Challenge: Invade the Star Wars galaxy

[Admiral Breetai]

Of course, because wanting to conquer a neighbouring Galaxy 100 000 LY away, I will certainly not try to devellop TransWarp, or Wormhole technology based on captured Borg equipment...


*Rolleyes*

slipstream is canonically likely going to be the standard method of ftl travel for the federation post voyager, especially considering the borg are likely a dying race stealing their tech to augment their own is entirely valid

as to Federation weaponry not being able to pop Alliance shields that's simply fiction TCW fire power pales in comparison with Federation yields and when you consider what a single klingon science ship can convert an entire planets surface into a brown wasteland in roughly fifteen seconds via messing with their own plasma fuel tank or what ever was done it's a telling thing.

I could have a fleet of trillions of random civilian ships constructed and controlled by computers, and have them randomly all fly out at once and watch as you waste your precious photon torpedos on them.

SWSt your lying no such numbers exist in any canon

Your situation is hopeless. A Federation hell-bent on conquest is the Empire's worst nightmare. Can we occupy every world with troops? No. But the beauty is, we don't need to. Decapitate, and it's yours.

you don't really need to occupy any world just destroy all the infrastructure and critical sectors of production like food and let the galaxy fall apart leave it to starve to death and end up in a dark age.

hell using gravity manipulation you can block off hyperspace in canon right? Just choke off the major parts of the core worlds allot of those mega cities like Curoscant cannot feed themselves or provide water. do this and in six months the alliance would have to surrender or face trillions of deaths for hunger related issues

[StarWarsStarTrek]

And my assertion was there was no need. The Federation has a fleet, no need to build one just for this little ruckus.

The Federation was devastated by the loss of 48 ships when the borg arrived and kicked their asses. Many times the Enterprise is the only ship "within range" of a distress signal call, despite being in the Sol system. At its largest the Federation fleet totaled perhaps 10,000; joined with the rest of the Alpha Quadrant they presumably matched the Dominion fleet. This is not sufficient. 10,000 ships means at most a million poorly trained ground troops, insufficient to occupy Coruscant or even Naboo.

Because its a "lower" high warp speed. For instance I could have used That which Survives {TOS-3}

RAHDA: It doesn't make any sense. But somehow I'd say that in a flash we've been knocked one thousand light years away from where we were.
SPOCK: Nine hundred and ninety point seven light years to be exact, Lieutenant.

Which the Enterprise covered without aid of advance alien technomagic in about a day or so or assuming the 100,000 lightyear seperation could be covered in less than a year at that speed with a couple of months max to reach the galaxy center once they did.

That is never demonstrated over extended distances. In every case in which a ship has to travel more than the <1000 light years in which your example references, you have much lower speeds. Such as the Voyager. Or Paramount's published warp charts. Or the Dominion war.

Can't be done. Knowledge is too widespread and control too loose for you to even achieve this. Pick a Cantina on the Outer Rim and I can find dubious men and women with a grudge against society and knowing the location of the single most important planet in their galaxy.

You are going to have a hard enough time locating Coruscant; now you wish to locate some outer rim planet that happens to be inhabited? And you can't intercept messages or ships as they use a completely different (and superior) mechanism compared to yours, so you have to physically bribe or force some random smuggler into giving you the data.

It most certainly is true and you were the one who started making cracks the Federation hadn't mapped the galaxy in two centuries. I was merely putting things in perspective.

The irony of the last phrase is probably lost on you. It was I that was trying to put a common topic of the debate (charting technology) into practical application for this thread by pointing out that the Federation would not be able to map out the SW galaxy easily since it hasn't done it with the Milky Way after centuries. Instead of explaining how the Federation manages to locate Coruscant and map out the SW galaxy, a necessary step to an invasion, your response is to drop all perspective on the comment and try to one up my claim by pointing out falsely that the Republic hadn't mapped out its galaxy in 25,000 years. This is false, and completely irrelevant as the Republic is not the invader here.

And you will need to produce the relavent passages to prove this.

Unfortunately, I do not have the quote with me. I do have this:

“...and the Emperor, pleased with the concept, ordered construction to begin. An unoccupied and isolated sector of space was chosen as the construction site. For nearly two years, every resource of the Empire was directed toward the completion of the project.” — Star Wars Technical Journal, p.100.

Which does contradict my source, saying that the Death Star 2 took "nearly 2 years" to complete. If this is the case, then that means that my fleet will contain 20 Death Stars instead of 40. Boo hoo.

Actually at the start of the Empire's construction of the DS1 holocomunication was quite prevelent,

It is still prevalent in the OT era, particularly in the EU and in the movies as well. The fact that it does not look as CGI-ish does not mean that it is less advanced.

look at the just finished Clonewars and their palm holos and what not,

Present in OT era EU, and completely irrelevant to the topic.

the Venator was the top of the line ship,

And completely inferior to ISD's.

Imperialization hasn't occured yet nor had TIE fighters been put into service. All of these events and happenings would be concurent to the first Death Star which took about 20 years to build.

Incorrect. Although tie fighters are far cheaper than, say, headhunters, they were also produced in far more numerous quantities. ISD's are significantly larger and more expensive than Venators.

If you want proof, in the Star Wars: Death Star novel many of the protagonists do not know about the Death Star project. Those that do have only heard rumors, and severely underestimate its size or power. It was also stated to have cost "trillions" of credits, but if every citizen in the galaxy only paid one credit in tax dollars the Empire would have 100 quadrillion.

That was never debated. You argued that because it was secret it must have been a tiny portion of the Imperial budget. I was arguing against.

It wasn't tiny, but that hardly matters because the Alliance's full scale military mobilization budget would hardly be tiny either. The only thing I have to prove is that the budget used to make the Death Star was not unsustainable over decades.

Which would put it on par with your average shield system, hardly out of the ordinary.

That wasn't my point. My point is that I can activate a planetary shield and overlapping theater shields over Coruscant the instant your ships begin to threaten it. You will be stopped dead in your tracks.

I don't believe I argued on if the capitol had a shield or not. Merely arguing the Rebel base was not an on the fly operation which I thought you were arguing. As well I do find it dubious if the Rebel shield could be linked as you suggested. That capability was never demostrated with that type.

Linked as in a bunch of theater shields spanning the entire planet. It does not involve some magical "linking", it's mere geometry.

You misunderstand. I want canon number. Real solid numbers not idle speculation based upon thin air.

My calculations are based on real life statistics and calculations. Denying that we can make rough but logical and educated estimates on certain factors at all simply because we don't have exact numbers is an appeal to ignorance. We have to have an estimate for the traffic level of Coruscant, because it is entirely relevant to the debate.

It would be like denying a claim that millions of people are using the bathroom on Earth at any given moment because of a lack of hard statistics. Or that there are billions of Earth-like planets somewhere in the universe. Or that there is somebody else with my exact name somewhere, even though I have no proof.

Well unless you have evidence Wookiepedia fracked up the numbers its C-canon that there are single digit trillions living on Coruscant and therefore can not be wrong. Merely overruled or superceded by other more numerous or higher sources.

Yes, it is superceded by the movies, in which it is stated that the entire planet surface is a city. This means that the population of Coruscant is in the dozens of trillions.

No actually pulling a slightly higher warp speed does put us back in the months department.

Prove to me that said warp speeds can be sustained, when it is evident that only lower speeds can be used over long distances.

You have not provided any confirmation of you assertion on the six months figure and it is debatable if the DS2 was at 60%. It had huge holes in it and was missing some vital features like onboard shield generators.

Shielding was already intended to be "rudimentary" in the original Death Star. It is also true that the second DS is far larger than the first one by a debatable margin, but as of the time of RotJ it is "nearly twice as big" (novel), which means that in the same time two DS 1's could have been made. This number will increase as I build more and more and the process becomes streamlined. Even if you assert that it will take 5 years to build a 160 km long Death Star, the numbers do not stack up favorably on your side.

And we have evidence the DS2 doesn't scale downward. Hence 25,000 stardestroyers for the militant Empire. So we have no reason to assume it works with fighters.

25,000 ISD's, but the Confederacy had millions of warships and every sector has its own fleet. Not to mention the SW: WEG figures of hundreds of "heavy destroyers" present at every sector.

And to claim that the DS2 does not scale downwards is showing ignorance of the massive resources needed to construct it and its relevance to constructing individual ISD's. Obviously the scale would not be literally porportional, but a trend of a civilization being able to build a DS faster to being able to build ANYTHING faster is obvious. Whether that means that I can build several hundred billion ISD's or merely several hundred million changes little.

Do you think that the Federation could build a Death Star as fast as the Empire did? If not, then you are conceding that the Alliance's industrial might is superior. Therefore, it can build ships faster.

Droids are widespread but they don't get employed normally in manning ship operations, humans do it.

And what stops me from simply building droid operated ships?

Han pilots, or chewie, the MF. Clones controled the Venators. Imperial humans manned ISD's. It falls to you to prove it is feasible in the StarWars to build droneships ala the M-5.

It is feasible using modern technology to build ships that will lift off and charge at your blockade. It is the case with the CIS in SW.

No it doesn't. They chose to close for some reason. We don't need to know why. But they rather consistently target and shoot at thing in the tens to hundreds of thousands of kilometers.

"We don't need to know why". What we do know is that, in large scale battles, the Federation uses close ranges. In one vs one battles, the Federation sometimes uses long ranges. You're right; we don't need to know why, we just know that in any large scale battle the range for ST will be 10 kilometers.

And what makes you so certain that the Federation fleet will use higher end ranges instead of lower ones? Because you want them too? Because you say so? We have two contradicting piles of evidence, the lower end one being far more numerous, yet you wish to disregard the evidence that does not support your argument without cause.

If its the example I'm thinking off they didn't do that bad, about one fighter per pass missing every other shot IIRC.

If that were true, the casualty rate for the strafing runs would be 50%. You know that it isn't. The Federation would not send their pilots into such impossible odds just as a diversion. In reality, there were several fighters during each strafing run, and perhaps one would get hit every other run.

Hardly uber bad targeting, once again far superior to what Star Wars could hope to accomplish, and done by the Cardies who have hardly the greatest warships. And I think the ships will do very well against freightors and their fighter escorts.

I'm getting annoyed by your insistence to one-up Star Wars on everything when the category only applies to the Federation. In my scenario, I am the one charging unmanned ships at you. You are the one that has to shoot. Not the other way around.

Guarantee? No. But it is the central goverment and a symbol and its captured would hardly unify the diverse organizations of the Alliance.

Being invaded by a foreign power would unify them, as it eventually did against the Vong, and the Alliance gov't under Leia Solo would have been far more competent and unified than the New Republic gov't under Fey'lya.

If Coruscant somehow falls, you still have to contend with the entire rest of the Alliance; millions of planets and the largest industrial base the Federation has ever encountered. More people than the Federation has food to feed. No way to resupply in any reasonable amount of time. A bunch of ships with no industrial base vs a galaxy with an industrial base is a massacre if the invasion does not win very, very quickly. It can't, because warp is too slow, and you don't have enough troops to occupy anything.

I'd prefer to think of this as running simulations than some Roleplay. Assuming that a populace will think centric to themselves and not some greater whole is hardly an absurde assumption.

Fair enough, to a reasonable extent.

No I'm arguing that is how it seems. You see your own problems clearly, the enemy hides his same as you do from him. You don't see him struggling to keep shields at 100% at the expense of cutting life support by a fraction. All you see is you've hammered his ships six ways to sunday and they are still throwing up unbreakable deflector screens.

I was going to make an argument about how, if your statement was correct, every invasion in history would have been successful because they would have "appeared" to be unstoppable for no reason at all, but I figured that you could easily just stall me. So I'll resort to telling you to PROVE IT.

Actually phasers are main combat weapons. Torpedoes are heavy munitions.

Torpedos are used just as much as phasers in space combat and are far more useful in this scenario.

Once again I said that is how it seems.

Because you say so?

The enemy throws wave after wave after wave at you.

No, he throws one wave (by darkstar's strategy) of 30,000 frigate sized ships at you. You control a fleet of millions of far larger ships and several moon sized battle station. The Alliance laughs.

You don't see him agonize over cutting engineering to fill up depleted infantry ranks.

Now we're talking about ground combat? Ground combat is pointless to discuss because the Federation's fleet only has a few million poorly trained redshirts as an absolute maximum that would be defeated by the Red Army in WW2.

All you see is you repulsed the army a dozen times and they still keep coming up with reserves.

Let me get this straight. You reasoning goes like this:

1. So the Federation has 30,000 or so vessels. They could carry perhaps one million troops, since most of the crew will be related to operating the ship.

2. Coruscant has several trillion ("trillions" in RotS novel) people (even though the math points to far more) citizens. If only 1% of that population were to volunteer into the military to defend their home(lower than average volunteer rates in peacetime, FAR lower than volunteer rates in wartime, there were hundreds of thousands of Union and Confederate volunteers at the beginning of the war), then without having to institute even a basic draft the Alliance has several hundred billion soldiers, outnumbering the ENTIRE Federation army several hundred thousand to one.

