I challenge darkstar to a debate

[sonofccn]

The Trade Federation numbers for blockading Naboo only range for a few tens of Lucrehulks, and no other support vessels beyond droid fighters. Contrast that with the insane numbers of Dominion ships (which includes a fair number of those 5 km ships) seen in DS9's "What You Leave Behind

Yes sir there are far more vessels shown in WYLB however that fleet represents just about everything left of the Dominion Alpha quadrent fleet as well as the Breen's. The Trade Federation meanwhile is merely a single corporation, a huge megacorp but not presented as an unparreleled industrial juggarnought, laying blockaid to a relativly obscure world out in the boondocks. While the numbers are not on the face impressive, I get about 16-18 Tradeships in the image, I think it helps demostrates that even lesser powers within the Star Wars galaxy can produce large, combat capable crafts in some numbers and combined their output would be impressive even by Trek standards.

I doubt the rebel fleet numbered in the thousands even with Mon Calamari aid I really doubt it based on the highest canon I can buy dozens maybe a few hundred and it seemed the bulk of their fleet was much smaller craft.

And I would concure the Rebellion benifited greatly from conceration of forces while the Empire had to hold on to its entire domain. Still we saw from ROTJ that the Empire could scrounge up about thirty Imperial stardestroyers mark II's if pressed and the SOTG(2007) makes crystal clear they could not spare enough warships to take out the rebellious Calamari and their vital shipyard. So I don't seen a problem with dozens of Mon Calamari cruisers, who are supposed to be slightly inferior in raw fighting ability to an ISD, being built/retrofitted by a single yard in addition to anything else they'd be building.

The republic didn't really have a proper navy at that point which had to help and didn't the clone wars basically bankrupt them?

Well I really only highlighting that a single powerful but overwhelming corporation had the industrial power to manufacture tens of 3km sized vessels and likely had more unless they employed absolutely everything into the blockaid. As to the Republic being bankrupt I'm not sure, I've never seen that episode Heroes on both sides, but it is generaly cited as the acquisition of five million additional clonetroopers which would do that. I kinda of smudge that by assuming that includes all of their equipment, walkers, ships, training as well as the cloners holding the Republic over a barrel knowing they are the only game in town.

while I do believe the wars side has an edge in the initial stages of any war I'm fairly certain a long term war would be disastrous unless they can some how buy or steel replitech

Well to turn back to the 25,000 Star Destroyer figure thats nearly three times the shipcount of the Federation likely fleet number and that is under financing the great boondoggle that is the Death Stars. If the superprojects are cut and the Empire focuses solely on convential fleets they'd likely be able to increase their output. I mean I'm not talking about Star Destroyer.net a million to one industrial advantage, I actually think they'd be quite comparable but with the edge going to the Empire.

Anyway I do think Palpy is too smart to fall into a war once he gets the first inkling of what is on the otherside of the wormhole. After all at best all he'll do is extended himself between two hostile powers who look hungrily on their border for expansion. I really do think Palpy would have the brains to smooth talk the Federation, put at least some of their worries at ease. Play up the corruption of the Old Republic, stress the need for order and give them a song about how he hopes it is a temporary transition back into democracy. You know the whole bit while meanwhile grabbing things like replicators, transporters from every two bit dealer, Orion or Ferengi won't be slow to sell what is outdated technology to them, and backwards engineering them

[sonofccn]

For the Empire/Old Republic/New Republic we know they had the industry to field over twenty thousand warships with lenghts ranging from 900 meters to 1600 likely on average as well as larger specimens in addition to smaller but argubly more numerous assault ships. We know that the Mon Calamari shipyard more or less on their own could spam enough 1200 meter warships plus support that the Empire with its tens of thousands of warships couldn't scrounge up enough of a task force from its dispersed frontier to overpower the aformentioned shipyard even through they were a crucial link in the Rebel's arsenal. The Trade Federation, a powerful subfaction of the Old Republic to be sure but not overpowering, built enough of a 3 KM across frieghter to use them to blockaid a planet. As well we have the two Death Stars which no matter how you slice it means that given enough start up time the Empire/Old Republic/New republic can slap togather a lot of durasteel in a comparativly short time.

