence of trillions of crew and trillions of stormtroopers, there exists a logistical disparity far more lopsided than any war that has ever occured or reasonably could have occured in real life.

[Praeothmin]

Whether it's a 160 kilometer battle station in 2 years or a 900 kilometer battle station in 6 months, whether it was constructed with hardly a dent in the imperial budget or bankrupted it, the fact remains that it's more than the Federation could build in decades or even centuries of full scale production.

Prove it!
With Math, not your wank...

[Mike DiCenso]

Not that it really matters. Whether it's a 160 kilometer battle station in 2 years or a 900 kilometer battle station in 6 months, whether it was constructed with hardly a dent in the imperial budget or bankrupted it, the fact remains that it's more than the Federation could build in decades or even centuries of full scale production. Combined with the presence of trillions of crew and trillions of stormtroopers, there exists a logistical disparity far more lopsided than any war that has ever occurred or reasonably could have occurred in real life.

Nice of you to pull the CINEFEX quote out of context there, SWST. Mr. Oragahn and others have provided the actual, full interview from CINEFEX that puts the 500 mile (800 km) Death Star 2 quote into perspective.

Effectively Edlund didn't even know what the final size of the battlestation was going to be and from his statements about the first Death Star being mere "miles in diameter" in size shows the reliability of a guy who just got on-board and no FX team had been assembled says a great deal.

Robert Anderson and Gary Sarli have [url=http://www.st-v%20sw.net/STSWdeathstarsizes.html]debunked Saxton's scalings[/url] by showing just how erroneous his assumptions were.

Furthermore, I'm looking at giving you another warning for repeating the same, low-canon garbage that is clearly contradicted by the movies, their novelizations, and the TCW. There are no trillions of Storm troopers anywhere, and 5 million Clone troopers was enough to bankrupt the Republic as per TCW "Heroes and Villains". You can't afford trillions, if you can't afford millions. As Praeothimin noted, you can't even show the math or anything else, and all too often you rely on other peoples' flawed work. You've never even have demonstrated that any serious disparity exists.
-Mike

[mojo]

you're getting out of hand, mike. as someone who eagerly follows swst's posts, it is becoming increasingly obvious that you're beginning to blame him for things like providing evidence he's never provided before and has never been warned about before. LIKE THIS.

[Mr. Oragahn]

As per one of the WEG sourcebooks, it's said that the very Imperial Star Destroyer project brought the Empire on the verge of collapse. Same with the Executor. Plus Tarkin suggesting in a personal note to Palpatine that transceivers around the galaxy should be cannibalized.
We have the fresh Strong Economy? thread. Because it's important to know what was the real strain on the Empire's resources.

So, although the total industrial production of SW is superior, things are easily put into perspective.

We also know that pound for pound, military wise, ST ships are above SW ships, be it in terms of firepower or range, and there's a strong possibility that phasers could pass through shields unhampered (1, 2).

And yes, thank you Mike for linking to my thread, at least it proves useful. Saxton dishonestly sacred the CINEFEX quotation as the be and end all piece of evidence for his arguments, but it never had such definitive value in reality.

[Picard]

??

Visuals.

And your first quote may refer to volume or to diameter. Second is probably from some non-canon novel, so...

Combined with the presence of trillions of crew and trillions of stormtroopers, there exists a logistical disparity far more lopsided than any war that has ever occured or reasonably could have occured in real life.

And you know Empire has it from where...?
http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... itary.html
http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... itory.html

Several billions, maybe. Which would be 10:1 at best.

[Mr. Oragahn]

??

Visuals.

And your first quote may refer to volume or to diameter. Second is probably from some non-canon novel, so...

Combined with the presence of trillions of crew and trillions of stormtroopers, there exists a logistical disparity far more lopsided than any war that has ever occured or reasonably could have occured in real life.

And you know Empire has it from where...?
http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... itary.html
http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... itory.html

Several billions, maybe. Which would be 10:1 at best.

Pic, what point are you trying to get across with that territory page of yours, exactly?
Last time, I objected to your power and firepower calculations as I found them ludicrous. I didn't believe I needed to explain why, since I think it was fairly obvious, so I didn't continue. Are you really thinking one can take your work seriously after claiming that the galaxy is 40 LY wide only?
All that based on some fancy placement of the Rishi maze...

ANH:
HAN: It's the ship that made the Kessel run in less than twelve
parsecs!

AOTC:
DEXTER JETTSTER: No, it's beyond the Outer Rim. I'd say
about twelve parsecs outside the Rishi Maze, toward the
south. It should be easy to find, even for those droids in
your archive. These Kaminoans keep to themselves. They're
cloners. Damned good ones, too.

PADMÉ: They'll never get there in time to save him. They
have to come halfway across the galaxy. Look, Geonosis is
less than a parsec away.

Do you know that planets in two different systems are certainly, at the very least, separated by more than ten light years?

[KSW]

To be fair, the Sith-lords WERE the empire.

the Dark Crystal ending..only in space?

Well they were using Sith-powers to stay in power and to keep the Senate from re-grouping; they were the ones behind the Rebellion.
Once they were gone, the Republic would re-form. The Empire didn't have enough forces to coerce that many worlds, that's why they needed the Death Star.

You're right-- that IS one hell of a wank!

I'd be worried about cleaning his room after were I his mom

I'm sure she never cleans that room in the basement.