The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

[StarWarsStarTrek]

You said every federation AND dominion planet. I don't have to prove shit on you, you made a baseless claim that can not be proven. We do not know how many planets EITHER side has, especially for the dominion, who control almost a full quadrant of a galaxy.

That’s bullcrap. We have varying figures for the size of the Federation ranging from a hundred planets to one thousand. None, I repeat no source in Star Trek canon gives the Federation twenty five thousand planets. It’s true that the size of the Dominion is unknown, but nothing implicates that they’re several dozen times larger than the Federation.

And at the risk of going off topic, my focus is on Empire/Republic vs Federation. The UFP is more known, and thus easier to argue.

"YES the tactic that we never saw used EVER is totally viable because they never had a situation where they needed to use it!" Save for that entire WAR WHERE THEY USE NAPOLEONIC TACTICS AND COULD HAVE JUST NUKED THE ENEMY TO DEATH APPARENTLY. You know, the one where FIVE MILLION SOLDIERS would bankrupt the republic.

Actually, Vader’s first reaction to finding the Rebel base on Hoth was to bombard it from outside the star system. Destroying the shield generator was actually a primary focus to the entire battle. And ever heard of Base Delta Zero? Your proposition that everyone in Star Wars is too stupid to understand orbital bombardment fails. The Empire did it dozens of times to various different worlds; in fact, their first response to a planetary rebellion is to bomb the fuck out of it.

You know what, no, I'll let you have this one. I'll let you. I concede permanently and henceforth to you that any tactics that either side shows a potentiality for will be used, and I'll even throw in that it has to be a demonstrable and verifiable tactic to avoid tech of the weeks still!

Oh yeah, the federation beats you down with their ablative armor

On their ships. Too bad their planets don’t have ablative armor.

transphasic torpedo

Which are no more capable of intercepting relativistic weapons than standard torpedos.

time traveling powers...

Cosmic police. You fail.

why? Well because they were never given an opportunity to really demonstrate their capability... they were never in a situation where they could really show off those tactics, what with one being an end episode and being a technology that would take months to refit their ships with... and the other one being a heavily regulated item that its abuse could have potentailly started a cold war.

Actually, it would take the Federation at least months to go through the politics, testing and construction necessary to standardize their fancy gadgets. The tactic for Star Wars requires no new technology.

Federation time travel = win... And don't worry, I'll let you have the empire totally WTFPWN with WANKATONS of power before hand... because federation time travel is a demonstrable science capable of being used on a run down, beat up, piece of junk, non science based, klingon bird of pray, and was used TWICE. A federation runabout should be able to effortlessly repeat the effects.

There are clearly limits to time travel we haven’t seen yet. The range of it is in dispute (they’d have to go back a long time to strike Star Wars before they had nuclear weapons and hyperdrive, all that’s needed to pull off the trick, aka back to pre space age history, a time in Star Wars that nobody knows about) and its limits, hence the “no time!” scream from Voyager.

It’s up to you to substantiate your wonder weapon, just like you requested of me.

Dang, I have never been so happy to concede a point before.

Fine then. A team of Jedi use flow-walking to go and eavesdrop on the construction of the Krenim Time Weapon or any other time device, and record it for reverse engineering and construction. The loooonnnnggg way back (and of unknown time) that the UFP has to go back doesn’t work the other way.

*sigh* I was pointing out the absurdity of you not providing ANY information and jsut saying, "my side wins because "I" came up with a strategy herp derp." You took nothing into account and didn't justify anything. Now you use a trek civilization who had fully infiltrated the federation and use them as use for 'that's who they would know it was there, because the dominion knew they will know."

Do you even know how you sound right now?

On the plus side, thanks for the citation, that's a first.

So you desire information as to the terms and conditions of the war? Sounds like an evasion to me, but fine. The two galaxies are brought together with just 10,000 light years of space separating them, and go to war for some reason. Empire and Rebels unite on one side, and the entire Alpha Quadrant on another. Completely fair and even, right? What exactly is your point?

If it takes the empire a decade they starve to death in your situation.

What, the Empire doesn’t have food? Or preservation methods? Or synthesizers (which they have been established to possess)?

We know from several sources that going off hyperspace routes is a bad idea if you're not a jedi,

Then get a Jedi, or a Force user. Again, what’s your point?

and we know that circumventing hyperspace routes is difficult.

Difficult, yeah. Again, is this supposed to counter my point, or are you simply throwing your arms in the air and yelling “BUT IT’LL TAKE TIME AND BE HARD!”?

Furthermore mapping them AND maintaining them is a laborious, dangerous affair.

Of course war is dangerous. What’s your point? You haven’t done jack to prove that the plan won’t work, which is what’s important.

Your entire debate hinges on them successfully doing this, undetected, and rapidly blitzing every planet of two of the major powers of the milky-way galaxy. It's ABSURD.

The Federation is going to find out about this how? They can’t detect ships in hyperspace; they don’t know it exists, and they can’t do much to stop it unless if they invent planetary shields overnight.

No, I'm going with what waas established by canon. You know, since there are apparently secret hidden hyperspace routes even right on top of their capital planet. Hell, TCW has an entire episode about a 'lost' 'ancient' hyperspace route. Heck, you don't even take into account how the empire gets into the star trek galaxy, which, for the record, is not an easy task with the entire galactic barrier...

So you’re arguing that, because a few hyperspace routes out of potentially millions were unknown to the Republic, one can conclude that the Federation will have a more intricate knowledge of the dimension than the civilization that’s been using it for milenia?


Quote:


You forget about all the hyperpoints that are mined, blockaded, raided, and so on...[/quote]

By people in Star Wars, yes. Too bad the UTF knows jack all about hyperspace and jack all about how to blockade it.

You forget that in order to use certain hyperspace routes you actually have to get permission from their owners.

Yeah, but how the fuck does this apply to the Federation? What owners? Are there some mysterious hyperspace-travelers in the Milky Way galaxy that secretly laid claim to various hyperspace routes inside Federation territory? Is this the basis for the next Star Trek movie?

You just ignore the fact that an entire WAR was fought and decided based on control of hyperspace routes on numerous occasions,

Because many hyperspace routes went through the territories of various factions that either had the means to enforce their ownership of various routes and/or would be economically/politically disadvantageous to piss off.

to the point where jedi masters where sacrificed and 'grand battles the scales of which hadn't been seen since the day of the old republic' had to occur.

Source of quote, please.

Hyperspace is no where near as impervious as you suggest.

From realspace, it is. Even Starkiller could not sense people traveling in hyperspace.

Yes, the federation who have mastered gravity and can PUSH MOONS won't be able to do what an interdictor does. Sure.

There’s more to it than using gravity to PUSH GIANT OBJECT HARRR. Prove that they can effectively control and “blockade” a hyperspace route that likely to be an astronomical unit in radius, at the very least.

It's a hilarious double standard when you think that the Empire can aquire knowledge on the location of all of the federation and dominion planets,

Again, your argument is a pointless stalling tactic. It’s only a matter of time before they do. There is no time limit.

and suddenly map all the hyperspace routes needed to blitz all of their worlds at once,

They don’t need hyperspace routes. They’re on no time constraints. And if for some contrived reason they absolutely needed to map hyperspace routes, they have all the time they need. It’s not as though the UFP has the logistics and numbers for a counter-invasion.

with tactics that they never use,

But that a random guy with a computer was able to think of out of boredom. Yeah, they need not have a Napoleon.

resources that they've never been shown to build in quantity,

Oh no, even though they have fusion reactors almost literally everywhere, they can’t build thermonuclear warheads.

and with prior galactic knowledge that they magically obtained...

No, they would presumably obtain them the same way any civilization would “obtain” information on their enemies.

only to turn around and claim that the federation will be unable to make any form of effective defense even though there are dozens of possibilities for it.

All of your possibilities are ridiculous. Mining hyperspace routes with ST mines? Even if they could affect ships moving in hyperspace, the ships in hyperspace move faster than energy propogates. They’d literally outrun the mines.

Quote:

So you still provide almost zero evidence (save for the one citation, thanks, I appreciate it, really). You're dismissed, I don't have time for you when there are far better debaters at space battles who actually choose to challenge and debate correctly... I don't' think you've quite followed my posts over there but I tend to AGREE with pro-wars posters on various topics because they will actually debate to some degree in a reasonable and correct fashion. You're an exercise, a distraction, nothing more. I'm trying to get you to recognize the ERRORS of your posts and why they are terrible, but like so many before you you're stuck in a well of fanboyism of your side must win and any arguments to the contrary, no matter how they are presented, are wrong.

[/quote]

Zero evidence for what? That they possess thermonuclear warheads? That they can map hyperspace routes, and don’t even need them? That they can locate planets? How else did the plot out every star and every planet in their own galaxy by AotC? How else did Obi Wan track down and travel to Kamino, located outside any traversed hyperspace routes?

I'm trying to show you flaws in your debate style and you're basically being willfully oblivious to it...

Because you’re failing miserably at it.

Now I know you have never seen star trek. *sigh* I also know that you're absolutely talking out your ass now. This tactic isn't viable at all and you're just going to keep on going I bet.

I digress: They demonstrate a capability to intercept and engage at targets moving at FTL speeds in every single star trek series. ALL OF THEM. We have FTL missiles shown in Voyager and defeated, we have columbia intercepting enterprise and merging their warpfields. We have Romulan plasma torpedoes chasing down FTL targets in TOS.

And you know as well as I that FTL combat is completely different than realspace combat. Actually, you don’t, and you’ll probably contest that if they can intercept FTL targets, they can intercept fast moving realspace targets.

If that’s the case, then explain why they visibly FAIL to intercept realspace targets moving at completely sub-relativistic speeds. Explain why fighters doing strafing runs at a few hundred meters per second don’t get shot “down” in a microsecond, or why two opposing battle lines literally charging through each other still register some misses.

Every time a ship fires on another ship while moving at warp they are engaging an object moving at FTL velocities. Hell, you can even transport to and from vessels moving at warp, to use one of my favorite quotes, "for a moment I thought we were in that wall," "for a moment.. you were."

The ability to engage a FTL target is trivial for star trek, who have dedicated FTL sensors.

Even if you were right (which you aren’t; see above), they could simply equip the warheads with hyperdrives and program them to engage in microjumps to right outside the planet, then detonate. Hyperdrive is both far faster and uses a completely different and untraceable medium compared to warp drive.

Irrelevant, the cardassins are a demonstrated faction to be woefully inferior to the federation counterparts. Without the dominion they were a joke to all fighting forces of the quadrant. This shows nothing of federation capability, which had the ability to pick off fighters with rapid precision as shown in the episode TNG: Conumdrum.

If by “inferior” you mean “with targeting systems inferior by literally 10 orders of magnitude”, maybe. If that were the case, they’d be less than useless as their weapons are all shot down in a microsecond by the super-relativistic-tracking-computers (presumably, since no human or humanoid could track relativistic targets) that presumably still need human guidance to use transporters on human targets at terminal velocity (read: far less than the speed of sound).

*face palm* Yes, because it's not like enterprise uses missiles which were trivially shot down by another race just to show them how screwed they were. It's not like the phoenix could shoot weapons that were engaging at 40,000km ranges in a matter of seconds, it's not like you're just talking out your ass agai- oh wait... never mind on that last part.

Why don’t you go ahead and show me a feat implicating that the Federation can intercept several thousand missiles mid-flight?

And if you can prove this for supersonic missiles, why don’t you do so for several thousand relativistic missiles spread out over hundreds of millions of kilometers of space.

No, not FTL targets in warp. Relativistic targets, whose computers can be programmed to accelerate at randomizing rates.

