I challenge darkstar to a debate

[Mike DiCenso]

hey SWST how about you follow this mans advice and shut the fuck up

Sigh. Breetai. You're getting a warning for an inappropriate response to SWST.
-Mike

[StarWarsStarTrek]

No, that's claim, not proof. Now, if you have your website/blog where you have explained it, I'll be only too happy to read it. Just post the link. If you don't, however, you're required to give a proof of these claims and an explanation of how that fits canon, where we see DSI being constructed over a timespan of three to four decades (based on its state at end of RotS, two decades before ANH, where we see it only about halfway finished), and DSII over unknown amount of time, and why would Imperial bureocracy accept them unless it saves costs somehow – like, for example, reducing manpower requirements for Imperial Starfleet, reducing number of rebellions and thus further reducing manpower required by military, and so on.

So what? You feel as though my explaination would magically become more valid once I post the same content on a blog or website? I do not have absolute proof, but I believe that my reasoning is sound and is based on canon sources. Therefore, there is no basis to dismiss it on a whim.

Entire thread basically consists of you ignoring evidence and repeating old claims. Some of offenders:

The Republic mobilized thousands of Acclamators (ICS3) on the fly to defend Coruscant in far less than a six day span.

Why we don't see them in movies? Beacouse unarmed or lightly armed transports would have been useless.

To quote your response:

]No, that's claim, not proof.

Combined with one of your common ignorances that you continuously refuse to correct:

Why we don't see them in movies?

Who cares? How many times must you repeat the same fallacy over and over again before it gets to you that the G canon film-novels stand on their own?

You ignore repeatedly pointed out fact, that Starfleet was not expecting attack to occur yet, while Republic was on war footing for around three years. Moving on.

The hell? Since when was the Republic on "war footing" whereas the Federation was not? The Federation was in the middle of a Cold War [in which, by definition you are always preparing for war] and was responding to an attack into a very contested and important territory. The Republic had not mobilized a military force for 1000 years, was heavily split over whether or not to go to war at all and had to respond within hours to a random planet in the Outer Rim.

Which has all already been pointed out before. Several times, even.

Wrong. Only individual examples have been shown. Moving on.

Can you explain, please, how million systems possibly can have fifty inhabited planets each.

Simple; a single, sparse outpost in a star system isn't counted as a "system" of the Empire.

And that despite it being known that they can muster fleets of thousands if given time. It also ignores that thrity ships is quite large danger to any less-protected world in Star Trek, as evidenced by several TOS episodes as well as "The Die is Cast" and "The Chase". So you're ignoring canon.
And, for Star Wars, it doesn't seem to be thousands of ships. All ships shown were transports, and, if we compare them to Galaxy class, each should be able to carry 10 000 – 20 000 troops. If we take machinery into equation, it could maybe drop to 1 000 – 5 000 troops. 200 000 troops were deployed, and were "a huge army", althought that could be beacouse it has just been revealed, and Geonosians believed they should have known of it. That is between forty and two hundred ships built in secret, over unspecified time; in Star Trek, two intelligence organizations of one major and one minor power were able to build twenty ships in secret.

Of course they can muster large fleets if given time, Picard, any civilization can. I wouldn't say thousands, since the most we see on screen in the largest Trek battles is hundreds. But how does being able to muster fleets of thousands with time (read: months) match mustering thousands within hours?

For ship-vs.ship, yes, beacouse we never see them engage at longer range.

But the G canon film-novel mentions that they can. Do you understand that the film-novels stand on their own better than TCW?

Yet many official sources list far higher range figures. Since these are not contradicted by G canon evidence, they are canon. So there is indeed evidence to the contrary of your denial, and none of it is contradicted. The only way that it would be is if a hard upper limit was established in the movies like this:

That completely ignores lack of longer ranges in capital-ship combat, even when it would have been advantageous to do so. Also, as it was already pointed out, one to two hundred kilometer ranges were considered "long", and Ackbar was vary of closing to point-blank range to ISD's due to their heavier artillery and armor. Only thing it can mean is that ships will get hit more often at closer range, or that medium turbolasers would be brought into play. Either way, it shows that they were fighting near maximum range.

??? Your logic is not resonating at all. Sorry, but I don't understand how Ackbar's wariness to go within ranges regularly used in Trek somehow undermines my position.