3. But no...they couldn't all be supplied with weapons! Or actually they could...blasters are incredibly cheap and even armed with modern firearms or even knives and sticks, they would quickly overwhelm a million soldiers...heck, they could do it unarmed...and there are many combat droids and security troops in Coruscant too (billions if you scale up the police:citizen ratio of the US), and they are logically supplied by firearms so therefore Coruscant already has no shortage of blasters...

4. So therefore, the entire ground army that the Federation could carry with its invasion fleet would be defeated horribly by a Coruscant militia. That is one planet out of millions.

5. ...but hey, my rebuttal is...ah fuck it. I'm just going to say that the Alliance will be demoralized by the "endless waves" of Federation soldiers that they will perceive for absolutely no reason. I will say this even though the Republic didn't surrender to the droid army, which was actually far closer to being literally endless with trillions to quintillions of droids, depending on what source you consult, even though Europe did not surrender to the Mongol hordes, which were almost as large as the Federation army and far larger proportionally to the defenders.

6. Conclusion: a poorly trained army smaller than pre-space flight militaries can make a defending force of trillions surrender by "appearing to have endless numbers".

Yes. You don't hear the enemy bicker amongst itself that this is a debacle. And you do realize all of this cuts both ways right? This isn't something special for Star Wars. Its human nature.

So because you "don't hear the enemy bicker" you assume or even emotionally feel that the enemy knows no fear? I sure as hell don't want you to be defending us when the aliens invade.

Sigh. At no point did I ever suggest they would literaly believe the aformentioned merely that is how it would appear and no they wouldn't just sit back point to "math" and say everything going to fine.

Yes, because that is how competent military leaders think. After the initial panic of being invaded by an outside entity (except that THEY HAVE BEEN BEFORE), the public will quickly realize that the enemy numbers less than a millionth of the galactic population and will laugh.

]I didn't say with ease. I said with strain but the ship did survive and did fight on more than one occansion. And since I assume any logistical chain I have would be better than the one Voyager didn't have the fleet will perform better. That isn't good if your plan is to try and wait the fleet out.

Yes it is. The fleet will eventually run out of supplies and its crew will die of old age long before they can ever conquer anything or harm the Alliance in any meaningful way.

Cute. I want data on shipyards, production rates not your attempts to derive estimates based upon nebulous data points.

So the fact that Han Solo owns a ship is a nebulous data point? The idea that he's not rich is a nebulous data point? Basic assumptions of supply and demand are contested?

Or are you just trying to appeal to ignorance as much as you humanly can?

And I did have a figure saying that the Falcon's class of ship had an annual production rate of 10 million ships. I might try looking for it.

Canon source please and I mean provide and excerpt.

You get what you do yourself. Since you cite wookieepedia, so will I.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_galaxy

Well if we have canon evidence .01% of the galactic population owns a starship than that would be something. As is we don't know the exact distrubution of ships merely that is possible for private citizens to purchase them. Our scales could be askewed because we tend to hang out in space ports and such which would have a higher percentage of ship owners to populace than elsewhere.

We know that ships are common enough for Han Solo, who is not rich, to own run, and for Luke to afford passage across half the galaxy on one. Indeed, there are countless characters in SW, mostly half-copies of Han Solo, introduced as spaceship pilots or smugglers that own ships, and none of them are rich; indeed, many are poor.

Therefore, logically a good percentage of people should be able to obtain a starship, meaning that the people:starship ratio cannot be too high. I'm already estimating an extremely high 10,000:1 ratio, which still churns out extreme ship count estimates.

Merely demanding evidence. I never was a fan of these back of the envelope projections, its always funny how "common sense" solutions end up being at odd with how these Sci-Fi type universes actually are.

So you're denying that the Star Wars universe has trillions of vessels, even though we know that everyday citizens can own one and there are 100 quadrillion citizens? This is not making stuff up, this is math. Very basic math, combined with stated facts in canon (such as Han Solo owning a starship).

If you were using it to try and claim an advantage yes I would.

And if I could not find any hard evidence, your response would be to claim that we cannot say that SW has trillions of bathrooms because there is no hard evidence. I guess that Luke Skywalker never took a piss in the OT because there is no hard evidence, regardless of what all the logic and common sense says.

Your statement above is a textbook example of an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy. No really, it's something that I would not be surprised to find on a website wanting to explain it to readers. "Example: demanding evidence that the Star Wars galaxy has lots and lots of bathrooms."

No. Unless you tried to argue for a specific number.

So why not this? Do you honestly think that scientists counted how much hydrogen is in the universe? No, they estimated it, just like I did.

Obviously if you have evidence that would be greatly apreciated but I wasn't planning on comparing the two no.

"that would be greatly appreciated" implies that you would accept it even without citation type evidence. That is good. I am glad that you would not demand evidence that a galactic civilization's industrial might is greater than that of Nazi Germany.

And if you were arguing that their food production was an advantage over the Federation I'd still demand evidence. In debates you must prove your assertions.

Prove what part? That there are 100 quadrillion people in SW galaxy? Canon fact. That humans need food? Scientific and observable fact. That humans need X pounds of food every day? Scientific fact. That you can multiply the number of people with the amount of food each needs on average to find the total sum? Mathematical postulate. That X times Y equals Z? Basic math.

I am. But Lucas or sci-fi writers don't. And they set the universe not you.

Lucas set it up so that Han Solo can own a spaceship. He approved of others who set it up so that there are 100 quadrillion people who aren't any richer or that much poorer than Han Solo. I just did the math.

I'm actually curious where you pulled this gem from. I wasn't aware Earth gave a population figure.

On second look, it was actually the amount of assimilated human drones in an AU on Earth, so it's not concrete. But brief images of Trek Earth do not imply large populations at all, and these are in major population zones such as San Fransisco.

Bzzzt!

BASHIR: If we fight, there will be over nine hundred billion casualties. If we surrender, no one dies. Either way we're in for five generations of Dominion rule. Eventually a rebellion will form, centring on Earth. It'll spread, and within another generation, they'll succeed in conquering the Dominion. The Alpha Quadrant will unite and a new, stronger Federation will rule for thousands of years. Since we can't win this war, why don't we save as many lives as we can? I know it's difficult to accept.

24th century Federation can sustain over nine hundred billion casualties place its population on the lower end roughly at 1 trillion and likely more considering it has to recover and overthrow the Dominion.

You could have edited this out after you read right below that I addressed this statistic.

nearly a trillion actually for just the Federation. A single political entity, we simply do not have sufficent data to make conclusions on the Alpha quadrent in this matter.

No, it was for the entire war, and presumably the majority would belong to the losing side, not the Federation.

To be certain we would need the total population of the Alpha quadrent. We do not posses this to my knowledge. So no it is not certain. And how long Wars has been a spacefaring society matters not in this matter.

Appeal to Ignorance. To be certain that Luke went to the restroom sometime in ANH we would need to see, and even then we could never be certain that it wasn't a Force premonition.

NVery well. At 48,000c it would take about two years to cross 100,000 lightyears. Not 33 years. At 168000c as suggested by That Which Survives {TOS-3} We would be talking about a couple hundred days.

The Voyager never used 48,000 C. Clearly it's rarely available and only for short sprints.

No. You are basing your construction off of a six month assumption you have not provided evidence for. I am looking at the construction of the first death star and looking at the implied time lapse between the firsts destruction and the reveal of the second half way under construction. Until evidence is presented to say otherwise I do not see any error in assuming years to construct death stars.

Highest estimate for DS2's half-complete state is "nearly two years". The math still works out that I will have several by the time the invasion reaches Coruscant.

]And if it worked that way the Empire could have built hundreds of thousands of star destroyers. They didn't. Ergo raw volume of raw resources doesn't scale down to smaller projects. It doesn't mesh with the universe.

They did build millions upon millions of frigates. You overestimate the proportion of their industry that went into ISD's.

Wasn't even thinking of speed, but trans-galatic? ;), but detection of enemy warships, deducing thier destination, determing a plan of action, ordering and arranging for ships flung across your galaxy to all meet up at Coruscant. All takes time.

Deducing their destination? What the fuck? We're talking about a hypothetical invasion of Coruscant.

"Uh, sir. I appears as though the enemy has finally reached Coruscant."
"Darn it! We need to deduce where they are!"

And all of the rest can be done in the 6 month prep time and the time the Federation spends traversing the 100,000 light years and finding Coruscant.

Two thousand ships you may or may not destroy,

No, you'd almost certainly destroy most of them and damage many more.

assuming you could even blow your planet in the first place,

Done several times to planets and some moons, and not just with the Death Star. Example: Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindar.

and the Federation can send another two thousand.

Takes another 6 months or so to assemble and another 3 decades to get to Coruscant, not to mention that word of the attack's failure would take years to reach Earth.

You in turn are out a heavy industrialisted capitol and have trillions of refugees to feed.

100 quadrillion are already being fed.

A fleet assuming this actually worked.

The invasion fleet, which darkstar quantified by citing the size of all of starfleet, implying that he intends to sent the entire navy.

Not particuarly. There would still be eight thousand waiting.

See above. I could mention the impossibility of defending the Federation against a foe that can move thousands of times faster than you, and how impossibly thin your forces would have to be stretched, but that would waste time.

And I think you are seriously downplaying the toll of evacuation, the destruction of a key industrial world, as well as the symbolic defeat of destroying your capitol.

Symbolic defeat my ass. More symbolic and more real is that your entire starfleet was destroyed within days of reaching its goal.

I'm sorry I find this bloody rib tickling. At best you would have destroyed a fifth of the Federation fleet assuming everything worked perfectly and all things considered you've just inflicted far more pain on yourself than you have on your enemy.

You think that destroying a fifth the entire enemy fleet is not devastating?

:) Okay lets just calculate how fast your ships are, using highest G-Canon so we have the most accurate and close picture of the True StarWars universe, So lets look at AOTC

PADME
They'll never get there in time to
save him. They have to come half
way across the galaxy. Look,
Geonosis is less than a parsec away.

If the entire trip took an hour that would be 24192c for a oneway trip of 4 years between galaxies. Even if we assume only fifteen minutes pass your still only to 96768 and a year transit between galaxies plus additional months to leave your galaxy.

Prove that it took an hour. By your calculations, the events of the movies would be entirely impossible. Anakin would have been a teenager by the time he reached Coruscant, Maul would have taken years to reach Tatooine (reality: he did in in under a day), senators would have to spend years in transit time (reality: they can be called for "emergency congress meetings"), etc.

Conversly we have Family Buisness:

KASIDY: It's not what you think. It's kind of a family obligation. You see, my youngest brother, he's a colonist on Cestus Three.
SISKO: That's on the other side of the Federation.
KASIDY: It's so far away, it takes two weeks for a subspace transmission to get here and I'm expecting one tonight. I promised my brother I'd listen to it as it came in.

So 4000 lightyears per week equates out to roughly 192000 for about six months between galaxies.

Given that Darth Maul DEFINITELY (contrary to your empty speculation of taking an hour) arrived on Tatooine from Coruscant in under a day, that's over 10 million C, or far faster than your subspace communication.

So no unless you have G-canon evidence, time and distance stated on screen, I do believe you just failed to outrun my com signal. :)

I do have G canon evidence. See above.

Edit:Fixed a glaring typo, its DS1 not DS2 being built at the close of the Clonewars.

[Mr. Oragahn]

You misread it. I said that 1 trilion was minimum for population, not 900 billion. I actually increased range - my original estimate was 1.2 to 2 trillion people.

EDIT: Earth is, so to speak, "spiritual leader" of Federation. Point was that rebellion would form on Earth, and rest of ex-Federation would soon follow.

And given the rate of war, I doubt that war would have lasted more than a decade-or-so. Maybe two or three decades if Romulans joined late.

I didn't misread anything. I understood that you thought 1 tr was a minimum. I pointed out that it needn't be.

[mojo]

just out of curiosity, what is the great advantage of having 20 death stars surrounding coruscant? i mean, if you can actually manage to hit something with the slow-ass superlasers, the stupid things won't even be able to penetrate the federation ships' navigational shields. aren't you worried about the possibility that you might have 20 planet-busting superlasers rebound off navigational shields and hit coruscant all at once?

see how fucking irritating that is, when people bring up points that have been debunked time and again? you're a jackass.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

just out of curiosity, what is the great advantage of having 20 death stars surrounding coruscant? i mean, if you can actually manage to hit something with the slow-ass superlasers, the stupid things won't even be able to penetrate the federation ships' navigational shields.

So you're going to go down the "teh lazers stopped by navigational shields!!!!" path now?

aren't you worried about the possibility that you might have 20 planet-busting superlasers rebound off navigational shields and hit coruscant all at once?

No, but you should be worried about turbolasers ripping quite easily through navigational shields and vaporizing starships.

see how fucking irritating that is, when people bring up points that have been debunked time and again? you're a jackass.