By your own admission that any tactics would be used if they could demonstrably use them... it takes a single federation ship to travel back in time to render your arguments moot. Hell, do you even realize that there are races that the federation defeated that would be completely and utterly IMMUNE to the empire by sheer virtue of the empire existing in normal real space and being made of MATTER?

Complete red herring, unless if there happens to be a Federation starship in space that just happens to have time traveling technology and just happens to know where and when to strike. The latter is impossible, because not even Star Wars knows the origins of Star Wars. The pre-space flight history of Star Wars is lost and unknown.

*bang head on desk* Yes, I never provided proof to statements you hadn't made yet, WOE IS ME. You haven't provided proof, statement, or reply to dozens of posts and accusations! You literally made statements in this very post that didn't exist before in your 'scenario' and then expected me to have preemptively provided evidence!? And you say "I" don't understand burden of proof.


You sir... are a loon.

You’re right, you don’t. Only now have you actually attempted to prove that Federation ships can track relativistic targets. Your original rebuttal was to vaguely boast that I can’t comprehend the awe-inspiring power of Star Trek.

But I digress: You have clear fanboyism to a rabid extent. I don't think you comprehend how often I disagree with people like Dark Star, and how often I agree with people over at space battles in regards to star wars. I don't think you can wrap your mind around the fact that if you told me, "you drop the empire on the federation, who wins" I will say "Empire" ever bloody time. I don't think you get that people like me aren't in this to have our side win. Were in it to have interesting debate and maybe uncover an interesting truth at some point.

Feel free to direct me to a single instance in this forum in which you’ve supported Star Wars as the victor in a thread. No really, I’m interested.

Do I think the enterprise could beat down a star destroyer? Yes. Any day of the week.

So much for being pro-Wars, eh?

"Have you ever seen what a Star Destroyer can do to the surface of an unshielded planet? Stones run like water and sand turns to glass."

Do I think the ICS is crap? Yes, I do. [/i]

What, even its pretty pictures and intricate diagrams? Or are you, ironically enough, devoted enough to the debate that all you care about are the numbers?

Hey, another question. Do you think Karen Traviss’s books are crap? By your figuring, shouldn’t they be crap, since she not only got the measurement for stress wrong, she also claimed that durasteel was about as durable as rubber?

Do I think that STAR TREK as a whole can defeat STAR WARS as a whole, even throwing the uber powers out? Yes, without question in any reasonable setting.

Of course, Q.

The empire LOST to the rebellion, they lost to an inferior opponent.

And the British Empire lost to the Americans. I guess that means that Gondor could whoop their asses.

Bringing the federation in merely gives the empire ANOTHER concern,

And that doesn’t work both ways at all. Nope, the Federation has no concerns at all.

and it's one that taking the whole of star wars/star trek that could do considerable harm given the chance, and one that could put logistical strain on the empire.

And it obviously doesn’t work both ways. It’s not as though the Empire is thousands of times larger than the Federation…

But really... you know.. I don't think it will matter if I continue this line of thought and explanation to you, I don't.. So I'm gonna stop right now. I'll refute your points and expect counter evidence and counter examples as required.. but really, until you've addressed any thing correctly and reasonable I'm just gonna do this.

"Time Travel wins by your own examples of evidence and tactics."

There are better people to debate, I hope one day you will become one of them.

[/quote]

You know, one of your points that I find most erroneous is the idea that my tactic can’t be used because it’s never been done before. Despite the fact that Star Wars has the technology and logistics to pull of a very simplistic and easy to figure out plan, you just claim that they can’t do it. Why?

[Praeothmin]

Hey, here's a foolproof method of any Star Wars galactic civilization trumping an Alpha Quadrant civilization!

Get a bunch of ships (25,000 ISD's + likely millions of smaller vessels, as evidenced by every sector having a fleet)

Which is likely the entire SW Galaxy fleet, which means that the Rebels then have free reign to take over the SW Galaxy…
Plus, imagine the logistic nightmare of moving this entire fleet…

Arm them with fusion warheads so that you don't have to argue turbolaser yield.

Right, because their warheads will be so much more powerful than their Turbolasers, which is why they always use them in battle… Oh wait…

Hyperspace and jump out a few ships a few hundred million kilometers away from every Federation/Dominion/etc planet.

Which they have obtained maps how?
Planned their Hyperspace routes how?

[qutoe]Launch several thousand nuclear missiles at the planet, or just crippling parts of it, whichever one fits the mission.

Watch the nuclear holocausts begin.[/quote]

If they succeed in sending all 25000 SDs plus other support ships (basically all their ships in the Galaxy), and if the Federation ignores those ships, and don’t fire upon them as soon as they see them...

Potential objections:

Where do they get enough ships? - The ISD's alone outnumber the amount of, say, Federation planets. One alone is big enough to store several thousand nukes.

So?
The Federation have between 10 000 and 20 000 ships by DS9 estimates, so they will have many ships ready to defend the planets…

Where do they get enough nukes? - even most Trekkies concede that fusion technology is very, very, very common in Star Wars, so much that random citizens can afford fusion powered starships.

I see no problem here, the Empire should have many, many of those missiles or warheads…

How do they find the ST planets? - just get it by bribing a random ST traveler. It's not as if, say, the Federation keeps planet locations secret; Archer sent the coordinates to Earth to a random alien race they just contacted.

Ok, so they get the location of the most defended planet in the Federation, and a bunch of others…
How do they get the location of every single Federation planet?

How do they plot the hyperspace routes? - they don't need hyperspace routes, and even if they did it's really just a matter of time.

Yes, as TCW showed us so many times, they do…
The Milky Way Galaxy will be a total unknown to them, so they will need them…
As for time, how fast do you think they are?
You have yet to prove how powerful their sensors are, how quick they can map space, etc…

Why can't the Federation strike back? - because warp drive is slow, there are too many SW planets (planets outnumber ships in this case) and too many are shielded.

Warp isn’t that slow, plus the Federation can actually go full speed ahead while mapping…
I agree there are too many planets, but there aren’t that many important ones…
And not that many shielded planets…
But once the Empire’s attack is over, the Federation would not, IMO, be able to mount a counter-attack, they would be in very bad shape…

A hundred million kilometers? Wank! - not against a planet in a predictable orbit, no. Especially since cross-star-system firing against stationary targets/predictable targets have happened in NJO.

I believe this figure for missiles, as ST has sent probes at over 150 million km at stars…

What about surviving ST ships and space stations? - >99% of the population would be dead, and the remaining ships and such couldn't do jack.

99% is too high, but if that first attack did succeed, then yes, the Federation would be screwed…

Why can't the planet's defenses intercept the missiles? - they have not shown the accuracy or reaction times to do such a thing, and they can't intercept all of the missiles.

False, as many have shown, Starfleet vessels can and do intercept missiles…


As presented, this scenario would indeed give one hell of a bloody nose to the Federation, I’d even say many broken ribs, but the scenario is implausible, since it requires all the Empire’s ships (logistically cannot be done, as anyone who knows about war could tell you), it requires Hyperspace lanes being already plotted (since SW sensors are not good enough to do it real-time), and assumes the Empire knows about all the Federation strengths and weaknesses, but the Feds don’t know anything about the Empire…
Plus, if it happened?
One ship goes into time Warp, warns the Federation about the impending attack, and the Federation prepares for it by equipping all stations, ships and bases with Transphasic armor and Torpedoes, and sends fast ships with phase-cloaking devices and Genesis devices to a few of the major SW worlds to destroy them…

[sonofccn]

I just want to know how he plans to map out chart and maintain hyperroutes in hostile territory where even the podunk Cardassians' ships could challenge their vaunted ISDs without A) squandering his resources and B) the Federation/anyone else learning everything they ever needed to know about the Empire/hyperspace/hyperdrives from the captured derelicts.

[Trinoya]

After reading your post and then begining to write a lengthy reply I opted out of finishing it. I have the reply down below within the quotes... but having read through it all I came to a basic realization, that realization is below that. Forgive the crudeness of the reply, I did not run it through word, nor did I do a double check or read over. It ceased being worth my time. I only submit it as a record of my effort, nothing more, and as a reminder to me to know when to stop banging my head on a wall.

The true response to the only point that mattered is below the first quote block.

That’s bullcrap. We have varying figures for the size of the Federation ranging from a hundred planets to one thousand. None, I repeat no source in Star Trek canon gives the Federation twenty five thousand planets. It’s true that the size of the Dominion is unknown, but nothing implicates that they’re several dozen times larger than the Federation.

And at the risk of going off topic, my focus is on Empire/Republic vs Federation. The UFP is more known, and thus easier to argue.

I never claimed any cannon sources did do that. What you fail to realize is you made an assumption and are touting it around. I've called you out on it, several times now. We have no cannon estimates for the size of the dominion. We know they've existed for thousands of years, they control a substantive amount of the gamma quadrant, and that they were effortlessly fighting a war against three major powers in the alpha quadrant while cut off from their own forces, a war they would have won easily when they were prepared to send a substantive number of reinforcements through the wormhole.

Actually, Vader’s first reaction to finding the Rebel base on Hoth was to bombard it from outside the star system. Destroying the shield generator was actually a primary focus to the entire battle. And ever heard of Base Delta Zero? Your proposition that everyone in Star Wars is too stupid to understand orbital bombardment fails. The Empire did it dozens of times to various different worlds; in fact, their first response to a planetary rebellion is to bomb the fuck out of it.

I never said they didn't use orbital bombardment, I said that the tactic of using fushion warheads was never used, since you know... my statements were all in response to YOUR tactic, not the tactic of a BDZ.

On their ships. Too bad their planets don’t have ablative armor.

Yeah, good thing planets have shields.

Which are no more capable of intercepting relativistic weapons than standard torpedos.

You're right, because standard torpedoes are just fine at intercepting things already.

Cosmic police. You fail.

Cosmic police do not factor into this at all. The time feddies would actually REMOVE the empire from the equation...

Actually, it would take the Federation at least months to go through the politics, testing and construction necessary to standardize their fancy gadgets. The tactic for Star Wars requires no new technology.

Absolutely no evidence presented that it takes months to go through the politics of testing and so on. Voyager was more than capable of adding these modifications on her own, away from shipyards, in days.

Watch the show.

There are clearly limits to time travel we haven’t seen yet. The range of it is in dispute (they’d have to go back a long time to strike Star Wars before they had nuclear weapons and hyperdrive, all that’s needed to pull off the trick, aka back to pre space age history, a time in Star Wars that nobody knows about) and its limits, hence the “no time!” scream from Voyager.

It’s up to you to substantiate your wonder weapon, just like you requested of me.

Time travel can be used with enough precision to successfully send someone back to the general time frame that they wish to go to, without computer calculations. It was then precise enough to be used to send someone to the near exact moment they left. Voyage Home is all the evidence needed.

Fine then. A team of Jedi use flow-walking to go and eavesdrop on the construction of the Krenim Time Weapon or any other time device, and record it for reverse engineering and construction. The loooonnnnggg way back (and of unknown time) that the UFP has to go back doesn’t work the other way.

Those teams of jedi the emprie just had standing around?

And you said "I" failed... whoa.

So you desire information as to the terms and conditions of the war? Sounds like an evasion to me, but fine. The two galaxies are brought together with just 10,000 light years of space separating them, and go to war for some reason. Empire and Rebels unite on one side, and the entire Alpha Quadrant on another. Completely fair and even, right? What exactly is your point?

That wasn't so hard, and I do honestly mean this, THANK YOU. That is a big step in the right direction for you, and I do hope you will do this more often. Providing context for your debate is absolutely critical to providing meaningful discussion.

On a pure side note: Total stalemate, no side can attack one another now due to the galactic barrier.