And all of this has been pointed out.

Yes, and it all rests on your continuing inability to understand the way in which canon policy works. Even your version has the film-novels above TCW.

But it does. Turbolasers that only "evenly crater surface" would not have power to remove atmosphere from a planet; mop-up operations would not have to be performed if surface is melted – which yields required to remove atmosphere would have achieved; ans troops could not have landed. Only possibility is some funky technobabble.

Except that they did, it's stated in the same damn sentence.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Sorry, double post.

[Picard]

So what? You feel as though my explaination would magically become more valid once I post the same content on a blog or website? I do not have absolute proof, but I believe that my reasoning is sound and is based on canon sources. Therefore, there is no basis to dismiss it on a whim.

No.

You're completely missing the point. You provided no proof, so I asked you to either provide a link or a quote, along with from where it is, or name a source, that can be checked proving it.

My website is sourced. You might have not noticed, but I usually provide names of episodes / movies / canon novels / whatever I get material from, be it quotes, screenshots, scripts or else. You, as a rule, do no such thing. And you ignore actual canon while using EU.

Who cares? How many times must you repeat the same fallacy over and over again before it gets to you that the G canon film-novels stand on their own?

But they don't. They have to follow the movies; if they don't, they're invalid.

The hell? Since when was the Republic on "war footing" whereas the Federation was not? The Federation was in the middle of a Cold War [in which, by definition you are always preparing for war] and was responding to an attack into a very contested and important territory. The Republic had not mobilized a military force for 1000 years, was heavily split over whether or not to go to war at all and had to respond within hours to a random planet in the Outer Rim.

You were using material from 24-th century to "prove" Federation ship numbers, and now you are using cold war, which was not happening at that time, but rather century earlier, to "prove" your "proof". In time we are talking about, there were no major threats to Federation in almost a century. Romulans have only recently re-emerged, and with Klingons being allied to Federation, they, unlike old Klingon-Romulan alliance, had no hope of defeating Federation militarily.

On the other hand, Republic was in an all-out war for three years at time of RotS, and probably had fleets stationed at any more important worlds, like Federation did during Dominion War.

Wrong. Only individual examples have been shown. Moving on.

Let me repeat your own quote:

Five seperate examples of photon torpedos being used?
Of body armor?
Of cover?

So, "individual" =/= "separate" now?

Simple; a single, sparse outpost in a star system isn't counted as a "system" of the Empire.

You provided EU quote which states that Empire has 50 million worlds. Yet it has only one million systems. Something doesn't add up.

But how does being able to muster fleets of thousands with time (read: months) match mustering thousands within hours?

Proof it is thousands; going by movie, it may even be low hundreds.
Proof it has been mustered within hours. Basics of naval strategy and tactics dictate concentration of forces. As such, fleet seen is RotS was almost certainly already formed, and at most would have been spread throught the system.

Sun Tzu: "One who tries to defend everything, defends nothing." Doubly so for naval warfare.

But the G canon film-novel mentions that they can. Do you understand that the film-novels stand on their own better than TCW?

Movies override both movie novels AND TCW. Since we don't ever, ever see them engage at anything more than hundred klometers, and in RotJ they don't even open fire at that range. Largest range we see is fixed emplacement against lumbering ISD, and it is ~6 000 kilometers.

Besides, do you have quotes?

??? Your logic is not resonating at all. Sorry, but I don't understand how Ackbar's wariness to go within ranges regularly used in Trek somehow undermines my position.

You really enjoy completely missing the points, don't you?

That completely ignores lack of longer ranges in capital-ship combat, even when it would have been advantageous to do so. Also, as it was already pointed out, one to two hundred kilometer ranges were considered "long", and Ackbar was vary of closing to point-blank range to ISD's due to their heavier artillery and armor. Only thing it can mean is that ships will get hit more often at closer range, or that medium turbolasers would be brought into play. Either way, it shows that they were fighting near maximum range.

So, either ISD's were missing lot of shots, or they would have brought medium turbolasers into play. And, somehow, I doubt that these have hundreds of thousands of times less range than heavy turbolasers (not to mention that at beginning of battle, when we first see Imperial ships, which are just little more than 100 kilometers away, neither side actually shoots).

And all of this has been pointed out.

And below movies. Which you completely ignore.

Except that they did, it's stated in the same damn sentence.

