Challenge: Invade the Star Wars galaxy

[Mike DiCenso]

Note that the latter was within hours of Yoda arriving at Kamino and mobilizing the entire military for the very first time. The Federation mustered 40 ships to defend Earth by comparison, and the Enterprise is frequently the only ship within range to come to the aid of X starbase or X planet. It was estimated that a transport ship would take two weeks to prepare in a life or death situation.

What examples are these from? Yoda is making use of a military force that had been built up over a 10 year span of time by Palpatine as part of his overall grand scheme to destroy the Jedi and subvert and convert the Republic into the Galactic Empire. By comparison, the Borg incursion in BoBW occured quickly, with Starfleet having less than a year to prepare, and even still within a 6 day span of time mobilized 40 ships to intercept a fast-moving and powerful enemy headed straight for Earth. Within four years of this, and the emergence of the Dominion threat and skirmishing with the Klingons, Starfleet soon had thousands of ships as evidenced by the events depicted in ST: First Contact, and DS9's Dominion War story arcs, most in particular WYLB. In the cases of your citing any of the Enterprises being the only ship available, they usually are because they are at the edge of or even outside Federation territory. In some cases, they are sent in as a recon mission as was the case with the Enterprise in TOS' "Errand of Mercy" where the ship was followed in within a day by a large Federation fleet to Organia that faced off a similar fleet of Klingon vessels. Of course no fighting broke out because the god-like Organians stepped in to put an end to hostilities.

In fact, you're attempt at comparison here is very typically anti-chronological as is common for the worst Pro-Wars offenders. You compare a well-prepared military to a sudden out of nowhere attack. You compare the Republic at the height of a major conflict to a time period in Trek when the Federation has no real enemies and it's deployments reflect that until first contacts with the Borg and Dominion change the situation dramatically. Even after the Dominion War was over, Starfleet remained prepared enough that when a Borg transwarp conduit opened up in VOY's "Endgame", it mobilized a fleet of 27 starships one light year out from Earth with only minutes notice.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Cannot be further developed, tested, mass produced and deployed so quickly.

Prove it...

Why not used before?

Againt Federation law, DS9 shows ut the Tech still exists...

and "thousands" to attack Geonosis (AOTC novel)?

Which the movie doesn't show...
The Novel, while written by one of my favorite authors, does take artistic liberties with the material, as his description of the Lightsabre battles are very different from what is seen onscreen...

and the Enterprise is frequently the only ship within range to come to the aid of X starbase or X planet.

That was during TNG, but DS9's SoA, OMOtB and many other shows show us fleets in the hundreds, easily...

I never saw starfleet's alleged 10,000+ ship navy at once. I never saw the US's allegedly giant surface fleet at once, nor the Red Army's tens of millions of soldiers in WW2 footage. Surely the only conclusion is that they do not eixst.

We know of their existence through spoken lines in ST, and footage of some battles have shown hundreds of ships, whereas no movie or TCW episode ever mentions the millions of ships in SW, the only battle where such numbers could have been seen is in RotS above Corsucant, and then only because this is the main Republic planet...

Your examples are all over the place for ST, you mix DS9 (later timeline with War Federation) with TNG (earlier timeline with Peace Federation) as if they were interchangeable, which is illogical...
Pick a period for your wank... I mean, scenario, and stick with it...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

What examples are these from?

I posted them in the long debate I had in this thread, which I presume is over.

Yoda is making use of a military force that had been built up over a 10 year span of time by Palpatine as part of his overall grand scheme to destroy the Jedi and subvert and convert the Republic into the Galactic Empire.

So? The Imperial starfleet had been built up for two decades, so presumably they'd therefore have the same logistical capabilities, if not more, because they are not mobilizing for the very first time, on a whim to a sparse outer rim planet.

By comparison, the Borg incursion in BoBW occured quickly, with Starfleet having less than a year to prepare,

Since when was the GAR preparing to jump to Geonosis that very instant? Did the Kaminoians somehow predict that Obi Wan and Anakin would be captured on Geonosis? Did Yoda? No, they had ten years to build up a fleet and "prepare" it for being used when the time comes; starfleet has had longer.

and even still within a 6 day span of time mobilized 40 ships to intercept a fast-moving and powerful enemy headed straight for Earth.

The Republic mobilized thousands of Acclamators (ICS3) on the fly to defend Coruscant in far less than a six day span.

