Challenge: Invade the Star Wars galaxy

[Mr. Oragahn]

The war was phony, staged. The building of ships and creation of clones had been going on for ages, while Sidious and Dooku knew that the confederation ships were parked at Geonosis for quite some time as well.

So if the war was "phony, staged", how is it indicitive of the standard numerical values and levels of the Star Wars galaxy?

WHAT??? Could you please rephrase that?
I proved that there was preparation. Period.

How would this be relevant to the imperial starfleet, whose war with the Rebel alliance was certainly not "staged"?

Why do you talk about that? I was pointing out, contrary to your point, that there was preparation prior to the deployment of Republic forces.

Don't try those silly slimy fish tactics on me.

Besides, although irrelevant here, you may want to take a look at The Force Unleashed. Lucas actually worked on those games. You'll learn a thing or two from the plot about staged wars.

Hardly a whim, hardly a surprise either, save for the Jedi, but they were totally out of the loop regarding the preparation. They were like admirals suddenly dropped at the head of fleets, not the politicians and corporatists who orchestrated the whole business.

Exactly my point. Your justification for the Republic's greater readiness compared to the Federation is that the former was far better prepared for war, which obviously is not true. The Kaminoians and the contractors hired to build Acclamators had absolutely no clue that they would be used at the time and place that they would be. Most likely weren't even certain that a war would occur at all.

Is is not your point, dipshit. It has never been. Your point was that Republic forces weren't prepared, that it all was a surprise, and it happened on a whim (remember that?).
Don't try to backpedal.

1. Although they certainly had a better empirical background, the UFP had not gone through such a war, and the fresh fish they needed to populate all those new ships with -which they had started building recently- hardly had any real experience either.

2. I don't know anything about the neutral zone. However, the Jedi's knowledge doesn't matter. It so doesn't matter that they accepted taking the reigns over a fleet and entire legions that pop'd out of nowhere as far as they were concerned. For all intents and purposes, it's almost like if they jumped into a war with no prior knowledge of what to do, while the people they sided with knew what they were doing.

3. Rally what? The fleet of 55 ships obviously was already there. If Kenobi hadn't found Geonosis, the info would have been leaked sooner or later anyway, because such was the plan.

4. Irrelevant, unless you explain why this matters.

5. Cold War is not active war. Was the production of US and Soviet ships, fighters, vehicles, ammunition and other weapons as intensive as in the middle of WWII for example?

1. So you're admitting that starfleet's preparation and readiness is crap, even right after a Cold War with a dangerous foe. Thank you? Do you think that the clones were ready for war either? When none of them had ever seen the rest of the galaxy before, none had ever served in real combat before, and were suddenly called up on a whim to battle a foe they'd never encountered before?

2. Nice attempt at diverting the subject. We can discuss the questionable intelligence of the Jedi Order in another debate. For now, the fact is that the Republic fleet responded to within hours to a random incident in the Outer Rim with more ships than the Federation could in a hotly contested territory. They sent more ships a farther, more obscure distance in less time.

3. The Acclamators existed, by whoever said that they were "prepared"? They were likely docked at a port. Which leads us to our next point...

4. ...that the clones were likely in the middle of training excercises, eating and sleeping. Within hours they had to scramble to their ships and run off to a random point in the galaxy.

5. Except that the Republic during Geonosis wasn't WW2 America, it was America the day before Pearl Harbor. Readied, but not as readied as Cold War America (nor WW2 America). Remember that the war had yet to actually begin.

1. Where did I admit that Starfleet's prep was crap? I merely gave you an idea of how the war on that scale was genuinely new to them, and that the crews they'd put in those plenty of extra ships wouldn't have much experience at all.
That is what happens when you must form lots of crews and bataillons in a heart beat.

2. All Republic clones were produced in the far reaches of the outer rim, wild space. Acclamators obviously had to be somewhere as well, and I don't know enough EU to know where they were parked.
Check your star maps.
And all of this was already planned, since Sidious and co knew where Geonosis and Kamino were. Despite a plan prepared for that long, only 55 ships were available.
The Jedi probably hated what they had to do without knowing a bolt about what was really going on.

3. Even at full speed, it takes KDY like 5 months to thousands of Acclamators, cutting ALL other production lines. Under normal speed and conditions, it's something that would take much much longer.

4. The novelization and the movie has Lama Su say the clones were ready.

5. Fail. The very fact that Acclamators were already being built and more than a million clones grown and mature prior to even official war being declared clearly shows that the Republic was more ready than the US. So now, please answer my question and show me that the production of the US in WWII was similar to the Cold War era. Remember, you made the claim about the cold war, not me. Don't try to erase your tracks here.

I'm taking any information from any source which Saxton approached in a way or another with extreme caution. That is all. Like it or not, I don't care. I made my case clear here.

You should approach all sources with extreme caution, not just the ones that you do not like.

No, there's no reason to take all sources with exterme caution. Exterme caution is for shit that is extremely suspicious, like all Saxtonite drek. Get the difference?
I'm not going to be extremely cautious with facts established by Lucas for example.

I don't know, but it seems that after four seasons of TCWS, Lucas seems to think his universe is quite small.
Few clone squads, small engagements, etc. Even Christophsis didn't feature any impressive deployment of forces. Same for Umbara and probably just as much for the second attack on Geonosis.

Right. That's why George Lucas imagined up a 320-900 kilometer in diameter Death Star being built in under a year. That's why his depiction of Coruscant involves an entire planet's surface being covered by 2 kilometer tall skyscrapers and billions of airspeeders. That's why he licensed Saxton's works.