What, the Empire doesn’t have food? Or preservation methods? Or synthesizers (which they have been established to possess)?

In your original scenario it was just a fleet arriving and doing its thing. Now that you have provided context I shall concede the supply issue.

Then get a Jedi, or a Force user. Again, what’s your point?

The Empire does not have enough force users, and definitely not enough jedi, sitting around, and the jedi are not part of the rebellion (at least any with substantive training). Yoda would not willingly help the empire at all, nor would obi-wan

Difficult, yeah. Again, is this supposed to counter my point, or are you simply throwing your arms in the air and yelling “BUT IT’LL TAKE TIME AND BE HARD!”?

No, I'm demonstrating the flaws in your 'brilliant' plan.

Of course war is dangerous. What’s your point? You haven’t done jack to prove that the plan won’t work, which is what’s important.

*sigh* You don't even read these posts for the whole value do you?

The Federation is going to find out about this how? They can’t detect ships in hyperspace; they don’t know it exists, and they can’t do much to stop it unless if they invent planetary shields overnight.

Because the federation is far more likely to find out about the race blitzing and blowing up every planet it finds long before they find out about the federation...

So you’re arguing that, because a few hyperspace routes out of potentially millions were unknown to the Republic, one can conclude that the Federation will have a more intricate knowledge of the dimension than the civilization that’s been using it for milenia?

Prove that there were million of hyperspace routes. Also my argument isn't the federation will be able to detect them, my argument is that they will be so difficult to create, maintain, and discover in the first place that the federation could wreak logistical havoc upon the empire after finding any hyper points.

This all was made moot thanks to the galactic barrier though.

By people in Star Wars, yes. Too bad the UTF knows jack all about hyperspace and jack all about how to blockade it.

Yup, they know jack, until they beat the living crap out of a star destroyer, download its data, and then reverse engineer a hyper drive. I think they'd successfully do this far sooner than your entire concept of the empire successfully blitzing any and everything at once... a tactic they couldn't even do in their own universe despite having 'vast numerical advantages' of 'wankatons worth of ships'

Yeah, but how the fuck does this apply to the Federation? What owners? Are there some mysterious hyperspace-travelers in the Milky Way galaxy that secretly laid claim to various hyperspace routes inside Federation territory? Is this the basis for the next Star Trek movie?

*face palm* You're not reading everything as a whole, take a step back and look at everything I'm trying to tell you. I'm showing you the limitation of hyperspace as a viable FTL propulsion method. I'm demonstrating to you that it can be controlled and that they are difficult to create and maintain. The logistical nightmare you are going to have with this type of a war HEAVILY FAVORS THE ALPHA QUADRANT POWERS.

Source of quote, please.

TCW: Season 3, the episode where they rescue Tarkin from prison. A dozen ships or so were involved in the battle, btw... if that.. (I only counted three venators...)

There’s more to it than using gravity to PUSH GIANT OBJECT HARRR. Prove that they can effectively control and “blockade” a hyperspace route that likely to be an astronomical unit in radius, at the very least.

*sigh* All that is required is to generate gravity at a point. The federation can create blackholes in SECONDS. The very shield systems of the federation can make large amount of gravity where needed... They have the power AND the systems are dedicated.

Again, your argument is a pointless stalling tactic. It’s only a matter of time before they do. There is no time limit.

Naturally you can prove that in that time they won't be discovered or destroyed by one of the countless forces in the milky-way galaxy that can destroy them... or more importantly that they would successfully get hyperspace route data from star trek sensors? The very thing you're saying federation ships can't possibly detect...

In the time it will take them to force map a hyperspace route they would have lost untold numbers of ships and supplies, and likely had a few destroyed or captured. Period. This of course is assuming they could pass the galactic barrier.

They don’t need hyperspace routes. They’re on no time constraints. And if for some contrived reason they absolutely needed to map hyperspace routes, they have all the time they need. It’s not as though the UFP has the logistics and numbers for a counter-invasion.

They are not on time constraints because YOU say they aren't? You don't really get this at all...

But that a random guy with a computer was able to think of out of boredom. Yeah, they need not have a Napoleon.

*head desk* YOU are an EXTERIOR OBSERVER AWARE OF BOTH UNIVERSES STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES, WHAT YOU CAN COME UP WITH IS NOT WHAT THEY CAN COME UP WITH. YOU ARE NOT THEM. YOU CAN NOT COMMUNICATE YOUR IDEAS WITH THEM. THEY HAVE NOT DEMONSTRATED THIS LEVEL OF STRATEGIC THINKING IN TWO MAJOR WARS. BY DEFAULT THEY WILL NOT DO IT.

Oh no, even though they have fusion reactors almost literally everywhere, they can’t build thermonuclear warheads.

*sigh* I didn't say they couldn't build fusion reactors, I said they don't use fusion missiles on the scale that you want them to. AND THEY DON'T

No, they would presumably obtain them the same way any civilization would “obtain” information on their enemies.

Yes, but going through and attacking people who magically will just turn over the data is not likely to happen. Star trek is not star wars.. a R2 unit can't just hack the federation data base.

All of your possibilities are ridiculous. Mining hyperspace routes with ST mines? Even if they could affect ships moving in hyperspace, the ships in hyperspace move faster than energy propogates. They’d literally outrun the mines.

Again, that is a demonstration of the weakness of hyperspace, not even the tactic they would use. I personally believe a long range federation explorer will find a star destroyer, beat the crap out of it when it opens fire for no reason, download their data banks, send that information back to SFHQ, and then they will tell the empire to politely go home or else. The empire, having wasted all of its time on a futile endeavor of 'mass fusion missile blitz with a time frame measured in decades!" will go, rightfully so, "THIS WAS A STUPID IDEA."

*sigh* I've thought it over and frankly there is no point in continuing any attempts at reasoning with you in the immediate . The rest of your post is filled with the same errors, various attempts at misdirection, even forgetting what you said in this very thread... *sigh* I'll respond to this last point, and then I'm done... because frankly SWST... until you get better at debating and recognize the errors you're committing all you are doing is wasting everyone elses time. I know you can do better, I shall wait for that day. Till then, the last point because maybe you'll actually listen.

You know, one of your points that I find most erroneous is the idea that my tactic can’t be used because it’s never been done before. Despite the fact that Star Wars has the technology and logistics to pull of a very simplistic and easy to figure out plan, you just claim that they can’t do it. Why?

I claim they won't do it, not that they can't. Perhaps you should really look at the history of the debate and the endless counter claims of, "star busting is not a viable tactic" "no time travel" "cloaking won't be used." "No subterfuge" "no biological or chemical weapons" and so on. The countless times a trek tactic was dismissed because it wasn't used.

The reason they are dismissed is because that is the NATURE of the debate. We are not here to speculate on new and unusual tactics and then claim that our side would suddenly use them... we can only theorize on the demonstrable... A trek tactic OR a wars tactic that is known to be used or commonly taught simply should be counted as not being used.

Your tactic is not viable, cost effective, logistically sound, or demonstrable in universe. It is the shouting of a single poster who believes he has found the 'end all be all' and it would be laughed off the face of most other forums, and with far less civility than we give you here.

You can argue to me industrial might, you can argue to me BDZ. You can shout ICS and EU claims till kingdom come... I would meet these with point and counterpoint, with debate and discussion, revelation and reasoning, but when you make up a tactic that has no basis in canon as being viable I'm gonna call bullshit on it, I would expect nothing else of others if I did the same. Without that frame work we lead into a world of zero concessions, and fanboyism that just shouts, "well I shot you ten times" "well I shot you 10 + infinity!" Nothing productive will get done. Period.

As such we debate within reason, not within our dreams. I could dream that the federation could mass replicate fleets because they have the technology, that they could crew it all with clones, because they have they technology, and that they go off using warp 10 and trilithium torpedo all the stars in the star wars galaxy, because they have the technology...

However; that doesn't make it any more viable and realistic...

That is what you have forgotten, and that is why the time of mine that you are wasting is simply not worth it anymore. Feel free to address my statements in regards to other things with you, I eagerly await to see if you continue to shy away from those comments and posts.

Perhaps one day you'll realize how you've come off here, and perhaps one day you'll recognize the standard debate procedures that you're willingly ignoring.

We shall see. For what it's worth SWST, I don't think you're a bad person and I do sincerely wish you get better at debate. I'll look forward to that and maybe you'll surprise me.

Trin Out.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Which is likely the entire SW Galaxy fleet, which means that the Rebels then have free reign to take over the SW Galaxy…

Uh, what? The 25,000 figure was just for the ISD's in the imperial fleet, not for the various other capital ships, frigates and starfighters.

Plus, imagine the logistic nightmare of moving this entire fleet…

Hardly, as most capital ships are pretty self sufficient. There's quite a bit of room on there for food, water and fuel.

Right, because their warheads will be so much more powerful than their Turbolasers, which is why they always use them in battle… Oh wait…

Nah
And nowhere did I claim that their nuclear warheads were stronger than their turbolasers.

Which they have obtained maps how?

By having a single guy go to Earth and buy one? You seem to think that the Federation keeps the location of its planets a secret. Archer gave the coordinates to Earth away on First Contact with an alien species that they hadn't even gotten the chance to look at.

Planned their Hyperspace routes how?

The same way they did so in their own galaxy?

If they succeed in sending all 25000 SDs plus other support ships (basically all their ships in the Galaxy), and if the Federation ignores those ships, and don’t fire upon them as soon as they see them...

Hence the several-hundred-million-kilometers-away part.

Potential objections:
So?
The Federation have between 10 000 and 20 000 ships by DS9 estimates, so they will have many ships ready to defend the planets…

And said ships would not be able to intercept thousands of relativistic missiles moving at varying velocities at various vectors. They'd need millions of ships per planet to form a reliable defensive sphere around a planet.

I see no problem here, the Empire should have many, many of those missiles or warheads…


Ok, so they get the location of the most defended planet in the Federation, and a bunch of others…
How do they get the location of every single Federation planet?

"most defended" correlates with "most important", and crippling the key Federation planets such as Earth would be what matters. A few minor outposts surviving changes jack.

Yes, as TCW showed us so many times, they do…
The Milky Way Galaxy will be a total unknown to them, so they will need them…
As for time, how fast do you think they are?
You have yet to prove how powerful their sensors are, how quick they can map space, etc…

Wanting them is different from needing them. It's like how a military force doesn't theoretically need railroads and roads to travel. It's obviously crucial in having them if you plan on fighting a conventional war against an opponent of rough parity.

Warp isn’t that slow, plus the Federation can actually go full speed ahead while mapping…
I agree there are too many planets, but there aren’t that many important ones…
And not that many shielded planets…
But once the Empire’s attack is over, the Federation would not, IMO, be able to mount a counter-attack, they would be in very bad shape…

Correct.

I believe this figure for missiles, as ST has sent probes at over 150 million km at stars…

Even better, we have such technology today in real life.

99% is too high, but if that first attack did succeed, then yes, the Federation would be screwed…

99% is just fine. High end estimations for the population of the Federation are in the trillions; the crew size of Starfleet that's not situated on planets is far less than 1%.

False, as many have shown, Starfleet vessels can and do intercept missiles…

Not relativistic ones, and not reliably enough to change the outcome.