Says the person who brings up one of the most repeatedly debunked points in the entire history of the debate, looked down upon even by the Trek side. The statement quite literally contains a plethora of logical fallacies to the point in which you could use it as an example in a Logic Class at school to try and figure out all of them out as a classroom discussion.

Of course, I am aware of the slight possibility that you are actually cleverly using sarcasm to try and support your point (which, too, contains a small plethora of fallacies, such as Appeal to Popularity and Tradition)...but I doubt it.

[Admiral Breetai]

just out of curiosity, what is the great advantage of having 20 death stars surrounding coruscant? i mean, if you can actually manage to hit something with the slow-ass superlasers, the stupid things won't even be able to penetrate the federation ships' navigational shields. aren't you worried about the possibility that you might have 20 planet-busting superlasers rebound off navigational shields and hit coruscant all at once?]

not like it matters really 100 Federation ships opening fire simultaneously would blast a deathstar to component atoms

see how fucking irritating that is, when people bring up points that have been debunked time and again? you're a jackass.

yeah the fact that he's guilty of lying three times already in this thread despite no action taken against him..and that he's run from me is also very annoying.

[sonofccn]

The Federation was devastated by the loss of 48 ships when the borg arrived and kicked their asses. Many times the Enterprise is the only ship "within range" of a distress signal call, despite being in the Sol system. At its largest the Federation fleet totaled perhaps 10,000; joined with the rest of the Alpha Quadrant they presumably matched the Dominion fleet. This is not sufficient. 10,000 ships means at most a million poorly trained ground troops, insufficient to occupy Coruscant or even Naboo.

The Federation was not devasted, losses were to be replaced in less than a year, 10,000 is a lower limit based upon it coming near the end of a grueling war, you have not provided evidence on how you are calcuating troops or their caliber and Naboo could be taken over by a solitary starship much less an actualy army.

That is never demonstrated over extended distances

The Chase tens of thousands of lightyears crossedin weeks.

You are going to have a hard enough time locating Coruscant;

Not really. Its as easy as converting a starchart over.

now you wish to locate some outer rim planet that happens to be inhabited?

Their crawling over the out rim, it isn't like Wars is sparse on habitated planets and my agents have six months to find someone and get the location on the unlikely event I don't already know it, because after all I just declared war on the Alliance obviously we've already had cutural contact.

And you can't intercept messages or ships as they use a completely different (and superior)

You will provide evidence for you assertion.

The irony of the last phrase is probably lost on you. It was I that was trying to put a common topic of the debate (charting technology) into practical application for this thread by pointing out that the Federation would not be able to map out the SW galaxy easily since it hasn't done it with the Milky Way after centuries. Instead of explaining how the Federation manages to locate Coruscant and map out the SW galaxy, a necessary step to an invasion, your response is to drop all perspective on the comment and try to one up my claim by pointing out falsely that the Republic hadn't mapped out its galaxy in 25,000 years. This is false, and completely irrelevant as the Republic is not the invader he

Considering I plan on using your charts your comment was irrelevant not mine.

“...and the Emperor, pleased with the concept, ordered construction to begin. An unoccupied and isolated sector of space was chosen as the construction site. For nearly two years, every resource of the Empire was directed toward the completion of the project.” — Star Wars Technical Journal, p.100.

At last some evidence. Funny through how it took everything the Empire had to do it. :)

Which does contradict my source, saying that the Death Star 2 took "nearly 2 years" to complete. If this is the case, then that means that my fleet will contain 20 Death Stars instead of 40. Boo hoo

At best 4 years since it obviously wasn't finished by ROTJ. IN addition you have not provided evidence the Alliance could afford to build that many deathstars.

It is still prevalent in the OT era, particularly in the EU and in the movies as well. The fact that it does not look as CGI-ish does not mean that it is less advanced.

Not in the movies, not to the same degree. Jedi and Clonetroopers have wrist mounted holodispays, you don't see that in the original trilogy. Which is a subtle indication that perhaps resources are being diverted elsewhere.

And completely inferior to ISD's.

No more than Victories who also don't show up for the movies. I mean its nothing solid but its another point that there is like a voracious hole gobbling up every spare resource it can manage.

Incorrect. Although tie fighters are far cheaper than, say, headhunters, they were also produced in far more numerous quantities.

What is incorrect? TIES are cheap mass produced strikecraft without even life support systems. Thats my point, the Empire went with the most cheapest design it could to produce, something inferior one on one with a rebel X-wing. Another indicator the Empire's budget is being strained.

ISD's are significantly larger and more expensive than Venators.

Yes? My point was older ships which should still be in service are completely absent,mainstays appear to have completely vaporized into thin air in 19 years.

If you want proof, in the Star Wars: Death Star novel many of the protagonists do not know about the Death Star project. Those that do have only heard rumors, and severely underestimate its size or power. It was also stated to have cost "trillions" of credits, but if every citizen in the galaxy only paid one credit in tax dollars the Empire would have 100 quadrillion.

You know the drill. Excerpt, page numbers. And I'm still waiting for this 100 quadrillion number to be verified.

It wasn't tiny, but that hardly matters because the Alliance's full scale military mobilization budget would hardly be tiny either. The only thing I have to prove is that the budget used to make the Death Star was not unsustainable over decades.

It wasn't to build a single death star. You wish to try and mass produce it and i want proof that can be done.

That wasn't my point. My point is that I can activate a planetary shield and overlapping theater shields over Coruscant the instant your ships begin to threaten it.

No you can raise shields up to theater shields. Overlapping has not been doned with a theater shield of that type there is certainly no evidence it could be done on the fly so if you don't have a prepared planatary shield your fragged.

Linked as in a bunch of theater shields spanning the entire planet. It does not involve some magical "linking", it's mere geometry.

If they don't "link" then you would have gaps which would defeat your purpose of your shield.

My calculations are based on real life statistics and calculations

They are not canon and Star Wars isn't real life. As the space cowboys and space samuris who use magic should make clear.

Denying that we can make rough but logical and educated estimates on certain factors at all simply because we don't have exact numbers is an appeal to ignorance.

Thems the breaks. We are dealing with fictional universes which typically flash the middle finger to logic and reality. If we disregard the actual universe we are no longer debating Star Wars or Star Trek.

We have to have an estimate for the traffic level of Coruscant, because it is entirely relevant to the debate.

No we don't have to. It would be nice but we are not allowed merely to make up numbers to make our arguments. Provide canon backing or admit you don't know and therefore can not make a declaration either way.

It would be like denying a claim that millions of people are using the bathroom on Earth at any given moment because of a lack of hard statistics.

And if you were trying to make a point from that assertion I would still demand citation. You make an argument you support your argument. Simple.

Yes, it is superceded by the movies, in which it is stated that the entire planet surface is a city. This means that the population of Coruscant is in the dozens of trillions.

No because we are not given population denisties in G-canon. For all we know coruscant is 99.9999999% empty warehouses,factories and what not. You are making an assumption and trying to claim it is G-canon but is merely your assumption it can't break C-canon.

Shielding was already intended to be "rudimentary" in the original Death Star. It is also true that the second DS is far larger than the first one by a debatable margin, but as of the time of RotJ it is "nearly twice as big" (novel), which means that in the same time two DS 1's could have been made.

That would require dupliacting every part, Lord knows how more expensive and time consuming that would be so know I do not take it as writ you can merely half the DS2's construction to arrive at a smaller DS1's construction.

This number will increase as I build more and more and the process becomes streamlined.

Assuming you can keep producing these things, what is your fascination with these overly expensive waste buckets?, without collasping from economic failure and that the process can be streamlined to any further extent.

25,000 ISD's, but the Confederacy had millions of warships and every sector has its own fleet.

Incorrect 25,000 stardestroyers of every single make from Victories to Super-Star Destroyers.

A thousand systems left, out of an Empire that had once spanned a million. Two hundred Star Destroyers remaining from a fleet that had once included over twenty-five thousand of them.

Remember? :)

As to the millions of warships please site source.

Not to mention the SW: WEG figures of hundreds of "heavy destroyers" present at every sector.

Excerpt as well do you have number of sectors?

And to claim that the DS2 does not scale downwards is showing ignorance of the massive resources needed to construct it and its relevance to constructing individual ISD's

Except Star wars fights with fleets of thousands not tens of or hundreds of. The Death Stars are weird anomalies.

Beyond an outlier source or two of dubious credibility.

Whether that means that I can build several hundred billion ISD's or merely several hundred million changes little.

Then you can post evidence the Alliance has hundreds of billions of ISD's equivilent. I can then point to the Clonewars being fought with squadrons of three Venators, with huge battles maybe cracking up into the tens for either side. The Republic which was fighting for its survival and should have had a notable fraction of the Empire's industrial power.

Do you think that the Federation could build a Death Star as fast as the Empire did? If not, then you are conceding that the Alliance's industrial might is superior. Therefore, it can build ships faster.

Death stars are outliers, none representational of fleet production for one reason or another. Using it as a basis is flawed.

And what stops me from simply building droid operated ships?

Nothing really. It just isn't the way Wars people tend to view problems. But if you wish to go all out of the box I in turn do likewise. Say a nanite plague...;)

It is feasible using modern technology to build ships that will lift off and charge at your blockade

We are talking about Star wars not real life.

It is the case with the CIS in SW.

True they did go heavy in robotics but hey go nuts if you want. Frankly I think its a waste of resources but it makes my job easier.

What we do know is that, in large scale battles, the Federation uses close ranges. In one vs one battles, the Federation sometimes uses long ranges. You're right; we don't need to know why, we just know that in any large scale battle the range for ST will be 10 kilometers.

No without knowing why we can not presume to state authorativly they could not engage beyond 10 kilometers. We know they tend to close combat when they have the choice but we also know that they can hit things in the tens to hundreds of thousands of kilometers when called upon. That is a fairly consistent point, out of range is really out there. So no dice.

And what makes you so certain that the Federation fleet will use higher end ranges instead of lower ones?

Because they are not contridicted.

the lower end one being far more numerous,

Feel free to cataloge and let me know how many short range incidents you find. :)

If that were true, the casualty rate for the strafing runs would be 50%.

Well I am going off of memory, you haven't provided any evidence on this, but I recal them losing a ship per pass with the Galor cruiser firing about two phaser strikes per sweep. Now you are free to provide the event in question and prove my memory wrong but you brought it up as evidence so you must provide it.

In reality, there were several fighters during each strafing run, and perhaps one would get hit every other run

? Of course there were several fighters per run but only one was hit which is what I was refering to. The number of hits made by the Galor cruiser.

I'm getting annoyed by your insistence to one-up Star Wars on everything when the category only applies to the Federation.

Targeting certainly doesn't apply only to the Federation and said Federation vessel would perform far better than any Alliaince warship could hope too. I am merely rasing the point on how you can consider it "bad" when its better than the verse your arguing for, who deal with what you are throwing at said ships, could ever hope to do.

Being invaded by a foreign power would unify them

They had trouble unifying against the freaking Vong, guys who wished to kill them for being unpure. Starfleet, with ships that can curbstomp an ISD, will have them most assuredly not anxious in risking their own worlds for powerless goverment which has just lost their capitol.

If Coruscant somehow falls, you still have to contend with the entire rest of the Alliance; millions of planets

Where is the canon statment on millions? The Empire had a million so where is this coming from. And why praytell would any world want to risk losing what is theres for your valor? What does it gain the Imperial remeant for instance to waste one solitary star destroyer against a superior foe with unknown numbers? Better to play it safe and hedge bets for whomever wins and survive.

More people than the Federation has food to feed.

That is possible and I have no desire to feed the Alliance but since we don't know what the Federation can produce in terms of food again this is an empty bit of fluff.

No way to resupply in any reasonable amount of time

Actually if we bring along some Industrial replicators we don't even have to wait for resupply from home.

A bunch of ships with no industrial base vs a galaxy with an industrial base is a massacre if the invasion does not win very, very quickly.

Well using Chase warp speed or Where silence has Lease {TNG-2}

RIKER
Aye, sir.
(to Wesley)
Reverse our direction and set a
course for the Cornelian star
system. Warp two.

WESLEY
Reversing direction, sir.
(adjusts controls)
Course laid in.

RIKER
Engage.

Wesley punches in the command.

48 EXT. SPACE - THE ENTERPRISE (OPTICAL)

We can see only the ship and the darkness of space.

49 INT. MAIN BRIDGE (OPTICAL)

Picard seems to relax a little, leaning back to watch
for the reappearance of the stars. Nothing happens
and he looks questioningly toward Riker.

RIKER
(to Wesley)
Our engines have engaged, haven't
they, Ensign?

WESLEY
Aye, sir.

50 INT. GEORDI'S OFFICE

Geordi, moving between the wall panel and the center
block computers. He waits as if expecting something.
Then he turns to his intercom:

STAR TREK: "Where Silence... " - 9/27/88 - ACT TWO 20.

