General Warning Tally for users...

[Admiral Breetai]

when he lied in his first days here I spent i think paragraphs pointing out his lies and correcting them bringing up specifics when he intentionally left them out and such like I did this so much he did that stupid challenge thread. I was the one who caught him using Fan videos from the Great Link originally and was very loud about it, I was the one that first spent entire sections of my posts nit picking him mercilessly when ever he fucked up lied or made shit up. I posted several times huge essays about what he did wrong in the ICS thread..other such threads..only to be ignored.

So your going to sit here and demand after constant excuses of "well your posts are too long" or "well you and SWST filibuster allot and I haz a life" and ontop of that sit here on a high horse telling me I don't get a free pass? first of all that's a complete exaggeration of events to the extent that it's nearly a fabrication I've received just as many warnings as SWST for insulting him as he has for lying and being an all around inept troll. the only reason why I haven't been banned yet is because I decided to take a step back from dealing with him when Trinoya Kor and Mike and yourself started taking a more active role in dealing with him because well I had a fanfic I wanted to focus on: The alternative was getting a vacation. but I took my bumps the mods have been firm with me and I've taken my hits.

as for your suggesting I do the job of the staff for them I thought about it you know I really did then JMS decided to abuse his powers and shield SWST because he felt we where being.. unsportsmanlike like and he speculating allot about the mans good intentions or what ever such inanity - basically committing what I consider a complete and abject betrayal of his duties as the Boss of all Bosses to protect a known troll due to his antics being less subtle then the frustration of members who see nothing being done.

as far as me jumping on Mojo's bandwagon you need to stop claiming that I never sock puppeted at all I in fact discouraged the guys antics and you can see that for yourself in this and other threads going back a few pages...I thought the loss of a member of quality if it meant taking a useless forum wrecker down with him was beneath the members here a tactic better suited to other forums. I never supported him until JMS did what he did, in that moment I realized pretty much that we had nothing to help us because and figured his actions had been justified...and they have been I have seen nothing from any staff member acting at all to give me any indication that this place deserves that type of effort from us...because certainly an obvious small forum threat like SWST is preferred to harsh language

to this day the only reason why any one got anything done was because you had to spend hours of your time documenting everything he did.

well I'm not going to do that any more I shouldn't have too it isn't my job..you don't go a forum that with a quarter of a million members like CBR or hell even NF into their vs section and see their mods asking people for such things..despite their work load being higher

in my posts I spent effort and time pointing out his BS every single time he lied I called him out on it..and to say this didn't happen is both offensive and unfair

simply put I played nice then nothing happened to I decided to play rough..certainly things got so bad other members lost it and sock puppeted. and now your giving me grief for allegedly not doing something that is my standard debating style? please and as for MOJO he did not decrease the quality of this forum at all he just pointed out to you how rotten things had gotten by breaking the rules - I never did this stop putting me in the same place

[Mr. Oragahn]

when he lied in his first days here I spent i think paragraphs pointing out his lies and correcting them bringing up specifics when he intentionally left them out and such like I did this so much he did that stupid challenge thread. I was the one who caught him using Fan videos from the Great Link originally and was very loud about it, I was the one that first spent entire sections of my posts nit picking him mercilessly when ever he fucked up lied or made shit up. I posted several times huge essays about what he did wrong in the ICS thread..other such threads..only to be ignored.

I did the same thing, on other subjects. Obviously, it was not enough. For some obvious reason, it is tiring for a moderator to go through all of that. It's possible that Swap just outran the mods here, putting up much more pointless material than the mods could go through.

as for your suggesting I do the job of the staff for them I thought about it you know I really did then JMS decided to abuse his powers and shield SWST because he felt we where being.. unsportsmanlike like and he speculating allot about the mans good intentions or what ever such inanity - basically committing what I consider a complete and abject betrayal of his duties as the Boss of all Bosses to protect a known troll due to his antics being less subtle then the frustration of members who see nothing being done.