As presented, this scenario would indeed give one hell of a bloody nose to the Federation, I’d even say many broken ribs, but the scenario is implausible, since it requires all the Empire’s ships (logistically cannot be done, as anyone who knows about war could tell you),

The presence of hyperdrives throws a kink in conventional logistics, and I'd point out that the entire Imperial fleet is hardly needed, just enough to cover all Federation planets, meaning that you'd need any number of SD's ranging from 150 to 1000. You don't even need to send ISD's; frigates would do the trick.

it requires Hyperspace lanes being already plotted (since SW sensors are not good enough to do it real-time),

Which, again, is merely a matter of time. You're using stalling tactic.

and assumes the Empire knows about all the Federation strengths and weaknesses, but the Feds don’t know anything about the Empire…

Oh, it would hardly take much scouting to realize that the Federation doesn't have planetary shields. On the flipside, the Federation can hardly scout planets that would take them years to reach, and the Empire hardly has any major weaknesses that the Federation can use to stop the plan from working.

Plus, if it happened?
One ship goes into time Warp, warns the Federation about the impending attack, and the Federation prepares for it by equipping all stations, ships and bases with Transphasic armor and Torpedoes, and sends fast ships with phase-cloaking devices and Genesis devices to a few of the major SW worlds to destroy them…

[/quote]

You know you've lost when your counterrebuttal rests on the time travel gimmick. That's a last resort argument, and it doesn't even work that well either. See my other post.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I never claimed any cannon sources did do that. What you fail to realize is you made an assumption and are touting it around. I've called you out on it, several times now. We have no cannon estimates for the size of the dominion. We know they've existed for thousands of years, they control a substantive amount of the gamma quadrant, and that they were effortlessly fighting a war against three major powers in the alpha quadrant while cut off from their own forces, a war they would have won easily when they were prepared to send a substantive number of reinforcements through the wormhole.

The only way in which this is relevant is if the Dominion has millions of planets. No, really.

1. The Empire has 25,000 ISD's, but it is mentioned that every sector in the Empire has a fleet of some sort. Given that there are likely trillions of freighter sized vessels that are civilian owned (100 quadrillion civilians in the galaxy), the Empire would need to have hundreds of millions of frigates and other sorts of support craft; or even billions, across the galaxy.

2 If the Dominion planets outnumbered capital ships 3:1 or so, that simply means that each ship has to make a few trips. Hyperdrives work more than once, you know. And they're faster than Star Trek FTL communications, so warnings won't be heard in time.

I never said they didn't use orbital bombardment, I said that the tactic of using fushion warheads was never used, since you know... my statements were all in response to YOUR tactic, not the tactic of a BDZ.

Clearly you haven't read the EU any more than you've claimed that I haven't seen Star Trek. The Mandalorians did a BDZ on a planet using nuclear weapons. There was even a plan once by an imperial to BDZ a planet using antimatter weapons (note that I'm using the term BDZ liberally).

Yeah, good thing planets have shields.

Shields which are not constantly up, universally possessed nor can withstand "any bombardment". Last time I checked, a single ship's phasers could cut through it.

You're right, because standard torpedoes are just fine at intercepting things already.

WHICH YOU STILL HAVEN'T PROVED

You completely ignored my requests at showing an instance of relativistic real-space objects being reliably intercepted.

Cosmic police do not factor into this at all. The time feddies would actually REMOVE the empire from the equation...

Why?

Absolutely no evidence presented that it takes months to go through the politics of testing and so on. Voyager was more than capable of adding these modifications on her own, away from shipyards, in days.

Watch the show.

Because obviously installing prototypes on a single starship is equivalent to uniformly installing them across starfleet.

Time travel can be used with enough precision to successfully send someone back to the general time frame that they wish to go to, without computer calculations. It was then precise enough to be used to send someone to the near exact moment they left. Voyage Home is all the evidence needed.

Which proves jack shit, because nobody knows when and where Star Wars started, not even the historians of Star Wars.

Those teams of jedi the emprie just had standing around?

And you said "I" failed... whoa.

I wasn't aware that we were only talking about the Empire, or that flow-walking was exclusive to Jedi. Last time I checked, the most prominent user was a sith.

That wasn't so hard, and I do honestly mean this, THANK YOU. That is a big step in the right direction for you, and I do hope you will do this more often. Providing context for your debate is absolutely critical to providing meaningful discussion.

Stop trying to teach me, Trinoya. Or maybe you can, after you explain where you got the idea that the Federation could intercept relativistic objects. I guess that they just turned off their targeting systems like Luke did in every battle we ever saw.

On a pure side note: Total stalemate, no side can attack one another now due to the galactic barrier.

Prove that it can affect hyperspace, and prove that you can't just go over it.

In your original scenario it was just a fleet arriving and doing its thing. Now that you have provided context I shall concede the supply issue.

Yeah, you assumed that it was a fleet arriving without bringing food and water along. Obviously that's standard imperial doctrine.

The Empire does not have enough force users, and definitely not enough jedi, sitting around, and the jedi are not part of the rebellion (at least any with substantive training). Yoda would not willingly help the empire at all, nor would obi-wan

It's a hypothetical scenario. The Alpha Quadrant uniting together is almost as unlikely as well.

No, I'm demonstrating the flaws in your 'brilliant' plan.

Saying that something is going to be difficult is not a "flaw".

*sigh* You don't even read these posts for the whole value do you?

Yeah, I have. Saying "zomg plotting hyperspace routes will be dangerous!" is different than proving that it can't be done.

Because the federation is far more likely to find out about the race blitzing and blowing up every planet it finds long before they find out about the federation...

Exactly how will they learn of it? Will they somehow implant spies in the Empire, despite not having the propulsion to actually get to the SW galaxy? Are these spies going to stand closer inspection when they know jack all about Star Wars' culture?

Prove that there were million of hyperspace routes.

I said potentially for a reason; the exactly number or even the OOM is irrelevant to the point. But, given the size of a galaxy, millions of hyperspace routes is hardly excessive.

Also my argument isn't the federation will be able to detect them, my argument is that they will be so difficult to create, maintain, and discover in the first place that the federation could wreak logistical havoc upon the empire after finding any hyper points.

HOW WILL THEY FIND THEM, AND HOW WILL THEY WREAK HAVOK ON AN ALTERNATE DIMENSION?

This all was made moot thanks to the galactic barrier though.

Which doesn't extend to hyperspace.

Yup, they know jack, until they beat the living crap out of a star destroyer,

So much for my plans having flaws. Not only is this effectively impossible with Federation ships, where exactly are they going to find a star destroyer within reach just hanging around in space

download its data,

Before it self destructs.

and then reverse engineer a hyper drive.

Like a true Trekkie, you seem to think that "reverse engineer" is a magic word.

I think they'd successfully do this far sooner than your entire concept of the empire successfully blitzing any and everything at once... a tactic they couldn't even do in their own universe despite having 'vast numerical advantages' of 'wankatons worth of ships'

The Empire never needed to do this super-blitz, and there's nothing challenging about blitzing everything at once, as you say, other than some basic math.

*face palm* You're not reading everything as a whole, take a step back and look at everything I'm trying to tell you. I'm showing you the limitation of hyperspace as a viable FTL propulsion method. I'm demonstrating to you that it can be controlled and that they are difficult to create and maintain. The logistical nightmare you are going to have with this type of a war HEAVILY FAVORS THE ALPHA QUADRANT POWERS.

What logistical nightmare Hyperspace routes are difficult to create, true. But once they are created, the Federation's fucked, and they don't know where they are, and can't blockade them. Again, your entire argument simply means that it's a matter of time. It doesn't stop the plan from working.

TCW: Season 3, the episode where they rescue Tarkin from prison. A dozen ships or so were involved in the battle, btw... if that.. (I only counted three venators...)

Again, you're getting the context wrong. Hyperspace routes are needed in situations with which both sides have it and you have time pressures. Here, that isn't a problem.

*sigh* All that is required is to generate gravity at a point. The federation can create blackholes in SECONDS. The very shield systems of the federation can make large amount of gravity where needed... They have the power AND the systems are dedicated.

Again, you need to show me how the Federation will learn of hyperspace and its properties, and how they will locate hyperspace routes faster than the Empire can. Notice that the latter has been using them for quite a while, and the former...well, hasn't.

Naturally you can prove that in that time they won't be discovered or destroyed by one of the countless forces in the milky-way galaxy that can destroy them...

Discovered? You mean the scouts and patrols they'll send?

or more importantly that they would successfully get hyperspace route data from star trek sensors? The very thing you're saying federation ships can't possibly detect...

They can't. They could infiltrate the Federation (infiltrate as in buying a map from a random citizen) to find planet locations. Hyperspace routing they can do on their own, just like they've done before.

In the time it will take them to force map a hyperspace route they would have lost untold numbers of ships and supplies, and likely had a few destroyed or captured. Period. This of course is assuming they could pass the galactic barrier.

Any materiel lost would amount to scouting forces. Hardly a dent in the imperial war machine.

They are not on time constraints because YOU say they aren't? You don't really get this at all...

They're on no reasonable time constraints because the Federation lacks the force projection to go on the offensive. The most they can do is to take out a few scouts and probe droids (which is already a mounting difficulty, given how large a star system is and how fast ships can hyper out).

*head desk* YOU are an EXTERIOR OBSERVER AWARE OF BOTH UNIVERSES STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES, WHAT YOU CAN COME UP WITH IS NOT WHAT THEY CAN COME UP WITH. YOU ARE NOT THEM. YOU CAN NOT COMMUNICATE YOUR IDEAS WITH THEM. THEY HAVE NOT DEMONSTRATED THIS LEVEL OF STRATEGIC THINKING IN TWO MAJOR WARS. BY DEFAULT THEY WILL NOT DO IT.

You don't need to have an intricate knowledge of an enemy's weaknesses to know that nuking them would be effective. All Star Wars needs to know is that Star Trek doesn't have planetary shields and that they don't have hyperdrives. Both would be self-evidence.

*sigh* I didn't say they couldn't build fusion reactors, I said they don't use fusion missiles on the scale that you want them to. AND THEY DON'T

So you're saying that, even though a good portion of the 100 quadrillion people in the galaxy have some device with fusion reactors of their own, and 10 million YT-1000 light freighters (The Millennium Falcon's class), by the pro Trek side's claim all using fusion reactors were produced every year at peak production, the Empire cannot get a few hundred thousand nuclear warheads, barely more than the number stockpiled by two early spaceflight nation-states?

Yes, but going through and attacking people who magically will just turn over the data is not likely to happen. Star trek is not star wars.. a R2 unit can't just hack the federation data base.

Again, you just need to send a single guy to Earth and have him buy a map from some random citizen. The Federation doesn't keep its planet locations secret.

Besides, Star Wars can still locate planets without the above technique. Even modern observatories have various methods of determining which stars have planets on them and which don't. A few scouting expeditions would do the trick.

Again, that is a demonstration of the weakness of hyperspace, not even the tactic they would use. I personally believe a long range federation explorer will find a star destroyer,

HOW?

beat the crap out of it when it opens fire for no reason,

Why the fuck would ISD's be part of a scouting expedition, your underrating of ISD weapon and defense systems aside?

download their data banks,

Because obviously there is NO failsafe for such an act.

send that information back to SFHQ, and then they will tell the empire to politely go home or else. The empire, having wasted all of its time on a futile endeavor of 'mass fusion missile blitz with a time frame measured in decades!" will go, rightfully so, "THIS WAS A STUPID IDEA."

Or else what?

*sigh* I've thought it over and frankly there is no point in continuing any attempts at reasoning with you in the immediate . The rest of your post is filled with the same errors, various attempts at misdirection, even forgetting what you said in this very thread... *sigh* I'll respond to this last point, and then I'm done... because frankly SWST... until you get better at debating and recognize the errors you're committing all you are doing is wasting everyone elses time. I know you can do better, I shall wait for that day. Till then, the last point because maybe you'll actually listen.

You know, one of your points that I find most erroneous is the idea that my tactic can’t be used because it’s never been done before. Despite the fact that Star Wars has the technology and logistics to pull of a very simplistic and easy to figure out plan, you just claim that they can’t do it. Why?