The DSII can't be more than 200 km wide, tops.
Coruscant's been built over thousands of generations.
Lucas doesn't Saxton and never hired him personally.
As for the rest, I don't care. He presented us an universe the way it is, that's all. If you don't like it, stop watching Star Wars and focus on Teletubbies or that gay arse shit My Little Pony.

That appeal to authority doesn't move me.
Saxton's PhD didn't save him from making impressive mistakes and massively cherry picking his evidence. Don't be fooled by his white blouse.

"making impresive mistakes"? Tell me where Saxton makes a mistake equivalent to equating the tensile strength of durasteel to rubber using a non-existant measurement.

Tell you what? You don't listen. We've been telling you all you need to know since you registered. This board is choke full of material that is against Saxton's ideas.
Are you going to pretend you didn't know that?

1. The Republic mobilized thousands of ships, far more than any Federation fleet ever assembled for a battle.
2. They did this in response to a surprise attack from a tactical standpoint.

Relevance?
The Republic has been around for a thousand generations. See, you lose, even at stupid games.

A better analogy would be that the Republic navy had been around for a thou-...oops, I forgot. For around a few thousand days, wasn't it? In secret?

Good lord. Could you at least try not to destroy my post in order to make my replies still correspond to the right pieces I quoted from you?
Geez.

The senate was out of the loop as well. They had no say on the building of ships and growing of clones.
Try again.

Which is more evidence against your assertion that the Republic army at Geonosis was a well prepared army just waiting to launch to Geonosis at any given moment. Quite frankly Yoda acted illegally, assaulting Geonosis within hours without knowledge from the Senate and without knowing that Palpatine knew.

I don't care if Yoda acted illegally or if the Senate prefers chocolate ice cream.
Republic forces were being prepared without them knowing.
That is the point.
How you can read my point as "more evidence against your assertion that the Republic army at Geonosis was a well prepared army just waiting to launch to Geonosis at any given moment" is really fucking mind boggling.

Aside from the massive warships and the large droid factories producing churning out countless battle droids of course.
I gotta wonder if you even watched AOTC, really.

I did, and I quite remember the fact that Kenobi was fucking surprised when he discovered the massive droid armies on Geonosis.

And as I said, the Jedi's lack of knowledge of the production of ships and troops of both sides is completely irrelevant.

Jedi, Kaminoans, Senate, galactic population as a whole, they don't matter when it comes to gauging preparedness.

Really, how is that hard to understand?

Kaminoans aren't important. They had a contract, they produced clones. Period. When, where and how their clones would be used wasn't much of their problem, besides growing and training them in time.

And presumably, they contracted others to produce Acclamators. And presumably, those contractors may not have even known what they were for.

And?
Who gives? What are you trying to do, aside from desperately flaying around in order to mask the fact that you just can't concede the fact that the Republic forces were being prepared since a long time. Damn, MILLIONS of viewers got it when watching the movie, you cumpot.

There's no intelligent debate here. It's just talking to a wall of dried feces.

See the evidence I provided. Both fleets were prepared. The CIS prepared its fleet, and Palpatine piled up clones and warships, hidden in the budget of domestic security (like, you know, for defense of nearby grounds, like Coruscant *wink wink*).
No lack of preparedness on either side.

I was speaking on tactical grounds, Mr. O. Or are you claiming that a nation at war cannot possibly be taken off guard? The Battle of Coruscant was a surprise attack, the Republic was caught off guard and still mobilized thousands of warships. Meanwhile, the Federation has to spend weeks to prepare to gather a few hundred warships.

Ooowwww now it's "tactical" grouuunnds. The magic word that's gonna save you from being a total fool in this debate.
How precious.

Both sides were well prepared. Suck it up, SWSNSFSDST.

See, I actually accepted the number of ships supposedly coming from the ICS.
I'll now see, with following quotes, if you actually did the same regarding the fact coming from Traviss' book.

So am I! Traviss's book doesn't state that the droid army numbers are hoaxes, it states that certain characters thought that the droid army numbers are hoaxes. There is a very crucial difference in fallibility.

Aside from the fact that the characters say that they made a shit ton of research to back up their thoughts.
It's better than some mere speculation. In universe, it is what you could call solid journalism.

And it fits with the ratio given by Dooku in the very first episode of TCWS anyway.
Quadrillions of battle droids just doesn't work.

What the hell are you talking about? The phrase "decimal point" was quite clearly singular.

And? It'a decimal point error. We don't know how far that error went. But it has to be pretty significant to make a difference between nothing and suddenly allowing for the budget of thousands of Acclamators!

There's no basis to calculate that many clones. For one, Acclamators-I crews are 700 individuals per ship (The Official Star Wars Fact File). Nothing is said about the amount of clones who'd be used there. Considering that the ships would be used for a space battle, there's no reason to include numbers for troop deployment.
We don't know if Besany was thinking about the class-I or class-II Acclamator. The later variant was far less empty and lost 80% of its space it could dedicate to troops (Starships of the Galaxy, 2007).
In general, the first type was the most produced. Besany couldn't know that Palpatine planned to use them in a large space battle. Actually, she couldn't even know that Palpatine was building Venators. Which means we go from few thousand Acclamators, likely type-I (the usual model), to the equivalent in Venators. Obviously, less, since Venators are bigger and closer to warships, in comparison to the type-I Acclamators, and would contain more hardware inside than the relatively very empty Acclamators.

They have a crew of 700 clones per ship. Each ship contains 16,000 clones for deployment. Since Acclamators are transport ships, albeit ones that can second as battle-ships, it would be wasteful to not be able to hold at least near 16,000 clones per ship.

