I challenge darkstar to a debate

[Praeothmin]

SWST, your post made me laugh...

You are a good humorist, you really are...
Pretending that the TESB self-exploding asteroid scenes haven't been debunked in many threads here, where you continually ignored the rebuttals, ignoring the AotC asteroid destructions scenes where Jango's guns are nowhere near ICS levels, ignoring TCW which shows us extremelly sub-ICS and Warsie Wanker yields...
All of this provided to you so many times in so many threads here...

And yet you pretend to have never seen any of these, and ask that I should once again provide evidence which you will simply ignore...
No, my friend, you are the TRUE politician here... :)

You grab one phrase, the "Atmosphere was drifting away" as proof, yet ignore the other sentences in the same paragraph, the "evenly cratered surface", the "mop-up operation" of the Tie Fighters, ignore the fact that in the same book the Empire had to send troops on the surface of Dankayo to verify if any had survived...

Yeah, you're a funny guy... :)

[Mike DiCenso]

I don't buy SWST's airburst theory here as it would take very high-altitude blasts to mitigate the damage from a massive petaton-level barrage from three ISDs. Yet the implication in the flavor text is that the surface, in particular the Rebel base, is being directly hit by the turbolasers. Even still, all a petaton attack would still have left Dankayo with a molten surface at the very least. But there is no mention of even that, just even cratering and some topsoil being blown around. So the atmosphere drifting away would be from the base itself, not the planet. In fact, based on the wording of the text, we don't have any idea if the entire planet's surface is cratered in the attack, just the area around the base.

Even more so damning is that if petaon airbursts were what were needed to kill planets, then when the Devestator and Tanative trade shots at low orbital altitude in ANH above Tatooine, it should have wrecked havoc with the planet's surface. Luke, who was watching the battle through his macrobinoculars would have been instantly blinded by the blasts, and then killed. Literally cooked alive by the intense radiation hitting him an instant later along with most of the inhabitants on that side of the planet facing the battle. But that doesn't happen. Even assuming the ships have their weapons dialed a good ways down suggests that sub-gigaton damage to a modest sized capital ship's shields is all that is needed to disable them.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Agent ZNT-8 could see one of the base's buildings from a distance, through macrobinoculars, after having reached the surface. Who thinks that it would be possible to see anything on the surface of a planet recently shot with copious amounts of power?

As for the atmosphere drifting, it needs to be said, again, that pushing the natural atmosphere away will require so much energy that what will have taken its place will be worse. You cannot remove an atmosphere by shooting at the surface of a planet and hope to get some clean ball after that.
You're left with such a storm of fire, dust and particles that there's just nothing more you can do.
The idea of sending the nimble TIES and people into that is quite absurd.

Besides, it is clearly written that stormtroopers, not lavatroopers, were sifting through the rubble of the defensive installations.

As I said, all has already been stated since the day I posted all the relevant material from the RPG supplement here.
All people need to do is read it. There's absolutely nothing new I've seen written about Dankayo since the day I posted that stuff and some people commented on it soon after.

The amount of nonsense, trolling and obvious lies from SWST just has to stop there.
There's no debate to be had.
SWST, just drop the ball and we're done. Give up, you're just being a fool.
There's nothing you can do to even more blatantly ignore facts and refuse the indisputable conclusion that Dankayo was never subjected to stupid amounts of firepower.

[Picard]

As I said, I can easily believe they can control their weapons to percentage points, but again, if a TNG-era ship Phaser is capable of GT firepower, then even 1% of that would be 10 MT...

I doubt that they can control power output to only 1%. There is also episode where 60 GW variance from shipboard phasers is considered hard to achieve. And given from what we know about photon torpedoes, three-digit megaton output is minimum for shipboard phasers for them to remain feasible weapon.

And yet, these shots do mostly surface damage...
From MT level weaponry...

On tritanium hull, helped by SIF. Besides...

http://picard578.6te.net/startrek-vs-st ... asers.html

http://picard578.6te.net/startrek-vs-st ... edoes.html

http://picard578.6te.net/startrek-vs-st ... rials.html

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... _large.png (forgot to include it on site)

And then, a hand Phaser is supposed to do create damage sufficiently credible to pass off as ship fire?

If it's Voyager or Enterprise, you can probably forget it. Not in line with TNG - not canon.

