The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

[Mr. Oragahn]

That's also possible. Admittedly, outside of the asinine visuals of TCWS, it is possible to get low megatons, and perhaps several dozens of megatons for a pre-charged shot.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

*sigh* an uninformed and terrible post as usual.


I'm waiting in anticipation.


Laughable. You have no clue what the number is for the total number of planets and you're just stating that they will basically have enough. You havn't even watched enough star trek to know what 'enough' is, unless you've been tanking it really hardcore since your first time here.

Feel free to show me a source implicating that the Federation has more than twenty five thousand planets, the fleet count for just imperial star destroyers in the Imperial navy.

Tactics not generally used, or used as a one off tactic, or something that is not taught as a dedicated doctrine are not viable. We couldn't claim that the federation would fight with solar flares (even though this is a demonstrated capability) because they don't use it very often as a tactic. The Empire in T and G cannon do not utilize nuclear bombs for such purposes.

Their use in the EU is rare at best.

That's a silly claim. If the tactic I am proposing works is within their means (logistically, technologically, tactically and strategically), why can't they do it? The reason why it isn't used is because a situation in which it would work hasn't come up in Star Wars; civilization of a few thousand planets without planetary shields that the invader wants to destroy, not conquer. It's never shown up in Star Wars, so your point is moot.

It's like saying that Jedi can't block phasers because they've never blocked phasers before. It's stupid, because they've never been in such a situation in which they could.

You provide no peramiters to the nature of the link of the galaxies. You provide no data that anyone will actually provide them such information without an even exchange.

Furthermore, you provide absolutely no evidence as to how they make first contact with anyone in the first place. It's just as likely they encounter 8472 or the Borg before they encounter random civilization that just magically knows where all the dominion AND federation planets are.

So your entire argument rests on the basis that the Empire doesn't know where the Federation planets are. That means that, as soon as the Empire does figure out where their planets are, it's game over. The only way your stance can possibly work is to argue that the Federation can keep its planet locations secret indefinitely.

You know that can't happen. The dominion was well aware of where Federation planets resided, and the Empire has methods of charting worlds. How else do you think the Republic plotted out their galaxy?

Citation needed.

In Dark Empire, the protagonists were searching around uncharted parts of space. Similarly, Kamino was stated to be outside of any hyperspace routes in TUF2 novel.

Dedicated hyperspace routes are absolutely critical to war efforst,

Yeah, they are. Without hyperspace routes, hyperdrive is slower, but that brings us back to the fact that all these counterarguments are simply delaying tactics. Even if it takes the Empire a decade to plot hyperspace routes or to plot Federation planets (ridiculous, Archer gave away the coordinates to Earth in first contact with an alien race) it simply becomes a matter of time.

furthermore hyperspace routes can be

So you're arguing that the Empire, part of a galaxy that's been using hyperdrives and hyperspace routes for tens of milenia, would have trouble plotting hyperspace routes, but that the Federation would be able to learn about the existence of hyperspace routes, find them and mobilize enough ships to mine/blockade them before the Empire can locate them?

mined,

SW ships in hyperspace would be unaffected by mines in real space. It's established in various novels such as Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor that realspace has no way of affecting hyperspace (presumably gravity extends to both). Even the Force only occasionally crosses both.

blockaded,

The Federation lacks indertictors.

and other wise rendered useless in any manner of ways (gravity being one of them, something the fedreation has mastered to a heavy extent).

It's a hilarious double standard when you think that the Federation can acquire knowledge on the weaknesses of hyperdrive and the location of hyperspace routes that the Empire doesn't know about, only to turn around and claim that the Empire won't know where Federation planets are.

You provide zero evidence and your claim, as such, is dismissed.

No, your entire argument rests on a massive stalling tactic which concludes that the only way the Federation can "win" (or not lose) is to stall, and as soon as they fail, it's only a matter of time.

Why can't the Federation strike back? - because warp drive is slow, there are too many SW planets (planets outnumber ships in this case) and too many are shielded.

You provide no data for the nature of the theater of war, you can make no claim for if the federation can or can not strike back till then. Just because warp drive is 'slow' means nothing if the federation encounters the rebellion who preceed the empire and grant hyperdrive to all the races out of the kindness of their hearts. Making up shit is real easy.

So the missiles will just not be intercepted because? Once again you fail even the most basic form of common sense... all of this are magical wankaton missiles with wankaton shields impervious to attack because you say so.

From Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor and the RotS novelization, we know that SW space projectiles can accelerate to relativistic speeds. I would invite you to show me a single instance in all of Star Trek when a relativistic object has been intercepted. Oh, no, you can't.

Indeed, when Sisko ordered fighters to be launched to try and provoke the enemy to break formation, starships were missing said fighters that were moving within 50 meters for strafing runs, and they weren't moving at any more than a few hundred meters per second.

So even if you decide to contest the canon statements in the first paragraph, even modern missiles (mach 5, mach 7) would be too fast for the Federation to reliably intercept. By reliably, the Federation might intercept some of them, but even a tenth getting through would be disastrous.

Baseless assumption is baseless.

So you're contesting that, hypothetically if the plan succeeded and the Federation's planets were inflicted with nuclear holocausts, the Federation's space stations and ships would still be in a position to wage war with all their planets effectively turned to slag? Or are you just arguing the point just for the sake of arguing the point?

Yes because you've clearly seen all of trek and know all their speed and reaction times, and politely ignore any thing that contradicts your vision of it.

Simply put, imho your entire post was full of nothing but BS. I mean low grade BS at that. This was low, even for you.

Answer honestly, have you seen all of ENT, TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and the movies? If not, maybe you should go watch some stuff first. For that matter have you seen all six movies, the clone wars cartoon, and read the thrawn triology at the very least in star wars... I have heavy doubts you understand ANY of the source material you reference, and you constantly seem to repeat nothing but same old arguments irregardless of how often they've been refuted.

Pick a single topic, don't pose useless scenarios, and actually open your mind up... maybe you'll find something more interesting than whatever on earth that pile of crap up there was supposed to be...


On a final note, I'm still waiting for your replies in several other threads, or have you conceded those points, accepted my accusations, or willingly decided not to provide evidence that I asked for?

[/quote][/quote]

Why are you Trekkies so terrible at understanding Burden of Proof? You never provided proof that they can intercept the missiles, you never provided proof that the Federation has more planets than Star Wars has capital ships, you never provided proof that they can construct mines that can take out ships in hyperspace. Your debating tactic revolves around saying "you have no idea how powerful Trek is!" rather than actually explaining how any of your ideas work.

[Praeothmin]

This:

Why are you Trekkies so terrible at understanding Burden of Proof?

And this:

Your debating tactic revolves around saying "you have no idea how powerful Trek is!" rather than actually explaining how any of your ideas work.

Made me laugh...

Coming from a guy who wouldn't know proof if it came up and destroyed all his bullshit arguments... Oh, wait... :)

[StarWarsStarTrek]

This:

Why are you Trekkies so terrible at understanding Burden of Proof?

And this:

Your debating tactic revolves around saying "you have no idea how powerful Trek is!" rather than actually explaining how any of your ideas work.

Made me laugh...

Coming from a guy who wouldn't know proof if it came up and destroyed all his bullshit arguments... Oh, wait... :)

Hey, you just proved my point. Instead of actually addressing the why and how: how my argument is wrong and where your imaginary proof is, you decide to vaguely state what amounts to "YOU SUCK".

[Praeothmin]

Why should I address anything when you fail at providing evidence for any of your bullshit claims?

[General Donner]

In Dark Empire, the protagonists were searching around uncharted parts of space. Similarly, Kamino was stated to be outside of any hyperspace routes in TUF2 novel.

Where in Dark Empire -- roughly? And there was only ever one TUF novel written, so I have no idea what you're talking about there.

[Admiral Breetai]

Why should I address anything when you fail at providing evidence for any of your bullshit claims?

what I don't get is why he ran away from me...and answered Trinoya I mean with me it's like arguing a Joe Pesci character I mean the outcome of a foregone conclusion but it's bestial and simple

Trinoya is allot more like Don Vito Corleon in terms of sophistication,.he'll very poetically and subtly demolish you..you'd think he'd opt to go down in a simple slug fest..not opt the route that makes him come off as childish and wildly inexperienced

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

You never provided proof that they can intercept the missiles.

WORF
Sir, according to my calculations,
a solar probe launched from either
the Klingon ship or the planet's
surface will take eleven seconds
to reach the star.
(beat)
However, since we do not know the
exact point of origin, it will
take us between eight and fifteen
seconds to lock our weapons onto
it.

If we give the planet a similar orbit around its sun to earths as it was obviously habitable that means the missile was going to travel around 150 million kilometers in 11 seconds.