50 CONTINUED:

GEORDI
Everything all right up there,
Captain?

PICARD'S COM VOICE
Are the engines operating
normally, Engineer?

GEORDI
Everything looks fine here, sir.

PICARD'S COM VOICE
We're increasing to warp four,
Engineer.

We HEAR a slightly higher level of engine sound, then:

GEORDI
We now show warp four, Captain.

51 INT. MAIN BRIDGE (OPTICAL)

The situation is still the same. The viewscreen is
completely dark with Picard, Riker, and the others
looking toward it nervously, puzzled.

PICARD
We should be seeing stars by now,
Data. How far have we come?

DATA
Inertial guidance shows seven
parsecs traveled, Captain.

Thats seven parsecs with a couple minutes passing. Assuming five minutes without noticable strain on the wee engines either would give us a speed 2032128c. The Home galaxy would be barely a hop away.

It can't, because warp is too slow, and you don't have enough troops to occupy anything.

You have proved neither assertion but you are welcome to the attempt.

I was going to make an argument about how, if your statement was correct, every invasion in history would have been successful because they would have "appeared" to be unstoppable for no reason at all, but I figured that you could easily just stall me. So I'll resort to telling you to PROVE IT.

Nah. I figure I'm due stiffing you considering how little you've provided compared to the work I've done compiling evidence. :)

Torpedos are used just as much as phasers in space combat and are far more useful in this scenario.

Phasers are the primary combat weapon, they are fired first and torpedoes are resroted too if phasers prove insufficent and for this scenario they are quite adequate.

No, he throws one wave (by darkstar's strategy) of 30,000 frigate sized ships at you

Actually I think we were talking of infantry at this little point. And the thirty thousand would be your posulation not mine.

You control a fleet of millions of far larger ships and several moon sized battle station. The Alliance laughs.

Actually you control a fleet of a few thousand warships pound per pound inferior to Starfleet's and no moon sized battle stations.

Now we're talking about ground combat? Ground combat is pointless to discuss because the Federation's fleet only has a few million poorly trained redshirts as an absolute maximum that would be defeated by the Red Army in WW2.

1. Provide evidence for claimed numbers
2. Provide evidence for claimed poor training
3. A few milllion Federation soldiers would clean WW2 Earth, the Red Army would be a push over unless you somehow believe they could overcome kiloton scale mortars, phasers hitting with the raw force of broadsides etc
4. Entire worlds are won or lost by a couple batallions of clonetroopers. So millions is overkill.

1. So the Federation has 30,000 or so vessels. They could carry perhaps one million troops, since most of the crew will be related to operating the ship.

I still have no clue where you are getting troop numbers from warships or the thirty thousand from either

Coruscant has several trillion ("trillions" in RotS novel) people (even though the math points to far more) citizens. If only 1% of that population were to volunteer into the military to defend their home

IF. They didn't in the clonewars, instead relying on a few million clonetroopers, so they won't now. So unless you have a canon source stating the Alliance has X number of soldiers I see no reason to assume anything greater than millions for them.

but hey, my rebuttal is...ah fuck it. I'm just going to say that the Alliance will be demoralized by the "endless waves" of Federation soldiers that they will perceive for absolutely no reason. I will say this even though the Republic didn't surrender to the droid army, which was actually far closer to being literally endless with trillions to quintillions of droids, depending on what source you consult, even though Europe did not surrender to the Mongol hordes, which were almost as large as the Federation army and far larger proportionally to the defenders.

First off the Droid army was never quintillions. It was fought off by a few millions clonetroopers who were not supermen. Second as per ROTS Novelization a few brigades could take:

"Don't worry. I have enough clones to take three systems the size of Utapau's."

So conquring worlds is aparently a low key affair. Or you could glance at Umbara where batalliions are deployed to take the world. Or see how many soldiers were dispatched to Ryloth. If anything a multi-million man force would seem like the wrath of God to the inhabitence of Star Wars.

6. Conclusion: a poorly trained army smaller than pre-space flight militaries can make a defending force of trillions surrender by "appearing to have endless numbers".

You are free to prove the size of the Federation army, their training level, and the Alliaince army size.

So because you "don't hear the enemy bicker" you assume or even emotionally feel that the enemy knows no fear?

Must you take everything 100% literaly? Sheesh I know it kinda betrays the whole point of this diversion but please go out and hang out with real people for a while. :)

Yes, because that is how competent military leaders think. After the initial panic of being invaded by an outside entity (except that THEY HAVE BEEN BEFORE), the public will quickly realize that the enemy numbers less than a millionth of the galactic population and will laugh.

No that is how you want to think to try and score some point.

Yes it is. The fleet will eventually run out of supplies and its crew will die of old age long before they can ever conquer anything or harm the Alliance in any meaningful way.

You have asserted this but have provided no evidence. Obviously I wouldn't send a fleet that would take decades to reach anywhere and die. So since I sent them obviously I have million c speed and it just across the pond so to speak. ;)

So the fact that Han Solo owns a ship is a nebulous data point? The idea that he's not rich is a nebulous data point? Basic assumptions of supply and demand are contested?

We don't know demand. If we knew how many out of the population, and the population which you still haven't actually provided, then we could make a case for something. Its quite possible most people don't want a starship.

And I did have a figure saying that the Falcon's class of ship had an annual production rate of 10 million ships. I might try looking for it.

If you can please provide it.

You get what you do yourself. Since you cite wookieepedia, so will I.

It doesn't list a source so no dice buddy.

We know that ships are common enough for Han Solo, who is not rich, to own run, and for Luke to afford passage across half the galaxy on one. Indeed, there are countless characters in SW, mostly half-copies of Han Solo, introduced as spaceship pilots or smugglers that own ships, and none of them are rich; indeed, many are poor.

Which tells us Smugglers frequently can afford ships. It doesn't state trillions of people are buying ships now does it?

So you're denying that the Star Wars universe has trillions of vessels, even though we know that everyday citizens can own one and there are 100 quadrillion citizens?

sigh. One the 100 quadrillion, unsourced by the way, was for the galaxy and it stated lifeforms not sapiants. Pondscum is a lifeform but it doesn't buy cars. Two you have not provided anythign to suggest what fraction of that number are buying starships. Without knowing demand we can not try and guesstimate supply.

And if I could not find any hard evidence, your response would be to claim that we cannot say that SW has trillions of bathrooms because there is no hard evidence.

No. I merely wouldn't make claims based off of it because we don't know anything about it.

I guess that Luke Skywalker never took a piss in the OT because there is no hard evidence, regardless of what all the logic and common sense says.

Since he's human, and humans do produce waste he presumbly does, and again I didn't claim there were no bathrooms. I only said if you were making a claim, such as an industrial feat, it would have to be supported by something not an empty assertion that is must be.

So why not this? Do you honestly think that scientists counted how much hydrogen is in the universe? No, they estimated it, just like I did.

Because their assumptions are based on something of this universe, you wish to use a seperate universe, real life, to try and make guesses based on the Star Wars universe. A verse by its very nature isn't going to be "logical" the way you want it be.

implies that you would accept it even without citation type evidence.

No, I merely don't desire to debate it.

Prove what part? That there are 100 quadrillion people in SW galaxy? Canon fact.

Pending a source.

That humans need food? Scientific and observable fact.

Absolutely.

That humans need X pounds of food every day? Scientific fact.

No problem.

That you can multiply the number of people with the amount of food each needs on average to find the total sum? Mathematical postulate. That X times Y equals Z? Basic math.

True but as I said I don't prefer this back of the envelope work, typically overshoots the actual verse which is what we are here to debate not a "realistic" version.

Lucas set it up so that Han Solo can own a spaceship. He approved of others who set it up so that there are 100 quadrillion people who aren't any richer or that much poorer than Han Solo. I just did the math.

Please provide a quote saying x% of the population owns a spaceship, provide a canon statment on them building trillions of ships, but Han Solo merely owning ship doesn't mean there are trillions sitting around.

On second look, it was actually the amount of assimilated human drones in an AU on Earth, so it's not concrete. But brief images of Trek Earth do not imply large populations at all, and these are in major population zones such as San Fransisco.

There may or there may not. I do not know nor do I feel we have sufficent grounds to speculate.

No, it was for the entire war, and presumably the majority would belong to the losing side, not the Federation.

You have read the quote right? Bashir is talking about the Federation loosing 900 billion and losing the war hence having to overthrow the Domininon generations later.

To be certain that Luke went to the restroom sometime in ANH we would need to see, and even then we could never be certain that it wasn't a Force premonition.

Without knowing B one can not say A is larger. We do not know the population of the alpha quadrent. I mean look at Gideon it had its surface covered in people and that is merely a planet.

The Voyager never used 48,000 C. Clearly it's rarely available and only for short sprints.

Meh. Navigational data, she was in an unexplored area of space. But that wouldn't be a problem for me because I wouldn't launch an unprepared invasion into enemy territory without having at least rudimentry charts.

They did build millions upon millions of frigates.

Please cite source for these frigates.

You overestimate the proportion of their industry that went into ISD's.

Considering they are the primary combat craft of the Empire, like the Venator to the Republic before it, I very much doubt it.

Deducing their destination? What the fuck? We're talking about a hypothetical invasion of Coruscant.

Yes we are. However "They" wouldn't know that now would they? To dip into roleplaying terms there would be a seperation of outer character knowledge of our little disccusion and in character war. You can't claim to know everything I'm going to do and then say you have a counter plan out of thin air.

Uh, sir. I appears as though the enemy has finally reached Coruscant."
"Darn it! We need to deduce where they are!"

Your waiting until the fleet arrives? At that point its too late to call your fleet in I would think.

Done several times to planets and some moons, and not just with the Death Star.

The Death star would not hurt the fleet if fired at a planet, as evidence by the Alderean asteriod field and the lack of an Endor holocaust the blast damage appears to be nullified beyond a certain point.

Example: Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindar.

Please cite the relvalent portions.

Takes another 6 months or so to assemble

Why?

and another 3 decades to get to Coruscant, not to mention that word of the attack's failure would take years to reach Earth

If it takes three decades I don't see a point in sending a fleet. You wouldn't be a threat, you have nothing I need or desire, I'd just ignore you.

100 quadrillion are already being fed.

Feel free to provide proof of the 100 quadrillion at anytime. As well you just moved trillions of them and you now have to devot resources keeping them fed and watered, transported someplace else etc. No matter which way you slice it you just increased your workload for no gain.

The invasion fleet, which darkstar quantified by citing the size of all of starfleet, implying that he intends to sent the entire navy.

I can not find this in his posts? Where is this?

See above. I could mention the impossibility of defending the Federation against a foe that can move thousands of times faster than you

Except your not thousands of times faster, or faster at all when I'm on defense. Again navigational charting, see I told you it was revalelent, and the crippling issues of hyperspace routes...no any invasion would die quite quickly.

Symbolic defeat my ass. More symbolic and more real is that your entire starfleet was destroyed within days of reaching its goal.

Assuming you killed a one of course. Use a superlaser and we get a pretty fireworks display.

You think that destroying a fifth the entire enemy fleet is not devastating?

compared to losing the capitol, its industry, having to still feed, cloth and care for the population? Not overly.

Prove that it took an hour

Hey I went with fifteen minutes and we have two long winded speeches and an important vote all in less time than it takes for a saturday morning cartoon. That is plenty generous. :)

By your calculations, the events of the movies would be entirely impossible. Anakin would have been a teenager by the time he reached Coruscant, Maul would have taken years to reach Tatooine (reality: he did in in under a day), senators would have to spend years in transit time (reality: they can be called for "emergency congress meetings"), etc.

1. Senators live on coruscant hence Padme having an apartment there. 2. That merely means the StarWars galaxy is small enough to traverse across in weeks at high double digits thousands c. A magically small galaxy but doable for a soft space-fantasy. 3. however now that you've forced them into a 50,000 wide galaxy that might cause a wee bit of an issue. :)

Given that Darth Maul DEFINITELY (contrary to your empty speculation of taking an hour) arrived on Tatooine from Coruscant in under a day, that's over 10 million C

Is a distance given in G-canon? Not that I'm aware of. You can't overrule G-canon with C-canon per your own chosen canon policy. So that would be evidence of there being only tens to hundreds of lightyears between Coruscant and Tatoonie.

I do have G canon evidence. See above

You have a guy leaving one planet and arriving at another some time later. No distance at the G-canon level so that can't override Lucas's one true vision. I mean I did specify you need distance and time provided by Movie level canon, highest G-canon.

[Mr. Oragahn]

That wasn't my point. My point is that I can activate a planetary shield and overlapping theater shields over Coruscant the instant your ships begin to threaten it.