Which means that sentence is self-contradictory.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Since we don't ever, ever see them engage at anything more than hundred klometers

So since we don't ever, ever see Ahsoka Tano in the movies, she does not exist.

After all, that's what your modified and made up version of canon policy goes by.

[Mr. Oragahn]

As I pointed out in that thread or another one very recently, to you SWST, in ROTJ, Lando and Ackbar agreed that getting closer to the ISDs would be a threat. Yet the rebel fleet was like several dozens kilometers away from the Imperial fleet at that time, tops.
Obviously, is that small distance already makes a huge difference in terms of survival, I don't expect the a range of hundred of kms to be particularly effective in space against moving warships.
100s km will be the maximum range in all logic, and not really very accurate.
Thousands of km? Perhaps in a non jammed place, against a very large target that is not capable of motion of its own, and after a long preparation time. That's the best I'm going to give you, and I see no evidence to allow anything better. It's already a big stretch to me.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

As I pointed out in that thread or another one very recently, to you SWST, in ROTJ, Lando and Ackbar agreed that getting closer to the ISDs would be a threat. Yet the rebel fleet was like several dozens kilometers away from the Imperial fleet at that time, tops.
Obviously, is that small distance already makes a huge difference in terms of survival, I don't expect the a range of hundred of kms to be particularly effective in space against moving warships.
100s km will be the maximum range in all logic, and not really very accurate.
Thousands of km? Perhaps in a non jammed place, against a very large target that is not capable of motion of its own, and after a long preparation time. That's the best I'm going to give you, and I see no evidence to allow anything better. It's already a big stretch to me.

"Small" distance?

Several dozen...48 kilometers?
200 kilometers = hundreds of kilometers?

Moving to within a few hundred meters range is >48 times closer than a 48 kilometers, which is in turn only a few times closer than 200 or so kilometers. Believe it or not, there is a huge danger difference between 50 meters to a machine gun nest (mounted ones of which can have ranges of hundreds of meters of more) and 5 meters.

And I'm confused as to how any of this extremely loose speculation regarding Lando's at the moment strategic decisions debunks the bluntly stated, G canon fact that warships were firing at hundreds of kilometers of distance.

I see no evidence to allow anything better.

You see no evidence? YOU SEE NO EVIDENCE?

The G canon novelization of Revenge of the Sith, higher up on the hierarchy than even TCW

The vast semisphere of the view wall bloomed with battle. Sophisticated sensor algorithims compressed the combat sprawled throughout the galactic capital's orbit to a view the naked eye could enjoy: cruisers hundreds of kilometres apart, exchanging fire at near lightspeed, appeared to be practically hull-to-hull, joined by pulsing cables of flame. Turbolaser blats became swift shafts of light that shattered into prismatic splinters against shields, or bloomed into miniature supernovae that swallowed ships whole ...

Is this sufficient evidence for you, Mr. O, coming from a G canon source?

If you feel that you can dismiss evidence to the point of not seeing them from a blunt G canon statement on the grounds of [false] logic, why can I not dismiss claims of a 3 million man army fighting a galactic war on the same grounds?

[Mr. Oragahn]

As I pointed out in that thread or another one very recently, to you SWST, in ROTJ, Lando and Ackbar agreed that getting closer to the ISDs would be a threat. Yet the rebel fleet was like several dozens kilometers away from the Imperial fleet at that time, tops.
Obviously, is that small distance already makes a huge difference in terms of survival, I don't expect the a range of hundred of kms to be particularly effective in space against moving warships.
100s km will be the maximum range in all logic, and not really very accurate.
Thousands of km? Perhaps in a non jammed place, against a very large target that is not capable of motion of its own, and after a long preparation time. That's the best I'm going to give you, and I see no evidence to allow anything better. It's already a big stretch to me.

"Small" distance?

Several dozen...48 kilometers?
200 kilometers = hundreds of kilometers?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iOeFPE8574

See before the superlaser gets fired, when Lando muses about the Imperial's fleet plan, and just after Lando says they have to engage the SDs; at that time he's already flying the Falcon close to one, which would be useless since they were defending the cruisers from the TIEs, unless the cruisers actually were also closer to the SDs (and they were flying towards them anyway).

It doesn't leave much room.