What is there in that head of yours? Cheese? Porridge? Hellooo??
I didn't consider troops because that's not what you needed for your own calculation. For thousands of ships, you need the necessary crews. There's no idea that those ships would or could even be filled with enough clones.
When you look at how Venators were rather densely populated in TCWS, it's rather clear that no reason to go for the cramped cargo figures.

Even going by your numbers, we get 48 M deemed enough to occupy thousands of worlds.

Presuming that this quote is in the same context as your other quote, and presuming that the text is not figurative (which I garuntee that you would use should this quote have supported Wars or have been one from Trek), this doesn't mean much, given that an Acclamator being above the occupied planet is a very good way to deter resistance, even if your ground forces are heavily outnumbered.

He was strictly speaking of clones, not ships.
Nice try though.

Rothana does the LAATs mainly. KDY does the large ships. Kuat is not your average "single planet" you know. It's not even skirting the outer rim. Did you miss the piece when I went to the length of remembering you, a few hours before your last post, that Kuat as in the Core Worlds?

It is in the core worlds, but it is near the Outer Rim.

Then it is in the Core Worlds, not Outer Rim. Thank you.

But no matter, the fact is that Kuat alone matches a decent percentage of Starfleet's entire industrial might.

And Kuat is fucking huge, and yet, even after refocusing all their might of warship building, they can only get few thousands Acclamators under half a year.

Acclamators are at least five times the average size of the Federation ships at Worf 359, and a single planet, however important, churns one out once every 5 months, whereas the entire Federation takes a year to churn out 38 ones smaller by at least a margin of 5. So Kuat matches at least 5.4% of the entire Federation's military industrial input?

Acclamators are cargo ships which are extremely empty. The rarer and bombardment capable variant uses much more room for combat hardware, which ends with removing 80% of the room devoting to troop carriage.
As I said, that makes a shit lot of difference in taking in consideration volumetrics.
In comparison, Trek ships are quite cramped, although very skinny.

Still, yes, in overall mass, the Republic is on top, and so is the Empire since it relied on Kuat.
However, bring down Kuat and you gain a shit lot. And hurting one single planet I think is something the Federation could easily do.
It's not like KDY is a big secret.

Traviss has provided a good enough rationalization,

Feel free to show me where she rationalizes the logic of fighting a galactic war with 4 million clone troopers.

That's not what I was talking about. She rationalized the quintillion droids.
The novelization gives +1 M clones ready and some more hundred thousand units down the nursery line.
Multiplied with Dooku's ratio, Traviss is certainly closer to the truth than Saxton.
Sorry, that's how Lucas went.

and there's nothing in TCWS that goes against that.

There is in something called math and other C canon sources. For example, the idea that there is an omniscient presence of clone troopers on Coruscant. If by "omniscient" the text means "a one to one hundred ratio", there would have to be several hundred billion clones policing the capital alone.

Yet right in the middle of the war, when we got glimpses of Coruscant in TCWS, there wasn't much of that omniscience.
And maths are fine. They work with the low numbers because they support each other rather well.

Your desperate and pathetic fighting would be worth something if you had like racks of evidence, but even Lucas disagrees with you.
I can't say I'm exactly happy with the way he portrays his universe (I even think he's a lardarse cunt), but that's the way it goes.

In fact, the numbers seen in the movie and the show agree with that. Like the clones outnumbered 200 to 1,

I find it hilarious that you can postulate non-existent hyperbole out of "molten slag", but fail to recognize the figurative speech here.

Because I can actually explain why molten slag needs not be taken literally, while I don't see anything to dispute Dooku's ratio.

Anywhere the clones land and fight the Confederation of Independent Systems, you don't see gazillion clones and millions more battle droids.
In fact, numbers often are pretty even.

or the importance of saving 60,000 wounded clones from a medical station in a strategical area in the outer rim.

I was not aware that saving 60,000 lives wasn't important regardless of the practical costs.

When you can have, what? Billions (omniscient presence on Coruscant and all that), 60,000 wounded when you can produce more clones faster, that's not much of a relevant loss.
Now, when you have only a few thousands, there's quite a difference.

60,000 is what? The cargo of a handful Acclamators, tops?

It was a major medical station, so important that a Kaminoan was there to supervise the clones' recovery.

Well, I don't want to restart the whole clone count debate anyway, we have enough threads and posts about that here. I just provided the line for the sake of completism.

Let me ask you this question:

If you had, hypothetically, only the movies and film-novels to base your judgment, what would your estimation as to the size of the Grand Army of the Republic be? Do you think that, if you could only deduce it logically, 4 million would be around your ballpark estimate?

Anything beyond what is given would be speculation, and with the sources you list, we only get a million clones on the start, with hundreds of thousands more coming.
I wouldn't give the CIS much more droids either, considering the density of their battalions on Geonosis or PauCity.

Furthermore, even if the 4 million clone army figure is canon (despite being ridiculous), it merely establishes that the Republic army is not made up of mainly clones:

The New Essential Chronology

"Conscription, however, was a necessary reality. Countless beings of every species became draftees into the Grand Army of the Republic."

Good thing.
Not very supported by higher canon but good thing nonetheless. However, it's bound to be minimal since we only see clones and it wouldn't be Clone Wars if conscripts were very relevant.

The Essential Atlas and Dark Empire tell us that there are 100 quadrillion sapient beings in the Galactic Republic. If the conscription accounted for 1% of the populace (ridiculously low compared to peacetime volunteer rates), the Republic would have an army of 1 quadrillion soldiers backing them up.

Your math is wrong, dickhead.
We already gave you numbers for the Republic's population. Also, the GAR is uniquely made of humans thus far. So you can shave off all those alien species. Considering the thousands of species present on Coruscant alone, that doesn't leave much.