Can't remember any of this so... and I know I may sound like a broken record... could you refresh ours memories and post some links, plu-eez? Throw me a bone, bro. You keep appealing to past events but no one here can even know where to look at, what to look for in particular.
Sorry for being blunt, but you're not really helping.
Plus, in case of gripes about the moderation, JMS even said that he had no issue with people disagreeing with his decisions and complaining about them, providing that manners were kept and points clear. This, notably to avoid the abuses as you found them on SDN and SBC.
I for one had some issues with Mike's acts regarding offtopics, and this was discussed very openly. I'm not a fucking alien. If I can do it, so can you.

as far as me jumping on Mojo's bandwagon you need to stop claiming that I never sock puppeted at all I in fact discouraged the guys antics and you can see that for yourself in this and other threads going back a few pages...I thought the loss of a member of quality if it meant taking a useless forum wrecker down with him was beneath the members here a tactic better suited to other forums. I never supported him until JMS did what he did, in that moment I realized pretty much that we had nothing to help us because and figured his actions had been justified...and they have been I have seen nothing from any staff member acting at all to give me any indication that this place deserves that type of effort from us...because certainly an obvious small forum threat like SWST is preferred to harsh language

I didn't say you sockpuppeted, but I certainly remember that you were very upfront at some point, and putting yourself at risk of warnings due to a behaviour which could have been easily avoided.

to this day the only reason why any one got anything done was because you had to spend hours of your time documenting everything he did.

well I'm not going to do that any more I shouldn't have too it isn't my job..you don't go a forum that with a quarter of a million members like CBR or hell even NF into their vs section and see their mods asking people for such things..despite their work load being higher

in my posts I spent effort and time pointing out his BS every single time he lied I called him out on it..and to say this didn't happen is both offensive and unfair

One would say that the other solution is to let a thread die, but the problem is that the troll can then do it again in another thread, and you practically can't debate anymore.
I'd rather use an Ignore List function, but the irony of it is that there's none here, while SBC has one but it's forbidden within the realm of versusdom. Class eh?

If the mods had been quicker and harsher in the way they'd deal with SWST, perhaps the troll would have been handled before things went out of control.

As far as I'm concerned, I know that from page 2 of his challenge thread, I'd have asked SWST to focus on less points and read what had been written on this forum, and that warnings would soon rail if he wouldn't cooperate.
The problem is two fold, though. First, this is a way I'd say is quite brutal in comparison to how matters were handled thus far. Secondly, I rejected any possibility at modhood and I'm fine with it, it's better that way.

[Admiral Breetai]

I did the same thing, on other subjects. Obviously, it was not enough. For some obvious reason, it is tiring for a moderator to go through all of that. It's possible that Swap just outran the mods here, putting up much more pointless material than the mods could go through.]

it's tiring for a mod to go through that? well absolutely I'm not disputing that I am how ever saying that becomes your duty

Can't remember any of this so... and I know I may sound like a broken record... could you refresh ours memories and post some links, plu-eez? Throw me a bone, bro. You keep appealing to past events but no one here can even know where to look at, what to look for in particular

i think I provided a decent list in this very thread a few times a few pages back and then in the darkstar thread if you want recent ones..but honestly I feel no inclination to go through my own posting history when the staff have repeatedly ignored it

Sorry for being blunt, but you're not really helping.

I kicked SWST's but in debates so hard he had a troll melt down which lead to his being more and more overt over time which forced the mods hands..it's a different tactic but it's not trolling and it's hardly negative

Plus, in case of gripes about the moderation, JMS even said that he had no issue with people disagreeing with his decisions and complaining about them, providing that manners were kept and points clear. This, notably to avoid the abuses as you found them on SDN and SBC.

and that becomes a corruption all of it's own as shown time and time again were JMS willingly and neglectfully allowed SWST to hide behind his rules specifically because he believed that cordial debating despite it being by an intentional troll is better then aggression

simply put this forum has officially crossed over into the other extreme and that becomes an abuse all of its own nature

I for one had some issues with Mike's acts regarding offtopics, and this was discussed very openly. I'm not a fucking alien. If I can do it, so can you.