Not that is some serious acceleration but even with a unknown point of origin the E-D would have been able to lock weapons on it in between eight and fifteen
seconds.

So assuming that they will kinda know that the missiles will be being shot at them from enemy ships i doubt they will have any trouble hitting missile moving a sublight speeds.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Why should I address anything when you fail at providing evidence for any of your bullshit claims?

What evidence did I fail to provide?

That Star Wars has nuclear weapons?



That Star Wars can hit targets from hundreds of millions of kilometers away? I already showed you that, and even modern rockets can do that. In fact, that's exactly what they do. How else did they send rovers to moving planets like Mars and Jupiter? Planets in predictable orbits are hardly a challenge to hit.

[Admiral Breetai]

you realize your using a comic book right

GTFO with that eu garbage

[sonofccn]

Not that I expect you to actually respond to me but what the hay :)

Feel free to show me a source implicating that the Federation has more than twenty five thousand planets, the fleet count for just imperial star destroyers in the Imperial navy.

Feel free to show me where it says Imperator/Imperial/whatever class.

A thousand systems left, out of an Empire that had once spanned a million. Two hundred Star Destroyers remaining from a fleet that had once included over twenty-five thousand of them.

I see the word Star Destroyer which includes the Venator, Victory, Gladiator and quite possible the Super Star Destroyer as well. These are, once again, a big portion of the Imperial fleet strength as well.

That's a silly claim. If the tactic I am proposing works is within their means (logistically, technologically, tactically and strategically), why can't they do it? The reason why it isn't used is because a situation in which it would work hasn't come up in Star Wars; civilization of a few thousand planets without planetary shields that the invader wants to destroy, not conquer. It's never shown up in Star Wars, so your point is moot.

Okay then. Picard sling shots around the nearest sun altering history so when the wormhole first opens in the starwars galaxy an armada of phase cloaked dreadnought style torpedo ships loaded with sunbursting missiles and equiped with slipstream drives destroy all traces of life in a lunch hour. All of which is completely possible and demostrated technology of either the Federation or a lesser power. Even slipstream was briefly functional by Voyager and given enough time to hammer out the kinks it should be gold. So do you want to keep going down this line of thought or realize why would a person/nation/planet would do it is a very important question then mere raw capability.

So your entire argument rests on the basis that the Empire doesn't know where the Federation planets are.

No. The totaly catching them off guard with an armada of warships which your entire planet hinges on. To be blunt by the time the Empire has A) realized there is an politcal entity called the Federation B) made inquiries to planet's locations and relatively strength and C) began preperation for an all out assault its highly likely the Federation has similarly made contact and learned they have a hostile threat on their border with an unusual stardrive.

In Dark Empire, the protagonists were searching around uncharted parts of space. Similarly, Kamino was stated to be outside of any hyperspace routes in TUF2 novel.

Details please.

Yeah, they are. Without hyperspace routes, hyperdrive is slower, but that brings us back to the fact that all these counterarguments are simply delaying tactics. Even if it takes the Empire a decade to plot hyperspace routes or to plot Federation planets (ridiculous, Archer gave away the coordinates to Earth in first contact with an alien race) it simply becomes a matter of time.

Well for starters the Empire is not the healthiest organization in the universe, ten years is half the time it existed more or less, as well without the element of surprise and after years of contact as you slowly chart space your moldy fleet will likely to be blown to atoms the instant it drops out of hyperspace by a wolfpack of Defiants than anything else.

So you're arguing that the Empire, part of a galaxy that's been using hyperdrives and hyperspace routes for tens of milenia, would have trouble plotting hyperspace routes

That is canon. Routes are crucial and must be mapped before their use and hope one travels anywhere near where you want to go or your stuck at a little crawl. This can not be handwaved away or merely bought off from a comercial star chart.

that the Federation would be able to learn about the existence of hyperspace routes, find them and mobilize enough ships to mine/blockade them before the Empire can locate them?

The discovery of hyperspace routes will likely follow after contact with empire and the merest exchanges of knowledge of each other. As to the finer points of blocking them can be learned from the Rebellion/any of the various unsavorary types who inhabite the far edges of the Empire's domain. A slightly easier proposal defending any routes leading to their worlds than the Empire who have to chart the entire course before they can use it properly.

From Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor and the RotS novelization, we know that SW space projectiles can accelerate to relativistic speeds.