I claim they won't do it, not that they can't. Perhaps you should really look at the history of the debate and the endless counter claims of, "star busting is not a viable tactic" "no time travel" "cloaking won't be used." "No subterfuge" "no biological or chemical weapons" and so on. The countless times a trek tactic was dismissed because it wasn't used.

The reason they are dismissed is because that is the NATURE of the debate. We are not here to speculate on new and unusual tactics and then claim that our side would suddenly use them... we can only theorize on the demonstrable... A trek tactic OR a wars tactic that is known to be used or commonly taught simply should be counted as not being used.

Your tactic is not viable, cost effective, logistically sound, or demonstrable in universe. It is the shouting of a single poster who believes he has found the 'end all be all' and it would be laughed off the face of most other forums, and with far less civility than we give you here.

You can argue to me industrial might, you can argue to me BDZ. You can shout ICS and EU claims till kingdom come... I would meet these with point and counterpoint, with debate and discussion, revelation and reasoning, but when you make up a tactic that has no basis in canon as being viable I'm gonna call bullshit on it, I would expect nothing else of others if I did the same. Without that frame work we lead into a world of zero concessions, and fanboyism that just shouts, "well I shot you ten times" "well I shot you 10 + infinity!" Nothing productive will get done. Period.

As such we debate within reason, not within our dreams. I could dream that the federation could mass replicate fleets because they have the technology, that they could crew it all with clones, because they have they technology, and that they go off using warp 10 and trilithium torpedo all the stars in the star wars galaxy, because they have the technology...

However; that doesn't make it any more viable and realistic...

That is what you have forgotten, and that is why the time of mine that you are wasting is simply not worth it anymore. Feel free to address my statements in regards to other things with you, I eagerly await to see if you continue to shy away from those comments and posts.

Perhaps one day you'll realize how you've come off here, and perhaps one day you'll recognize the standard debate procedures that you're willingly ignoring.

We shall see. For what it's worth SWST, I don't think you're a bad person and I do sincerely wish you get better at debate. I'll look forward to that and maybe you'll surprise me.

Trin Out.

Good for you. You clearly have an overinflated sense of your debating skills, when you think that the Federation can just "reverse engineer hyperdrive" from a captured ISD. You offer no explanation as to how this is accomplished, you just assume that they can do it. By the way, it'll probably take longer for the UFP to install working hyperdrives on their ships than it would for Star Wars to completely map out the milky way galaxy to every star, planet and nebula, like they did with their own galaxy.

[sonofccn]

Uh, what? The 25,000 figure was just for the ISD's in the imperial fleet, not for the various other capital ships, frigates and starfighters.

No. That figure is for star destroyers period. Not Imperial. Lets try this again just in case your too lazy to look back two pages.

A thousand systems left, out of an Empire that had once spanned a million. Two hundred Star Destroyers remaining from a fleet that had once included over twenty-five thousand of them.

Now do you have anything...anything to suggest that quote is either wrong or counts only Imperial Star Destroyers? No? All right lets carry on.

Just how many of these expensive, resource intensive monsters do you think the Empire can spare of in a wild goose chase trying to chart "wild space" where just about every goober with a warp drive and a phaser array has a good chance of inflicting damage? How many ships do you think the Empire can afford to lose setting up for your "brilliant" plan?

Hardly, as most capital ships are pretty self sufficient. There's quite a bit of room on there for food, water and fuel.

Citation? Evidence? Proof? Where is this coming from?

By having a single guy go to Earth and buy one? You seem to think that the Federation keeps the location of its planets a secret. Archer gave the coordinates to Earth away on First Contact with an alien species that they hadn't even gotten the chance to look at.

Okay...they will find out where Earth is by going to Earth and buying a map. Gotcha. And here I thought you hadn't thought this out. Out of mild curosity will this single person be arriving in an Imperial shuttle or will he have to bum a ride off of a warp capable starship to reach the capitol planet of a world he has no blooming idea where its at or any starcharts.

The same way they did so in their own galaxy?

The same galaxy where they still haven't mapped everything out and there are "ancient" hyperspace routes leading to their capitol world that they couldn't find without the cordinates the Jedi Master memorized in Citadel. (@1:20)? After 25,000 years? At that rate the Federation will have evolved into energy beings before their done with their mapping. Face it charting hyperspace routes is a difficult, time consuming problem which you can not handwave.

Hence the several-hundred-million-kilometers-away part.

Sigh. Okay then. The Wounded
First we have this:

Picard, Riker, Data, Worf, Conn, and Macet. They are
gazing intently at the screen.

PICARD
The pursuing ship is the Phoenix.

MACET
And the other?

There is a hesitation, and some looks are exchanged.

DATA
We believe it to be a Cardassian
supply ship.

So they can see the two ships at least well enough to get a basic reading of them.

A little later:

DATA
The Phoenix is beginning evasive
maneuvers.
(beat)
It has positioned itself outside
the weapons range of the opposing
ship.
(beat)
The Phoenix has powered up with
both phasers and photon
torpedoes.
(beat)
The Phoenix is firing photon
torpedoes.

On the screen, the Phoenix has turned and is engaged
with the warship. The blips flutter a moment on the
screen... and then the Cardassian ship simply
disappears.

So at this range they can see the vessels enough to read weapons fire. So how far away were they you ask?

PICARD
Mister Data... estimated time
until we intercept the Phoenix.

DATA
At our present speed of warp four,
sixteen hours, forty-four minutes.

Even if we pretended the Enterprise was only doing the speed of light that would be nearly seventeen lighthours. A couple hundred light-days assuming the big E was doing 400c at the time. A few tens of light minutes from an armada of warships exiting hyperspace and bristling with weapons is unlikely to be missed. Hell the planet will likely know their in system before the Star Destroyer's crew can confirm it having to exit hyperspace blind and all.

And said ships would not be able to intercept thousands of relativistic missiles moving at varying velocities at various vectors. They'd need millions of ships per planet to form a reliable defensive sphere around a planet.

You have not provided a shred of proof missiles can travel at relativisitc speeds, which would still take tens of minutes to actually arrive on target, you have not provided any estimated, plans etc on how many torpedoes you think a Star Destroyer can be fitted with and these torpedoes of yours seem to becoming more and more complex with every post.

I mean now they have to be programed for wildly differnt velocities and vectors which only increases the difficulty of them hitting thier target at the inane distance you want them too.

"most defended" correlates with "most important", and crippling the key Federation planets such as Earth would be what matters. A few minor outposts surviving changes jack.

Most defended correlates to unlikely for you to do anything too. As I've drilled countlessly into your head within minutes of arriving at Earth you will have a dozen warships all of which are a fair match for your best breathing down your neck. Arriving before your missiles could ever hope to reach thier target at the range you so wish for.

Wanting them is different from needing them. It's like how a military force doesn't theoretically need railroads and roads to travel. It's obviously crucial in having them if you plan on fighting a conventional war against an opponent of rough parity.

Or actually advancing doubly so in this case because without it you are the equivlent of a marching army verses a fully motorized one. As in a Roman legion on march trying to outmanuver and out race the Modern US Army.

Not relativistic ones, and not reliably enough to change the outcome.

1. Your missiles are not relativisitc.
2. Shooting of a sublight vessel from high warp has been accomplished. Think about that for a moment. Your mythical relativistic torpedo would be the equivlent of a garden snail to them not even worth writting home about.

The presence of hyperdrives throws a kink in conventional logistics

Hyperdrive does not make men not need food, oxygen or warmth. Hyperdrives do not make reactors not need fuel. Hyperdrives do not make strike craft not need parts. Hyperdrives does nothing to absolve logistics. Worse since they will be unexplored and hostile space they will be burning through resources at a high rate and will be very far from home. Bad everywhich way around.

and I'd point out that the entire Imperial fleet is hardly needed, just enough to cover all Federation planets, meaning that you'd need any number of SD's ranging from 150 to 1000.

No. one Star Destroyer per planet will fail. Badly. Very badly. Very,very badly. That will not be able to defend your torpedoes on the 20 minute + long flight time it would take them to reach their target. You will need to send battlegroups to try and ensure your dismal attack actually connects with anything. So your looking at several hundred just for the 150 member worlds. Want to strike out at anything else only causes you to waste more.

That isn't even taking into account the numbers lost trying to map the Federation's corner of the galaxy which won't go very well. Besides the Feds who tend to get annoyed at interlopers tresspesing in their territory you have the Klingons and the Romulans on either side who react more...negativly to intruders.

You don't even need to send ISD's; frigates would do the trick.

Cute but no. They are too weak, will be easily overpowered and destroyed and certainly wouldn't survive the mapping procedure.

Which, again, is merely a matter of time. You're using stalling tactic.

It means your in a bloody convential war because the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and everyone else with two warp drives to rub togather will not allow you to bumble around blindly trying to charte Hyperspace routes. Which means in addition to everything that renders your plan unworkable the Federation will have long since seen it coming and make preperations. This is a fairly simple concept I do not understand why you keep struggling over it.

Oh, it would hardly take much scouting to realize that the Federation doesn't have planetary shields.

Except they do have shields which is yet another bloody failure on your part and your plan.

Federation can hardly scout planets that would take them years to reach,

Why? Your expecting the Empire to scout planets it will take them years to reach. Once again no charted hyperspace route your FTL drops into a nosedive.

and the Empire hardly has any major weaknesses that the Federation can use to stop the plan from working.

Actually the death of Palpy canoically causes the empire to shatter. Many worlds don't like the Empire. Many worlds do not appear actually have planetary shielding. There is no indicaiton they could detect much less intercept a warp driven starship. The Federation in addition has functional cloaking technology, through prohibited by treaty, the likes of which the Empire could only dream about. It would be completely possible for a Starfleet vessel to sit outside effective plantary defense ranges bombard with phasers incinerating great swaths of territory and then just flitter away at warp when help finally arrives leaving them baffeld and lost. All of which can be accomplished in just a few years, Galaxy class starships average 9000c in the dead of space between galaxies, and are just as likely if not more so to be useful as your plan.

You know you've lost when your counterrebuttal rests on the time travel gimmick

No. Merely everyone trying to politely explain to you in a gentle, caring way how out classed you are if you want to just play in the sandbox as it were. You want to build your deathfleet exactly how you would build it in Star Wars? Fine. We'll simply send a ship back a century and *poof* build ours but with ten decades of prep.

[Admiral Breetai]

no SWSt he kicked your ass you lost..hhhhaarrdd

and you still haven't come up with a viable counter to the industrial might of both the Dominion and the Federation who can field thousands to tens of thousands of ships...each capable of life wiping a planet

[StarWarsStarTrek]

No. That figure is for star destroyers period. Not Imperial. Lets try this again just in case your too lazy to look back two pages.
Specter of the past wrote:
A thousand systems left, out of an Empire that had once spanned a million. Two hundred Star Destroyers remaining from a fleet that had once included over twenty-five thousand of them.


Now do you have anything...anything to suggest that quote is either wrong or counts only Imperial Star Destroyers? No? All right lets carry on.

Just how many of these expensive, resource intensive monsters do you think the Empire can spare of in a wild goose chase trying to chart "wild space" where just about every goober with a warp drive and a phaser array has a good chance of inflicting damage? How many ships do you think the Empire can afford to lose setting up for your "brilliant" plan?

That’s what I meant. ISD’s/other star destroyers are in the 25,000, not every capital ship or frigate.

Citation? Evidence? Proof? Where is this coming from?

An imperial class 2 star destroyer has 6 years consumables, enough time to cross the milky way galaxy thousands of times.