So in conclusion while I would agree replicators are a quantum leap forward in industry I think the scale of the million world Empire pushes it out into the lead just not nearly as much as some proponets claim.

The Rebel fleet we see at Endor was pretty much all the ships the Rebels had wasn't it?

It only takes one Trade Fed donut to blockade a planet. As I recall what we see at Naboo was actually hurting the TF's bottom line?

I thought after seeing the prequels that the Death Stars were made mostly from recycled CIS equipment.

Star Wars problem has always been man power for some reason.

1.It was definatly a major projection of force by the rebellion, its destruction at the hands of the DS2 beinging a crushing defeat for them, but I don't know if the fleet they amassed was literely everything they had.

2. We see far more than one Tradeship in orbit around Naboo and I don't recall them saying it was hurting them through I could easily have forgotten that throwaway line.

3. They had the frame up at the end of ROTS but there was still a lot of work to be done, and even assuming it was all built from Sepertists parts the Empire absorbed them back into the fold so the basic idea stays the same.

[Mike DiCenso]

I get about 16-18 Tradeships in the image, I think it helps demostrates that even lesser powers within the Star Wars galaxy can produce large, combat capable crafts in some numbers and combined their output would be impressive even by Trek standards.

Not really, except from an overall tonnage standpoint. Don't forget that the Obsidian Order and Tal'shiar on their own built a similarly sized fleet of four 1.3 km warbirds, and over a dozen 500 meter Keldon-class starships. This would be in real-life terms like the CIA and NRO building four large battleships and or aircraft carriers, plus 16 additional heavy cruisers.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

And I would concure the Rebellion benifited greatly from conceration of forces while the Empire had to hold on to its entire domain. Still we saw from ROTJ that the Empire could scrounge up about thirty Imperial stardestroyers mark II's if pressed and the SOTG(2007) makes crystal clear they could not spare enough warships to take out the rebellious Calamari and their vital shipyard. So I don't seen a problem with dozens of Mon Calamari cruisers, who are supposed to be slightly inferior in raw fighting ability to an ISD, being built/retrofitted by a single yard in addition to anything else they'd be building.

I think they had a better firing arc and greater speed which backed up by heavy bombers (which when used right have been shown to absolutely shred cap ships in TCW and once during Endor an ISD completely collapses to the side of Akbars goggle eyes) and light frigates gives the Rebellion a fast and deadly fleet they're mobility seemed to keep them alive

I can buy maybe at most 100 mon Cali's maybe 150-175 but I doubt all of them would be collected into one fleet they where likely spread out and raiding elsewhere - Endor seemed to have about ten or so present with another two dozen medium and light cap ships

Well I really only highlighting that a single powerful but overwhelming corporation had the industrial power to manufacture tens of 3km sized vessels and likely had more unless they employed absolutely everything into the blockaid. As to the Republic being bankrupt I'm not sure, I've never seen that episode Heroes on both sides, but it is generaly cited as the acquisition of five million additional clonetroopers which would do that. I kinda of smudge that by assuming that includes all of their equipment, walkers, ships, training as well as the cloners holding the Republic over a barrel knowing they are the only game in town.

it's true and I would point out the TF likely had a large fleet built up over many, many years of operation as opposed to recent build ups that many of those freighters likely had been in operation for awhile

my comment regarding bankruptcy was to the TF towards the end of war they seemed to be financially exhausted

[

Well to turn back to the 25,000 Star Destroyer figure thats nearly three times the shipcount of the Federation likely fleet number and that is under financing the great boondoggle that is the Death Stars. If the superprojects are cut and the Empire focuses solely on convential fleets they'd likely be able to increase their output. I mean I'm not talking about Star Destroyer.net a million to one industrial advantage, I actually think they'd be quite comparable but with the edge going to the Empire.

the ten thousand vessel figure was after the war after they had been fighting an exhaustive battle for what two years against an industrially superior force and had suffered some terrible losses both to ships and key planets - they went from having very few Nebulas and Galaxies to having allot of them I think they are likely capable of fielding a great deal more ships and likely had..two or three times the number before the end of the war.