Small and yet that's all there was.
See how it actually hurts you.

Not at all, given that this implies that actual SW militaries that aren't fighting proxy wars like you claim that the clones were are much larger.

There's no such evidence. It's small and it's small. Small like small. Smallishly small. S.M.A.L.L. S-M-A-L-L.

Mostly small ships in comparison to Republic warships,

But still decently sized compared to Federation ships.

And yet easily busted. Federation ships have better ranges, better weapons, more weapon types and MUCH more firepower pound for pound.
Boo.

and easily dispatched if they were to be brought up against Federation ships.

In case if this was not made clear to you, I was attempting to avoid the issue of firepower. But even if you use Darkstar's weapon yields, Star Wars would still win through sheer rate of numbers and a faster transportation and communications system.

Not if the ships can't do shit before they get axed. The firepower, range and versatility in Federation weaponry would even allow one single Galaxy-class to own several Venators.
That's what you got with silly big far ships that move slowly, have weak sauce guns and crappy accuracy.

In theory, range is good that two Galaxy-class ships, fully armed (like +230 or 250 torps), staying out of range of SW ships, could have singlehandedly owned both CIS and GAR ships at the battle of Coruscant.

That's the beauty of the advantage of range and firepower.

True.

You think?
For example, you think that an army capable of deploying thousands of soldiers wouldn't be steamrolled by an army capable of deploying 10^9 more troops?
Are you daft or something?

Circular reasoning. If the droid army does really have quintillions or quadrillions of battle droids, then the Grand Army of the Republic is clearly larger than a few million clone troopers.

To fit with ratios, there'd be trillions or quadrillions of clones.
Whatever.

Quadrillions of battle droids makes more sense than millions of battle droids, and is supported by equal, if not higher, canon.

Ha. Here we go again with your support from higher canon.
Then point me out where you get the impression that the CIS really has access to that many battle droids in the movie, novelization or TCWS.
Tell me, Grand Lord Neuron, how the fuck could the GAR hope win at Geonosis with only 55 Acclamators and their respective clones if the CIS could churn out droids as fast as we saw in the movies so as to already have quadrillions at the beginning of a war that only last two short years, and also, therefore, have all the necessary ships to carry them?

Why the fuck those super speeds you speak of didn't allow the CIS to swarm the GAR in return with like 1% of those quadrillion/quintillion droids? Why the fuck the second battle of Geonosis, a very important world, of course, involved so few ships and troops on both sides?

Is that your best evidence? Bullshit?

You continue to support a theory (1oo million battle droids) that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever solely for the purpose of stacking the odds against Wars as much as humanely possible.

It's fact, putrescent shitbag.

Why not accept Saxton's rationalization that there are more than one "Grand Army"? Does this not make more sense than a galactic war being fought with less troops than the United States raised during World War 2?

Oh yeah, what a marvelous rationalization.
Absolutely ALL sources of ALL canon speak of one Grand Army of the Republic, but for the sake of Saxton's bruised ego and thirst for penis enlargement material, we'd have to take his (certainly non continuity-breaking) theory at face value?

You're a sad clown, really.

Conclusion: you don't get it. There's like an entire galaxy that could be mined, but obviously it isn't.

Since you claim that Traviss successfully "rationalized" an OOU omniscient narrator, please feel free to explain why this could happen within the bounds of all common sense.

Mmm lemme see.... presently available economical and industrial might maybe?
Don't you realize that your impossibly retarded argument can be applied to ANY SF universe? Hey, why the fuck the Federation doesn't mine its entire sector down to the last particle?
(I'm obviously limiting myself to Trek and Wars here but feel free to take any other fictional universe in example!)

The statement is contextual: it cannot be done with the actual industry and economy of the galaxy. You can't arbitrarily pull the resources, fuel and organization needed to build, move and maintain quadrillions of droids out of nowhere at the present state of affairs.

The ICS2 states that billions of planets are mined by individual mining corporations. There is neither canon evidence to bluntly contradict this nor any illogic behind the statement.

The ICS2 is pure Saxton bullshit. Of course, he wrote it all!
Course of action: absolute denial.
(and yes, you can whine all you want, it doesn't matter)

And here ends this silly discussion with our favorite troll fag.

[Praeothmin]

Thank you SWST, for your latest reply proves to me you are indeed willfully dense...

This allows me to realize I should stop wasting my time debating you...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Both sides were well prepared. Suck it up, SWSNSFSDST.

Yes, both sides were prepared for war. Equally so. [well, except that Palpatine very likely intentionally inhibited both sides]. But being prepared for war does not mean that you cannot possibly be taken off guard. Are you unable to comprehend the existence of surprise attacks happening in the middle of a war, when both sides are “well prepared”? The Republic was prepared strategically, tactically speaking it had no idea that Grevious was about to assault the Galactic Capitol.
But even if they did, it doesn’t help you one fucking bit. Because it shows that, with equal preparation, SW fleets can send MORE ships (thousands) FASTER than the Federation did in battles against the Dominion. When all factors are equal, when both sides are mobilized for war, Wars can send more ships to defend planets faster.

I shall respond to the rest of your post later.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Both sides were well prepared. Suck it up, SWSNSFSDST.

Yes, both sides were prepared for war. Equally so. [well, except that Palpatine very likely intentionally inhibited both sides]. But being prepared for war does not mean that you cannot possibly be taken off guard. Are you unable to comprehend the existence of surprise attacks happening in the middle of a war, when both sides are “well prepared”?