Moving to within a few hundred meters range is >48 times closer than a 48 kilometers, which is in turn only a few times closer than 200 or so kilometers. Believe it or not, there is a huge danger difference between 50 meters to a machine gun nest (mounted ones of which can have ranges of hundreds of meters of more) and 5 meters.

It is my point. When talking about range, you consider two things. Maximum range, and effective range, the one at which the amount of hits vs misses is satisfying enough.

It is clear that if the ISDs had an effective range worth of thousands of km, it would make zero difference for the rebel cruiser to be sitting where we saw them sitting before the superlaser got fired, and passing by the Imperial ships and point blank range, because hit rates wouldn't be affected much.

And I'm confused as to how any of this extremely loose speculation regarding Lando's at the moment strategic decisions debunks the bluntly stated, G canon fact that warships were firing at hundreds of kilometers of distance.

There's nothing lose about Lando's idea. Ackbar knows it.
And no one said that hundreds of km of range was particularly efficient. It just is the maximum known range in higher canon. That is all. Considering the facts from the ROTJ battle, I wouldn't pass those hundreds of km of range as particularly very effective.

I see no evidence to allow anything better.

You see no evidence? YOU SEE NO EVIDENCE?

Drop the caps.
I trust I made myself clear enough.

The G canon novelization of Revenge of the Sith, higher up on the hierarchy than even TCW

The vast semisphere of the view wall bloomed with battle. Sophisticated sensor algorithims compressed the combat sprawled throughout the galactic capital's orbit to a view the naked eye could enjoy: cruisers hundreds of kilometres apart, exchanging fire at near lightspeed, appeared to be practically hull-to-hull, joined by pulsing cables of flame. Turbolaser blats became swift shafts of light that shattered into prismatic splinters against shields, or bloomed into miniature supernovae that swallowed ships whole ...

Is this sufficient evidence for you, Mr. O, coming from a G canon source?

It just says they exchanged fire. There's no indication of the hit rate, i.e., the effective range.

If you feel that you can dismiss evidence to the point of not seeing them from a blunt G canon statement on the grounds of [false] logic, why can I not dismiss claims of a 3 million man army fighting a galactic war on the same grounds?

I suppose that by now, after having read that last post of mine, you better understand my position. I'm not denying stated maximum range. I'm disputing treating it as some particularly effective range, otherwise getting closer to ISDs would have changed nothing for the Rebels.

If you can't understand my point, there's nothing more I can do.

[mojo]

hey SWST how about you follow this mans advice and shut the fuck up

Sigh. Breetai. You're getting a warning for an inappropriate response to SWST.
-Mike

Sigh. Five years later.

[Admiral Breetai]

[

Sigh. Five years later.

Penn is probably gonna get a warning too

[Picard]

So since we don't ever, ever see Ahsoka Tano in the movies, she does not exist.

After all, that's what your modified and made up version of canon policy goes by.

You got it completely wrong. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but...

That's a character from The Clone Wars. Clone Wars are canon (and I have to correct one more thing: I don't set canon policy. George Lucas does, and if you don't like it, go cry to him, not me), so she does exist. But Admiral Thrawn doesn't exist in Star Wars canon.

It just says they exchanged fire. There's no indication of the hit rate, i.e., the effective range.

I doubt they'd be exchanging fire if they couldn't hit anything.

[Nowhereman10]

So since we don't ever, ever see Ahsoka Tano in the movies, she does not exist.

After all, that's what your modified and made up version of canon policy goes by.

You got it completely wrong. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but...

That's a character from The Clone Wars. Clone Wars are canon (and I have to correct one more thing: I don't set canon policy. George Lucas does, and if you don't like it, go cry to him, not me), so she does exist. But Admiral Thrawn doesn't exist in Star Wars canon.

It just says they exchanged fire. There's no indication of the hit rate, i.e., the effective range.

I doubt they'd be exchanging fire if they couldn't hit anything.

Okay, I don't like saying anything that supports SWST, but don't we see 200 km range demonstrated by CIS Munificents in "Downfall of a Droid"[TCW1]?

[Mr. Oragahn]

It just says they exchanged fire. There's no indication of the hit rate, i.e., the effective range.

I doubt they'd be exchanging fire if they couldn't hit anything.

Hitting once a time is plain enough to start pulling shields down as soon as possible before closing on the target.
Even if hit like 10~20% of time I'd still attempt to land some shots on them.