I've made my discontent with certain choices very open and I appreciate preao and mike talking to me where JMS just ignored it entirely

I didn't say you sockpuppeted, but I certainly remember that you were very upfront at some point, and putting yourself at risk of warnings due to a behaviour which could have been easily avoided.

the situation got bad the lack of action forced Mojo to take certain actions I thought not justified until JMS bailed out SWST...while my conduct was unprofessional I now believe due to the utter inaction ordered by JMS to be sadly justified

One would say that the other solution is to let a thread die, but the problem is that the troll can then do it again in another thread, and you practically can't debate anymore.
I'd rather use an Ignore List function, but the irony of it is that there's none here, while SBC has one but it's forbidden within the realm of versusdom. Class eh?

I agree that simply moving to a different topic solves nothing but hear me out about the ignore list. it takes you out of the problem but every one else still has to deal with it..unless the entire section puts the guy on ignore..in which case the man may as well be banned

If the mods had been quicker and harsher in the way they'd deal with SWST, perhaps the troll would have been handled before things went out of control.

well if they were harsher he'd of been taking vacations longer. SWST is either gonna get ban hammered until he grows up or gets permed

]As far as I'm concerned, I know that from page 2 of his challenge thread, I'd have asked SWST to focus on less points and read what had been written on this forum, and that warnings would soon rail if he wouldn't cooperate.

problem is that his challenge threads always involved fanfiction I mean look at those OP's in mine and in yours and tell me that isn't either a troll post or an attempt at parody fan fiction? my tactic in that situation was to spend pages never agreeing to it at all but simply pointing out every dishonest instance and countering it which I did..I think well enough to merit a temp ban..just off that basis yet nothing was done.

The problem is two fold, though. First, this is a way I'd say is quite brutal in comparison to how matters were handled thus far. Secondly, I rejected any possibility at modhood and I'm fine with it, it's better that way.

it'd be more brutal? he seems pretty bent out of shape right now

[Mr. Oragahn]

Praeothmin's take on it is just to ignore the guy. All we complained about regarding Swap was very clear from the beginning.
Just say it's been dealt with, and move on. The problem is that it's not so easy when it "seems" like among a river of microwaved arguments, it looks like there's new stuff. And as usual, he'll say that you ignored him and so on. But I guess that all you have to do is say "OK prove it. Not prove that I ignored you directly just for the sake of it, but prove that I ignored the arguments while I said that we already dealt with them as they were nothing new and that you never used the search function to read what had formerly been written."
The problem with that is that it fails to prove that you're right when doing so. In fact, all you're doing is precisely playing the same game, when seen from outside. So the thing is that if you're going to debate a guy like him, you must be prepared. Prepared in knowing that you'll have to represent evidence, eventually under the form of links to older posts or threads, and eventually post a short summary of the points already covered in said posts and threads and have the bloke deal with them first.
Of course he could very well play the same game, so it will come up to the mods to decide who is really ignoring evidence and arguments, and at this point it still becomes nothing more than about a mod's opinion. In the absolute, who's to say that one is right or wrong, or has done his job in providing evidence and good arguments? No one, really. It's all a question of opinions and having moderators agree with you in the end.
To avoid any claims of mod power abuse, it has to be proved and made clear that you were right. That will always take time, unfortunately.

Also, ignoring a troll still makes for a boring discussion. On the average, there's nothing really new that's been posted in reaction to his claims. At best, we refined our views and detailed them even more.
Heck, according to the rules, SWST should have not been warned like he was, and he shouldn't have been banned.

You have some valid points, notably about the forthcoming bans if SWST doesn't change, and what would happen if he had been stuck on the Ignore List of several members.
I think that there's something that may need to be done about the rules. Some clarification may be needed.

[Admiral Breetai]

I've Debated trolls like him before I spent the better part of a year fighting off an invasion by SDN and a group of anime wankers known as the phenom brigade who allot of members did what SWST did..I've found brutality within the confines of the rules and an unwillingness to put up with their crap forces a complete melt down..This happened here though I believe Darkstar did a quicker job then I did at it.

