Mike DiCenso wrote:Where did Gowron ever say that about the Federation?Admiral Breetai wrote:Gowron was open about the industrial advantage of the federation
-Mike
I believe he said it himself in DS9
Mike DiCenso wrote:Where did Gowron ever say that about the Federation?Admiral Breetai wrote:Gowron was open about the industrial advantage of the federation
-Mike
Ah, yes, I was under impression he was talking about Federation fleet. However, that number of ships was what was to be ready by the next day, it was not indicative of number of ships in single fleet-level tactical formation.Mike DiCenso wrote:The 1,500 ship number likely comes from DS9's "When It Rains..." where Martok notes that that number of Klingon ships can be readied in a day with the anti-Breen energy-draining weapon modifications.
-Mike
Single Federation fleet had several hundred ships at any given time (at full strength). Full fleet was always in thousands, despite losses.several hundred by that point in the war after taking ungodly losses and they were not yet rebuilt
But majority of Klingon ships are BoP's. Excelsior class, which seems to be workhorse of UFP fleet even in Dominion War, is several times more massive, and probably far stronger.those nine thousand ships would have to be capable of slugging it out with three to five times their number then..because even the klingons after taking ungodly losses could still field high numbers and Gowron was open about the industrial advantage of the federation
But that was from late 2350's to early 2370's. Enterprise-D was probably only second of her class, and Yamato third, with USS Galaxy being project prototype. It would be weird if they did not have at least few dozen Galaxies.they went from having very few galaxies to having at least several per fleet I'd call that a decent ramp up in numbers
That's true. But I'd still say that it meant "less than a year but more than 6 months" since it would be "less than half a year" or "few months" otherwise. However, prevalence of Excelsior and Miranda class starships suggests big building spur in late 22nd and early 23rd century, thus allowing for 17 000 ship fleet.this was before DS9 when the federation was severely stagnant and well really neutered Cardassians went from being a threat to something a major power could bowl over in a matter of months..
Actually, the U.S.S. Challenger with a registry of NCC-71099 would likely have been second or third.Picard wrote:But that was from late 2350's to early 2370's. Enterprise-D was probably only second of her class, and Yamato third, with USS Galaxy being project prototype. It would be weird if they did not have at least few dozen Galaxies.
we don't know fleet sizes pre ass kicking by the Dominion and loss of critical turf I've been rewatching DS9 and we only get numbers after the federation got backed into a cornerPicard wrote: Single Federation fleet had several hundred ships at any given time (at full strength). Full fleet was always in thousands, despite losses.]
I wouldn't underestimate a bird of pray the empire has never really changed them that much for a reason and probably the same reason they keep the excelsior's around (probably even build new ones) they workPicard wrote:
But majority of Klingon ships are BoP's. Excelsior class, which seems to be workhorse of UFP fleet even in Dominion War, is several times more massive, and probably far stronger.
it took the D awhile to be constructed my impression is that they were rare expensive and not really worth a flock of them in peace time..in war how everPicard wrote: But that was from late 2350's to early 2370's. Enterprise-D was probably only second of her class, and Yamato third, with USS Galaxy being project prototype. It would be weird if they did not have at least few dozen Galaxies.
the Mirandas seemed to exist as canon fodder Excelsior class ships have always been around and always get crack upgrades but for example look at the sheer number of smaller craft between early in the war to the end they seemed to fill the roster with a great dealPicard wrote:
That's true. But I'd still say that it meant "less than a year but more than 6 months" since it would be "less than half a year" or "few months" otherwise. However, prevalence of Excelsior and Miranda class starships suggests big building spur in late 22nd and early 23rd century, thus allowing for 17 000 ship fleet.
Under "full fleet" I meant entire Starfleet, not an individual fleet. Sorry for being unclear.Admiral Breetai wrote:we don't know fleet sizes pre ass kicking by the Dominion and loss of critical turf I've been rewatching DS9 and we only get numbers after the federation got backed into a corner
True, but Excelsior is still far more massive than BoP.a pack of BOP's would be nightmarish for an ISD to deal with for example - they're cheap expendable but powerful Excelsior class ships seem to be the same way only minus the expendable part
You prepare for war during peace. After Wolf 359 it became bloody obvious how unprepared Federation was. And it's too late to prepare for war when you're already in one.it took the D awhile to be constructed my impression is that they were rare expensive and not really worth a flock of them in peace time..in war how ever
True.the Mirandas seemed to exist as canon fodder Excelsior class ships have always been around and always get crack upgrades but for example look at the sheer number of smaller craft between early in the war to the end they seemed to fill the roster with a great deal
What do we know about local defense fleets?plus my figure also takes into calculation local defense fleets and the like stuff you may not necessarily see on the front lines but would see defending worlds
Unfortunately, not much, other than that they do exist. In "Unification, Part 2", the Vulcan's dedicated defence vessels were stated to be responding after the jig was up for the Romulans' attempted Trojan Horse invasion plan.Picard wrote:What do we know about local defense fleets?
no problemPicard wrote: Under "full fleet" I meant entire Starfleet, not an individual fleet. Sorry for being unclear.
it is but I'd think the Feds have an easier time building those ships then say the Klingons the d-7's the Feds seem to in the same vein as ww2 America seem to have the industry edgePicard wrote: True, but Excelsior is still far more massive than BoP.
sure but most of those designs seemed to be smaller faster ships with a boat load of guns if the Defiant and others that came around are indicationPicard wrote: You prepare for war during peace. After Wolf 359 it became bloody obvious how unprepared Federation was. And it's too late to prepare for war when you're already in one.
