The 1.5 megaton myth

[Picard]

It would be about 8 kt, then; but I doubt I'll re-analyze it soon.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

"Very obvious difference" in how? It is only thing in canon from which we can determine MTL yields, and larger asteroid stpped bolt... vaporizing iron-nickel asteroid is upper limit. Lower limit is setting made-from-gunpowder asteroids on fire...

You still don't understand what an "upper limit" is, and you're still using an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy.

[mojo]

"Very obvious difference" in how? It is only thing in canon from which we can determine MTL yields, and larger asteroid stpped bolt... vaporizing iron-nickel asteroid is upper limit. Lower limit is setting made-from-gunpowder asteroids on fire...

You still don't understand what an "upper limit" is, and you're still using an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy.

upper limit

noun
1. the largest possible quantity [syn: maximum] [ant: lower limit]
2. the limit on the upper (or northernmost) side of something

this seems fairly obvious, but please enlighten us with your interpretation of the term. i expect it will be very different.

Appeal to Ignorance

When the premises of an argument affirm that nothing has been proved about something, and the conclusion makes a definite assertion about that thing, the argument commits an appeal to ignorance.

now, assuming that you agree with this definition of an 'appeal to ignorance', would you do us the favor of bluntly explaining to those of us apparently less intelligent than someone who finds using the oldest goddamn debunked argument sarcastically to be 'clever' how exactly his argument is an appeal to ignorance? explain it like i'm stupider than someone who is forced to set the scales so far in his favor that true argument is impossible to feel comfortable returning to the debate.

[Mr. Oragahn]

now, assuming that you agree with this definition of an 'appeal to ignorance', would you do us the favor of bluntly explaining to those of us apparently less intelligent than someone who finds using the oldest goddamn debunked argument sarcastically to be 'clever' how exactly his argument is an appeal to ignorance? explain it like i'm stupider than someone who is forced to set the scales so far in his favor that true argument is impossible to feel comfortable returning to the debate.

I did no't understoond what you writed.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

upper limit

noun
1. the largest possible quantity [syn: maximum] [ant: lower limit]
2. the limit on the upper (or northernmost) side of something

this seems fairly obvious, but please enlighten us with your interpretation of the term. i expect it will be very different.

Indeed, your definition is right. "largest possible quantity" means the highest quantity that has not been disproven. Based specifically on the asteroid events, being able to vaporize 10 meter long asteroids does not in any way, shape or form deny the possibility of vaporizing, as an extreme example, 1 km long asteroids. It would only do so if the ISD then tried to vaporize a 1 km long asteroid and failed. Being able to do X does not deny the possibility of doing X + 1.

now, assuming that you agree with this definition of an 'appeal to ignorance', would you do us the favor of bluntly explaining to those of us apparently less intelligent than someone who finds using the oldest goddamn debunked argument sarcastically to be 'clever' how exactly his argument is an appeal to ignorance? explain it like i'm stupider than someone who is forced to set the scales so far in his favor that true argument is impossible to feel comfortable returning to the debate.

The argument being used was that, because the asteroids vaporized are the only ones we see vaporized, we should assume that those are the largest asteroids that the ISD's turbolasers have the firepower to vaporize because we can't prove that they can vaporize larger ones.

An analogy to this argument would be saying that, because you saw a tank round penetrate a piece of plywood, we should assume that that piece of plywood is the sturdiest object that a tank round has the energy/momentum to penetrate because we can't prove that they penetrate, say, metal sheets.

[Picard]

Indeed, your definition is right. "largest possible quantity" means the highest quantity that has not been disproven. Based specifically on the asteroid events, being able to vaporize 10 meter long asteroids does not in any way, shape or form deny the possibility of vaporizing, as an extreme example, 1 km long asteroids. It would only do so if the ISD then tried to vaporize a 1 km long asteroid and failed. Being able to do X does not deny the possibility of doing X + 1.

These are largest asteroids we saw vaporized in canon. And we know that some 200 Mt bombardment can drop ISD's shields (asteroid field, RotJ space battle). Yield for MTL fits about OK, considering number and RoF difference between it and HTL on ISD.

[Picard]

"Very obvious difference" in how? It is only thing in canon from which we can determine MTL yields, and larger asteroid stpped bolt... vaporizing iron-nickel asteroid is upper limit. Lower limit is setting made-from-gunpowder asteroids on fire...

You still don't understand what an "upper limit" is, and you're still using an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy.

Where did I use it, please?