Not to be nitpicky, but I think I remember someone speaking of minutes needed to begin raising a planetary shield.
Coruscant's shield system post ROTS seems to be unique in that it produces multi-layers. I don't know if they need several patches to overlap, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case.
Patches means that if one goes down, at least a section of the planet is completely exposed, and may even allow for stuff to be passed beneath the other patches, as it happened on Hoth.
Plus, considering the firepower it takes from a torpedo sphere to pierce a planetary shield (I may have some numbers somewhere here), I'm not even sure they'd be that useful on the medium term, really.
Notice that the Lusankya was landed on Coruscant under the guise of a shield generator being installed. It gives you an idea of their rather very unique size!

@sonofccn

You may want to check out old WEG books. There's one entirely dedicated to the Death Star, and it's full of info on how the Empire managed that project.
Globally, it's surprisingly unscathed in comparison to more recent EU products which have been retconned, either by other EU stuff or by Lucas.

Thats seven parsecs with a couple minutes passing. Assuming five minutes without noticable strain on the wee engines either would give us a speed 2032128c. The Home galaxy would be barely a hop away.

Which means you got something wrong. That speed is a total outlier to Trek, even the fastest figures.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Well, there are plenty of key worlds which seem easily taken with tens of troops, oddly enough, but I'm sure the likes of Coruscant of Christophsis would require a wee bit more?
Oh wait. How many did it take to contest the Trade Federation's claim on Christophsis again?

[Mike DiCenso]

Lucas set it up so that Han Solo can own a spaceship. He approved of others who set it up so that there are 100 quadrillion people who aren't any richer or that much poorer than Han Solo. I just did the math.

Please provide a quote saying x% of the population owns a spaceship, provide a canon statement on them building trillions of ships, but Han Solo merely owning ship doesn't mean there are trillions sitting around.

Han owning his own spaceship would be roughly analogous to someone in our own real life owning a small, private aircraft, or a modest-sized yacht. Hardly rare, but not a very common place thing, either. Han's finances in ANH are the result of bad luck, but it does not always mean he was average or poor, either, and we know the circumstances in which he first won the ship in a high stake Sabacc contest with Lando. I doubt the vast majority of people in SW, just like the vast majority of people IRL do not own a spaceship. Otherwise even small worlds like Tatooine would have Coruscant-like space traffic.

And speaking of traffic, as seen in AoTC and throughout various episodes of TCW, a lot of that traffic is local speeder and transport traffic, not gazillions of starships. So it would be like saying that in the 1950s, the U.S. could successfully defend against a full-out Soviet nuclear strike because most everyone by that time owned a car.

But the other question that SWST has to answer here is where were those trillions of ships he claims when it came to defending Coruscant from the Separatist invasion in RoTS? Why didn't they all just get conscripted and sent to go overwhelm the Confederacy of Independent Systems in it's early stages? It would be like the Federation asking people like Cyrano Jones, Harry Mudd, and Kasidy Yates to go attack the Dominion or Romulan Star Empire. Their ships might have weapons and shields, but by the standards of the time frame in which they respectively live in Trek, that would be certain suicide.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Thats seven parsecs with a couple minutes passing. Assuming five minutes without noticable strain on the wee engines either would give us a speed 2032128c. The Home galaxy would be barely a hop away.

Which means you got something wrong. That speed is a total outlier to Trek, even the fastest figures.

Assuming seven parsecs and five minutes, I get 2,398,838.4c. So he actually low-balled it slightly. This is not too far off from the 1 million c speeds demonstrated in "The Chase", and it's way below the insane 20 million c speed of ST: TFF. In any case, Sonofcnn is just tossing out a high-end Trek number to counter SWST's high-end SW wank.

Fair's fair, right?
-Mike

[Picard]

You misread it. I said that 1 trilion was minimum for population, not 900 billion. I actually increased range - my original estimate was 1.2 to 2 trillion people.

EDIT: Earth is, so to speak, "spiritual leader" of Federation. Point was that rebellion would form on Earth, and rest of ex-Federation would soon follow.

And given the rate of war, I doubt that war would have lasted more than a decade-or-so. Maybe two or three decades if Romulans joined late.

I didn't misread anything. I understood that you thought 1 tr was a minimum. I pointed out that it needn't be.

Yes, it seems that I misread your post.

But as I said, I doubt that war would have lasted even one generation. Even if Earth is just 100 ly from Bajor, Dominion advance woul speed up as Allied numbers dwindled.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

My god...this took my our an hour and a half to write.

[quote="sonofccnThe Federation was not devasted, losses were to be replaced in less than a year, 10,000 is a lower limit based upon it coming near the end of a grueling war, you have not provided evidence on how you are calcuating troops or their caliber and Naboo could be taken over by a solitary starship much less an actualy army.
[/quote]

You have six months to prepare and your rebuttal is that 50 ships were replaced in "less than one year"?

The Chase tens of thousands of lightyears crossedin weeks.

If that were true, the Voyager series would have been 5 episodes long. Unfortunately, that isn't true.

Not really. Its as easy as converting a starchart over.

Which is not easy at all.

Their crawling over the out rim, it isn't like Wars is sparse on habitated planets

Actually, compared to the hundreds of billions of planets, yes it is "sparsely" populated in the sense that your chances of finding an inhabited planet each try is about equal to your chances of winning the lottery.

and my agents have six months to find someone and get the location on the unlikely event I don't already know it,

It will take more than six months for your "agents" (whom will suck as agents, as their unfimilarity with SW culture will make them stand out) to locate an Outer Rim planet than it would for them to locate Coruscant. Are are seraching for a million needles in a stack of one hundred billion straws.

because after all I just declared war on the Alliance obviously we've already had cutural contact.

Says who?

You will provide evidence for you assertion.

My "and superor" statement is in paranthesis because it was merely a side comment, and irrelevant to the point. If you require evidence that you cannot track holocomn signals, remember that the burden of proof would be on you to prove that you can track a signal that you are completely unfamiliar with.

You also ignore the problem of intercepting lone signals or ships in the extreme vastness of space.

Considering I plan on using your charts your comment was irrelevant

Except that, in order to find "my charts", you will have to find a ship or an outer rim planet, both of which will actually be more difficult than finding Coruscant.

not mine.

Actually, even if my statement were irrelevant, yours is still irrelevant because I am not the invader here.
[quoteAt last some evidence. Funny through how it took everything the Empire had to do it. :)
[/quote]

Yes, and every resource I have would be dedicated to the war cause as well in the face of an invasion. Do you have a point?

At best 4 years since it obviously wasn't finished by ROTJ.

That's because it was much, much larger and built in secret. Just make a 160 km Death Star; it would have been completed by then.

There's no need to debate DS2 sizes; we know from the RotJ novel that the DS2 was already almost twice the size of the original.

IN addition you have not provided evidence the Alliance could afford to build that many deathstars.

The Empire afforded to build one in secret, in the outer rim. In the SW: Death Star novel, there was serious speculation that the Empire was going to build a fleet of Death Stars.

Not in the movies, not to the same degree. Jedi and Clonetroopers have wrist mounted holodispays, you don't see that in the original trilogy. Which is a subtle indication that perhaps resources are being diverted elsewhere

Or maybe that said holodisplays are located in the stormtroopers' helmets, which is actually more efficient than being mounted on their wrists. Also, the exclusion of these technologies in the OT does not deny the possibility of their existence, which is confirmed in various OT era EU sources.

Besides, the price of troopers with wrist mounted holograms is completely negligible compared to the price of the two Death Stars, and the resources needed are completely seperate. The Empire could simply have viewed them as a pointless waste of money and have cut them. Either way, you're grasping on some pretty slippery straws. The decline in fancy looks from the two trilogies does not yield the conclusion that the Death Star was costing lots of money.

]No more than Victories who also don't show up for the movies. I mean its nothing solid but its another point that there is like a voracious hole gobbling up every spare resource it can manage.

"It's nothing solid" - then why are you bothering with it? And ISD's are superior to Victories as well. Besides, the common, imperialistic appearance of imperial vessels implies that the new ship designs are not purely for combat reasons.

What is incorrect? TIES are cheap mass produced strikecraft without even life support systems. Thats my point, the Empire went with the most cheapest design it could to produce, something inferior one on one with a rebel X-wing. Another indicator the Empire's budget is being strained.

No, if the budget was being strained the Empire would have resorted to cheap fighters and have produced less of them. Making a cheaper model and then mass producing them to the point of matching or exceeding the cost of the smaller number of headhunters would not have solved their budget problems. Indeed, in the EU it is revealed that the company that made X wings was originally imperial. There are also far more advanced tie models, such as tie defenders, that are expensive as well.

Yes? My point was older ships which should still be in service are completely absent,mainstays appear to have completely vaporized into thin air in 19 years.

Because they became obsolete. This is like questioning the United State's military budget because we no longer produce Shermans.

You know the drill. Excerpt, page numbers. And I'm still waiting for this 100 quadrillion number to be verified.

I borrowed the book from a friend. However, I do remember that the quote I am referring to was at the last page of the book, when Vader escaped from the Death Star after ANH. It went something like this:

"Trillions of credits of infastructure, vehicles, slaves and crew - destroyed in an instant by a lone fighter.

The though brought a smile to Vader's lips."

It wasn't to build a single death star. You wish to try and mass produce it and i want proof that can be done.

I already proved it to you. A single Death Star can, mathematically, be produced in a year. Therefore, 10 can be produced in ten years, more if you factor in the streamlining in production. If the Death Star took up such an enormous portion of the galactic budget for it to be unsustainable, you would not have been able to keep this a secret. You have no proof other than very loose speculation to suggest that the Death Stars were bankrupting the Empire.

No you can raise shields up to theater shields. Overlapping has not been doned with a theater shield of that type there is certainly no evidence it could be done on the fly so if you don't have a prepared planatary shield your fragged.

Except that Coruscant has a planetary shield, and I have an extremely long time to prepare my theater shields if I didn't, so claiming that I would be caught off guard is simply false.

]If they don't "link" then you would have gaps which would defeat your purpose of your shield.

1. Any gaps would not host relevant cities or resources, of course.
2. We know from the fact that ISD's and other objects with exotic shapes are shielded (and many times the shields hug the hull) that shields can have varying shapes and sizes.
3. This is discussion is highly off topic anyway, because Coruscant has a planetary shield that your fleet cannot penetrate. You cannot take it by force because you have too little troops and can't penetrate the shield. You can bombard it because you can't penetrate the shield. Blockading it is your own option, and that doesn't work for several reasons I explained to you earlier.

They are not canon and Star Wars isn't real life. As the space cowboys and space samuris who use magic should make clear.

So mathematics and logistics don't apply to Star Wars?

Unless if you can actually explain how my calculations are wrong instead of simply dismissing them, your entire argument is an Appeal to Ignorance. Why don't you do that? Dissect my calculations and explain how my logic is wrong.

]Thems the breaks. We are dealing with fictional universes which typically flash the middle finger to logic and reality. If we disregard the actual universe we are no longer debating Star Wars or Star Trek.

So if we're not debating on the assumption that you can apply logic, math and science to these universes, WHY THE FUCK ARE WE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION? You clearly believe that, in the Star Wars universe, it's possible for a large portion of 100 quadrillion people to own spaceships and at the same time there to be only a few hundred thousand (random number) spaceships, which is a fundamental violation of mathematics and empirical logic. If that can be violated, then fuck this debate.

No we don't have to. It would be nice but we are not allowed merely to make up numbers to make our arguments. Provide canon backing or admit you don't know and therefore can not make a declaration either way.

I cited several canon sources and made logical extensions based on them. Explain to me how they're wrong, or back off.

And if you were trying to make a point from that assertion I would still demand citation. You make an argument you support your argument. Simple.

Then your knowledge of the most basic of common sense and logic is fundamentally flawed.

No because we are not given population denisties in G-canon. For all we know coruscant is 99.9999999% empty warehouses,factories and what not.

The stupidity in this statement...it burns...cold...hard...acid...

You are making an assumption and trying to claim it is G-canon but is merely your assumption it can't break C-canon.

Explain to me what "assumptions" I make in my post. Every counter to my calculations with premises based on canon sources is dismissed as "speculation", a catch-phrase word that dodges the burden of actually explaining what parts of my post are sketchy.

Then you turn around and claim that the Death Star strained the imperial budget WHEN IT IS NEVER STATED IN CANON. By your logic, this means that you "cannot make an assumption either way". Yet you're more than happy to speculate when it suits your purposes. You may argue that your premises are based on canon citations but so are mine.

Since you have decided to use the line of reasoning: "If X is not explicitly stated in canon, X cannot be arrived to through inductive reasoning based on canon citations, nor can it be mathematically estimated", I shall use it too.

]That would require dupliacting every part,

That's not canon!!!! You're speculating!!!

(no really, it isn't. You really are speculating, just like you accused me of doing, only without the math, reasoning or canon premises behind it).

Lord knows how more expensive and time consuming that would be

That's pure speculation!!! You even admit it yourself because you say "lord knows"!!!!

so know I do not take it as writ you can merely half the DS2's construction to arrive at a smaller DS1's construction.

Doing so will give you a rough, but fairly close, estimate, yes. And rough is all we need, because it doesn't matter whether I have 10 or 20 Death Stars.