Anyway I do think Palpy is too smart to fall into a war once he gets the first inkling of what is on the otherside of the wormhole. After all at best all he'll do is extended himself between two hostile powers who look hungrily on their border for expansion. I really do think Palpy would have the brains to smooth talk the Federation, put at least some of their worries at ease. Play up the corruption of the Old Republic, stress the need for order and give them a song about how he hopes it is a temporary transition back into democracy. You know the whole bit while meanwhile grabbing things like replicators, transporters from every two bit dealer, Orion or Ferengi won't be slow to sell what is outdated technology to them, and backwards engineering them

and the Feds wouldn't buy it for a second :) but they wouldn't attack either I think they'd do what they did with the Dominion ignore them cut off ties and keep doing what they do..until attacked. palpy can probably get some kind of treaty with them or the Romulans..the Ferengi might be turned off by the racism or visa versa but I could see them doing business with corrupt moffs and the like

the issues gonna be will S31 or The Ferengi or something contact the Rebellion and start covertly offering them aid either for profit or in S's case to weaken an enemy and maybe even appoint some puppets in the new regime. Of course how Palpy responds and what condition the Galaxy is in when this happens

I think invading Federation space is going to be allot harder for Sidious unless he can demolish the Rebellion or get his hands on some old replitech and a Federation invasion of GE space would likely consist of smashing shipyards and neutralizing key sectors or providing aid to the Rebellion and nothing else

thoughts?

I could have seen the TF ships not opening fire right away, if they were taking a few seconds to transmit a warning to the Naboo royal cruiser to stand down and prepare to be boarded. But that's not what happened, obviously.
-Mike

seems damning to the GT plus fire power argument as well seeing as they fired in the direction of the planet and unless TL bolts fizzle out and have a short "travel" life span it's doubtful that they didn't collide with the planet and nothing leads me to believe nabuu was shielded so yeah

Not really, except from an overall tonnage standpoint. Don't forget that the Obsidian Order and Tal'shiar on their own built a similarly sized fleet of four 1.3 km warbirds, and over a dozen 500 meter Keldon-class starships. This would be in real-life terms like the CIA and NRO building four large battleships and or aircraft carriers, plus 16 additional heavy cruisers.
-Mike

with out any one noticing the CIA builds 4 Nimitz class carriers a bunch of our top of the line battlecruisers and a bunch of nuclear power subs and manning them with out any one being the wiser or a dramatic resource or financial bleed that would be noticeable...that's a scary and bad ass thought

but put in perspective in speaks volumes for the industrial capability of AQ powers - that such an expensive venture was barely noticed

mind you imperial intelligence might be capable of something similar

[Mike DiCenso]

Maybe they could. But we have never seen anything like that in the highest canon of the movies. Nor am I aware of any similar feat in the SW EU, either. I don't count the TCW, since most of the ship construction involves the industrial capabilities of the thousands of solar systems on either side of the Clone Wars in conventional fashion, and none of the respective intelligence services for the Republic or CIS have really figured strongly in them for us to get an idea what they were capable of.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

I should probably clarify buying old hulls from fleet junkyards and suping them up with modern weaponry covertly..seems doable

but actually amassing a fleet like that? with as many as a dozen ISD's needed? your absolutely right not possible with out notice

but the way I described above?