Irrelevant. The attack by the GAR on Geonosis was a surprise to the CIS, that is all. It doesn't undermine the fact that logistically, there was plenty of preparation covered first.
That is all.

The Republic was prepared strategically, tactically speaking it had no idea that Grevious was about to assault the Galactic Capitol.

Obviously you can't read a dot. Palpatine planned that a looooong time ago. He even let himself get captured.
Again, it only was a surprise to those who were not aware that Coruscant was a big trap (for the CIS) or about to be attacked (for anyone else, from GAR to citizens).
Ships and crews were all ready.

Which is the point that matters, and the point you're trying to evade. But you can't.

But even if they did, it doesn’t help you one fucking bit. Because it shows that, with equal preparation, SW fleets can send MORE ships (thousands) FASTER than the Federation did in battles against the Dominion. When all factors are equal, when both sides are mobilized for war, Wars can send more ships to defend planets faster.

And I never denied that the SW forces had access to impressive FTL speeds. Try to attack on the points I made, not strawmen or red herrings so you can miserably collect some points.

Besides, I also pointed out that these super FTL speeds were available under several conditions.

I shall respond to the rest of your post later.

Not sure if it's going to be worth anything.
Perhaps you should just quit.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

And I never denied that the SW forces had access to impressive FTL speeds and therefore has greater logistical capabilities.

Fixed it for you.

Then why do you argue me? Clearly you concede Star Wars's vastly superior logistical capabilities, which was precisely my point. Do you feel the need to argue everything that I state or claim just because you cannot possibly get yourself to give the galaxy far far away any credit?

If I were to claim that the Galactic Empire could easily crush modern day Earth on this board, no doubt I would have many angry debaters demanding proof.

[Mr. Oragahn]

And I never denied that the SW forces had access to impressive FTL speeds and therefore has greater logistical capabilities.

Fixed it for you.

Oh. So you needed to "fix" my sentence to understand that, yes, it did imply that in terms of logistics.
Are you new or something, because I believed it was quite a given that transit speeds were an essential aspect of logistics.

Then why do you argue me?

Because you say plenty of stupid things and lie.
That's why.
It doesn't mean we can't agree on like 1% of what you type.

Clearly you concede Star Wars's vastly superior logistical capabilities, which was precisely my point.

It was not just about that. Don't try to smudge things here.

[Admiral Breetai]

so about them trillions of ships?

seriously this is..the tenth time he's ducked me on this I'm sure mike you can consider that a ban goodness

[StarWarsStarTrek]

WHAT??? Could you please rephrase that?
I proved that there was preparation. Period.

Yes, there was preparation. But by your own admission, Palpatine was intentionally inhibiting the GAR (and the CIS)'s capabilities.

Why do you talk about that? I was pointing out, contrary to your point, that there was preparation prior to the deployment of Republic forces.

Don't try those silly slimy fish tactics on me.

Besides, although irrelevant here, you may want to take a look at The Force Unleashed. Lucas actually worked on those games. You'll learn a thing or two from the plot about staged wars.

You don't understand that there are multiple forms of preparation, do you? The clone troopers were "prepared" in that they were trained and well equipped. The Acclamators were "prepared" in that they were operational. Nobody was "prepared" in that "expected to have to run off to Geonosis to start a galactic war[/i]"

Is is not your point, dipshit. It has never been. Your point was that Republic forces weren't prepared, that it all was a surprise, and it happened on a whim (remember that?).
Don't try to backpedal.

Are you this fucking dense? Do you realize that being well equipped, trained and having operational ships does not mean that you are "prepared" in the tactical sense when you suddenly hear that you must scramble to your ships and go to a random outer rim planet to fight a giant army of robots made by disaffected corporations led by a former Jedi?

Were the clone troopers thinking "gee, I'm preparing so that I can rush to Geonosis in five hours"? More like "ok, I'm training to be a soldier in an army for the Republic in case if they nee-HOLY SHIT I HAVE TO GO NOW!"

1. Where did I admit that Starfleet's prep was crap? I merely gave you an idea of how the war on that scale was genuinely new to them, and that the crews they'd put in those plenty of extra ships wouldn't have much experience at all.
That is what happens when you must form lots of crews and bataillons in a heart beat.

Sending fifteen ships to counter twenty implies that they could not send any more. Having only fifteen ships to enforce a Neutral Zone is pathetic, yes.

2. All Republic clones were produced in the far reaches of the outer rim, wild space. Acclamators obviously had to be somewhere as well, and I don't know enough EU to know where they were parked.
Check your star maps.
And all of this was already planned, since Sidious and co knew where Geonosis and Kamino were. Despite a plan prepared for that long, only 55 ships were available.
The Jedi probably hated what they had to do without knowing a bolt about what was really going on.

Sidious had it planned. Whoever said that he told anybody other than Dooku (and even Dooku was kept out of the inner loop)?

3. Even at full speed, it takes KDY like 5 months to thousands of Acclamators, cutting ALL other production lines. Under normal speed and conditions, it's something that would take much much longer.

Show me where, please, it is stated that KDY cut all over production lines. Because obviously it doesn't have to supply itself, or defend itself, or produce other ships like Venators or Victories.

4. The novelization and the movie has Lama Su say the clones were ready.

Are you this fucking obtuse? Every competent standing army is "ready". This does not equate to "expecting to rush off to combat at any given hour".

5. Fail. The very fact that Acclamators were already being built and more than a million clones grown and mature prior to even official war being declared clearly shows that the Republic was more ready than the US. So now, please answer my question and show me that the production of the US in WWII was similar to the Cold War era. Remember, you made the claim about the cold war, not me. Don't try to erase your tracks here.