EU evidence need not be confirmed by the movies, they just need not be contradicted.

EU's not canon; so yes, it must be confirmed by movies, beacouse movies (and their novelizations) only matter.

[Praeothmin]

If it's Voyager or Enterprise, you can probably forget it. Not in line with TNG - not canon.

First, VOY and ENT are canon...
Second, the incident to which I'm reffering was in TNG... :)

[Picard]

1) That is why I said "not in line with TNG...".

2) Then we have to find alternative solution. But as far as I remember it was a shuttle (I think I know what incident you're talking about), and it has duranium, not tritanium, hull, and SIF was probably off. So that might explain it.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I doubt that they can control power output to only 1%. There is also episode where 60 GW variance from shipboard phasers is considered hard to achieve. And given from what we know about photon torpedoes, three-digit megaton output is minimum for shipboard phasers for them to remain feasible weapon.

In galaxy child they reduce phaser power to "minimum" to try and scare off the mommy space lifeform but it still kills her (insert Picard running off to his ready room for a cry).

When they realize she was about to pop out a baby and its still alive inside her they use the phasers to give her corpse a c-section, the phasers are set to "3% with a narrow beam" and it slices her open easily.

"Minimum phasers" can therefore be considered quite a bit less than 3%, oh and the creature was very large (E-D sized) and silicon based so any whines in a debate about silicon lifeforms being immune to phasers because of the Horta in TOS gets kicked in the balls by this example where minimum phasers kills a HUGE lifeform and easily slice it open set at 3%...:).

[Mike DiCenso]

The Horta example is often trotted out. But the problem with it is that the episode itself is self-contradictory. On one hand, hand phasers don't do much to the Horta beyond knocking off a chunk of the creature, and putting her in grave danger of dying from the wound. But in the same episode, Kirk and Spock rather causally discuss using phasers to cut tunnels, a feat which is actually shown later in TNG's "Chain of Command".

The only thing I can think of to reconcile this is that the Horta species is exceptional dense in structure and they may have a form of very high-temperature resistant silica-based compounds since we know from episodes like "That Which Survives" and "Vengeance Factor", that phasers do heat metal and rock up to thousands of degrees Centigrade. This makes sense since the Horta dwells in deep, dense rock, and needs to be able to survive in an environment that is very high pressure and temperature deep in Janus IV's planetary crust.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

I like the fact that according to DS9 episode 12 industrial replicators could take the Cardassian Union from from a post invasion wasteland who was suffering epidemics and starvation and plagues across their entire multi dozen world empire post the Klingon onslaught back to normal..or at least allow them to build the plants and facilities required to restart their entire civilization and the Federation was willing to give this way with out really worrying about any sort of strain on their own economy as if such things were..the equivalent of a rich guy buying his teen aged son a car

really SWST has never been able to give me a proper answer for the GE countering industrial power of that magnitude that handing away something that can basically resurrect a minor local power easily in fact no die hard wongite has ever given me a proper answer to that

[Mike DiCenso]

Star Trek isn't the end all and be all of sci-fi industrial might, but few Versus debaters, especially Warsies, have been willing to concede the fact that there is some very impressive ability there. The Federation, as well as the other military powers involved in the Dominion war built and replaced many thousands of starships that ranged in size from runabouts to multiple kilometer behemoths. The Federation built at least dozens, perhaps hundreds, or even thousands of the Spacedock and Starbase 74-type stations in it's 300 year history, and likely most of those were built all relatively recently within a few years, if the construction of the Spacedock seen in the Alternate timeline of Star Trek 2009 is any indication.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

Star Trek isn't the end all and be all of sci-fi industrial might,

oh of course not when you guys like the Zentreadi who can field billions of vessels and maintain that rate in a two hundred thousand year long civil war despite not knowing how to replace lost factories completely blows anything from Star Trek out of the water by a dramatic degree..or the Abh who build dysonspheres or the Replicators from SG1 who seem to be able to convert entire planets into blocks

but it's certainly better then most mid tier sci fi universes Wars included at least based on canon feats (I'd classify them as mid tier any ways wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on that)

but few Versus debaters, especially Warsies, have been willing to concede the fact that there is some very impressive ability there. The Federation, as well as the other military powers involved in the Dominion war built and replaced many thousands of starships that ranged in size from runabouts to multiple kilometer behemoths. The Federation built at least dozens, perhaps hundreds, or even thousands of the Spacedock and Starbase 74-type stations in it's 300 year history, and likely most of those were built all relatively recently within a few years, if the construction of the Spacedock seen in the Alternate timeline of Star Trek 2009 is any indication.
-Mike