Okay...they will find out where Earth is by going to Earth and buying a map. Gotcha. And here I thought you hadn't thought this out. Out of mild curosity will this single person be arriving in an Imperial shuttle or will he have to bum a ride off of a warp capable starship to reach the capitol planet of a world he has no blooming idea where its at or any starcharts.

So you honestly believe that the location of the Federation capital will stay a secret? I’m talking about plans to find other, less well known planets, not one that the Federation never even attempted to keep hidden, not even from alien races whom that hadn’t even gotten a chance to see yet.

The same galaxy where they still haven't mapped everything out and there are "ancient" hyperspace routes leading to their capitol world that they couldn't find without the cordinates the Jedi Master memorized in Citadel. (@1:20)? After 25,000 years? At that rate the Federation will have evolved into energy beings before their done with their mapping. Face it charting hyperspace routes is a difficult, time consuming problem which you can not handwave.

Oh, nobody denied that it was difficult or time consuming. But the only way you can win this argument is if you can prove that it is impossible, which you haven’t. Even if it takes Star Wars a long time to do so, they still win out in the end. Again, stalling tactics.

Sigh. Okay then. The Wounded
First we have this:
The Wounded wrote:
Picard, Riker, Data, Worf, Conn, and Macet. They are
gazing intently at the screen.

PICARD
The pursuing ship is the Phoenix.

MACET
And the other?

There is a hesitation, and some looks are exchanged.

DATA
We believe it to be a Cardassian
supply ship.


So they can see the two ships at least well enough to get a basic reading of them.

A little later:
The Wounded wrote:
DATA
The Phoenix is beginning evasive
maneuvers.
(beat)
It has positioned itself outside
the weapons range of the opposing
ship.
(beat)
The Phoenix has powered up with
both phasers and photon
torpedoes.
(beat)
The Phoenix is firing photon
torpedoes.

On the screen, the Phoenix has turned and is engaged
with the warship. The blips flutter a moment on the
screen... and then the Cardassian ship simply
disappears.

So at this range they can see the vessels enough to read weapons fire. So how far away were they you ask?
The Wounded wrote:
PICARD
Mister Data... estimated time
until we intercept the Phoenix.

DATA
At our present speed of warp four,
sixteen hours, forty-four minutes.
Even if we pretended the Enterprise was only doing the speed of light that would be nearly seventeen lighthours. A couple hundred light-days assuming the big E was doing 400c at the time. A few tens of light minutes from an armada of warships exiting hyperspace and bristling with weapons is unlikely to be missed. Hell the planet will likely know their in system before the Star Destroyer's crew can confirm it having to exit hyperspace blind and all.

Hardly. The gravitational field of Jupiter (or was it Saturn?) was enough to shield the 2009 Enterprise from detection by a more advanced Romulan time traveling mining ship, and the the whatever-magnetic-technobabble of the moon was enough to shield the time traveling Enterprise from detection by the Vulcans. And even if the Federation does detect the imperial ships, they could hardly even start to shoot them before the imperials, with the element of surprise, fire their missile complement.

You have not provided a shred of proof missiles can travel at relativisitc speeds,

Sure I have. In the RotS novelization starfighters were described as firing weapons at near light speed, in Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor X wings were navigating through an asteroid field at near-relativistic speeds, in Star by Star X wings were doing relativistic strafing runs and Luke’s proton torpedo made a 70,000 G turn in ANH.

which would still take tens of minutes to actually arrive on target, you have not provided any estimated, plans etc on how many torpedoes you think a Star Destroyer can be fitted with and these torpedoes of yours seem to becoming more and more complex with every post.

Oh, please. Look at a picture and the dimensions of a star destroyer. You don’t think that you can’t stuff a few thousand missiles on there? Indeed, Venators do come with several hundred heavy concussion missiles, and the Mandalorians launched a nuclear missile barrage at Secerro using ships far smaller and less advanced than ISD’s.

I mean now they have to be programed for wildly differnt velocities and vectors which only increases the difficulty of them hitting thier target at the inane distance you want them too.

Hardly a challenge, just have the computer randomize acceleration speeds. You could do that with True Basic.

Most defended correlates to unlikely for you to do anything too. As I've drilled countlessly into your head within minutes of arriving at Earth you will have a dozen warships all of which are a fair match for your best breathing down your neck. Arriving before your missiles could ever hope to reach thier target at the range you so wish for

If by breathing down your neck you mean 250 million kilometers away, sure.

Or actually advancing doubly so in this case because without it you are the equivlent of a marching army verses a fully motorized one. As in a Roman legion on march trying to outmanuver and out race the Modern US Army.

Excuse me? Your analogy is reversed. You concede that hyperdrive is faster than warp drive by a decent margin, correct?

1. Your missiles are not relativisitc.

Yes, they are. RotS novelization, Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor.

2. Shooting of a sublight vessel from high warp has been accomplished. Think about that for a moment. Your mythical relativistic torpedo would be the equivlent of a garden snail to them not even worth writting home about.

Too bad that Federation starships consistently miss against realspace <1km/s vessels while they themselves are in realspace. For whatever reason, FTL combat is completely different than realspace combat. Otherwise, every battle we ever saw in Star Trek would be over in seconds, with these theoretical super tracking computers (humans can’t track relativistic targets) vaporizing the other side in microseconds.

Hyperdrive does not make men not need food,

Already addressed, an ISD2 has 6 years consumables.

oxygen

How is this a problem? Don’t ISD’s have oxygen in them to you?

or warmth.

With either a hypermatter or fusion reactor depending on your stance, the opposite is likely the issue. But we’ve never seen crews freeze to death or burn to death in Star Wars, even in battles that last weeks instead of this one, which is either going to be lost or one in a matter of days.

Hyperdrives do not make reactors not need fuel.

ICS2 gives capital ships a range of around 250,000 light years with hyperdrive.

Hyperdrives do not make strike craft not need parts.

And ISD’s have plenty of parts.

Hyperdrives does nothing to absolve logistics. Worse since they will be unexplored and hostile space they will be burning through resources at a high rate and will be very far from home. Bad everywhich way around.

Hostile space? Literally less than 0.0000000000001% of that space is within firing range of a Federation vessel, and they can’t track, outrun or even affect ships in hyperspace.
You’re making up random lists of supposed logistical problems…such as oxygen and food, neither of which star destroyers have ever had a problem maintaining.

No. one Star Destroyer per planet will fail. Badly. Very badly. Very,very badly. That will not be able to defend your torpedoes on the 20 minute + long flight time it would take them to reach their target.

Defend the torpedos? Again, the torpedos at relativistic speeds and accelerating at randomized speeds hardly need protecting. Even if the Federation intercepts half of them, they still get screwed.

You will need to send battlegroups to try and ensure your dismal attack actually connects with anything. So your looking at several hundred just for the 150 member worlds. Want to strike out at anything else only causes you to waste more.

You have no idea just how large a star system is if you think that the UTP can effectively cover one to the point that they can even so much as fire before the imperials do.
And if you really insist, the task groups can simply clump together into several one thousand ISD fleets and swarm systems one by one. They’ll move through hyperspace faster than any reinforcements can come, heck, even faster than word of the attacks get out, because Star Wars FTL travel is faster than Star Trek FTL communications.

That isn't even taking into account the numbers lost trying to map the Federation's corner of the galaxy which won't go very well. Besides the Feds who tend to get annoyed at interlopers tresspesing in their territory you have the Klingons and the Romulans on either side who react more...negativly to intruders.

No capital ships would have to be involved in the scouting. The only ships that may get captured or destroyed are small patrol vessels.

Cute but no. They are too weak, will be easily overpowered and destroyed and certainly wouldn't survive the mapping procedure.

They don’t need heavy shielding (which, by Star Trek standards, is still stronger than Starfleet, but that’s another debate), they just have to launch a ton of missiles in succession and then bail out through hyperspace.

It means your in a bloody convential war because the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and everyone else with two warp drives to rub togather will not allow you to bumble around blindly trying to charte Hyperspace routes. Which means in addition to everything that renders your plan unworkable the Federation will have long since seen it coming and make preperations. This is a fairly simple concept I do not understand why you keep struggling over it.

Again, you don’t understand how big space is. Not even every faction in the Alpha Quadrant working together could effectively track and intercept patrol ships who would spend 99% of their time in hyperspace and a few minutes, maybe, somewhere in realspace. Even if they could, it would hardly be a “bloody conventional war” as much as it would be the Federation taking potshots at random patrol ships.

I also find it interesting that you think that all of the above factions would unite just against Star Wars plotting maps, even though they hardly united against a full scale invasion by the Dominion. I guess I’ll take that as a concession that the Empire is a greater threat than the Dominion ever would be.

Except they do have shields which is yet another bloody failure on your part and your plan.

They have rare shields that sometimes block stuff. Usually, they just block transmissions, and a single ship can cut through them with their phasers.

Why? Your expecting the Empire to scout planets it will take them years to reach. Once again no charted hyperspace route your FTL drops into a nosedive.

Hyperdrive without hyperspace routes plotted are slower, but still faster than warp drive. You seem to be under the impression that hyperdrives can’t work at all without hyperspace routes. Not only is this canonically false, but it presents a paradox; how were hyperspace routes plotted in the first place if hyperdrives couldn’t function without them?

Actually the death of Palpy canoically causes the empire to shatter.

Are you postulating that the Federation can get an assassin into Coruscant (in which the assassin would likely be an old man when he gets there) and assassinate Palpatine? Jee, I wonder why the Rebel Alliance didn’t try that.

Many worlds don't like the Empire. Many worlds do not appear actually have planetary shielding. There is no indicaiton they could detect much less intercept a warp driven starship.

Even if they can’t, it would take decades for them to reach anywhere. The war would already have been over.

The Federation in addition has functional cloaking technology, through prohibited by treaty, the likes of which the Empire could only dream about.

And you know that you’re side is in a losing position if it has to resort to desperation weapons and break major treaties to try and win.

It would be completely possible for a Starfleet vessel to sit outside effective plantary defense ranges bombard with phasers incinerating great swaths of territory and then just flitter away at warp when help finally arrives leaving them baffeld and lost.

Phasers dissipate over distances. Missiles don’t. Your plan would hardly be as devastating as mine. Also, your plan only works for planets that don’t have any formidable defenses or planetary shields. The key planets would be protected, and thus all that the Federation could do would be to annoy the Empire.

All of which can be accomplished in just a few years, Galaxy class starships average 9000c in the dead of space between galaxies, and are just as likely if not more so to be useful as your plan.

Except that, after over 400 years the UFP still hasn’t plotted out the Milky Way. They could hardly get anywhere in the Star Wars galaxy.

No. Merely everyone trying to politely explain to you in a gentle, caring way how out classed you are if you want to just play in the sandbox as it were. You want to build your deathfleet exactly how you would build it in Star Wars? Fine. We'll simply send a ship back a century and *poof* build ours but with ten decades of prep.

Send your ship back a century and you get the Old Republic, which still has nuclear weapons, still has hyperdrive and still has more ships than the Federation has planets. You lose just as badly.