Basically my stance on it is I'd much rather not do the work so I may as well do the other legal thing that's gonna result in pure frustration and much more overt trolling to force the mods hands..it's far more effective in that I don't need to dedicate hours of my life to doing the whole "prove it for them" route..

but as you said tis over with

[Mr. Oragahn]

I don't feel like doing it again, so I'll try something else as well. Ultimately, if we always refuse debate with one particular member, I hope it won't backfire. I know that this kind of crap could happen at SBC. In 2007, when I returned to SBC, I went solo against Leo1 and he pretty much put up the same kind of wall of BS. He wasn't even replying my points, just quoting some bits and posting one line long nonsense or those "and ?" repeatedly. So I put him on my Ignore List and told him to f*** off politely, but I noticed too late that it was forbidden, so I got a ban for that. I would hate this to happen here.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Except that Mr. Oragahn is not trolling. He actually built a detailed case against SWST, which is exactly what people needed to do in the first place. You could learn something from that kind of patience and perseverance, Mojo.
-Mike

Once again, can you please address your double standards:

1. You blame me for not posting evidence in the same post in which I make a claim (a very common and valid tactic in an informal debate; post claims with basic evidence, only spending time to elaborate on the math/calculations/sources/etc if prompted), even though you just did the exact same thing, and Breetai and various other posters do it all the time and you have no problem with this tactic.

2. You blame me for "refusing to provide evidence", and then ignore (literally, you have yet to actually respond to me on this yet) why you find responding to a request for evidence with "lol no" or "do you know how to read" is fine.

3. You accuse me of trolling, a serious accusation that implies an intentional attempt to post false information.

4. You took Mr. O's word that I forged a quote from the database. When I provided the quote and showed that he was wrong, you recanted my warning, but did not discipline Mr. O for his false accusation, and still take his long rhetoric as "well thought out" even though he has yet to apologize for bearing false witness.

5. You don't like it when I give arguments that "have been debunked again and again". Subjectivity is rampant in that statement; you are saying that because you think that my arguments have already been debunked, I cannot argue for them. This is an implicit appeal to popularity as well; or at least popularity in this board, as SDN is very pro Wars and both alt ST v SW and spacebattles have swung pro Wars.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Except that Mr. Oragahn is not trolling. He actually built a detailed case against SWST, which is exactly what people needed to do in the first place. You could learn something from that kind of patience and perseverance, Mojo.
-Mike

Once again, can you please address your double standards:

1. You blame me for not posting evidence in the same post in which I make a claim (a very common and valid tactic in an informal debate; post claims with basic evidence, only spending time to elaborate on the math/calculations/sources/etc if prompted), even though you just did the exact same thing, and Breetai and various other posters do it all the time and you have no problem with this tactic.

2. You blame me for "refusing to provide evidence", and then ignore (literally, you have yet to actually respond to me on this yet) why you find responding to a request for evidence with "lol no" or "do you know how to read" is fine.

3. You accuse me of trolling, a serious accusation that implies an intentional attempt to post false information.

4. You took Mr. O's word that I forged a quote from the database. When I provided the quote and showed that he was wrong, you recanted my warning, but did not discipline Mr. O for his false accusation, and still take his long rhetoric as "well thought out" even though he has yet to apologize for bearing false witness.

5. You don't like it when I give arguments that "have been debunked again and again". Subjectivity is rampant in that statement; you are saying that because you think that my arguments have already been debunked, I cannot argue for them. This is an implicit appeal to popularity as well; or at least popularity in this board, as SDN is very pro Wars and both alt ST v SW and spacebattles have swung pro Wars.

On point 4, which is the only one I feel concerned with, would you please remind me of when did I accuse you of having forged evidence, instead of merely cherry picking it?
If it's about the piece you pulled from the database, I merely proved that you totally cherry picked it. That, however, doesn't stop you, even as we type that, to claim that it still supports you. In case you don't get it, that's another proof of you ignoring indisputable facts. You used a segment of the database, and by actually linking to the entirety of it and by highlighting specific sections, I demonstrated that you ignored what didn't suit your position. I must understand that if you insist with your false accusations and lies, it will only be at your expense, unfortunately. Perhaps it would be time that you wise up a bit and drop that silliness of yours.