I've met and debated with a good deal of Warsies who could concede this issue even ones who still believe in Wars supremacy I'm not saying no I'm just saying when it comes to the fanatics or rather our resident 'wars expert' who do claim that the GE and Republic possess superior industry have never really mustered a good counter argument

[sonofccn]

I've met and debated with a good deal of Warsies who could concede this issue even ones who still believe in Wars supremacy I'm not saying no I'm just saying when it comes to the fanatics or rather our resident 'wars expert' who do claim that the GE and Republic possess superior industry have never really mustered a good counter argument

Well if none of them will step up I'll take a stab at it. :)

Going off memory, and correct me if I'm wrong, Trek was vague on what the industrial replicators were, I always see them as starship sized factory things that spit out whatever you need, and what exactly they were doing for the ravaged economies. We know for instance that a small handful were enough to help prop back up Bajor, at least I'm pretty sure they talked about giving Bajor some, and war ravaged Cardassia( questions were the twelve just for Cardassia Prime or the entire Union?) but I don't recall any specifics on how they were going to do it or length it would take. It is impressive but loose example of industrial prowess.

For the Empire/Old Republic/New Republic we know they had the industry to field over twenty thousand warships with lenghts ranging from 900 meters to 1600 likely on average as well as larger specimens in addition to smaller but argubly more numerous assault ships. We know that the Mon Calamari shipyard more or less on their own could spam enough 1200 meter warships plus support that the Empire with its tens of thousands of warships couldn't scrounge up enough of a task force from its dispersed frontier to overpower the aformentioned shipyard even through they were a crucial link in the Rebel's arsenal. The Trade Federation, a powerful subfaction of the Old Republic to be sure but not overpowering, built enough of a 3 KM across frieghter to use them to blockaid a planet. As well we have the two Death Stars which no matter how you slice it means that given enough start up time the Empire/Old Republic/New republic can slap togather a lot of durasteel in a comparativly short time.

So in conclusion while I would agree replicators are a quantum leap forward in industry I think the scale of the million world Empire pushes it out into the lead just not nearly as much as some proponets claim.

[Admiral Breetai]

Well if none of them will step up I'll take a stab at it. :)

somehow I think your too nice to fully wong out on me lol

Going off memory, and correct me if I'm wrong, Trek was vague on what the industrial replicators were, I always see them as starship sized factory things that spit out whatever you need, and what exactly they were doing for the ravaged economies. We know for instance that a small handful were enough to help prop back up Bajor, at least I'm pretty sure they talked about giving Bajor some, and war ravaged Cardassia( questions were the twelve just for Cardassia Prime or the entire Union?) but I don't recall any specifics on how they were going to do it or length it would take. It is impressive but loose example of industrial prowess.

they were going to give them to the entire Union apparently and said it was enough to help them begin building power plants and such things..to basically help them start up their own medical/economy base they mentioned being able to build power plants and the like

the Maquis proceed to steal them and become a major threat to the Cardies thanks to their mess with the Klingons

For the Empire/Old Republic/New Republic we know they had the industry to field over twenty thousand warships with lenghts ranging from 900 meters to 1600 likely on average as well as larger specimens in addition to smaller but argubly more numerous assault ships. We know that the Mon Calamari shipyard more or less on their own could spam enough 1200 meter warships plus support that the Empire with its tens of thousands of warships couldn't scrounge up enough of a task force from its dispersed frontier to overpower the aformentioned shipyard even through they were a crucial link in the Rebel's arsenal.

I doubt the rebel fleet numbered in the thousands even with Mon Calamari aid I really doubt it based on the highest canon I can buy dozens maybe a few hundred and it seemed the bulk of their fleet was much smaller craft. The biggest issue the empire seemed to have was it's size it could respond to the threat but risk exposing their rear to rebellion on the other side of the empire.