[Picard]

Well to turn back to the 25,000 Star Destroyer figure thats nearly three times the shipcount of the Federation likely fleet number and that is under financing the great boondoggle that is the Death Stars. If the superprojects are cut and the Empire focuses solely on convential fleets they'd likely be able to increase their output. I mean I'm not talking about Star Destroyer.net a million to one industrial advantage, I actually think they'd be quite comparable but with the edge going to the Empire.

the ten thousand vessel figure was after the war after they had been fighting an exhaustive battle for what two years against an industrially superior force and had suffered some terrible losses both to ships and key planets - they went from having very few Nebulas and Galaxies to having allot of them I think they are likely capable of fielding a great deal more ships and likely had..two or three times the number before the end of the war.

http://picard578.6te.net/startrek-vs-st ... fleet.html

http://picard578.6te.net/startrek-vs-st ... fleet.html

6 000 to 30 000 capital ships for Federation, and about 26 000 ships of ISD-level equivalence for the Empire (that might be 15 000 ISD's and 50 000 frigates, plus 150 000 corvettes, if one frigate (same type as Rebel Medical Frigate) is 1/10th strength of an ISD, and blockade runner (corvette; such as used by Leia) 1/3rd of that - I doubt that TIE's are noticeable part of the fleet).

But:

http://picard578.6te.net/startrek-vs-st ... itary.html

Cardassia might have about 5 000 ships maximum, and probably about 1500 ships minimum, since they did manage to stop Klingon invasion once Federation intervened. Klingon Empire probably has similar number of ships as Federation does - maybe larger, since majority are BoP's. Federation has 6 000 to 17 000 ships; so Klingons should have 5 000 to 20 000 ships. Romulan Warbirds are quite massive, so that would be 500 to 1 500 ships. That is 13 000 to 43 500 ships for four local powers.

As for manpower, my estimates for 4 powers combined anpower are from 180 to 600, maybe 800 million men in active military service. My estimate for Galactic Empire fleet crews would probably imply 500 million to 1 billion total manpower for Imperial military. Granted, last figures (for GE total manpower) are rough estimates, "done on the fly", but I doubt that error factor is too high - certainly not high enough to allow for hundreds of billions to trillions for GE manpower - highest figure I may agree upon is 5 billion men.



So, it is 13k to 43k ships vs ~200k ships. Ratio from 1:4.65 to 1:15.38 for the Empire. However, with firepower, speed and strategic and tactical mobility difference (since I seriously doubt Federation will attack Empire) as well as fact that most UFP planets probably have planetary shields and likes... EDIT: but then again, Death Stars mean that Imperial ship count might be 30% to 100% larger than these figures (I doubt it would more than double ship count, since Death Stars were built over quite large timespan; also, Death Stars probably have quite low crew counts, and crew support and pays are probably among larger Imperial expenditures).

[sonofccn]

Not really, except from an overall tonnage standpoint. Don't forget that the Obsidian Order and Tal'shiar on their own built a similarly sized fleet of four 1.3 km warbirds, and over a dozen 500 meter Keldon-class starships. This would be in real-life terms like the CIA and NRO building four large battleships and or aircraft carriers, plus 16 additional heavy cruisers.

Which is impressive sir don't misunderstand me but I'm not sure how we are to score that. It was too powerful, secretive insititutions who poured so much manpower and resources into constructing their battlefleet its destruction was considered a worthwhile endevour for the Dominion to hobble both Agencies. I'm not sure how well this compares to an average system, ie producing 20 odd vessels 500 meters plus in lenght in about a year or so, if at all. Not to sound argumenative or anything.

I think they had a better firing arc and greater speed which backed up by heavy bombers

Well its supposed to be the bombers which put a MC80 over the ISD with the ship itself being slightly weaker in ship to ship combat if for some reason you removed strikecraft from both vessels.