Within four years of this, and the emergence of the Dominion threat and skirmishing with the Klingons, Starfleet soon had thousands of ships as evidenced by the events depicted in ST: First Contact, and DS9's Dominion War story arcs, most in particular WYLB.

No, the most ships we see on screen are hundreds. After several years they mobilized a decent fleet of thousands of ships that would equate to tiny frigates in SW terms. The Imperial Starfleet in peacetime had over 1.6 million frigates (1000 sectors times the 1600 starships per sector fleet mentionedin the SW:WEG).

In the cases of your citing any of the Enterprises being the only ship available, they usually are because they are at the edge of or even outside Federation territory.

No. In ST:Generations, the Enterprise was taking a tour around the Sol system.

Besides, I must note that the Republic fleet was also in the outer edges of the galaxy, most notably Kamino.

In some cases, they are sent in as a recon mission as was the case with the Enterprise in TOS' "Errand of Mercy" where the ship was followed in within a day by a large Federation fleet to Organia that faced off a similar fleet of Klingon vessels.

Yet since when does it take a day for a SW fleet to mobilize? In various scenes you see fleets rallying to positions within hours or minutes, not days.

In fact, you're attempt at comparison here is very typically anti-chronological as is common for the worst Pro-Wars offenders. You compare a well-prepared military to a sudden out of nowhere attack.

Are you making the implicit claim that the AotC Republic fleet was more prepared than the Federation starfleet as of Worf 359? Why? The Republic fleet had 10 years to prepare, yes. Starfleet had more, and the Republic fleet had no generals yet, no command structure and had never actually been used in real combat. Both had to scramble to an unexpected location on a whim, except that one scrambled thousands to a distant outer rim planet in hours wheras the other barely managed to get 40 ships in defense of the capital.

You compare the Republic at the height of a major conflict

??? This is AotC. The conflict hadn't even begun yet, the Republic had no army and hadn't had one for a thousand years.

to a time period in Trek when the Federation has no real enemies and it's deployments reflect that until first contacts with the Borg and Dominion change the situation dramatically.

Starfleet was still already partially mobilized. The Republic fleet was not.

Even after the Dominion War was over, Starfleet remained prepared enough that when a Borg transwarp conduit opened up in VOY's "Endgame", it mobilized a fleet of 27 starships one light year out from Earth with only minutes notice.
-Mike

[/quote]

Which is impressive how again?

This also does not address the 15 ship response to 20 Romulan warbirds intruding into the Neutral Zone during a civil war where both sides were very much "prepared" for a confrontation by their universe's standards.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Apologies for the double post.

Prove it...

Why should I prove that it can't? It is your job to prove that it can be developed, tested and mass produced, even though it never is, not against the Borg, not against the Dominion, not against any civilization threatening foe.

Againt Federation law, DS9 shows ut the Tech still exists...

I find it interesting that you feel the need to legalize dangerous technology that was not legalized to fight the Dominion or the Borg. You must really consider the Imperials to be a greater threat.

Which the movie doesn't show...
The Novel, while written by one of my favorite authors, does take artistic liberties with the material, as his description of the Lightsabre battles are very different from what is seen onscreen...

Doesn't matter if the movies don't show, so long as it is not contradicted.

That was during TNG, but DS9's SoA, OMOtB and many other shows show us fleets in the hundreds, easily...

Of course, they were mobilized for war. And even then, it takes weeks for reinforcements of a few hundred to arrive at a critical battle or juncture.

We know of their existence through spoken lines in ST, and footage of some battles have shown hundreds of ships, whereas no movie or TCW episode ever mentions the millions of ships in SW, the only battle where such numbers could have been seen is in RotS above Corsucant, and then only because this is the main Republic planet...

Your examples are all over the place for ST, you mix DS9 (later timeline with War Federation) with TNG (earlier timeline with Peace Federation) as if they were interchangeable, which is illogical...
Pick a period for your wank... I mean, scenario, and stick with it...

My point is that your logic of "we don't see ALL of the imperial fleet in one place, so it must not exist, even though it is mentioned constantly by multiple sources" is wonky and works both ways.

[Admiral Breetai]

so about those trillions of ships?

[Praeothmin]

Why should I prove that it can't? It is your job to prove that it can be developed, tested and mass produced, even though it never is, not against the Borg, not against the Dominion, not against any civilization threatening foe.