The Trade Federation, a powerful subfaction of the Old Republic to be sure but not overpowering, built enough of a 3 KM across frieghter to use them to blockaid a planet. As well we have the two Death Stars which no matter how you slice it means that given enough start up time the Empire/Old Republic/New republic can slap togather a lot of durasteel in a comparativly short time.

The republic didn't really have a proper navy at that point which had to help and didn't the clone wars basically bankrupt them?

So in conclusion while I would agree replicators are a quantum leap forward in industry I think the scale of the million world Empire pushes it out into the lead just not nearly as much as some proponets claim.

while I do believe the wars side has an edge in the initial stages of any war I'm fairly certain a long term war would be disastrous unless they can some how buy or steel replitech (I think I just invented that)

[mojo]

i've always wondered about those big replicators. why don't they just build one big enough to spit out ships? as i understand it, aren't transporters just higher quality replicators? surely if they can make one which can spit out something as complex as a human being, they can make one that would spit out starships, given the mass. why not just build a really, really big replicator, stick some engines on it, and fly it around to dead planets, using their mass to make ships?
for god's sake, replicator tech makes all the 'star wars haz beter induztriAL capabities' arguments ridiculous as hell right off.
and i've said this before, but if star wars ships are really that awesome, why not just capture an x-wing, then spit out a fleet of x-wings all piloted by a legion of datas from a transporter? game over. i doubt even a jedi could match a soong android's reflexes as a pilot. and even if a jedi WAS a better fighter pilot, there are a limited amount of jedi pilots. no such luck on x-wings and datas. if the jedi are better pilots, just throw a thousand data piloted x-wings at them.
i can already hear swst whining that there's no reason to believe star wars computers would be compatible with star trek computers and all that bull, but it's pointless. an x-wing is a pretty simple thing to pilot, it seems to me from the movies and books and whatnot. data wouldn't have too much trouble piloting something which looks to be about as complicated as a modern day fighter plane. luke blew up the death star about ten minutes after getting into one for the first time in his life.
ground troops seem to kind of suck in st? fuck that, how about a landing party of 100,000 datas, modified for battle and ordered to capture or flat out kill every stormtrooper they come across? and remember how easy the jedi went down when they were slaughtered like lambs by palpatine's stupid order? why not reverse engineer whatever that thing was that qui-gon used to detech anakin's midichlorians, upgrade your datas with them, and send them out in search of anyone with force capability for capture or destruction? do we really think stormtroopers are more dangerous to the jedi than a soong android? because those troopers didn't seem to have much trouble wiping the jedi right out of existence.
star wars weapons specs are insanely high if the ics is accurate? capture ONE ship with a battery of those insane turbolasers, spit a thousand of them out of a replicator, bolt them all onto a trek starship and then replicate it.
star wars ftl faster than star trek warp engines? uh, once again, just capture ONE top of the line star wars hyperdrive, and bolt it onto that trek ship with all the turbolasers.
swst: but mojo, you fucking moron, how will they know how the hyperdrive and turbolasers work?
well, swst, first off, i don't think it would be all that difficult to figure out, but if we just can't spare five minutes.. hey, i don't know, maybe a vulcan mind-meld with the pilot of the ship you took the hyperdrive off of?
tch.

[Admiral Breetai]

replicator flaws Mojo

certain materials cannot be replicated due to the complexity of their atomic structure or something..hence why currency isn't entirely obliterated Latinum can't be neither can Dilithium those can be regenerated and refreshed to an extent but not replicated

protomatter seemed impossible to replicate until DS9 and anti matter seemed to be very difficult to replicate which is why Photon torps couldn't be ship based produced until Ds9 era again

as for building ships from scratch a primitive version of the replicators the modern feds used was seen powered by coma people in ENT it was literally pulling hull sections out of thin air and slapping them on the little E

Replicators do seem entirely capable of just 'materializing" entire sections of ships..i mean a few crew men..on Voyager built the delta flyer with out any assembly line or anything and on a sparse "budget" no less

energy requirements and certain raw materials being too complex or costly seem to be the only in universe limitations to replicators

that does not mean major powers can't churn out obscene numbers,..The Dominion is an extremely broken example having only three shipyards for most of the war then two..and still being able to out produce the klingons and feds combined

the UFP itself can lazily take a decade to build a single GCS then start rolling them out by the dozens during the war

it seems possible to do what your suggesting but basically they are capped by complexity and energy requirements