Quotes please. As well we've seen torpedoes fire, including the space battle in ROTS, they don't move at relativistic speeds.

Indeed, when Sisko ordered fighters to be launched to try and provoke the enemy to break formation, starships were missing said fighters that were moving within 50 meters for strafing runs, and they weren't moving at any more than a few hundred meters per second.

So even if you decide to contest the canon statements in the first paragraph, even modern missiles (mach 5, mach 7) would be too fast for the Federation to reliably intercept. By reliably, the Federation might intercept some of them, but even a tenth getting through would be disastrous.

Here The Price

WORF
They've fired a missile directly
at the opening, sir!

PICARD
Destroy it.

WORF
Firing phasers.

77 ANGLE - VIEWSCREEN (OPTICAL)

Seeing the Ferengi torpedo... as the Enterprise phaser
hits it. It EXPLODES.

Proving a starship can hit something as small as a missile with little warning much less what your barrage would grant. Or hell take a look at Conundrum {TNG-5} and see what happens to the Lysian probes they sent after the Enterprise

[Mike DiCenso]

Why should I address anything when you fail at providing evidence for any of your bullshit claims?

What evidence did I fail to provide?

That Star Wars has nuclear weapons?



That Star Wars can hit targets from hundreds of millions of kilometers away? I already showed you that, and even modern rockets can do that. In fact, that's exactly what they do. How else did they send rovers to moving planets like Mars and Jupiter? Planets in predictable orbits are hardly a challenge to hit.

You done it again, SWST. You've not only failed to show that SW ships can hit anything from hundreds of millions of km away, but on top of that, you've shown us a picture with very sub-ICS firepower to boot.
-Mike

[Trinoya]

Feel free to show me a source implicating that the Federation has more than twenty five thousand planets, the fleet count for just imperial star destroyers in the Imperial navy.

You said every federation AND dominion planet. I don't have to prove shit on you, you made a baseless claim that can not be proven. We do not know how many planets EITHER side has, especially for the dominion, who control almost a full quadrant of a galaxy.

[Quote}
That's a silly claim. If the tactic I am proposing works is within their means (logistically, technologically, tactically and strategically), why can't they do it? The reason why it isn't used is because a situation in which it would work hasn't come up in Star Wars; civilization of a few thousand planets without planetary shields that the invader wants to destroy, not conquer. It's never shown up in Star Wars, so your point is moot.

It's like saying that Jedi can't block phasers because they've never blocked phasers before. It's stupid, because they've never been in such a situation in which they could.
[/quote}

"YES the tactic that we never saw used EVER is totally viable because they never had a situation where they needed to use it!" Save for that entire WAR WHERE THEY USE NAPOLEONIC TACTICS AND COULD HAVE JUST NUKED THE ENEMY TO DEATH APPARENTLY. You know, the one where FIVE MILLION SOLDIERS would bankrupt the republic.

You know what, no, I'll let you have this one. I'll let you. I concede permanently and henceforth to you that any tactics that either side shows a potentiality for will be used, and I'll even throw in that it has to be a demonstrable and verifiable tactic to avoid tech of the weeks still!

Oh yeah, the federation beats you down with their ablative armor transphasic torpedo time traveling powers... why? Well because they were never given an opportunity to really demonstrate their capability... they were never in a situation where they could really show off those tactics, what with one being an end episode and being a technology that would take months to refit their ships with... and the other one being a heavily regulated item that its abuse could have potentailly started a cold war.

Federation time travel = win... And don't worry, I'll let you have the empire totally WTFPWN with WANKATONS of power before hand... because federation time travel is a demonstrable science capable of being used on a run down, beat up, piece of junk, non science based, klingon bird of pray, and was used TWICE. A federation runabout should be able to effortlessly repeat the effects.

Dang, I have never been so happy to concede a point before.

So your entire argument rests on the basis that the Empire doesn't know where the Federation planets are. That means that, as soon as the Empire does figure out where their planets are, it's game over. The only way your stance can possibly work is to argue that the Federation can keep its planet locations secret indefinitely.

You know that can't happen. The dominion was well aware of where Federation planets resided, and the Empire has methods of charting worlds. How else do you think the Republic plotted out their galaxy?

*sigh* I was pointing out the absurdity of you not providing ANY information and jsut saying, "my side wins because "I" came up with a strategy herp derp." You took nothing into account and didn't justify anything. Now you use a trek civilization who had fully infiltrated the federation and use them as use for 'that's who they would know it was there, because the dominion knew they will know."