To elaborate on my plan and expand it, since you seem to misunderstand it:

1. Mass produce billions of small patrol ships. We know that this can be done, given that the Death Star 2 easily masses far more, and was constructed in the Outer Rim in relative secrecy. We also know from Star Wars: Millennium Falcon that individual ship production companies can manufacture tens of millions of freighter sized ships every year.
2. Go to Earth (which, again, is no secret) and bribe a random citizen into giving you a map. You just need to find one in the many billions of people on Earth. Or heck, you don’t even need to bribe. Just buy it from a store.
3. Use the patrol ships to plot out hyperspace routes. The Alpha Quadrant forces may fire on you if in the extremely unlikely event that one of their ships just happens to be within firing range. You may lose a few patrol ships, but they’ll all add up to no noticeable materiel loss.
4. Get your 25,000 ISD’s and equip them each with five thousand thermonuclear weapons, programmed to accelerate at randomized but extreme speeds along randomized vectors.
5. Assign 25 ISD’s to each Federation planet and have them hyper out 150 million kilometers away from the planet, but each ISD coming from a different direction.
6. Fire nuclear missiles at planet.
7. Even going by upper end estimates on Star Trek weapon range, once the missiles go relativistic the ST defenders would only have around a second to intercept the missiles. With 25 ISD’s to each planet and 1000 nukes per ISD, there would be 25000 nuclear missiles for each planet. Since the high end estimates for Starfleet’s size is 30,000 ships (including fighters), there would be on average 30 ships per planet and over 833 missiles for each starship to intercept within a second. No Federation starship has shown a phaser RPM or photon torpedo RPM that high, even if they could intercept relativistic weapons.

[sonofccn]

That’s what I meant. ISD’s/other star destroyers are in the 25,000, not every capital ship or frigate.

Sure you did. Unfortantly everything else is immensly inferior to a star destroyer.

An imperial class 2 star destroyer has 6 years consumables

Source? Where are you getting this from?

enough time to cross the milky way galaxy thousands of times.

Sigh. Lets run some numbers. If we assume on a good well maintained route allows travel a million times the speed of light, not exactly a low figure,and you only drop to half speed when flying blind it will take you 400 years to cross the Milky Way galaxy two thousand times. This would be traveling back and forth in a straight line without halt. If you are actually mapping a volume of space it will take much longer.

So I must ask that you provide some numbers most importantly in the drop off rate between charted and uncharted territory.

So you honestly believe that the location of the Federation capital will stay a secret? I’m talking about plans to find other, less well known planets, not one that the Federation never even attempted to keep hidden, not even from alien races whom that hadn’t even gotten a chance to see yet.

I believe finding out where Earth is won't give you a hyperspace lane to it. I believe being told where Earth is in relation to a Galaxy you know nothing about is of dubious use. Getting to Earth will be an undertaking not just a quick stop off as you are trying to handwave it.

Oh, nobody denied that it was difficult or time consuming. But the only way you can win this argument is if you can prove that it is impossible, which you haven’t. Even if it takes Star Wars a long time to do so, they still win out in the end. Again, stalling tactics.

Your entire plan hinges on surprising the Federation with hyperdrives. That can not be maintained if you are tramping around at blithering slow speed through their territory. For all intents and purposes you will not be able to map Federation space in any sufficent regard unless you are engaged in a grueling, grinding all out war.

Hardly. The gravitational field of Jupiter (or was it Saturn?) was enough to shield the 2009 Enterprise from detection by a more advanced Romulan time traveling mining ship, and the the whatever-magnetic-technobabble of the moon was enough to shield the time traveling Enterprise from detection by the Vulcans. And even if the Federation does detect the imperial ships, they could hardly even start to shoot them before the imperials, with the element of surprise, fire their missile complement.

So in rebuttal to my specific citation of evidence for a 24th century vesselyou give me vague descriptions of an mining ship and a 21th century Vulcan ship. Sorry not good enough. Try again.

Sure I have. In the RotS novelization starfighters were described as firing weapons at near light speed

Here look at the Venator at 1:34. Look at the fighters which buzz it at 1:44 and who take until 1:58 to cross its lenght during their photogenic flyby of its hull. Not blistering speed there, establishing they are moving no where near relative velocity. Compare them to the missile fired at 4:05. It isn't super by several orders of magnitudes faster. G-canon. No super-fast missiles.

Luke’s proton torpedo made a 70,000 G turn in ANH.

Which was a turn. Certainly impressive but it isn't a high velocity missile anymore than those buzzdroid missile things were.

Oh, please. Look at a picture and the dimensions of a star destroyer. You don’t think that you can’t stuff a few thousand missiles on there?

Since I am not familar with how much of the ship's interior is taken up with life support, fuel storage, reactor, crew quarters, strike craft, spare parts, food and water storage no I can not simply look at a picture and deduce how many missiles an ISD could carry.

Indeed, Venators do come with several hundred heavy concussion missiles

Venators are not much smaller than ISDs and I presume Venators came standard with concussion missiles as opposed to this retrofite your attempting with ISDs. The fact they only carry hundreds should give us pause to consider.

Mandalorians launched a nuclear missile barrage at Secerro using ships far smaller and less advanced than ISD’s.

How many missiles per ship? Were these ships set up as torpedo boats or improvised into this role.

Hardly a challenge, just have the computer randomize acceleration speeds. You could do that with True Basic.

And vectors you wanted to change that too which involves either moving your warship to differnt positions or the missile has to fly off and perform a delicate manuver both increases the diffuclty of crunching the needed numbers to hit a planet at several hundred million kilometers.

If by breathing down your neck you mean 250 million kilometers away, sure.

Since they would have just crossed lightyears to reach you why praytell would a measly 250 million extra kilometers matter to them? Their starships, they are designed to travel through space.

Excuse me? Your analogy is reversed. You concede that hyperdrive is faster than warp drive by a decent margin, correct?

Hyperdrive on a good route vs a starship in unfamilar territory? Yes I'd give advantage to the hyperdrive. Hyperdrive without a decent map and no route in the Federation's backyard? Advantage warpdrive.

Too bad that Federation starships consistently miss against realspace <1km/s vessels while they themselves are in realspace. For whatever reason, FTL combat is completely different than realspace combat. Otherwise, every battle we ever saw in Star Trek would be over in seconds, with these theoretical super tracking computers (humans can’t track relativistic targets) vaporizing the other side in microseconds.

No I'm afraid occasionaly against a smaller, agile ship hugging your emiter doesn't invalidate being able to hit a sublight target from warp or beam a landing party down to a planet from warp. Not that it matters of course since your torpedoes are slow as hell.

How is this a problem? Don’t ISD’s have oxygen in them to you?

I'm sure it does just like it has food and water onboard. The question is how much and long will it last before it has to be resupplied. It is a supply that must be replenished in some manner and a hyperdrive doesn't solve it.

With either a hypermatter or fusion reactor depending on your stance, the opposite is likely the issue.

True but writing warmth was easier than enviromental regulation. The fact remains you have to maintain a certain tempature/enviroment for humans otherwise they stop moving. All takes energy at some point and thus requires the depletion of resources.

But we’ve never seen crews freeze to death or burn to death in Star Wars, even in battles that last weeks instead of this one, which is either going to be lost or one in a matter of days.

Unless you have evidence they can chart a new galaxy in less than a day no I'm afraid it will last much, much, much longer.

ICS2 gives capital ships a range of around 250,000 light years with hyperdrive.

Which also the book which gave a medium transport 200 gigaton quad turbolaser and the next penned by the same author gave light-minute ranges. Color me skeptical. Got anything to verify this?

And ISD’s have plenty of parts.

Sigh. You argued hyperdrives remove logistics. Arguing that an ISD carries plenty of parts defeats your previous argument.

Hostile space? Literally less than 0.0000000000001% of that space is within firing range of a Federation vessel

Sigh. So you are honestly trying to argue that blindly jumping through space, while trying to chart routes to important planets mind you, and these huge honking warships will just avoid detection? That is your argument? The Romulans with freaking cloaking devices can't be assured of sneaking into the Federation but ISDs can just waltz around without issue.

and they can’t track, outrun or even affect ships in hyperspace.

True, the same for Warp. However you have to come out of hyperspace to map, you literally fly blind with hyperdrive. The actual mapping process is likely to be a very difficult, time consuming process with extended durations in real-time.

You’re making up random lists of supposed logistical problems…such as oxygen and food, neither of which star destroyers have ever had a problem maintaining.

I am trying to impress upon you the magnitude of the undertaking you keep trying to brush off. You are in essence sending men into the jungle to map it and are refusing to understand the immense resource comitment that undertakes.

Defend the torpedos? Again, the torpedos at relativistic speeds and accelerating at randomized speeds hardly need protecting. Even if the Federation intercepts half of them, they still get screwed.

Yes defend the torpedoes because you for reasons which can not be determined are obsessed with firing from hundreds of millions of kilometers away which will take forever with your puny little missiles.

You have no idea just how large a star system is if you think that the UTP can effectively cover one to the point that they can even so much as fire before the imperials do.

I presume you mean the UFP. And I presented to you evidence of at least multi light-hour range while you want to land at a light-minute range. So yes I have no problem stating the planet in question will detect the disturbence before the Imperials can confirm they've even landed in the right system.

And if you really insist, the task groups can simply clump together into several one thousand ISD fleets and swarm systems one by one.

Okay are we talking about just one thousand star destroyers or several thousand? At minimum you are committing 1/25 of your star destroyer force. That is not an minor amount.

They’ll move through hyperspace faster than any reinforcements can come

Dropping out hyperspace, figuring you reached your desired target, getting into the correct and unchangable position you precaculated for your mad gambit and than firing all takes time. Reinforcments will began arriving in minutes.

even faster than word of the attacks get out, because Star Wars FTL travel is faster than Star Trek FTL communications.

You are seriously discounting time spent in system as well as Federation com systems.http://tng.trekcore.com/episodes/scripts/106.txt

PICARD
That's not possible. Data, what
is our distance traveled?

DATA
Two million -- seven hundred
thousand light years.

GEORDI
Message on this has been
transmitted to Starfleet, sir.

DATA
Which, traveling subspace, they
should receive in fifty-one years,
ten months...

About 38,000c across dead space with no subspace communication relays. IE at its slowest and most basic crawl.

No capital ships would have to be involved in the scouting. The only ships that may get captured or destroyed are small patrol vessels.

No. Small vessels will not have the strenght or capabilities of this sort of hazardous work. A ISD would have serious trouble against a run of the mill Federation vessel. A small patrol craft would be target practice.

Again, you don’t understand how big space is. Not even every faction in the Alpha Quadrant working together could effectively track and intercept patrol ships who would spend 99% of their time in hyperspace and a few minutes, maybe, somewhere in realspace.

First off you have your figures backwards.99% of the Imperials time would be spent in real space trying to map the star systems. Second I am not assuming anyone works with anyone else. I am assuming the various sensor nets, starships sensors etc they use to spy and moniter each other will detect the interlopers who will have all the stealth of a bull in a china shop.

I also find it interesting that you think that all of the above factions would unite just against Star Wars plotting maps, even though they hardly united against a full scale invasion by the Dominion.

I am assuming all of them would react negativly to the starship that just blundered into their territory. Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians are highly hostile species and if you are flying blind having no idea of the local enviroment much less political borders you are likely are going to blunder from one side of a border to the other. In addition there is no certanity your routes won't take you across borders anyway.

I guess I’ll take that as a concession that the Empire is a greater threat than the Dominion ever would be.

Sigh.
1. Your...line of thought if I may use such a bold word is nonsensical.
2. I never said what you think I said.
3. I do not have an issue with the Empire being a greater threat than the Dominion, I in fact strongly believe the Empire would be a victor in any Federation-Imperial war.

They have rare shields that sometimes block stuff. Usually, they just block transmissions, and a single ship can cut through them with their phasers

Follow the link I gave you two pages back. The Enterprise fails to cut through at its weakest point and if you wish to state the shields are rare you must provide evidence.

Hyperdrive without hyperspace routes plotted are slower, but still faster than warp drive.

Please provide evidence for this assumption.

You seem to be under the impression that hyperdrives can’t work at all without hyperspace routes.

Sigh. Knock off the strawman. I believe hyperdrives suffer a massive drop in quality once you go off routes. Which is canon. So great in fact that the ownership and or control of routes is pivotal.