I can buy maybe at most 100 mon Cali's maybe 150-175 but I doubt all of them would be collected into one fleet they where likely spread out and raiding elsewhere - Endor seemed to have about ten or so present with another two dozen medium and light cap ships

I can agree with this.

it's true and I would point out the TF likely had a large fleet built up over many, many years of operation as opposed to recent build ups that many of those freighters likely had been in operation for awhile

True. I didn't mean to imply they built it all overnight, merely that a single power had the capability to build large quasi-warships.( Well they did get employed as such)

the ten thousand vessel figure was after the war after they had been fighting an exhaustive battle for what two years against an industrially superior force and had suffered some terrible losses both to ships and key planets - they went from having very few Nebulas and Galaxies to having allot of them I think they are likely capable of fielding a great deal more ships and likely had..two or three times the number before the end of the war.

True they had already been grinding war for some time and you could easily argue more than the rough, hazy guess of ten thousand the Federation is pegged at but I would be cautious about assuming the Federation lost ten or twenty thousand vessels by that point. They appeared to be losing hundreds of ships per major battle, not thousands. As well we don't know how many of those numbers were old mothballed vessels pulled back to service, yes they obviously expanded production of their newer ships but old workhorses like Mirandas and Excelsors stayed with the fleet until the end IIRC.

In addition the 25,000 star destroyers, while the crux of their starfleet firepower, is only part of the Imperial navy. You also have Carrack cruisers, strike cruisers, and frigates which pad their numbers still further and while heavily inferior singularly in packs supported by star destroyers should pose something of a threat.

and the Feds wouldn't buy it for a second :) but they wouldn't attack either I think they'd do what they did with the Dominion ignore them cut off ties and keep doing what they do..until attacked.

True but just keeping the Feds off his back is all Palpy needs to began "modernizing" his empire. Imagine what the empire could do if it had say transporters or even less ground breaking halfway decent sensors. A lowly tricorder likely would have prevented Han lets hide underneath the deck plate plan when they were pulled into the DS and is far more portable than that bulky crate the scanner team hauled up.

the issues gonna be will S31 or The Ferengi or something contact the Rebellion and start covertly offering them aid either for profit or in S's case to weaken an enemy and maybe even appoint some puppets in the new regime. Of course how Palpy responds and what condition the Galaxy is in when this happens

S13 are wild cards. They could do just about anything, really depends on how they percieve the Empire and what they feel like doing. The Ferengi I see more along the lines of "cash and carry", well not literaly per say but acting as a neutral third party who'd trade with anyone who shows up with currency and I think they can flex enough muscle to keep the Empire from too heavily cracking down on them. The Empire of course can outbid the Rebellion so in a pricing war, which would happen five seconds after the Ferengi realize their is a rebellion, they should come out on top most of the time.

[Admiral Breetai]

]Well its supposed to be the bombers which put a MC80 over the ISD with the ship itself being slightly weaker in ship to ship combat if for some reason you removed strikecraft from both vessels.

you can really get a feel for how much Lucas loves his ww2 and pulp era sci fi stuff by the amount of times fighters decide the out come of battles in the films and tv series

]I can agree with this.

while nothing in the movies supports Akbars EU genius (seriously that was completely contradicted by his actions at Endor) he wasn't stupid I can see him and other Rebel CO's using Endor as the big battle while smaller fleets hit various minor or mid priority imperial worlds all around the outer rim or mid rim during that battle...at least it'd be a smart tactic

True. I didn't mean to imply they built it all overnight, merely that a single power had the capability to build large quasi-warships.( Well they did get employed as such)

well it's enormously powerful economic cartel and may as well be it's own nation in it's own right much like the British East India Company in space it even had the political pull clearly an exception and something built up over time

it's impressive but I'm not sure how many groups can claim the same

True they had already been grinding war for some time and you could easily argue more than the rough, hazy guess of ten thousand the Federation is pegged at but I would be cautious about assuming the Federation lost ten or twenty thousand vessels by that point.