And the fact that aircraft carriers, frigates, submarines and tanks were already being built and more than a million soldiers being trained even prior to official war being declared clearly shows that the US was more ready than the Republic. See how your logic is pathetically ridiculous?

No, there's no reason to take all sources with exterme caution. Exterme caution is for shit that is extremely suspicious, like all Saxtonite drek. Get the difference?
I'm not going to be extremely cautious with facts established by Lucas for example.

So a space age civilization having millions of ship is "extremely suspicious", but a galactic war being fought with 4 million clones and a construction material used to make moon sized battle stations being as hard as rubber is completely fine.

The DSII can't be more than 200 km wide, tops.

Oohhhh. So if it's just a 200 kilometer long small moon, it's totally not indicative of enormous scale.

Coruscant's been built over thousands of generations.

And they've never, ever torn down old ones for new skyscrapers? They've never had to run maintenance? They don't have to produce billions of more airspeeders every year as the planet's populace reaches driving age?

Lucas doesn't Saxton and never hired him personally.

So what? His company did.

As for the rest, I don't care. He presented us an universe the way it is, that's all. If you don't like it, stop watching Star Wars and focus on Teletubbies or that gay arse shit My Little Pony.

Do you have a problem with gay people, Mr. O?

Tell you what? You don't listen. We've been telling you all you need to know since you registered. This board is choke full of material that is against Saxton's ideas.
Are you going to pretend you didn't know that?

Nice evasion. Even if Saxton's work were bullshit, they will never be as bullshit as durasteel being as weak as rubber and kilos being used to measure tensile strength.

Good lord. Could you at least try not to destroy my post in order to make my replies still correspond to the right pieces I quoted from you?
Geez.

Awaiting response.

I don't care if Yoda acted illegally or if the Senate prefers chocolate ice cream.
Republic forces were being prepared without them knowing.
That is the point.
How you can read my point as "more evidence against your assertion that the Republic army at Geonosis was a well prepared army just waiting to launch to Geonosis at any given moment" is really fucking mind boggling.

The Republic forces were preparing in the case of a war, but did not know whether there would be one. The cold army US was preparing in the case of a war, but did not know whether there would be one. What the fuck is the difference?

And?
Who gives? What are you trying to do, aside from desperately flaying around in order to mask the fact that you just can't concede the fact that the Republic forces were being prepared since a long time. Damn, MILLIONS of viewers got it when watching the movie, you cumpot.

There's no intelligent debate here. It's just talking to a wall of dried feces.

Yes, they were being prepared for a long time; a decade or two. Are you saying that starfleet had not been around for more than a decade or two?

Ooowwww now it's "tactical" grouuunnds. The magic word that's gonna save you from being a total fool in this debate.
How precious.

Both sides were well prepared. Suck it up, SWSNSFSDST.

Clearly you have our two feats confused. I was referring to the Battle of Coruscant, which was late into the war, true. But:

In a stunning move, the fiendish droid leader, General Grievous, has swept into the Republic capital

Translation: they were taken off guard tactically speaking (strategically speaking, they were mobilized for war).

And even if they were not, they still mobilized thousands of ships. The Federation never does this, not when they too were prepared and fully mobilized for war during late DS9.

Aside from the fact that the characters say that they made a shit ton of research to back up their thoughts.

And Saxton did not?

It's better than some mere speculation. In universe, it is what you could call solid journalism.

Yes, many solid journalists have come to different conclusions. Many conspiracy nuts have done extensive research and are actually very intelligent.

And it fits with the ratio given by Dooku in the very first episode of TCWS anyway.
Quadrillions of battle droids just doesn't work.

Quadrillions of battle droids is just as canonical and infinitely more believable in fighting a galactic war over millions of planets than 100 million.

And? It'a decimal point error. We don't know how far that error went. But it has to be pretty significant to make a difference between nothing and suddenly allowing for the budget of thousands of Acclamators!

The least in which it could have gone is the tens digit. Do some basic math, and we get a few million Acclamators.

What is there in that head of yours? Cheese? Porridge? Hellooo??
I didn't consider troops because that's not what you needed for your own calculation. For thousands of ships, you need the necessary crews. There's no idea that those ships would or could even be filled with enough clones.
When you look at how Venators were rather densely populated in TCWS, it's rather clear that no reason to go for the cramped cargo figures.

Why would you produce several times more transports than you have troops to fill them?

He was strictly speaking of clones, not ships.
Nice try though.

Of course, feel free to prove this.

Then it is in the Core Worlds, not Outer Rim. Thank you.

I never denied this. You are not welcome.

Acclamators are cargo ships which are extremely empty.

And ST starships are not? Spare me a break.

The rarer and bombardment capable variant uses much more room for combat hardware, which ends with removing 80% of the room devoting to troop carriage.
As I said, that makes a shit lot of difference in taking in consideration volumetrics.
In comparison, Trek ships are quite cramped, although very skinny.

No, not really. Not by enough to offset the fact that Acclamators are far larger.

Still, yes, in overall mass, the Republic is on top, and so is the Empire since it relied on Kuat.
However, bring down Kuat and you gain a shit lot. And hurting one single planet I think is something the Federation could easily do.
It's not like KDY is a big secret.

Too bad for you that Kuat alone matches a not insignificant portion of the entire Federation industry. Important is it is, it is one out of many millions.

That's not what I was talking about. She rationalized the quintillion droids.
The novelization gives +1 M clones ready and some more hundred thousand units down the nursery line.
Multiplied with Dooku's ratio, Traviss is certainly closer to the truth than Saxton.
Sorry, that's how Lucas went.

Sorry, I'm not accepting it as a "good rationalization" until she provides reasoning for 100 million battle droids fighting a galactic war.