[mojo]

The argument being used was that, because the asteroids vaporized are the only ones we see vaporized, we should assume that those are the largest asteroids that the ISD's turbolasers have the firepower to vaporize because we can't prove that they can vaporize larger ones.

uh, yeah. i didn't even bother to read the argument before posting and clearly i picked the wrong moment for that. i assumed i would disagree with you, but if that is actually the argument, yeah, that is pretty dumb. my apologies.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Where did I use it, please?

Please read the above post Mojo quoted.

I would like to bring this to attention:

"Cloaked Star Destroyer!" Han snapped back, twisting the helm yoke viciously, the whole plan suddenly coming clear. "That battle back there over Bothawui- all those ships beating each other into rubble- with a Star Destroyer waiting hidden here, ready to finish them all off and maybe burn Bothawui in the bargain. No survivors, no witnesses, only a battle everyone in the New Republic would blame everyone else for." VOTF p.617

"The preliminary [target] list has been filed," Oissan said, sounding a bit flustered. "We were expecting to have more time to complete it."
"Well, you didn't, did you?" Nalgol bit out, thoroughly disgusted. First the strike team, now Oissan. "Get back to work. We still have an hour or two before the battle out there winds down to where we'll be entering it." VOTF p.651

Come on. Burning a planet down with a single star destroyers so that there are no survivors, no witnesses. Not to mention that these star destroyers are cloaked.

[mojo]

Where did I use it, please?

Please read the above post Mojo quoted.

I would like to bring this to attention:

"Cloaked Star Destroyer!" Han snapped back, twisting the helm yoke viciously, the whole plan suddenly coming clear. "That battle back there over Bothawui- all those ships beating each other into rubble- with a Star Destroyer waiting hidden here, ready to finish them all off and maybe burn Bothawui in the bargain. No survivors, no witnesses, only a battle everyone in the New Republic would blame everyone else for." VOTF p.617

"The preliminary [target] list has been filed," Oissan said, sounding a bit flustered. "We were expecting to have more time to complete it."
"Well, you didn't, did you?" Nalgol bit out, thoroughly disgusted. First the strike team, now Oissan. "Get back to work. We still have an hour or two before the battle out there winds down to where we'll be entering it." VOTF p.651

Come on. Burning a planet down with a single star destroyers so that there are no survivors, no witnesses. Not to mention that these star destroyers are cloaked.

That one is also dumb.

[Picard]

And it's EU, so it cannot disprove anything. Not the asteroid field dropping ISD's shields, not the MTL bolt being completely stopped by larger asteroid (resulting in low double-digit kt yields), not the RotS novel quote.

[Praeothmin]

And this would have happened AFTER the first battle had taken its toll, and it also reeks of hyperbole, but more importantly, it can be dismissed with these higher Canon examples:
RotS, AotC, TCW seasons 1, 2, 3 and 4... :)

[StarWarsStarTrek]

And this would have happened AFTER the first battle had taken its toll, and it also reeks of hyperbole, but more importantly, it can be dismissed with these higher Canon examples:
RotS, AotC, TCW seasons 1, 2, 3 and 4... :)

Hyperbole?

"No survivors, no witnesses, only a battle everyone in the New Republic would blame everyone else for."

A single sapient (read: witness) surviving constitutes as a failure, since the goal is to antagonize "everyone else" to the New Republic. If a single person gets out alive, he/she can spill the beans and the plan is foiled. This means that the BDZ, from a single ISD, not only blockades the entire planet from any single manned craft from escaping, but is so energetic and complete that no sapient could possibly survive, not even ones in "deep planetary shelters", as have been shown to exist in the Dankayo incident.

[Praeothmin]

Let me repeat:

And this would have happened AFTER the first battle had taken its toll, and it also reeks of hyperbole, but more importantly, it can be dismissed with these higher Canon examples:
RotS, AotC, TCW seasons 1, 2, 3 and 4... :)

[Picard]

@SWST
And that matters how? Canon evidence still does not show such yields anywhere, and as far as I remember, this thread was created beacouse you had issues with Darkstar's analysis, which is done by using canon novel.

BTW, if we take RotS novel, which gives 1.5 Mt for HTL (4.5 max.), and compare volume of MTL and HTL bolts, we get ~300 m^3 for MTL (diameter 3.56 meters, length ~30 meters. Link) and ~ 2 570 000 m^3 for HTL bolts (Link). That would give 0,175 kilotons.

Light turbolasers have around 2-3 m^3 bolts, so 1 - 1,75 kilograms of TNT, which meshes well with their performance in movies.