I believe certain Federations member worlds were allowed to maintain they're own fleets can't remember whichPicard wrote: What do we know about local defense fleets?
Indeed through he takes it to almost parody levels at times. It seems the multi-trillion dollar warship with layers of shields and armor just never can win out against the podunk fighter bought at a rummage sale.Admiral Breetai wrote:you can really get a feel for how much Lucas loves his ww2 and pulp era sci fi stuff by the amount of times fighters decide the out come of battles in the films and tv series
It did have its own repensentation in the Senate IIRC and I don't doubt it is powerful but not so much that joined with the Techno Union and the other seperatists they could overwhelm the Republic.Admiral Breetai wrote:well it's enormously powerful economic cartel and may as well be it's own nation in it's own right much like the British East India Company in space it even had the political pull clearly an exception and something built up over time
It is quite true they were losing and being pushed back but I feel assuming loses numbering in the ten(s) of thousands from a Call to Arms to Sacrifice of Angels is unsupportable. We have limited data for the time in question, or indeed for the war itself really, with no evidence Star Fleet was throwing thousands of warships into the funeral pyre. For example just to "hide" an additional ten thousand they'd have to lose the fleet they managed to assemble for Sacrifice of Angels about 16 times and we have indications that at the start of the conflict not every fleet was a humongous multi-hundred battlegroup.Admiral Breetai wrote:I wouldn't not at all Jem'Hadar fighters were taking out galaxy class warships and their shields were completely and totally useless against Dominion weaponry until the battle to take DS9 entire fleets were getting wiped out. they were overwhelmed and the Dominion had a sizeable technological lead over them in the early stages of the war it's very believable they lost tens of thousands of ships.
A Time to Stand wrote:NOG: Shouldn't we have heard something from the Seventh Fleet by now?
DAX: I wouldn't worry just yet. The Tyra system is far enough away that it'll be a day or two before we get any message.
NOG: You think they can stop the Dominion?
O'BRIEN: Damn right they can. Somebody has to.
Only a little over a hundred ships and Bashir indicates such loses are heavy through it is possible he was merely comenting on an entire fleet being put out of comission for the foreseeable future. The fact that the Seventh was kept in service and presumbly restocked with ships certainly is impressive but without knowing how many were brand spanking new warships and how many were pulled from mothballs we can't make any hard and fast production numbers.A time to Stand wrote:BASHIR: I have news of the Seventh Fleet.
SISKO: Go on.
BASHIR: Only fourteen ships made it back to our lines.
MARTOK: Fourteen out of a hundred and twelve.
BASHIR: We can't keep taking these kinds of losses, sir, not if we expect to win this
I would conversly argue engagments started small, where a 112 was a serious comitment, and that over the course of the war the two sides escalated with the Federatin at least pulling everything they could from their boneyards to beef up their fleets.Admiral Breetai wrote:they were loosing hundreds of ships per battle by that point but entire fleets had been obliterated off screen prior to any major fleet engagements and Federation vessels by that point had been beefed up enormously and the Dominion went from being able to send two or three of their bugs against a cap ship to needing a whole hell of allot of ships to bring one down.
By themselves? Mere Galaxy fodder. However take that same task force of a GCS and a pair of Ambassadors versus an ISD flanked on either side by a Victory, a Venator behind it stocked with bombers and all encompensed by four Strike cruisers and eight Carrack light cruisers then I think the odds shift to the Imperial favor.Admiral Breetai wrote:a bunch of Imperial back up cruisers against a GCS backed by some Akiras or an Ambassador I'ma give it to the Feds every time while those ships certainly will help the biggest asset are the ISDs
I'm not sure replicators would weaken his hold as long as he gets them as well. Any planet which manages to acquire the technology would only be able to maintain the status quo with the newly super charged Empire, who'd have a larger industrial base to began with, and they are likely in a better position to absorb the initial R&D period where you try to understand how the magi-tek replicator works.Admiral Breetai wrote:palpatines choke hold on the galaxy would probably be severely weakened by Replicator technology alone transporter tech can still be blocked by shields though it does cut the military budged for ground assets in half all the same.