Assuming you can keep producing these things, what is your fascination with these overly expensive waste buckets?,

Prove that they're overly expensive using your "only if it's stated explicitly in canon" standard. In other words, provide a quote explicitly saying this.

without collasping from economic failure and that the process can be streamlined to any further extent.

Prove that they would cause economic failure using your "only if it's stated explicitly in canon" standard. In other words, provide a quote explicitly saying this.

] Incorrect 25,000 stardestroyers of every single make from Victories to Super-Star Destroyers.

Yes, but the vast majority are ISD's by this time, as victories are (by your own admission) being phased out and super star destroyers are very rare (you'd better hope so, for your sake).

As to the millions of warships please site source.

Since you have used Wookieepedia frequently:


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_Droid_Army

]Excerpt as well do you have number of sectors?

I'm pretty darn sure that I included the number of sectors in my post, and you gracefully cut it out. Here's the excerpt:


Sector Group: 2 Mobile Deepdocks; 120 very heavy repair ships; 2,260 noncombatant resupply ships; 240 torpedo spheres; 28,372 Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters long; 11,902 heavy frigates/light destroyers 450- 1,000 meters long; 80 heavy Destroyers 1,001-1,600 meters long.

Except Star wars fights with fleets of thousands not tens of or hundreds of. The Death Stars are weird anomalies.

Because in those scenarios, rallying your entire fleet to a single battle leaves the rest of your planets and resources completely open to attack. Here, your entire fleet is focused on one target and your ships aren't fast enough to break off and attack another planet before I could send reinforcements back, so I have nothing to fear from that.

Beyond an outlier source or two of dubious credibility.

I don't give a rat's ass whether you think that a source is of "dubious credibility". You have absolutely no problem with sources that scale firepower by length rather than by surface area or volume, sources that give maximum ranges to missiles in space combat, or sources claiming that a galactic army is 3 million strong. But you do give dubious credibility to any source stating that the Death Star wasn't a magical thermodynamics violating magic trick.

]Then you can post evidence the Alliance has hundreds of billions of ISD's equivilent.

Post evidence that the Federation has thousands of starships. Oh, no you can't. You did exactly what I did, which is to rationally speculate based on what sources you do have to come to a conclusion. Nowhere is it bluntly stated that "the Federation has X troops".

Indeed, this entire debate is "speculation". By your logic; "you cannot state X based on inductive or deductive reasoning, it has to be explicitly stated", you cannot say that the Federation wins because it isn't explicitly stated.

I can then point to the Clonewars being fought with squadrons of three Venators, with huge battles maybe cracking up into the tens for either side. The Republic which was fighting for its survival and should have had a notable fraction of the Empire's industrial power

I've countered this again and again multiple times and you still don't understand that you normally do not send over your entire fleet to a single battle.

Death stars are outliers, none representational of fleet production for one reason or another. Using it as a basis is flawed.

There are no "outliers" in economics and construction. If a nation can build a floating ship the size of Baltimore, you cannot dismiss it as an "outlier". The ability to build X requires by definition prerequisites needed to build X, meaning that the nation must have had said prerequisites.

Nothing really. It just isn't the way Wars people tend to view problems. But if you wish to go all out of the box I in turn do likewise. Say a nanite plague...;)

Nanite plauges are both implausible (I have planetary shields, and if you are in position to launch a nanite plague you are also in position to launch proton torpedos) and techs of the week. Droids are neither.

So since you have no rebuttal to my idea other than "it just isn't the way Wars people tend to view problems" (false: Allana came up with the idea once, the CIS uses it all the time, it is used in Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor when the antagonist sends a remote ship pretending to have the leader in it, when it reality it's a bomb), I presume that you concede that I can use that tactic.

We are talking about Star wars not real life.

So modern AI technology is superior to Wars tech, or are you really this desperate?

[

True they did go heavy in robotics but hey go nuts if you want. Frankly I think its a waste of resources but it makes my job easier.

Exactly, my plan is completely plausible under Star Wars technology, and has been used multiple times in all levels of canon. So now that your attempt to strike down the idea that my plan will ever be used, are you able to explain how my plan fails to break your blockade?

No without knowing why we can not presume to state authorativly they could not engage beyond 10 kilometers.

Very striking Burden of Proof fallacy. You cannot prove "authoritatively" that they would beyond 10 kilometers either.


And a very striking Appeal to Ignorance fallacy. You seem to think that I have to "authoritatively" prove everything I claim, in which case you cannot "authoritatively" prove that Star Trek wins this scenario, and you cannot even close to "authoritatively" prove your theory that the Death Star was bankrupting the Empire. Heck, nothing you have stated can be "authoritatively" proved at all.

Burden of PWe know they tend to close combat when they have the choice but we also know that they can hit things in the tens to hundreds of thousands of kilometers when called upon. That is a fairly consistent point, out of range is really out there. So no dice.

"When they have the choice" - don't they always have a choice? "When called upon?" By whom? By the situation? Wrong, because they fail to use it in various situations that would have benefited from such ranges. Not to mention that you haven't "authoritatively" proven anything and your arguments.

Because they are not contridicted.

In that case, we have two different range categories: short range and long range. Prove that they will use the latter using explicit canon sources (like you demand from me) instead of the former.

]Feel free to cataloge and let me know how many short range incidents you find. :)

Second battle of DS9
Second Battle of Chin'Toka
Battle of Benzar
Battle of Cardassia
Battle of Wolf 359
First Contact fight scenes
ST: 2009 movie fight scenes
ST: Nemesis battle scenes (even cloaked ships were attacking the Enterprise from such a short range the Enterprise could hit them by accident)
Doosmday device
And far more

]Well I am going off of memory, you haven't provided any evidence on this, but I recal them losing a ship per pass with the Galor cruiser firing about two phaser strikes per sweep. Now you are free to provide the event in question and prove my memory wrong but you brought it up as evidence so you must provide it.

Near the end here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN5cR_1Y ... re=related

Of course there were several fighters per run but only one was hit which is what I was refering to. The number of hits made by the Galor cruiser.

"only one was hit" - does this not prove my point?

Targeting certainly doesn't apply only to the Federation and said Federation vessel would perform far better than any Alliaince warship could hope too. I am merely rasing the point on how you can consider it "bad" when its better than the verse your arguing for, who deal with what you are throwing at said ships, could ever hope to do.

Firstly, for the specific scenario of my unmanned drone rush, the importance is one way. If you want to talk about the entire war, AT-AT's were shooting snowspeeders out of the sky. In the RotS novelization LAATs were shooting hallfire missiles out of the sky in 2.5 seconds. ISD's tend to hit X wings at about the same rate as the smaller dominion ships whom had to contend with less fighters over a smaller surface area were.

They had trouble unifying against the freaking Vong, guys who wished to kill them for being unpure.

Oh the military was united and even much of the people were as well, the politicians weren't. Here that problem is effectively neutralized. The Galactic Alliance is far more stable than the New Republic, and a few...accidents can take care of that if it isn't enough.

Besides, they eventually did unite, in time for it to not be too late against the Vong with hyperdrive level FTL speeds and the single minded desire to kill us all.

Starfleet, with ships that can curbstomp an ISD,

Of course, by your own standards you must provide "explicit canon sources" for this to be valid, otherwise we cannot state it one way or another and it's just "idle speculation."

Indeed, I do have canon sources in the form of the ICS2, ICS3, ITW:OT, SW: DS and SW: Slave ship supporting me. You may claim that this is overriden by higher canon, but you don't have cited sources explicitly stating this, do you? And by your line of reasoning, that's what you need, and even if you provide valid mathematics and logic connecting your sources, the other side can just dismiss it all as "speculation" without bothering to explain how it's flawed!

will have them most assuredly not anxious in risking their own worlds for powerless goverment which has just lost their capitol.

They did in the Vong war. They did in the Rebellion. They did in the Second Galactic Civil War.

You still have yet to explain how your fleet penetrates Coruscant's shield or how you counter the various tactics I devised.

Where is the canon statment on millions?

WEG: One Million Member Worlds and 50 million Colonies, Protectorates and Governorships

Bounty Hunter: "In a sector of the galaxy Boba Fett had never heard of, a star went nova; it murdered a world and an entire sentient species. It aroused less comment than had the destruction of Alderaan, only a decade prior; the galaxy at large barely noticed the tragedy, and Fett never heard about it. In a galaxy with over four hundred billion stars, over twenty million intelligent species, such things are bound to happen."

The Empire had a million so where is this coming from.

One million worlds. The obvious reconciliation between this and my sources is that the 50 million refers to various sparsely inhabited colonies that aren't considered to be member planets.

And why praytell would any world want to risk losing what is theres for your valor?

Because you are no threat to them? They bring up their shields and you can't do anything to them, especially not to the planets that are self sufficient, other than stare down at you in anger. Behind their shields they construct a fleet while you cannot do the same, and your crew eventually dies of old age or gets disillusioned. If their shield goes down, you cannot invade their planet because your small, poorly trained army would be defeated by a WW2 civilian militia of similar size.

What does it gain the Imperial remeant for instance to waste one solitary star destroyer against a superior foe

Inferior foe. Your FTL is slower, your industrial base is slower, you consider the ability to shield two capital ships from orbit to be amazing technology (what would they think of shielding an entire planet to hold off a fleet indefinitely, or a giant moon sized battle station from orbit?)

The Last Outpost:

TASHA (over comm): Excuse the interruption, Captain, but this may be worth it. We're now receiving a signal from the probe.

PICARD: We'll take it here, please.

(Viewscreen shows forcefield being projected from planet, holding both the Enterprise and the Ferengi vessel in place)

GEORDI: Incredible!

RIKER: That's our mysterious "something," Captain. It is a forcefield of some kind...

PICARD: Reaching up from the planet surface. What amazing power! How does the legend describe the end of the Tkon Empire?

DATA: By their Sun going supernova, sir.

...

PICARD VO: Captain's log, supplemental. In orbit of the mysterious planet Gamma Tauri IV in the Delphi Ardu star system, whose unexplained forcefield has seized us with a power almost beyond imagination.

with unknown numbers?

Wrong. I am running the GA, I know about the Federation, hence why I also have 6 months to prepare. If I didn't, I would do exactly what you suggested; hyperspace to your Federation and bribe a random citizen on some random colony to give me some info (heck, I don't even have to tell them who I am; just make random conversation).

Or I could just count your ships, as you have them all bunched around Coruscant.

And I know (or will easily figure out) that you only have 100 member worlds and around 1000 colonies. I will also know that the largest war in your history yielded around 800 billion casualties, whereas ours yielded over 300 trillion.

Better to play it safe and hedge bets for whomever wins and survive.

There is no doubt and no bet.
The mathematics do not support a million man ground army occupying a single planet.
You cannot take a single planet with planetary shielding.
You are outnumbered heavily even if you don't agree with my million-vessel-fleet (25,000 star destroyers alone; obviously there are far more frigates and corvettes, and your ship count includes fighters and other small craft).
You have no industrial base while I have one the largest your kind has ever witnessed.
It takes you years to launch strikes against key planets because your FTL is so slow.

As a last resort, I can always just reactivate Centerpoint Station. Or dig up many of the still-functional (as they show up later in the EU) superweapons the Empire was researching in the maw.

Or what about my Death Stars? Even if I only have enough resources to build three, one is too much for you to handle.

That is possible and I have no desire to feed the Alliance

My point is showing the impossible numerical disparity you are up against.

To put things in perspective, Robert E Lee knew that his best chance of winning the war was before the first winter. He had to take DC and force peace negotiations fast, because otherwise the war will drag out, and the North with its 3 to 1 (or so) industrial advantage will win.

Historians agree that one of the main factors behind Hitler's defeat was that the industrial might of the Allies was eight times greater than the Axis powers.

The Americans were able to defeat the British in the Revolution largely because the British had a supply line of several thousand kilometers.

In contrast, your supply line is 100,000 light years long.

Your industrial might is several million times smaller (100 member worlds not including colonies vs 1 million not including colonies, I have within-a-day galactic travel and effectively real time galactic communication while you don't, your advantage, replicators and transporters, are outweighed significantly, especially since Star Wars has "duplicators")

but since we don't know what the Federation can produce in terms of food again this is an empty bit of fluff.

We know that they have less people, and we know that their industrial might is inferior because they can't build a Death Star.

Actually if we bring along some Industrial replicators we don't even have to wait for resupply from home.

Industrial replicators cannot replicate highly complex material, and they require mass and energy.

Well using Chase warp speed or Where silence has Lease {TNG-2}

RIKER
Aye, sir.
(to Wesley)
Reverse our direction and set a
course for the Cornelian star
system. Warp two.

WESLEY
Reversing direction, sir.
(adjusts controls)
Course laid in.

RIKER
Engage.

Wesley punches in the command.

48 EXT. SPACE - THE ENTERPRISE (OPTICAL)

We can see only the ship and the darkness of space.