Since she fails to do this, why don't you?

Yet right in the middle of the war, when we got glimpses of Coruscant in TCWS, there wasn't much of that omniscience.
And maths are fine. They work with the low numbers because they support each other rather well.

We got glimpses of the exterior skyscrapers of Coruscant and some plot central locations. How is this relevant?

Math is not fine, because occupying a single planet of, say, 5 billion with 4 million clone troopers is impossible.

Your desperate and pathetic fighting would be worth something if you had like racks of evidence, but even Lucas disagrees with you.
I can't say I'm exactly happy with the way he portrays his universe (I even think he's a lardarse cunt), but that's the way it goes.

On the contrary, LFL went out and stated that no definite size will ever be provided.

Meaning that, if it isn't fact, we can only speculate rationally based on given evidence. And quadrillions of battle droids is far more believable to fight for a galaxy than 100 million.

Because I can actually explain why molten slag needs not be taken literally, while I don't see anything to dispute Dooku's ratio.

Other than that it's used figuratively in everyday life all the time?

Anywhere the clones land and fight the Confederation of Independent Systems, you don't see gazillion clones and millions more battle droids.
In fact, numbers often are pretty even.

Actually, you see hundreds (thousands?) fighting in about 10 or so square kilometers of surface of the entire planet. Once again, do the math.

When you can have, what? Billions (omniscient presence on Coruscant and all that), 60,000 wounded when you can produce more clones faster, that's not much of a relevant loss.
Now, when you have only a few thousands, there's quite a difference.

60,000 is what? The cargo of a handful Acclamators, tops?

It was a major medical station, so important that a Kaminoan was there to supervise the clones' recovery.

So then I suppose that we should not have done anything about the 911 victims, because we can get more immigrants more quickly, si? I guess that you should never help out a wounded soldiers because gah there's millions more!

Anything beyond what is given would be speculation,

No fucking duh. But speculation is not always complete guessing.

and with the sources you list, we only get a million clones on the start, with hundreds of thousands more coming.
I wouldn't give the CIS much more droids either, considering the density of their battalions on Geonosis or PauCity.

So you would never even consider the oddity of these million "units" fighting for control over a galaxy?

Good thing.
Not very supported by higher canon but good thing nonetheless. However, it's bound to be minimal since we only see clones and it wouldn't be Clone Wars if conscripts were very relevant.

Silly semantics, the names of wars are almost never accurate depictions of the real statistics of the war. How the fuck could galaxy wide conscription be "minimal"?

Your math is wrong, dickhead.
We already gave you numbers for the Republic's population.

Fine. 1% of, say, ten trillion = 100 billion. You still fail.

Also, the GAR is uniquely made of humans thus far.

Because we only see the clone troopers, Einstein, because that's what gets ratings. Why the fuck do you presume that the Republic would only conscript humans? This is not the Empire (and even they hired non-humans), and there are plenty of species far more suitable to combat. Could you imagine the PR consequences of favoring a single race? Could you imagine the stupidity of doing this during wartime?

So you can shave off all those alien species. Considering the thousands of species present on Coruscant alone, that doesn't leave much.

What do you mean "doesn't leave much"? If humans only consisted of 10% of the relevant population (even though they are clearly shown to be the majority), this doesn't shave off my numbers by an order of magnitude.

There's no such evidence. It's small and it's small. Small like small. Smallishly small. S.M.A.L.L. S-M-A-L-L.

If the GAR is "small" within SW standards, that would mean that the imperial military is L-A-R-G-E. It would also mean that, if Palpatine found the Federation to be a real threat, he would stop intentionally restraining the military's size and bring it up to more rational numbers.

And yet easily busted. Federation ships have better ranges, better weapons, more weapon types and MUCH more firepower pound for pound.
Boo.

Uh huh. Go on wanking off to pictures of the ICS being declared non-canon. SW Slave Ship established gigaton level weaponry well before Saxton even started the TCs.

Indeed, the only thing needed for Saxtonian firepower to be completely confirmed is if "molten slag" were literal. Since interpreting it literally is just as valid as interpreting it figuratively and has no disproof against it, the fact that it just happens to fit Slave Ship statistics is...it's just a coincidence!

Not if the ships can't do shit before they get axed. The firepower, range and versatility in Federation weaponry would even allow one single Galaxy-class to own several Venators.

You know, I could have sworn that you informed me that you were "pro Wars" but "anti Saxton".

That's that you got with silly big far ships that move slowly, have weak sauce guns and crappy accuracy.

You mean the crappy accuracy from their heavy, bulky turrets that can "hit N1's" (source: you) from 100+ kilometers away?

In theory, range is good that two Galaxy-class ships, fully armed (like +230 or 250 torps), staying out of range of SW ships, could have singlehandedly owned both CIS and GAR ships at the battle of Coruscant.

That's the beauty of the advantage of range and firepower.

You mean like how they completely fail to use long range combat in all but one vs one battles?

Feel free to show me where the Federation fleet sat outside the star system and destroyed the borg cube with nano-trans-warp-quantum-cloaked-torpedos. Instead of, you know, flying within 10 kilometers of it and pointlessly going around it in circles.

Or when they sat back from 100,000 kilometers away and broke the Dominion lines before advancing, instead of aligning in an unimaginably retarded beyond repair vertical battle lines IN SPACE to charge through the enemy line.

To fit with ratios, there'd be trillions or quadrillions of clones.
Whatever.

You say this as though trillions of soldiers to fight a galactic war is unreasonable.

Besides, I just provided you with evidence that mass conscription did occur. So armies of billions of non-clone fighters is completely plausible.