Do you even know how you sound right now?

On the plus side, thanks for the citation, that's a first.

Yeah, they are. Without hyperspace routes, hyperdrive is slower, but that brings us back to the fact that all these counterarguments are simply delaying tactics. Even if it takes the Empire a decade to plot hyperspace routes or to plot Federation planets (ridiculous, Archer gave away the coordinates to Earth in first contact with an alien race) it simply becomes a matter of time.

If it takes the empire a decade they starve to death in your situation. We know from several sources that going off hyperspace routes is a bad idea if you're not a jedi, and we know that circumventing hyperspace routes is difficult. Furthermore mapping them AND maintaining them is a laborious, dangerous affair.

Your entire debate hinges on them successfully doing this, undetected, and rapidly blitzing every planet of two of the major powers of the milky-way galaxy. It's ABSURD.

So you're arguing that the Empire, part of a galaxy that's been using hyperdrives and hyperspace routes for tens of milenia, would have trouble plotting hyperspace routes, but that the Federation would be able to learn about the existence of hyperspace routes, find them and mobilize enough ships to mine/blockade them before the Empire can locate them?

No, I'm going with what waas established by canon. You know, since there are apparently secret hidden hyperspace routes even right on top of their capital planet. Hell, TCW has an entire episode about a 'lost' 'ancient' hyperspace route. Heck, you don't even take into account how the empire gets into the star trek galaxy, which, for the record, is not an easy task with the entire galactic barrier...

SW ships in hyperspace would be unaffected by mines in real space. It's established in various novels such as Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor that realspace has no way of affecting hyperspace (presumably gravity extends to both). Even the Force only occasionally crosses both.

You forget about all the hyperpoints that are mined, blockaded, raided, and so on... You forget that in order to use certain hyperspace routes you actually have to get permission from their owners. You just ignore the fact that an entire WAR was fought and decided based on control of hyperspace routes on numerous occasions, to the point where jedi masters where sacrificed and 'grand battles the scales of which hadn't been seen since the day of the old republic' had to occur.

Hyperspace is no where near as impervious as you suggest.

The Federation lacks indertictors.

Yes, the federation who have mastered gravity and can PUSH MOONS won't be able to do what an interdictor does. Sure.

It's a hilarious double standard when you think that the Federation can acquire knowledge on the weaknesses of hyperdrive and the location of hyperspace routes that the Empire doesn't know about, only to turn around and claim that the Empire won't know where Federation planets are.

It's a hilarious double standard when you think that the Empire can aquire knowledge on the location of all of the federation and dominion planets, and suddenly map all the hyperspace routes needed to blitz all of their worlds at once, with tactics that they never use, resources that they've never been shown to build in quantity, and with prior galactic knowledge that they magically obtained... only to turn around and claim that the federation will be unable to make any form of effective defense even though there are dozens of possibilities for it.

No, your entire argument rests on a massive stalling tactic which concludes that the only way the Federation can "win" (or not lose) is to stall, and as soon as they fail, it's only a matte

r of time.
[/quote]

So you still provide almost zero evidence (save for the one citation, thanks, I appreciate it, really). You're dismissed, I don't have time for you when there are far better debaters at space battles who actually choose to challenge and debate correctly... I don't' think you've quite followed my posts over there but I tend to AGREE with pro-wars posters on various topics because they will actually debate to some degree in a reasonable and correct fashion. You're an exercise, a distraction, nothing more. I'm trying to get you to recognize the ERRORS of your posts and why they are terrible, but like so many before you you're stuck in a well of fanboyism of your side must win and any arguments to the contrary, no matter how they are presented, are wrong.

I'm trying to show you flaws in your debate style and you're basically being willfully oblivious to it...

From Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor and the RotS novelization, we know that SW space projectiles can accelerate to relativistic speeds. I would invite you to show me a single instance in all of Star Trek when a relativistic object has been intercepted. Oh, no, you can't.

Now I know you have never seen star trek. *sigh* I also know that you're absolutely talking out your ass now. This tactic isn't viable at all and you're just going to keep on going I bet.

I digress: They demonstrate a capability to intercept and engage at targets moving at FTL speeds in every single star trek series. ALL OF THEM. We have FTL missiles shown in Voyager and defeated, we have columbia intercepting enterprise and merging their warpfields. We have Romulan plasma torpedoes chasing down FTL targets in TOS.