Why should have they mass-produced it, since they don't need it to reach their borders...
But in your scenario, they need it since you changed the original 100 000km to 100 000 LY...
Oh, and using simply Warp Drive, but an alternate source of energy, the Equinox in VOY did travel 10 000 LY in less than two weeks, and the science vessel is certainly not the fastest ship in Starfleet...
Higher FTL has been achieved, such as Warp 10, when the need demanded it, so if VOY was able to produce a Warp 10 shuttle, then I'm pretty sure the Federation as a whole can produce something similar...

I find it interesting that you feel the need to legalize dangerous technology that was not legalized to fight the Dominion or the Borg. You must really consider the Imperials to be a greater threat.

I feel the need to do nothing, I am merely pointing out the Tech still exists and that you cannot deny its existence...

Doesn't matter if the movies don't show, so long as it is not contradicted.

Cool, then the movies clearly contradict the tens of thousands, since it clearly shows much, much less...
There, contradicted...

Of course, they were mobilized for war. And even then, it takes weeks for reinforcements of a few hundred to arrive at a critical battle or juncture.

At least, unless SW, ST has reinforcements of a few hundreds...

My point is that your logic of "we don't see ALL of the imperial fleet in one place, so it must not exist, even though it is mentioned constantly by multiple sources" is wonky and works both ways

And you rlogic of "even though the movies never even inferred such occurences and instead infer much smaller forces, unless specifically stated they do not, I say SW has bazillions of ships because I want to"...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Why should have they mass-produced it, since they don't need it to reach their borders...

So because you don't need to have a vastly superior and faster travel mechanism to reach your own borders, you shouldn't bother developing it? That the Federation, who had to fight the final battle of the Dominion War with but a fraction of their forces because the rest would have taken weeks to arrive, wouldn't have benefited from mass produced and tested transwarp?

I suppose that cars are useless since you don't need it to get anywhere, you could just walk!

But in your scenario, they need it since you changed the original 100 000km to 100 000 LY...
Oh, and using simply Warp Drive, but an alternate source of energy, the Equinox in VOY did travel 10 000 LY in less than two weeks, and the science vessel is certainly not the fastest ship in Starfleet...
Higher FTL has been achieved, such as Warp 10, when the need demanded it, so if VOY was able to produce a Warp 10 shuttle, then I'm pretty sure the Federation as a whole can produce something similar...

All of your examples were one off occurrences that had never been tested nor mass produced. Warp 10 in particular was very wonky and had some undesirable side effects.

I feel the need to do nothing, I am merely pointing out the Tech still exists and that you cannot deny its existence...

Show me where I deny their existence. You see, Praeothmin, I have made it quite clear multiple times throughout that I do not deny the existence of transwarp, or cloaks, or any other Treknologies. It would be helpful if you were to pay better attention to the specifics of the various arguments that I have made. In this case, it's not that transwarp doesn't exist it's just that it's never been mass produced.

Cool, then the movies clearly contradict the tens of thousands, since it clearly shows much, much less...
There, contradicted...

No, that's not a contradiction. I don't see how you could possibly draw this from the movies, since we never get to see the space battle above Geonosis, and never see the Acclamators aside from a few brief moments. Nor does seeing a few Acclamators on a few kilometers worth of the planet's surface area dictate that the entire planet could not have had thousands, as the novels clearly demonstrate.

At least, unless SW, ST has reinforcements of a few hundreds...

What is this supposed to mean? Thousands of capital ships fought at the Battle of Coruscant, which was a surprise attack with no warning. Tens of thousands of Yuuzhan Vong warships were defending occupied Coruscant. Forty ships battled a borg cube that intended to assimilate the human race, and fifteen were sent to deal with a Romulan incursion so serious it was considered to be a high alert level threat.

And you rlogic of "even though the movies never even inferred such occurences and instead infer much smaller forces,

You mean like the many, many dozens of ships we see in the opening of RotS, even though the battle of Coruscant was already dying down and we only saw less than 5% of Coruscant's surface area?

unless specifically stated they do not, I say SW has bazillions of ships because I want to"...

So CANON citations from the second most canonical set of evidence in the continuum is "because I say so?"

Why are you denying that evidence presented to you exists, Praeothmin? Is this not what I myself have been blamed for doing? I present to you G canon citations, and you respond by saying that my argument rests on "because I say so"?

[Admiral Breetai]

hey Mike preao notice how I just asked him for the seventh time to back up that trillions of vessels nonsense..and the troll just ignores me?

remember how dishonestly making a claim that's an outright lie then evading it..is against the rules? you gonna do something?