S31 hasn't wiped out all of the Federation enemies, both the Klingons and the Romulans are close rivals and they are still unified not crippled and decentrilized, so we can not say for sure if they'd simply knock off Palpy. They might decide one dragon they know where he's at is better than a million vipers you can't track.Admiral Breetai wrote:I don't see how much of a wild card S31 would be I mean it benefits both the section and the Ferengi alliance to have a destabilized galaxy full of war lords and a strong democracy movement,. It allows the section a much easier time of infiltration and it allows for much more profit.
Except in, say, The Phantom Menace and Return of the Jedi?sonofccn wrote:Indeed through he takes it to almost parody levels at times. It seems the multi-trillion dollar warship with layers of shields and armor just never can win out against the podunk fighter bought at a rummage sale.Admiral Breetai wrote:you can really get a feel for how much Lucas loves his ww2 and pulp era sci fi stuff by the amount of times fighters decide the out come of battles in the films and tv series
Assuming that ISD's can absorb even one shot. When we take battle of Endor and asteroid field chase into account, I wouldn't put ISD's shields at more than 1 gigaton. Photon torpedoes have yield about 0.5 to 20 gigatons.sonofccn wrote:I don't doubt that at best all its going to take is one or two phaser shots to kill a Carrack but that's a shot or two my big ships won't be absorbing and however little damage it does before it dies is just that much less my big ships have to inflict to get a kill.
They can in movies.Indeed through he takes it to almost parody levels at times. It seems the multi-trillion dollar warship with layers of shields and armor just never can win out against the podunk fighter bought at a rummage sale.
Hmmm...It is quite true they were losing and being pushed back but I feel assuming loses numbering in the ten(s) of thousands from a Call to Arms to Sacrifice of Angels is unsupportable. We have limited data for the time in question, or indeed for the war itself really, with no evidence Star Fleet was throwing thousands of warships into the funeral pyre. For example just to "hide" an additional ten thousand they'd have to lose the fleet they managed to assemble for Sacrifice of Angels about 16 times and we have indications that at the start of the conflict not every fleet was a humongous multi-hundred battlegroup.
Well, Klingons surprised Federation in DS9 with their attack and Martok Changeling was still convinced that Federation is going to win (I think???).it is but I'd think the Feds have an easier time building those ships then say the Klingons the d-7's the Feds seem to in the same vein as ww2 America seem to have the industry edge
Uh a fighter blew up the Trade Federation command ship and single handidly turned a defeat into a victory for the Nabooians. ROTJ saw the DS2 taken out by a MF lead fighter strikeforce as well an A-wing delivered the killing blow to the Executor. I think its justified to say both in-universe and thematicly Lucas has made fighters pivotal.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Except in, say, The Phantom Menace and Return of the Jedi?sonofccn wrote:Indeed through he takes it to almost parody levels at times. It seems the multi-trillion dollar warship with layers of shields and armor just never can win out against the podunk fighter bought at a rummage sale.Admiral Breetai wrote:you can really get a feel for how much Lucas loves his ww2 and pulp era sci fi stuff by the amount of times fighters decide the out come of battles in the films and tv series
Yes assuming that. Suffice it to say we disagree strongly on Trek firepower.Picard wrote:Assuming that ISD's can absorb even one shot. When we take battle of Endor and asteroid field chase into account, I wouldn't put ISD's shields at more than 1 gigaton. Photon torpedoes have yield about 0.5 to 20 gigatons.
Which movies if I may ask?Picard wrote:They can in movies.
Hmmm indeed. Again I think we can safely agree we disagree heavily. Short of going into an all out debate all I can say is your numbers are more back of the envelop projections calculations with many large assumptions made to formulate it all. As an example I do not see how you can assume because one starbase in the 23rd century had ten ships in dock for repair that all starbases would have them in the 24th.Picard wrote:Hmmm...
http://picard578.6te.net/startrek-vs-st ... fleet.html
http://picard578.6te.net/startrek-vs-st ... itary.html
I like your thinking, but I think that argument could only be a secondary one, and possibly a weak one. DS9 didn't have ships about until the war, which brings us to the criteria "large starbases and spacedocks". Using that, one cannot use the total figure of 800 for the later calculation.Mike DiCenso wrote:Most large starbases and spacedocks have at least three or more vessels docked there for repairs that we know of. At least 10 were at Starbase 11 in TOS' "Court Martial" (as seen on the status display graph in Commodore Stone's office), while at least three or four ships were under repair or for general servicing at Starbase 74 in TNG's "11001001", and in TNG's "Redemption, Parts 1 and 2", there were upwards of 23 vessels undergoing various repairs, layover, or were within a day's range for Starbase 234. So a rough average would be 10 vessels per starbase, and with upwards of 800 known starbases, we would soon have nearly 10,000 ships in Starfleet, excluding local defense fleets and the like. This would not include however many ships are out on long range patrols or exploration duty.
-Mike