Ha. Here we go again with your support from higher canon.
Then point me out where you get the impression that the CIS really has access to that many battle droids in the movie, novelization or TCWS.

The fact that a single factory on a single planet was producing several thousand every minute in AotC?

The fact that the entire galaxy was at war, and that in order to fight a galactic war you would need at least hundreds of billions of soldiers?

Tell me, Grand Lord Neuron, how the fuck could the GAR hope win at Geonosis with only 55 Acclamators and their respective clones if the CIS could churn out droids as fast as we saw in the movies so as to already have quadrillions at the beginning of a war that only last two short years, and also, therefore, have all the necessary ships to carry them?

Because the 55 Acclamators won at Geonosis and did not solo the entire CIS?

Because Dooku clearly stopped the Seperatists from sending in more available droids in those giant spherical ships, each one of which could easily hold millions, or even billions (since they can fold up) of battle droids?

Why the fuck those super speeds you speak of didn't allow the CIS to swarm the GAR in return with like 1% of those quadrillion/quintillion droids? Why the fuck the second battle of Geonosis, a very important world, of course, involved so few ships and troops on both sides?

Geonosis was intended to be a secret, so the CIS could not keep too many troops there. The clone army had mere hours to respond to the distress call. Neither side would put all of their eggs into one clumped basket that can be wiped out by a turbolaser bolt.

Is that your best evidence? Bullshit?

One important factor that you continuously ignore (like here, where you quote a segment of text containing two arguments and only respond to one of them) is how the fuck you fight a galactic war with 4 million soldiers. The US army at WW2 was larger than this, and they had to fight for about a billion times less surface area.

It's fact, putrescent shitbag.

So all of your canon sources that imply X number are "fact", but Slave Ship and ICS's are "bullshit" "claims (what you used to define Saxton's works)"?

Oh yeah, what a marvelous rationalization.
Absolutely ALL sources of ALL canon speak of one Grand Army of the Republic, but for the sake of Saxton's bruised ego and thirst for penis enlargement material, we'd have to take his (certainly non continuity-breaking) theory at face value?

You're a sad clown, really.

Because obviously a public name for the military has to be completely accurate. That there cannot be one true "Grand Army" made up of smaller "Grand Armies". You know, like how the Imperial Starfleet is made up of numerous sector fleets and other fleets as well?

Far more reasonable than an army almost smaller than the US army at the beaches of Normandy fighting a surface area billions of times larger than Normandy.

Mmm lemme see.... presently available economical and industrial might maybe?

So in 25,000 years and the ability to access any mineable planet (ALL of whom have been charted by AotC) within hours results in not the equivalent of the mass of a single planet being mined in a galaxy of hundreds of billions?

Don't you realize that your impossibly retarded argument can be applied to ANY SF universe? Hey, why the fuck the Federation doesn't mine its entire sector down to the last particle?

1. Warp drive is slllloooowwwww.
2. They are pacifistic, and have no need for giant fleets.
3. They haven't had 25,000 years to do it.
4. They have only charted out 11% of the galaxy.
5. They don't have a droid labor force.
6. They don't have access to as many planets.

The ICS2 is pure Saxton bullshit. Of course, he wrote it all!
Course of action: absolute denial.
(and yes, you can whine all you want, it doesn't matter)

Ah yes, go on to say this while stating that I "ignore evidence". ROFLAMO.

[Picard]

Saxton wrote ICS 2 by cherrypicking and misinterpreting EU evidence, while not haveing any knowledge of movies at all. So much about validity of book that is supposed to "explain" movies.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Saxton wrote ICS 2 by cherrypicking and misinterpreting EU evidence, while not haveing any knowledge of movies at all. So much about validity of book that is supposed to "explain" movies.

Even if this were true, 99.99% of EU sources are based on authors making shit up. Saxton at least took the effort to scientifically derive his calculations. Even if they were bullshit, they would still be just as canon as the random, bullshit statistics made out of the blue by other EU writers. I don't understand why you apply a higher analytical standard to Saxton's work.

[Picard]

First, there is all that "He has scientific degree" thing going on by some people on SDN/SBC, which doesn't work if person in question is damn liar.

Second, it means that, before bringing up any ICS-level numbers, you have to show these are actually consistent with movies (which is prerequisite anyway)

Third, yes, 99.99% of EU authors make the shit up without much regards for Star Wars canon.

Fourth, yes, they would be just as canon as rest of EU - that is, non-canon.

[Admiral Breetai]

so was my post ever answered? by SWSt I don't feel like sifting through all his lies and degenerate mongrel wank to get to it.

oh and while I'm at it in the interest of making a good post.

STL speed the Alliance has absolutely no manner of countering this, the speed of Federation ships and the range they operate at is mind boggling. We have never seen any ships in Sw operate at tens of thousands of miles for weapon ranges besides the DS.

Economy; simply put SW's sucks it really is terrible when you need to import water to the core regions and would starve to death due to sheer overpopulation. Feddies can simply bribe their way to control of the outer rim territories as it is.

game set and match man

[Picard]

And not to mention that durasteel melts in lava. There goes SW uber-resistence to DET.

[Admiral Breetai]

And not to mention that durasteel melts in lava. There goes SW uber-resistence to DET.

wait a minute what? are you serious? This happened in the films? oh..lord wow

[sonofccn]

so was my post ever answered? by SWSt I don't feel like sifting through all his lies and degenerate mongrel wank to get to it.

He attempted to do so here standard schtick. Took a C-canon source for the Empire's population and assumed a percentage of them must buy/own starships along with extremely dubious assumptions of the service life of said ships.