EDIT: I get why we're having such a problem over the databank. We both crossed paths without noticing. He cites the Superlaser entry, and I cite the Death Star entry.
It is the Death Star entry that likens hypermatter to fusion.
Swap has only the "raw power" reference going for him. That's flimsy, as Mike pointed out. It largely begun in another (shorter) thread, wherein SWST simply said that the official website/databank agreed with him. Praeothmin pointed out that the Death Star entry actually proved him wrong. So, while there's probably been some mess going on between me and Swap, what we see is that even back in that other thread, as old as mid-May, SWST was already given evidence that the databank/database gave a fusion core to the Death Star.
Good thing that he also denied that.

[Admiral Breetai]

oh sweet jesus you cannot be serious. He's back and he wont let up? the fuck

[Mike DiCenso]

1. You blame me for not posting evidence in the same post in which I make a claim (a very common and valid tactic in an informal debate; post claims with basic evidence, only spending time to elaborate on the math/calculations/sources/etc if prompted), even though you just did the exact same thing, and Breetai and various other posters do it all the time and you have no problem with this tactic.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Many, many times I've posted evidence and full up calcs. The only time I curtail such is when the person I'm debating with has already seen said calcs, and when I drop the hint of where to look, or provide a link, it's usually good enough. Usually, the other person is honest enough to acknowlege that.

As for me not providing calcs and evidence, you'd be pretty damn well hard pressed to find an example where I don't. Let me remind you with the examples here and here in the Slave Ship and ICS thread.

2. You blame me for "refusing to provide evidence", and then ignore (literally, you have yet to actually respond to me on this yet) why you find responding to a request for evidence with "lol no" or "do you know how to read" is fine.

No, that's not "fine". I certainly have never encouraged Breetai in his behavior, that is a construct of your own. In fact, Breetai has been hit with more warnings and multiple bans in his time here than is testament that what you say is just not true. And as with you, I can't peruse through every post of his to root out a possible violation.

So I'll put the same challenge to you as I did to Mr. Oragahn about your behavior. Start a file, collect every instance of violations you feel Breetai is guilty of, and then post it here. Praeo and I will review it, and if necessary seek JMS' opinion on it, if it's borderline, just as I did with Mr. Oragahn's file of your violations to see if it meets the standards.
-Mike

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I did provide an example of Breetai's behavior here near the bottom:

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... &start=180

I also explained to you how Mr. O accuse me of forging a quote about the superlaser. You:

1. Fell for it (more proof that you should really try and ask me for my side of my story first before giving me a warning or banning me, because quite frankly you are almost too easily swayed by whatever any random person says. When I go to read my PM box, I should be seeing a "SWST, here's what Mr. O accuses you of, is this true?" instead of a "JMS and I agreed with what Mr. O said, so you're given a warning! Teehee!")

2. Gave me a warning

3. Recanted my warning after I explained to you my side of the story (something which you should have asked for in the first place)

4. Failed to confront Mr. O over his false accusation

5. Failed to learn from this and read Mr. O's claims with a little more suspicion.

6. Failed to notice that Mr. O failed to apologize for his mistake.

[Admiral Breetai]

you little liar that post was debunked as you not having a leg to stand on my reply came after you across many boards refused evidence for lotr capabilities then decided to do something as silly "duurrr hurrr because you contribute allot to lotr topics your biased"

which considering your contributions to wars threads is especially hilarious and all

I have been warned and taken to the chopping block for my behavior as mike has pointed out so you continuing to harp on me like some sick little cyberstalker..is starting to become a completely pathetic baseless excuse

edit- you need to learn when to stand down you got caught beyond refutable doubt and you need to chill

[Mr. Oragahn]

I did provide an example of Breetai's behavior here near the bottom:

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... &start=180

I also explained to you how Mr. O accuse me of forging a quote about the superlaser. You:

1. Fell for it (more proof that you should really try and ask me for my side of my story first before giving me a warning or banning me, because quite frankly you are almost too easily swayed by whatever any random person says. When I go to read my PM box, I should be seeing a "SWST, here's what Mr. O accuses you of, is this true?" instead of a "JMS and I agreed with what Mr. O said, so you're given a warning! Teehee!")