[Praeothmin]

So because you don't need to have a vastly superior and faster travel mechanism to reach your own borders, you shouldn't bother developing it? That the Federation, who had to fight the final battle of the Dominion War with but a fraction of their forces because the rest would have taken weeks to arrive, wouldn't have benefited from mass produced and tested transwarp?

When, in the Dominion War, were reinforcements not coming because they were too far away?
I was always under the impression they weren't coming because they were spread thin, and were committed elsewhere...
Do you have quotes, episode exerpts that show us that the absence of reinforcements are indeed because of distance and speed?

All of your examples were one off occurrences that had never been tested nor mass produced. Warp 10 in particular was very wonky and had some undesirable side effects.

I know, but they have been achieved...
What I'm saying, SWST, is that in your scenario, these venues would be useful to devellop, if I were to decide to conquer another Galaxy for the fun of it...

In this case, it's not that transwarp doesn't exist it's just that it's never been mass produced.

Great, then we don't disgree here...
My contention is simply, again, in your scenario, you mention that we need to imagine ourselves trying to invade and conquer another Galaxy for whatwever reason, one which is at 100 000 LY away...
In that case, I would research and try to devellop any FTL means possible...

No, that's not a contradiction. I don't see how you could possibly draw this from the movies, since we never get to see the space battle above Geonosis, and never see the Acclamators aside from a few brief moments. Nor does seeing a few Acclamators on a few kilometers worth of the planet's surface area dictate that the entire planet could not have had thousands, as the novels clearly demonstrate.

Ok, try this:
In the lightsabre battle's description, the author mentions how Dooku never moves, and only his saber moves when facing Obi-Wan and Anakin, yet the movie clearly shows this not to be true...
We see the battle field, and it isn't that big, in fact it's not very different from the later Geonosis attack in TCW.
In the three canon example, two show small forces, and only one, which contains other information clearly contradicted in the movie, mentions a big number of forces...
I go with the two non contradicted sources...

Thousands of capital ships fought at the Battle of Coruscant, which was a surprise attack with no warning.

Source?

Tens of thousands of Yuuzhan Vong warships were defending occupied Coruscant.

EU, contradicted by other EU sources, like the Thrawn trilogy where 200 ships would have tipped the balance...

Forty ships battled a borg cube that intended to assimilate the human race, and fifteen were sent to deal with a Romulan incursion so serious it was considered to be a high alert level threat.

Again, TNG which is largely contradicted by fleet battles in DS9 and the fleet surrounding Cardassia Prime...

Why are you denying that evidence presented to you exists, Praeothmin? Is this not what I myself have been blamed for doing? I present to you G canon citations, and you respond by saying that my argument rests on "because I say so"?

You are corect, you have presented evidence, even if we disagree in whether it is contradicted by the movies or not...

What do also do, though, is cherry pick examples in ST and ignore others which you don't like...
Whenever you argue for a small number of ST ships, you always resort to TNG, and ignore the later, and more current, DS9 showings...
DS9 shows us fleets of hundreds of ships in many episodes, while the only showing we have in SW is RotS's battle over the main Capital of the Republic...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Sorry, I'm afraid that you misunderstood. I do not deny that Trek has transwarp. But, believe it or not, testing, producing and equipping a complex, new technology uniform through Starfleet in six months is not nearly as simple as "uh, I'll just try to research into it."

In addition, we see the ground battle on Geonosis, we never see the space battle in the films, and therefore there is no contradiction. Nor does TCW have authority over the film-novels.

The ROTS:ICS, which you cannot, contrary to popular opinion, dismiss on a whim without pretext, states that there are thousands of ships at the battle of Coruscant. This is actually not-unsupported in the movies, in which we see many dozens, potentially hundreds of ships in just a small percentage of Coruscant's surface area, at a time when the battle was already winding down.

Meanwhile, it fifteen ships respond to a high level security threat incursion. You claim that this is "contradicted" by DS9 (and proceed to assume that the latter overrides it, for no reason at all), but it isn't. The relatively large battles you see in DS9 is after the Federation has been at war for years, and usually takes weeks to assemble and has reinforcements from allies. The Neutral Zone incursion is an example of how pathetically Starfleet responds to quick and sudden movements, compared to how thousands of capital ships rushed to defend Coruscant on a whim.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

@SWST
After looking over your latest post I do not see cause warrented for our discussion to continue. I do not believe anything productive will be accomplished. I thank you for your time and bid you good day.