49 INT. MAIN BRIDGE (OPTICAL)

Picard seems to relax a little, leaning back to watch
for the reappearance of the stars. Nothing happens
and he looks questioningly toward Riker.

RIKER
(to Wesley)
Our engines have engaged, haven't
they, Ensign?

WESLEY
Aye, sir.

50 INT. GEORDI'S OFFICE

Geordi, moving between the wall panel and the center
block computers. He waits as if expecting something.
Then he turns to his intercom:

STAR TREK: "Where Silence... " - 9/27/88 - ACT TWO 20.

50 CONTINUED:

GEORDI
Everything all right up there,
Captain?

PICARD'S COM VOICE
Are the engines operating
normally, Engineer?

GEORDI
Everything looks fine here, sir.

PICARD'S COM VOICE
We're increasing to warp four,
Engineer.

We HEAR a slightly higher level of engine sound, then:

GEORDI
We now show warp four, Captain.

51 INT. MAIN BRIDGE (OPTICAL)

The situation is still the same. The viewscreen is
completely dark with Picard, Riker, and the others
looking toward it nervously, puzzled.

PICARD
We should be seeing stars by now,
Data. How far have we come?

DATA
Inertial guidance shows seven
parsecs traveled, Captain.

Thats seven parsecs with a couple minutes passing. Assuming five minutes without noticable strain on the wee engines either would give us a speed 2032128c. The Home galaxy would be barely a hop away.

1. Prove that it's a "couple of minutes" passing.
2. I don't understand context; did they actually travel seven parsecs, given that they didn't see stars?
3. Explain how this reconciles with the Voyager taking seven years to return home.
4. This is yet another short distance sprint. The Voyager series proves that it does not work over long periods of time.

You have proved neither assertion but you are welcome to the attempt.

I have proven both.

1. Voyager series.

2. Around 30,000 warships (a number that you pulled out of your ass), all starships we see contain a few hundred crew, most devoted to ship duties, you do the math.

Nah. I figure I'm due stiffing you considering how little you've provided compared to the work I've done compiling evidence. :)

In other words, you haven't proven it. You assertion that the Federation "appears to have endless numbers" is complete "idle speculation". You're not fooling anyone either. You're saying "nah" and "stiffing" me because you cannot prove it, and there is no way you possibly could prove that the Federation would appear to have endless numbers because you made the shit up.

Phasers are the primary combat weapon,

Prove. It.

they are fired first

Because they're faster. This is a ridiculous statement. Firing them first does not equate to being the primary weapon.

and torpedoes are resroted too if phasers prove insufficent and for this scenario they are quite adequate.

Phasers miss all the time. Watch the next part in that youtube video I sent you. The two battle lines (because the Federation's tactics are based off of ancient Roman galley warfare) literally pass right threw each other and phasers frequently miss.

]Actually I think we were talking of infantry at this little point. And the thirty thousand would be your posulation not mine.

Feel free to explain to me how 30,000 warships can pack enough troops to outnumber Coruscant. By your own reasoning Coruscant has trillions of people. Explain how you can pack trillions of people onto 30,000- 300 or so meter long warships.

Actually you control a fleet of a few thousand warships

By your own admission, 25000 plus frigates, corvettes and fighters. And by my sources, the CIS had millions of vessels. Here's the SW: WEG:


Sector Groups (Total): 3,200 mobile deepdocks, 192,000 very heavy repair ships; 3,616,000 noncombatant resupply ships; 384,000 torpedo spheres; 45,395,200 Corvettes/Gunships/Light Frigates 101-449 meters long; 19,043,200 heavy frigates/light destroyers 450-1,000 meters long; 128,000 heavy Destroyers 1,001- 1,600 meters long.

The SW: WEG is an OOU source while the 25,000 ship quote was from the PoV from a 3rd person limited narrator. These are specific figures/statistics, while your quote was clearly an estimate and contained less significant figures.

And this is the imperial starfleet, which by your own admission was devoting much of its resources to building Death Stars. It also had to deal with Rebel sabotages. I don't.

pound per pound inferior to Starfleet's

Wrong. I have 200 gigaton MTL's. You lose. This is going by your logic, which is that specific C canon statements > inductive reasoning based on G canon (since you dismissed by reasoning that Coruscant has hundreds of trillions of civilians based on G canon statements by using a C canon source).

and no moon sized battle stations.

The Empire could make them quickly, why can't I?

]1. Provide evidence for claimed numbers

30,000 warships, a highly generous figure that has no evidence supporting it, since by your own reasoning [we don't see SW battles with X amount of ships!] it is false.

30,000 warships with a hundred crew each (the Voyager's crew was 200 and pretty much all were for manning the spaceship, although there are larger ships in starfleet, most are smaller, so this is a good average) equals 3 million.

2. Provide evidence for claimed poor training

The failure of redshirts to use cover or fire supression tactics (Battle of AR558, several Voyager Deadlock in which a dozen intruders take over the ship and force Janeway to set the ship to self destruct, etc).

The fact that large scale ground combat in ST is extremely rare and rarely ever seen, so you cannot expect for redshirts to be well versed in it. This fact is apparent in the lack of an independent infantry branch and the rarity of specialized equipment or training for ground combat.

3. A few milllion Federation soldiers would clean WW2 Earth,

Tanks. Fighters. Nukes. Industry. The fucking ocean. A billion people. Motars. Artillery.

the Red Army would be a push over unless you somehow believe they could overcome kiloton scale mortars,

You mean the ones that Spock and Kirk were standing a kilometer away from and suffered no ill effects from? The ones that they felt safe to handle with their hands? The ones that did not even require eyesight protection or hearing protection when within sight of its blast radius?

phasers hitting with the raw force of broadsides etc

Sometimes they hit that hard. But that clearly uses up too much power to be productive, because otherwise they'd use it all of those times that their enemies are hiding behind packing crates and rocks.

4. Entire worlds are won or lost by a couple batallions of clonetroopers.

Outer rim planets, yes. Coruscant was a completely different story.

So millions is overkill.

If you think that a million soldiers can occupy or take over a planet of trillions, you have clearly not even the slightest knowledge of...well, anything to do with war. And this is not one of those "well, Star Wars isn't logical..." problems. Trying to take over trillions of civilians and billions of law enforcement (Shock Troopers were "omnipresent" on Coruscant, based on standard police:civilian ratio as well) is fundamentally a problem, and cannot be handwaved away.

]I still have no clue where you are getting troop numbers from warships or the thirty thousand from either

The 30,000 from was matching the Dominion fleet, and thus is generous. The troop numbers for the Federation are very generous calculations if you assume that 100% of the crew of every ship was combat capable.

IF. They didn't in the clonewars, instead relying on a few million clonetroopers, so they won't now. So unless you have a canon source stating the Alliance has X number of soldiers I see no reason to assume anything greater than millions for them.

Was Coruscant attacked in the clone wars (other than a diversionary invasion near its end?)? No, it wasn't. Are you claiming that, when their homes are being invaded, the Coruscant populace would not volunteer at rates lower than peacetime volunteering in our world? Is this the tightest straw you could grasp? You make the assumption that everybody will surrender out of terror because your side will "appear" to be stronger for no reason at all, yet you refuse to admit that nobody, not a single person would even volunteer when their homes are being invaded?

Besides, the GA military is not made of clones, it's made of volunteers (even the Empire had volunteers) and is large enough to fight galactic wars. Heck, even many Republic personnel were volunteers (Pelleaon, his lover who was a spy, etc.), and before learning of the clone army, the Senate was considering raising a volunteer army to fight off the CIS. Indeed, the Rebellion was made up of volunteers.

And if that fails, institute a draft.

First off the Droid army was never quintillions.

It's stated in the EU more than once, I believe.

It was fought off by a few millions clonetroopers who were not supermen.

No. After Geonosis, the Republic "immediately ordered 1000 more Acclamators", and Traviss states that they are entirely manned by clones. Based on crew counts of the Acclamator from official sources, this means that there would have to be 16 million just stationed in the immediate wave of Acclamators (it also implies that a single manufacturing company can quickly produce a thousand warships).

Shock troopers are stated to have an "omnipresent" presence in Coruscant, occupying every street and corrider. This takes far more than millions.

The ICSIII, which you will doubtless use as an Ad Hominem excuse to dismiss without any reason, uses Grand Armies as a plural form, implying that there are multiple.

ITW: AotC states that there are millions of divisions of clones (clearly implying that Lama Su was referring to divisions when she says units; and in war, units are rarely ever meant to mean individual soldiers; you say "he was assigned to your unit" without meaning "he was assigned to your soldier").

Second as per ROTS Novelization a few brigades could take:

"Don't worry. I have enough clones to take three systems the size of Utapau's."

So conquring worlds is aparently a low key affair. Or you could glance at Umbara where batalliions are deployed to take the world. Or see how many soldiers were dispatched to Ryloth. If anything a multi-million man force would seem like the wrath of God to the inhabitence of Star Wars.

Your statement is wrong. First, your quote is obvious hyperbole, unless if you think that clone troopers can take three star systems. Second, your claim that a few batallions took Utapau is completely unsupported; we only saw a small portion of the battle onscreen. Third, a multi-million man force cannot occupy or defeat a militia made up of trillions. You have not provided a logical rebuttal to this common sense (and historically proven) claim other than "nah uh, I don't have to be logical...SW and ST aren't logical...uh, but we should still debate it logically, using calculations and all, unless if it doesn't suit me...

You are free to prove the size of the Federation army,

Already did.

their training level,

Already did.

and the Alliaince army size.

Already proved that a Coruscant militia would be billions strong based on hard statistics and facts that you failed to refute other than the ridiculous claim that not a single civilian would volunteer (even though they did in canon, and even though numerous volunteer armies are effective today) to defend their homes.

Alliance army size? Look at the WEG figures. The imperial starfleet (assuming that the sector fleets make up it all) have over 40 million corvettes. Even even just one person manned each corvette and there were no members of the military outside of manning corvettes, that would be larger than your army.

Plus, "millions of divisions".

Must you take everything 100% literaly? Sheesh I know it kinda betrays the whole point of this diversion but please go out and hang out with real people for a while. :)

Explain to me how literally you wish for your statement to be taken, because even taken 1% literally you mean "the enemy appears to be wholely united and devoted", which nobody would conclude because redshirts do know and show fear. They are seen running numerous times by smaller forces.

No that is how you want to think to try and score some point.

The burden of proof is on you to explain what part of your ground troops inspires fear at all. Explain how you would make your armies seem endless, or seem fearless, or seem competent at all.

You have asserted this but have provided no evidence. Obviously I wouldn't send a fleet that would take decades to reach anywhere and die. So since I sent them obviously I have million c speed and it just across the pond so to speak. ;)

If ST had a million C speed, the series would not exist. The Enterprise would not exist, or the ST series's would be about 10 episodes long because they'd get anywhere they'd want to go within hours or days, not allowing for various episodes that happen in between. The Voyager series would be a single episode long. The dominion war would not consist of Federation leaders moaning that "it will take two weeks for them to arrive". The Enterprise will not constantly be "the only ship in range" to a distress call, the Federation would not bother with subspace comns since by your own sources they are slower than your warp drive calcs, the Federation relief fleet will not "not arrive for two weeks", more than just 40 ships will be ready to defend Earth, in the 2009 movie there will not be debate over whether or not there is "time" less to gather the fleet, etc.

]We don't know demand.

We do, because various everyday characters have ships.

If we knew how many out of the population, and the population which you still haven't actually provided, then we could make a case for something. Its quite possible most people don't want a starship.

Most? Yes. I already assumed that only one in 10 thousand people have starships, which already means that only the super-super-elite (like, CEO of a decent sized company elite) of the galaxy could own a ship. That would not include Han Solo or Chewbacca.

It doesn't list a source so no dice buddy.

Are you sure it doesn't?

Which tells us Smugglers frequently can afford ships. It doesn't state trillions of people are buying ships now does it?

It's funny how you have two crucial pieces of evidence that you admit to and type, yet fail hilariously to connect them together. There are 100 quadrillion people in the galaxy. Smugglers can afford ships frequently. Yet, according to you, <trillions of people own spaceships.

So basically, smugglers are part of a financial class near the top, smaller than trillions of people out of 100 quadrillion. So smaller than 0.01% of the population. If I can prove billions, you still lose the debate, but millions might still give you hope. So millions out of quadrillions, the figure needed to not conclude that SW can produce far more than the Federation can, can afford starships. That would be 0.0000000001% of the population. In modern terms, such a class does not even exist because there are only around 7 billion people alive today. But it would be a class of citizens individually wealthier than the United States.

Conclusion (by your logic): smugglers in Star Wars are part of the top trillionth of the population and control more than 99.999999999999999999999% of the wealth in the galaxy. Han Solo is richer than Palpatine. If their financial class is the top billionth instead, that gives me billions of ships. If they're in the top millions, I get trillions, and so forth.

sigh. One the 100 quadrillion, unsourced by the way, was for the galaxy and it stated lifeforms not sapiants.