[Praeothmin]

So since we don't ever, ever see Ahsoka Tano in the movies, she does not exist.

After all, that's what your modified and made up version of canon policy goes by.

You got it completely wrong. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but...

That's a character from The Clone Wars. Clone Wars are canon (and I have to correct one more thing: I don't set canon policy. George Lucas does, and if you don't like it, go cry to him, not me), so she does exist. But Admiral Thrawn doesn't exist in Star Wars canon.

It just says they exchanged fire. There's no indication of the hit rate, i.e., the effective range.

I doubt they'd be exchanging fire if they couldn't hit anything.

Okay, I don't like saying anything that supports SWST, but don't we see 200 km range demonstrated by CIS Munificents in "Downfall of a Droid"[TCW1]?

We do?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iOeFPE8574

See before the superlaser gets fired, when Lando muses about the Imperial's fleet plan, and just after Lando says they have to engage the SDs; at that time he's already flying the Falcon close to one, which would be useless since they were defending the cruisers from the TIEs, unless the cruisers actually were also closer to the SDs (and they were flying towards them anyway).

It doesn't leave much room.

What's your point? I never denied that the Rebel fleet was closing the gap with the imperial fleet. But the Battle of Endor was not a conventional battle to the slightest degree:

1. The Rebels had a target that they had to penetrate, and prepared their strategy on the expectation that they were to immediately launch starfighters to enter the Death Star, while their larger ships would distract. Ships can distract better at shorter distances.

2. The imperial fleet was ordered to ignore the Rebel capital ships.

3. The Rebel Fleet was encircled.

It is my point. When talking about range, you consider two things. Maximum range, and effective range, the one at which the amount of hits vs misses is satisfying enough.

Nowhere do I claim that the maximum range of SW is in the light minutes or thousands of kilometers. It is, however in the hundreds of kilometers, as I will explain later.

It is clear that if the ISDs had an effective range worth of thousands of km, it would make zero difference for the rebel cruiser to be sitting where we saw them sitting before the superlaser got fired, and passing by the Imperial ships and point blank range, because hit rates wouldn't be affected much.

Then feel free to explain every Trek battle to ever exist. Why would vertical "battle lines" and charging through the enemy's line be viable if their actual effective range was hundreds of thousands of kilometers?

There's nothing lose about Lando's idea. Ackbar knows it.
And no one said that hundreds of km of range was particularly efficient. It just is the maximum known range in higher canon. That is all. Considering the facts from the ROTJ battle, I wouldn't pass those hundreds of km of range as particularly very effective.

No, it's the maximum range that is used. Nobody uses a weapon's maximum range in combat, a maximum range that does not exist in space.

It just says they exchanged fire. There's no indication of the hit rate, i.e., the effective range.

Why the fuck would you exchange fire at hundreds of meters if the hit rate was not so that doing so would be remotely intelligent?

Not that it matters:

The vast semisphere of the view wall bloomed with battle. Sophisticated sensor algorithims compressed the combat sprawled throughout the galactic capital's orbit to a view the naked eye could enjoy: cruisers hundreds of kilometres apart, exchanging fire at near lightspeed, appeared to be practically hull-to-hull, joined by pulsing cables of flame. Turbolaser blats became swift shafts of light that shattered into prismatic splinters against shields, or bloomed into miniature supernovae that swallowed ships whole ...

Within that immense curve of computer-filled carnage, the only furnishing was one lone chair, centred in an expanse of empty floor. This was called the General's Chair, just as this apartment atop the flagship's conning spire was called the General's Quarters.

With his back to that chair and to the man shackled within it, hands folded behind him beneath his cloak of silken armor-weave, stood Count Dooku.

Conclusion: the shots were hitting. The two sides were not exchanging fire pointlessly to satisfy pro Wars debaters.

I suppose that by now, after having read that last post of mine, you better understand my position. I'm not denying stated maximum range. I'm disputing treating it as some particularly effective range, otherwise getting closer to ISDs would have changed nothing for the Rebels.

If you can't understand my point, there's nothing more I can do.

Do you understand that "maximum" range is not only non existent in space (turbolaser bolts may disperse, but there is no formula dictating when exactly they count as "dispersed", and nothing applies to the various projectile weapons stated in the novel), but theoretical and never used in mobile warfare?