I wouldn't not at all Jem'Hadar fighters were taking out galaxy class warships and their shields were completely and totally useless against Dominion weaponry until the battle to take DS9 entire fleets were getting wiped out. they were overwhelmed and the Dominion had a sizeable technological lead over them in the early stages of the war it's very believable they lost tens of thousands of ships. The Klingons got hurled out of Cardassian space in a matter of hours with even Gowrons monster cap ship receiving enough damage he had a mangled arm and it was a constant string of defeats until the Romulans got in..even critical worlds like Betazed had crummy defenses because things got so bad I would certainly say it's very possible that they lost ten plus thousand ships they were taking a horrific ass beating. Not to mention FC's Borg rampage which seemed to happen either before or during the Dominion war

iirc the Dominion seemed to seize control of decent percentage of Federation space

They appeared to be losing hundreds of ships per major battle, not thousands. As well we don't know how many of those numbers were old mothballed vessels pulled back to service, yes they obviously expanded production of their newer ships but old workhorses like Mirandas and Excelsors stayed with the fleet until the end IIRC.

they were loosing hundreds of ships per battle by that point but entire fleets had been obliterated off screen prior to any major fleet engagements and Federation vessels by that point had been beefed up enormously and the Dominion went from being able to send two or three of their bugs against a cap ship to needing a whole hell of allot of ships to bring one down.

In addition the 25,000 star destroyers, while the crux of their starfleet firepower, is only part of the Imperial navy. You also have Carrack cruisers, strike cruisers, and frigates which pad their numbers still further and while heavily inferior singularly in packs supported by star destroyers should pose something of a threat.

a bunch of Imperial back up cruisers against a GCS backed by some Akiras or an Ambassador I'ma give it to the Feds every time while those ships certainly will help the biggest asset are the ISDs

True but just keeping the Feds off his back is all Palpy needs to began "modernizing" his empire. Imagine what the empire could do if it had say transporters or even less ground breaking halfway decent sensors. A lowly tricorder likely would have prevented Han lets hide underneath the deck plate plan when they were pulled into the DS and is far more portable than that bulky crate the scanner team hauled up.

palpatines choke hold on the galaxy would probably be severely weakened by Replicator technology alone transporter tech can still be blocked by shields though it does cut the military budged for ground assets in half all the same.

S13 are wild cards. They could do just about anything, really depends on how they percieve the Empire and what they feel like doing. The Ferengi I see more along the lines of "cash and carry", well not literaly per say but acting as a neutral third party who'd trade with anyone who shows up with currency and I think they can flex enough muscle to keep the Empire from too heavily cracking down on them. The Empire of course can outbid the Rebellion so in a pricing war, which would happen five seconds after the Ferengi realize their is a rebellion, they should come out on top most of the time.

I don't see how much of a wild card S31 would be I mean it benefits both the section and the Ferengi alliance to have a destabilized galaxy full of war lords and a strong democracy movement,. It allows the section a much easier time of infiltration and it allows for much more profit.

The Ferengi might not of course do that and just trade to who ever they maybe more interested in exotic food and resources than Imperial or Rebel currency bartering and trading is doable

[snips for length.

I actually think it's a bit larger for both sides with 25,000 - 30,000 ISD's of varying classes and maybe close to 700k smaller craft

and for the Feds at full war footing would probably have closer to 60,000 maybe a bit more if you include all the oldies they hurled at the Dominion while they modernized the fleet.

I've always thought the Dominion had a fleet around 120k plus in the AQ

[Picard]

I actually think it's a bit larger for both sides with 25,000 - 30,000 ISD's of varying classes and maybe close to 700k smaller craft

and for the Feds at full war footing would probably have closer to 60,000 maybe a bit more if you include all the oldies they hurled at the Dominion while they modernized the fleet.

I've always thought the Dominion had a fleet around 120k plus in the AQ

Well... only thing I can say is that you should read pages and tell me exactly what and why you don't agree with, and, if possible, explain how you got these numbers (I have explained my numbers on linked pages).

[Admiral Breetai]

Well... only thing I can say is that you should read pages and tell me exactly what and why you don't agree with, and, if possible, explain how you got these numbers (I have explained my numbers on linked pages).