Are you postulating that the Federation can get an assassin into Coruscant (in which the assassin would likely be an old man when he gets there) and assassinate Palpatine?

Uh one year across, five years to reach Imperial Center...six years. I don't think everyone would be pushing gray by then.

Jee, I wonder why the Rebel Alliance didn’t try that.

The Rebellion didn't have a warship the Imperials couldn't touch or stop that can deposite a spread of photon torpedoes above Palpy's head now did they?

Even if they can’t, it would take decades for them to reach anywhere. The war would already have been over.

Six years and you can't move until you make your routes which takes how long again? Oh right twenty-five thousand years and they still have undetected routes in the Core systems. I really like my odds.

And you know that you’re side is in a losing position if it has to resort to desperation weapons and break major treaties to try and win.

And you know you are in a losing position when the above cop out is the best you can pull.

Phasers dissipate over distances. Missiles don’t.

Phasers hold togather good enough to hit a starship at 300,000 KM. Replace starship with planet and your golden. As well a starship comes equiped with photon torpedoes should it require to use them.

Except that, after over 400 years the UFP still hasn’t plotted out the Milky Way. They could hardly get anywhere in the Star Wars galaxy.

Actually I was assuming no maps and Voyager 1000c average. If they had charts it would be over much faster. Try again.

Send your ship back a century and you get the Old Republic, which still has nuclear weapons, still has hyperdrive and still has more ships than the Federation has planets.

Obviously I didn't break this down easy enough for you. Imagine a thousand warships capable of flying across your galaxy in under ten minutes. That don't need mapping to travel at millions of times the speed of light. Imagine you can't see them, can't detect them, won't even know they exist until they attack. Imagine they are equiped with warheads which explode stars. Now imagine this fleet was waiting for that precise moment when the starwars galaxies appears and before the Empire even realizes the Federation exists is wiped out over night. Understand?

Mass produce billions of small patrol ships. We know that this can be done, given that the Death Star 2 easily masses far more

We know nothing. We do not know how much the death star projects ate up of Imperial resources nor do we know how well its mass can be translated into smaller vessels. All we do know is the one solid ship count we have the Empire falls very, very short than what you would get if you used the Death star as your benchmark.

We also know from Star Wars: Millennium Falcon that individual ship production companies can manufacture tens of millions of freighter sized ships every year.

Quote please.

Go to Earth (which, again, is no secret) and bribe a random citizen into giving you a map. You just need to find one in the many billions of people on Earth. Or heck, you don’t even need to bribe. Just buy it from a store.

As previously stated this is not an easy or simple task.

Use the patrol ships to plot out hyperspace routes. The Alpha Quadrant forces may fire on you if in the extremely unlikely event that one of their ships just happens to be within firing range. You may lose a few patrol ships, but they’ll all add up to no noticeable materiel loss.

As previously stated you underestimate sensor range and the length of time spent in real space. You also fail to realize just how simply these patrol crafts will be to destroy.

Get your 25,000 ISD’s and equip them each with five thousand thermonuclear weapons, programmed to accelerate at randomized but extreme speeds along randomized vectors.

You sort of skipped the massive undertaking of retrofitting them to handle the new ordance and actually building it.

Assign 25 ISD’s to each Federation planet and have them hyper out 150 million kilometers away from the planet, but each ISD coming from a different direction.

Which increases the complexity of your calculations.

Fire nuclear missiles at planet.

You forgot confirm you are in the correct system, that you are in the proper alignment of fire etc.

Even going by upper end estimates on Star Trek weapon range, once the missiles go relativistic the ST defenders would only have around a second to intercept the missiles.

Okay...please listen. Light moves about 300,000 kilometers a second. At 250,000,000 kilometers light would take 13 minutes. At the speed of light which is faster than a relativistic missile just in case your curious. Your missiles will take longer. Of that there can not be an argument. A starship has all the time inthe world to shoot down your missiles. There is no getting around this.

Since the high end estimates for Starfleet’s size is 30,000 ships (including fighters),

Where is this coming from? We have a rough estimate of 10,000 capitol ships and nothing on fighters.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I'm doing fantasy football right now, but I have my response partially typed up. I'd like to point out, in advance, that the patrol ships would only have to spend seconds in realspace at a time. That's right, seconds. Collecting data on the surrounding space is surprisingly easy; Atomic Rockets has good information on how easy it is for even modern technology to scan the night sky. The more intensive part would be to actually analyze the data, but that doesn't have to be done in realspace; as soon as the data is collected, the ship can go back into hyperspace and calculate things from there.

So therefore, you're suggesting that the Federation can detect enemy patrol vessels, pass the information around and mobilize ships to get to them in the time it takes for the ship to make a few different scans? Whoever was talking about logistics again?

Also, I'd like to point out that it actually doesn't really matter how fast non-hyperspace route plotted hyperdrive is, so long that it's fast enough to get there before the crew starves or grows old. The Federation can't detect or do jack against vessels in hyperspace; they're basically on "base" in tag. Whether it takes ISD team X an hour or a day to get to Earth changes little.

[sonofccn]

I'm doing fantasy football right now, but I have my response partially typed up.

No problem. Take your time.

I'd like to point out, in advance, that the patrol ships would only have to spend seconds in realspace at a time. That's right, seconds. Collecting data on the surrounding space is surprisingly easy; Atomic Rockets has good information on how easy it is for even modern technology to scan the night sky.

Unless Atomic Rockets have a section on mapping hyperspace routes I fail to see how they are relevant. Now if you have any evidence for a typical mapping I would love to see it otherwise assuming that you'll just spend too little time in realspace is an unwarrented assumption.

So therefore, you're suggesting that the Federation can detect enemy patrol vessels, pass the information around and mobilize ships to get to them in the time it takes for the ship to make a few different scans? Whoever was talking about logistics again?

The above has nothing to do with a logisitic train. We are discussing response time as well as duration of a mapping mission. Suffice it to say we disagree strongly on both.

Also, I'd like to point out that it actually doesn't really matter how fast non-hyperspace route plotted hyperdrive is, so long that it's fast enough to get there before the crew starves or grows old. The Federation can't detect or do jack against vessels in hyperspace; they're basically on "base" in tag. Whether it takes ISD team X an hour or a day to get to Earth changes little.

Or in otherwords it matters a great deal. Barring you having evidence on the matter assuming hyperdrive will just be fast enough across uncharted space is an extreme unwarrented assumption.

[Praeothmin]

Uh, what? The 25,000 figure was just for the ISD's in the imperial fleet, not for the various other capital ships, frigates and starfighters.

I will accept this when I see the quote that states this, and where the quote is from…

Hardly, as most capital ships are pretty self sufficient. There's quite a bit of room on there for food, water and fuel.

Not talking about packing, I’m talking about coordinating a fleet of over a million ships, which was never done in SW…
The biggest fleet we saw was blockading Naboo, and had maybe 1200 to 2000 ships, top, and they were not scattered all across space, but were all doing the same thing: sitting in orbit of one single planet…

And nowhere did I claim that their nuclear warheads were stronger than their turbolasers.

Ah, ok, so they’re firing millions of double to triple-digit KT warheads…
Still would hurt… :)

By having a single guy go to Earth and buy one? You seem to think that the Federation keeps the location of its planets a secret. Archer gave the coordinates to Earth away on First Contact with an alien species that they hadn't even gotten the chance to look at.

Ok, they have the map to Earth, but still, this doesn’t give them the maps to all other planets…
Plus, still not that easy to go to Earth…
And they still haven’t planned their Hyperspace routes, and you have yet to prove their sensors can do it in a short time, which means greater chance of detection by the Feds, and greater chance of interception by Fed fleets…

And said ships would not be able to intercept thousands of relativistic missiles moving at varying velocities at various vectors.

Prove it…

It's like how a military force doesn't theoretically need railroads and roads to travel. It's obviously crucial in having them if you plan on fighting a conventional war against an opponent of rough parity.

Wow!
That analogy’s so bad it’s not even funny…
If you intend to travel using trains, yes, you need the railroads…
Even if you don’t use roads, if you have ATVs, you’ll still need a practicable trail to go through, or else you’re going to be travelling very, very slow, and will increase your chances of discovery very fast…

Even better, we have such technology today in real life.

Not at the speeds shown in ST and SW…

Not relativistic ones, and not reliably enough to change the outcome.

Prove it with some actual evidence...

The presence of hyperdrives throws a kink in conventional logistics, and I'd point out that the entire Imperial fleet is hardly needed, just enough to cover all Federation planets, meaning that you'd need any number of SD's ranging from 150 to 1000. You don't even need to send ISD's; frigates would do the trick.

Then you no longer have the shitload of missiles needed to overwhelm Federation defences, and the Fed fleets outnumber the SW fleet by at least ten to one…

Which, again, is merely a matter of time. You're using stalling tactic.

Hm, no, I’m using logic…
The more time it takes the Empire to plan this and plan their routes, the more chances they have of being discovered, and of their plans being affected…

it would hardly take much scouting to realize that the Federation doesn't have planetary shields.

Oh, so back to your old habits of ignoring actual evidence now, hm?
The Federation does, indeed, have planetary shields, as has been shown many, many times here…
Unless, of course, you have direct evidence to the contrary?

You know you've lost when your counterrebuttal rests on the time travel gimmick. That's a last resort argument, and it doesn't even work that well either. See my other post.

Could have been worse, I could have said:
Here’s how the Federation wins:
They equip all their ships with phase cloaks, transphasic armor and torpedoes, the Genesis Device, and transwarp (the coil voyager got from the Borg, the one they were able to analyze and use), and then they use subspace telescopes to scan the SW Galaxy, and then they send one ship per important planet in the SW Galaxy, say 1000, like Coruscant, Nar Shadda, Rhodia, and they fire one Genesis torpedo at each planet, destroying the Galactic economy, and leaving the Empire in shambles…

So, using all available technology, I just got a win for the Feds…

Of course, unlike you, I know my scenario is implausible, since it’s not in the Fed’s habits…

[Praeothmin]

By the way, it'll probably take longer for the UFP to install working hyperdrives on their ships than it would for Star Wars to completely map out the milky way galaxy to every star, planet and nebula, like they did with their own galaxy.

Wow, to think that SW maps the ST Galaxy first, before the ST scientists reverse engineer SW tech, you

clearly have an overinflated sense of your debating skills, as you offer no explanation as to how fast this is accomplished, you just assume that they can do it...

:)

And they're faster than Star Trek FTL communications, so warnings won't be heard in time.

Prove it…

Which doesn't extend to hyperspace.

Prove it…

About 38,000c across dead space with no subspace communication relays. IE at its slowest and most basic crawl.

Small issue with this "speed" figure for communications…
Such slow speeds would mean that the Dominion war would not have been possible, since they travelled to Remus, to Earth, to Bajor, to Kronos, all with real-time communications, all within days some times, which, since Remus is most likely over 130 LY away from Earth, with Bajor 50 LY from Earth, and Kronos at least as far, would not be possible…
Real-time communications were done between Starfleet command on Earth and DS9, 50 LY away…
So 50 LY in 1 second for Real-Time comms is 1 576 800 000c…

[sonofccn]

Small issue with this "speed" figure for communications…

Only one? Yeah! New personal best!!! ;)

Such slow speeds would mean that the Dominion war would not have been possible, since they travelled to Remus, to Earth, to Bajor, to Kronos, all with real-time communications,

Well I chalk it up to those relay emitters Archer was dropping back in Silent Enemy, through presumbly upgraded and better, while the "Where no one has gone before" example would be bottom of the barrel "snail mail" creating a low ball estimate. As well I had that example saved to my harddrive so I used it.