Wrong, source finally located (Essential Atlas):

"The known galaxy includes nearly a billion inhabited star systems, from uncharted settlements set up by smugglers to megalopolis worlds where scarcely a meter of untouched ground remains. Nearly seventy million of those star systems were sufficiently populated for representation of some sort in the Galactic Empire, a vast bureaucracy responsible for the affairs of more than one hundred quadrillion beings ..."

Pondscum is a lifeform but it doesn't buy cars.

See above.

Two you have not provided anythign to suggest what fraction of that number are buying starships. Without knowing demand we can not try and guesstimate supply.

In order for the calc to turn out to a number that does not immediately prove that Star Wars's industry is impossibly larger than yours, you would have to conclude that less than one in several trillion people own starships (even though the RPG's price them at very reasonable prices), that small group of people including Han Solo and Luke Skywalker, neither of whom were ever rich, even after they gained fame.

No. I merely wouldn't make claims based off of it because we don't know anything about it.

And we don't know anything about whether or Star Trek or Star Wars would win ("knowing anything" by your definition being "having a canon statement explicitly saying it, because I don't want to have to do math or use inferences").

]Since he's human, and humans do produce waste he presumbly does,

Yet you constantly use the "Star Wars isn't logical!' argument to counter my "because of X logically Y is true" arguments.

and again I didn't claim there were no bathrooms.

Yet there is no evidence that there are any, and you refuse to accept inductive or deductive reasoning as proof.

I only said if you were making a claim, such as an industrial feat, it would have to be supported by something not an empty assertion that is must be.

It's not an empty assertion, it's mathematics based on realistic economics and canon statements. An empty assertion would be claiming that the Empire cut the use of holograms because they were being bankrupted by the Death Stars.

]Because their assumptions are based on something of this universe, you wish to use a seperate universe, real life, to try and make guesses based on the Star Wars universe. A verse by its very nature isn't going to be "logical" the way you want it be.

If you refuse to apply logic to the two universes, please say so and I will drop this debate with you and never restart it again. Without assuming that logic and math are empirical, you cannot argue.

]No, I merely don't desire to debate it.

So you would not accept that the Republic has a larger industry than Nazi Germany?

Pending a source.

See above.

Absolutely.

No problem.

True...

Then stop complaining. Whether or not you prefer this "back of the envelope work" (which is what 99% of firepower calculations that you take over explicit ICS2 statements in contradiction to your claimed preferences), it is correct.

Please provide a quote saying x% of the population owns a spaceship,

Smugglers own spaceships. Smugglers are not rich, many are even poor. "not rich" by definition means that they are part of the normal populace in wealth.

provide a canon statment on them building trillions of ships, but Han Solo merely owning ship doesn't mean there are trillions sitting around.

Yes it does. To say otherwise would be to say that Han Solo is wealthier than 99.9999999999999999% of the galaxy.

There may or there may not. I do not know nor do I feel we have sufficent grounds to speculate.

Perhaps, fair enough.

You have read the quote right? Bashir is talking about the Federation loosing 900 billion and losing the war hence having to overthrow the Domininon generations later.

Please show me.

]Without knowing B one can not say A is larger. We do not know the population of the alpha quadrent. I mean look at Gideon it had its surface covered in people and that is merely a planet.

And we do not know the exact size of the Star Wars galaxy so we cannot assume that it is larger than Earth? We do not need an exact population size. We just need estimates accurate to within 3 orders of magnitude.

Meh. Navigational data, she was in an unexplored area of space. But that wouldn't be a problem for me because I wouldn't launch an unprepared invasion into enemy territory without having at least rudimentry charts.

And the Voyager did not have "rudimentary" charts? She obviously did, just not very good ones. You have just six months to try and map out a galaxy, when it took you centuries to map out a portion of your own (SW's mapping tech is irrelevant here). Hyperspace lanes will not help you find safe and fast warp routes.

]Please cite source for these frigates.

SW WEG: 40 million frigates and corvettes.

]Considering they are the primary combat craft of the Empire, like the Venator to the Republic before it, I very much doubt it.

See SW WEG.

Yes we are. However "They" wouldn't know that now would they? To dip into roleplaying terms there would be a seperation of outer character knowledge of our little disccusion and in character war. You can't claim to know everything I'm going to do and then say you have a counter plan out of thin air.

Uh, sir. I appears as though the enemy has finally reached Coruscant."
"Darn it! We need to deduce where they are!"

Your waiting until the fleet arrives? At that point its too late to call your fleet in I would think.

...

My point is that your claim that I could not marshall my billions strong fleet (in canon I have at least millions, WEG) because I would not know where you are, even though your plan is to send your entire fleet to Coruscant, and I was saying that I could attack your fleet once it tried attacking Coruscant. Notice the contradictions?

]The Death star would not hurt the fleet if fired at a planet, as evidence by the Alderean asteriod field and the lack of an Endor holocaust the blast damage appears to be nullified beyond a certain point.

Wrong, the Death Star novel mentions fragments the size of mountains impacting against the Death Star's shield. The Endor holocaust was negated through a combination of wacky hypermatter effects (superlaser is not a hypermatter reactor, albeit powered by one) and the Rebels stopping fragments with their tractors (this is canon, BTW).

]Please cite the relvalent portions.

An imperial research planet was accidentally blown up when experimental gravity bombs went out of control.

Why?

What? Are you claiming that the Federation can assemble another 30,000 ships in less than 6 months?

If it takes three decades I don't see a point in sending a fleet. You wouldn't be a threat, you have nothing I need or desire, I'd just ignore you.

Well, you have to invade by OP rules, and you would fail by this.

Feel free to provide proof of the 100 quadrillion at anytime.

Already did, better it was referring just to Republic citizens.

As well you just moved trillions of them and you now have to devot resources keeping them fed and watered, transported someplace else etc. No matter which way you slice it you just increased your workload for no gain.

My civilization already feeds 100 quadrillion.

I can not find this in his posts? Where is this?

That's the only way in which he could cite 30,000 or so ships, an upper limit for all of starfleet (which, mind you, contradicts your own logic of "we did not see X number in Y battle, so they don't exist"). A small portion of it would consist of, say, the 40 that were there to fight the borg, perhaps the greatest threat the Federation ever faced.

Except your not thousands of times faster, or faster at all when I'm on defense.

Incorrect. Darth Maul traveled to Tatooine from Coruscant in under a day. Depending on your SW galaxy size estimates, this ranges from 7.5 million C to 50 million C.

Again navigational charting, see I told you it was revalelent, and the crippling issues of hyperspace routes...no any invasion would die quite quickly.

...

...

...

My god. We don't have hyperspace routes so we just map them out. Too bad for you that we just have to send in scout ships, scan the night sky for a few seconds, and then hyperspace out and conduct calculations based on data while in hyperspace. Your chances of by chance finding and capturing a scout ship in the quintillions upon quintillions of cubic kilometers of space is smaller than the chances of a billion lightning bolts simultaneously hitting a tree today.

Assuming you killed a one of course. Use a superlaser and we get a pretty fireworks display.

Because you love to claim things without evidence?

compared to losing the capitol, its industry, having to still feed, cloth and care for the population? Not overly.

As my Boba Fett novel shows, a star going nova is completely irrelevant in the Star Wars galaxy, unlike in Star Trek where it's important enough for an episode to revolve around it. Coruscant is big, but it's still a small portion of the overall galactic economy. Again, your sense of scale is severely lacking.

1. Senators live on coruscant hence Padme having an apartment there.

True, but no senator wishing to seek reelection would not travel back to campaign in his or her homeland. Padme, meanwhile, constantly leaves Coruscant (like, throughout all of TCW when they want ratings) and went back to Naboo in AotC without any noticeable time lapsing.)

2. That merely means the StarWars galaxy is small enough to traverse across in weeks at high double digits thousands

Circular reasoning fallacy.

c. A magically small galaxy but doable for a soft space-fantasy.

If you are going to refuse to apply science to the two universes, then every yield we ever made is null and void, and we might as well quit debating now.

3. however now that you've forced them into a 50,000 wide galaxy that might cause a wee bit of an issue. :)

The fact that you left it here and refused to comment further means that you cannot refute it, meaning that 15 million C is canon speed for hyperspace travel to the remote Tatooine that likely lacks any major hyperspace lanes.

Is a distance given in G-canon? Not that I'm aware of. You can't overrule G-canon with C-canon per your own chosen canon policy. So that would be evidence of there being only tens to hundreds of lightyears between Coruscant and Tatoonie.

Sure you can. "They're halfway across the galaxy...Geonosis is less than a parsec away from here", so half the galaxy; in this case 25,000 light years, minus <6 light years.

You have a guy leaving one planet and arriving at another some time later. No distance at the G-canon level so that can't override Lucas's one true vision. I mean I did specify you need distance and time provided by Movie level canon, highest G-canon.

And no time for any of your warp drive estimates are given, you just "estimate" it to be "a few minutes". I DO have distance, shown above.

[Cocytus]

^^

That was Season 3, "Destiny." The comet was actually quite small, given the distribution of the phaser pulses hitting it, and the fact that the ~5 meter Defiant shuttle just barely fits between the resultant fragments. The Defiant opened fire at 10 kilometers from it.

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ny_454.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ny_524.jpg

If anything, "Destiny" is another low end, not that it matters much.

[sonofccn]

Just a quick few highlights, try for the rest either tomorrow or the day after.

True, but no senator wishing to seek reelection would not travel back to campaign in his or her homeland.

1. You were speaking of Emergency sessions and comutting which isn't appliciable for our discussion of FTL travel.

2.Here @9:30 A Quarren very strongly implies Senators don't speak with their constituents Very reguarly. As well @4:30 we have the Seppies taking out a loan for 3 million battledroids with Padme acting as if its the worst thing ever.

Padme, meanwhile, constantly leaves Coruscant (like, throughout all of TCW when they want ratings) and went back to Naboo in AotC without any noticeable time lapsing.)

Didn't deny that but that simply means the distance traveled is not that far.

Circular reasoning fallacy.

No. Circular fallacy would involve me claiming War's ships are slow because their galaxy is small and their galaxy is small because their ship's are slow.

I am obtaining a G-canon speed, as per your chosen canon policy, and therefore concluding a possible G-canon range the various worlds would have to be in order so they can flitter about at the G-canon speed.

If you are going to refuse to apply science to the two universes, then every yield we ever made is null and void, and we might as well quit debating now.

Never said we must never use science but what is canon is canon. Hence FTL drives, the force and the rest of the ball of wax which don't work according to science.

The fact that you left it here and refused to comment further means that you cannot refute it, meaning that 15 million C is canon speed for hyperspace travel to the remote Tatooine that likely lacks any major hyperspace lanes.

You don't understand. There speed doesn't change because you placed them magically in a larger galaxy. G-canon shows a speed which in a 50,000 lightyear wide would take them months to half a year to flitter about it which likely would cause problems to places like Coruscant which require imports.

Sure you can. "They're halfway across the galaxy...Geonosis is less than a parsec away from here", so half the galaxy; in this case 25,000 light years, minus <6 light years.

It doesn't work that way. Halfway across the galaxy has not quantified values, it be anything since we don't know the size of the galaxy at G-level. Conversely Padme gives us a very specific distance, less than a parsec, and we have a rough timeline. Here starting at 1:26:24 they zip into the sky and at 1:31:32 they arrive in system for a bare bones, absolute minimum of five minutes and this involves Palpy using forces powers to teleport thousands of senators into the senate who in turn are bowled over by thirty seconds of Jar-Jar gibberish.

In reality merely calling all the senators up for an emergency session would be a time consuming undertaking and assuming fifteen minutes for the whole shebang is still extremely generous on my part. :)

And no time for any of your warp drive estimates are given

The hell?

GALEN
(continuing)
This... work has occupied my every
waking thought, it's intruded upon
my dreams. It's become my life.
And when it's finished, when I
announce my findings...
(beat)
It will be heard half-way across
the galaxy.

Picard reacts.

PICARD
Tell me --

STAR TREK: "The Chase" - REV. 02/05/93 - ACT ONE 10.

7 CONTINUED: (3)

GALEN
... I'm sorry, Mister Picard. But
that information has a price --
your agreement to join me on the
final leg of this expedition.

A silent beat.

PICARD
For how long?

GALEN
Three months. Perhaps a year. If
we had a starship and complete
diplomatic access -- a matter of
weeks. But we'll have only my
shuttle, the transports we can
arrange, and our combined talents.

Matter of weeks is a time

SISKO
How far is it to Cestus Three?

KASIDY
Eight weeks, at maximum warp.

Eight weeks is a time

When a direct time was stated I gave you it, for Where Silence has least I posted the dialoge so you can see just how little passed and I estimated on the the higher end just to play it safe.

I DO have distance, shown above.

You have nothing to invalidate G-canon evidence so no you don't have a distance. :)