Nice debate then. But:

Bombing civilian populations can be a desperately slow way of breaking their will, actually. In my very long expe-rience, most don't give in until they're standing in rubble and there's not even a stick left to fight with. In the shorter term, they just dig in. It's their home. They've nowhere to retreat."

Clearly supports my idea that the SW populace is not a pacifistic society that will lay over and die to your few million army. Since I have provided evidence that conscription does occur in SW, a several hundred billion man army makes any occupation impossible.

"I've often fought the urge to reduce a planet to molten slag myself, "Niathal said, unmoved.

"Looks like the Kem Stor Ai dispute will be the next to boil over." Niathal had a brief moment of wishing that she could target one world, reduce its surface to slag from orbit just to make her point, and then ask who else wanted some of the same. But it passed. It always did.

"We can reduce a planet to molten slag from orbit. Let’s not rule out the possibility of
needing to do that to Centerpoint-even if it would be best preserved to defend the
Alliance."

All from Karen Traviss.

[Admiral Breetai]

so yeah still waiting on you to man up and refute my accusations that your trillions of sihps figure is an outright lie.

I smell fear..SWST either that or bullshit it;s winter and I have allergies

[Picard]

Clearly supports my idea that the SW populace is not a pacifistic society that will lay over and die to your few million army. Since I have provided evidence that conscription does occur in SW, a several hundred billion man army makes any occupation impossible.

As I said: stalemate.

[Praeothmin]

Sorry, I'm afraid that you misunderstood. I do not deny that Trek has transwarp. But, believe it or not, testing, producing and equipping a complex, new technology uniform through Starfleet in six months is not nearly as simple as "uh, I'll just try to research into it."

You mean, like what 1 ship's personel did for the Warp 10 shuttle in VOY?
Riiight...
Problem is, if one ship can do it, the entire scientific division, or at least the propulsion division, could most likely do it as well...

In addition, we see the ground battle on Geonosis, we never see the space battle in the films, and therefore there is no contradiction. Nor does TCW have authority over the film-novels.

Oh, right, and because there are so little troops on the ground, it is logical to assume that there are thousands upon thousands more troops waiting in the thousands of ships in orbit...

The ROTS:ICS, which you cannot, contrary to popular opinion, dismiss on a whim without pretext, states that there are thousands of ships at the battle of Coruscant. This is actually not-unsupported in the movies, in which we see many dozens, potentially hundreds of ships in just a small percentage of Coruscant's surface area, at a time when the battle was already winding down.

I can, however, dismiss it on the grounds that it is not supported by the movies...
And again, as it seems you have missed (or ignored) my arguments, RotS is the only onscreen example of large SW fleets...
1...
1 example, when compared to the many for ST seen in DS9, even though you like to dismiss them...

Meanwhile, it fifteen ships respond to a high level security threat incursion. You claim that this is "contradicted" by DS9 (and proceed to assume that the latter overrides it, for no reason at all), but it isn't.

Prove it...
DS9 happens AFTER TNG, and so it show us the Federation as it looks like in war time, or in response to war...
DS9 is the more recent series, and so events which happen in it supercede events that happen before it...

The relatively large battles you see in DS9 is after the Federation has been at war for years, and usually takes weeks to assemble and has reinforcements from allies.

Proof?
Evidence?

The Neutral Zone incursion is an example of how pathetically Starfleet responds to quick and sudden movements, compared to how thousands of capital ships rushed to defend Coruscant on a whim.

Are we again back at TNG, events which unfolded in the Federation's past?

In that case, I say the SW Galaxy can only be debated using the events which happen in TCW, because I choose to freeze the timeframe there...

[sonofccn]

@Praeothmin

With thanks to Mr. O this should be the quote he's pulling thousands of acclamators for Geneosis

"Jedi, move!" Mace cried, and the survivors rushed to the nearest gunships, scrambling aboard. Mace climbed in right beside Yoda, and their ship lifted away immediately, cannons blaring, shattering and scattering battle droids as it soared up out of the arena.
Mace could hardly believe the incredible sight unfolding before him, as thousands of Republic ships rushed down on the assembled fleet of the Trade Federation, dropping tens of thousands of clone troopers to the surface of the planet. Behind him, Yoda continued to orchestrate the battle.
"More battalions to the left," he instructed his signaler, who relayed it out to the field commanders. "Encircle them, we must, then divide."

So there is a strong implication part of those thousands, depositing tens of thousands of clone troopers, are gunships. In addition this is part of the battle scene we see as everyone is rescued from the arena.