Fleet sizes in the Dominion war seemed to range between 600- 1,500 and there seemed to be at least six fleets we know about (likely more) that would of had to be constantly maintained in stable numbers to be effective- one of which got almost completely wiped out early on the war but months later was back in action a year later, you mix this with local defense forces and the like and it does paint a picture of a fleet at it's max in the high tens of thousands to maaaybbbe *stretching it a bit much* close to a hundred k..

although I think it's more 45,000-60,000 would be what you could expect of the dominion war era fleet if it hadn't taken such terrible losses

The dominion seemed to have more all the time and really played on the numeric issue later on when you had multiple domie vessels vs single Fed cap ships and the like

as for the Empire? I would think that they'd need more smaller craft to "project" an ISD battle groups capabilities across sector an ISD maybe a game changer but it isn't omnipresent you'd kinda need fodder craft to project a bit more or at the very least older crappier Star Destroyer models to supplement other wise your essentially a late Roman Empire period Empire with basically a paper tiger militia and not a proper navy

[Picard]

600-ship fleet was comprised from elements of two fleets. One element was 300 ships; meaning that one full fleet is 600 to 900 ships, most likely. As for 1500-ship-number, I don't remember Federation ever fielding such a fleet, so I'd like you to name the episode (I don't doubt it's DS9). And there were probably about 10 fleets in service (Tenth fleet is highest number we know of in service, and since it is implied that fleets were formed for Dominion War, there is no reason to assume gaps). So that's 6 000 to 9 000 ships.

9 000 ships is more likely, since modern fleets usually have 1/3rd of ships active at any time. But then, if "elements" were not all that was avaliable, 18 000 to 30 000 number is possible.

As for fleet "being in action soon"... we know that there are ship graveyards, and we don't know much about UFP's wartime production capabilities... we also know that manpower was main issue for Starfleet, not lack of hardware.

Also, in BobW, 39 ships will take "less than a year" to replace. That means that Starfleet has between 3 and 6 thousand ships; maybe more, since "less than a year" is certainly more than a month. 2 months, with avg. 80-year lifespan, and you get absolute upper limit of 18 000 capital ships.

[Mike DiCenso]

The 1,500 ship number likely comes from DS9's "When It Rains..." where Martok notes that that number of Klingon ships can be readied in a day with the anti-Breen energy-draining weapon modifications.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

600-ship fleet was comprised from elements of two fleets. One element was 300 ships; meaning that one full fleet is 600 to 900 ships, most likely. As for 1500-ship-number, I don't remember Federation ever fielding such a fleet, so I'd like you to name the episode (I don't doubt it's DS9). And there were probably about 10 fleets in service (Tenth fleet is highest number we know of in service, and since it is implied that fleets were formed for Dominion War, there is no reason to assume gaps). So that's 6 000 to 9 000 ships.

several hundred by that point in the war after taking ungodly losses and they were not yet rebuilt

9 000 ships is more likely, since modern fleets usually have 1/3rd of ships active at any time. But then, if "elements" were not all that was avaliable, 18 000 to 30 000 number is possible.

those nine thousand ships would have to be capable of slugging it out with three to five times their number then..because even the klingons after taking ungodly losses could still field high numbers and Gowron was open about the industrial advantage of the federation

[

As for fleet "being in action soon"... we know that there are ship graveyards, and we don't know much about UFP's wartime production capabilities... we also know that manpower was main issue for Starfleet, not lack of hardware.

they went from having very few galaxies to having at least several per fleet I'd call that a decent ramp up in numbers

Also, in BobW, 39 ships will take "less than a year" to replace. That means that Starfleet has between 3 and 6 thousand ships; maybe more, since "less than a year" is certainly more than a month. 2 months, with avg. 80-year lifespan, and you get absolute upper limit of 18 000 capital ships.

this was before DS9 when the federation was severely stagnant and well really neutered Cardassians went from being a threat to something a major power could bowl over in a matter of months..

[Mike DiCenso]

Gowron was open about the industrial advantage of the federation

Where did Gowron ever say that about the Federation?
-Mike