2. Gave me a warning

3. Recanted my warning after I explained to you my side of the story (something which you should have asked for in the first place)

4. Failed to confront Mr. O over his false accusation

5. Failed to learn from this and read Mr. O's claims with a little more suspicion.

6. Failed to notice that Mr. O failed to apologize for his mistake.

As I said, what really happened is that we missed each other. The Death Star entry stuck in my mind, probably because at the time Praeothmin posted it, we were active over several threads, including the one wherein he posted it. It is so visible that in the Death Star output thread, when I literally posted a screen capture of the Death Star entry, you didn't say hey, that's not the one I'm talking about.
I mean, being so stuck into a discussion that one could miss which entry we were really talking about because we didn't pay enough attention over the name of said entry is something. For one, I noticed you said Superlaser twice over a total of several pages, and I said Death Star, and somehow we were not seeing how we were both wrong. But when I posted the entire screen cap of the Death Star entry, it's really a stretch that you wouldn't have realized, after reading it, that this wasn't the entry you were pointing at. And yet for some reason, you didn't.
I had not noticed that you were speaking of the Superlaser one. But by the time of me posting the screen cap, which you saw, you should have then realized that I wasn't talking of the same entry.
Which has me wonder if you ever bothered to read the evidence.
What is even more damning is that this is another proof of you ignoring plain evidence. The Death Star entry was quoted by Praeothmin around the 15th of May, and sealed the question of what hypermatter was, as far as the databank was concerned.

I'm also curious about your accusation of forgery. I recall accusing you of cherry picking your evidence from the databank's article, which is different. Since we had two different articles in mind, we should both apologize. But there's no excuse for what you've been doing thus far in ignoring the facts from the Death Star entry.

[Praeothmin]

Mr. O, SWST may not have been talking about the DS entry, but he still ignored it when it was presented, and shown to blow his example out the airlock...
With the DS entry, we can very safely say that the SL entry is indeed a figure of speech, and not actual commentary on the SL and its power...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

As I said, what really happened is that we missed each other. The Death Star entry stuck in my mind, probably because at the time Praeothmin posted it, we were active over several threads, including the one wherein he posted it. It is so visible that in the Death Star output thread, when I literally posted a screen capture of the Death Star entry, you didn't say hey, that's not the one I'm talking about.
I mean, being so stuck into a discussion that one could miss which entry we were really talking about because we didn't pay enough attention over the name of said entry is something. For one, I noticed you said Superlaser twice over a total of several pages, and I said Death Star, and somehow we were not seeing how we were both wrong. But when I posted the entire screen cap of the Death Star entry, it's really a stretch that you wouldn't have realized, after reading it, that this wasn't the entry you were pointing at. And yet for some reason, you didn't.
I had not noticed that you were speaking of the Superlaser one. But by the time of me posting the screen cap, which you saw, you should have then realized that I wasn't talking of the same entry.
Which has me wonder if you ever bothered to read the evidence.
What is even more damning is that this is another proof of you ignoring plain evidence. The Death Star entry was quoted by Praeothmin around the 15th of May, and sealed the question of what hypermatter was, as far as the databank was concerned.

I'm also curious about your accusation of forgery. I recall accusing you of cherry picking your evidence from the databank's article, which is different. Since we had two different articles in mind, we should both apologize. But there's no excuse for what you've been doing thus far in ignoring the facts from the Death Star entry.

1. I don't give a crap if so-and-so posted it somewhere on some day. I have no obligation nor the ability to go and search for every last link everybody gives me.

2. Your inability to say "I'm sorry" instead of going on a silly blame game proves my point.