Every time a ship fires on another ship while moving at warp they are engaging an object moving at FTL velocities. Hell, you can even transport to and from vessels moving at warp, to use one of my favorite quotes, "for a moment I thought we were in that wall," "for a moment.. you were."

The ability to engage a FTL target is trivial for star trek, who have dedicated FTL sensors.

Indeed, when Sisko ordered fighters to be launched to try and provoke the enemy to break formation, starships were missing said fighters that were moving within 50 meters for strafing runs, and they weren't moving at any more than a few hundred meters per second.

Irrelevant, the cardassins are a demonstrated faction to be woefully inferior to the federation counterparts. Without the dominion they were a joke to all fighting forces of the quadrant. This shows nothing of federation capability, which had the ability to pick off fighters with rapid precision as shown in the episode TNG: Conumdrum.

So even if you decide to contest the canon statements in the first paragraph, even modern missiles (mach 5, mach 7) would be too fast for the Federation to reliably intercept. By reliably, the Federation might intercept some of them, but even a tenth getting through would be disastrous.

*face palm* Yes, because it's not like enterprise uses missiles which were trivially shot down by another race just to show them how screwed they were. It's not like the phoenix could shoot weapons that were engaging at 40,000km ranges in a matter of seconds, it's not like you're just talking out your ass agai- oh wait... never mind on that last part.

So you're contesting that, hypothetically if the plan succeeded and the Federation's planets were inflicted with nuclear holocausts, the Federation's space stations and ships would still be in a position to wage war with all their planets effectively turned to slag? Or are you just arguing the point just for the sake of arguing the point?

By your own admission that any tactics would be used if they could demonstrably use them... it takes a single federation ship to travel back in time to render your arguments moot. Hell, do you even realize that there are races that the federation defeated that would be completely and utterly IMMUNE to the empire by sheer virtue of the empire existing in normal real space and being made of MATTER?

Why are you Trekkies so terrible at understanding Burden of Proof? You never provided proof that they can intercept the missiles, you never provided proof that the Federation has more planets than Star Wars has capital ships, you never provided proof that they can construct mines that can take out ships in hyperspace. Your debating tactic revolves around saying "you have no idea how powerful Trek is!" rather than actually explaining how any of your ideas work.

*bang head on desk* Yes, I never provided proof to statements you hadn't made yet, WOE IS ME. You haven't provided proof, statement, or reply to dozens of posts and accusations! You literally made statements in this very post that didn't exist before in your 'scenario' and then expected me to have preemptively provided evidence!? And you say "I" don't understand burden of proof.

You sir... are a loon.

But I digress: You have clear fanboyism to a rabid extent. I don't think you comprehend how often I disagree with people like Dark Star, and how often I agree with people over at space battles in regards to star wars. I don't think you can wrap your mind around the fact that if you told me, "you drop the empire on the federation, who wins" I will say "Empire" ever bloody time. I don't think you get that people like me aren't in this to have our side win. Were in it to have interesting debate and maybe uncover an interesting truth at some point.

Do I think the enterprise could beat down a star destroyer? Yes. Any day of the week. Do I think the ICS is crap? Yes, I do. Do I think that STAR TREK as a whole can defeat STAR WARS as a whole, even throwing the uber powers out? Yes, without question in any reasonable setting. The empire LOST to the rebellion, they lost to an inferior opponent. Bringing the federation in merely gives the empire ANOTHER concern, and it's one that taking the whole of star wars/star trek that could do considerable harm given the chance, and one that could put logistical strain on the empire.

But really... you know.. I don't think it will matter if I continue this line of thought and explanation to you, I don't.. So I'm gonna stop right now. I'll refute your points and expect counter evidence and counter examples as required.. but really, until you've addressed any thing correctly and reasonable I'm just gonna do this.

"Time Travel wins by your own examples of evidence and tactics."

There are better people to debate, I hope one day you will become one of them.

You done it again, SWST. You've not only failed to show that SW ships can hit anything from hundreds of millions of km away, but on top of that, you've shown us a picture with very sub-ICS firepower to boot.

Awww.. you beat me to it :(

[Mike DiCenso]

Awww.. you beat me to it :(

You can't win them all. Also, mind the insults. SWST may be annoying and obtuse, but calling him names won't change him in the least.
-Mike

[Trinoya]

Roger that, I'll be a bit more careful in my subsequent posts, didn't even realize I had done it that time around.