About me supposedly ignoring evidence

[Jedi Master Spock]

I've moved a variety of posts to this thread.

Everyone please chill out. Thank you.

Breetai, I would rather a new topic go in a new thread. Since this seems more like an old topic, I've put in it an old thread.

Praeothmin, please ease up on the all-caps posts.

SWST, I'd like you to take note of the fact that Praeothmin is right; the E-E itself is about 700m long, the Scimitar is more than a kilometer wide from wingtip to wingtip, and that means that really visually short ranges are, in fact, typically multiple kilometers.

[Admiral Breetai]

You still have no link for your claim. I am asking you politely to go online and find a video supporting the incident. I am not denying that it happened, I simply need context.]

I gave you context prior to Anakin entering the fighter when the pilots bailed and made for the fighters and left a ground tank took out one..shielded and all



[

Since when do battle droids have decent intelligence or self preservation routines? They tried taking on Jedi in the films, when that's just as suicidal in those numbers as taking on a starfighter.

the heaping amount of dead Jedi at geonosis begs to differ

]
I used logic to explain why it's true. It's no more making it up than it is making up that Luke goes to the bathroom.

my capacity to care about your deductions about something that is not shown on screen..is non existent

[

Oh no, the fireball could easily have come from any oxygen inside the proton torpedo itself.

from thy rear thou doth pulleth this postulation my good man!

Unknown composition? There are only a few known asteroid compositions plentiful enough to fill up a giant asteroid field, and these that match the visuals would be either rock or nickel-iron.

based on what an understanding of our own galaxy in our own universe that lacks magic chi wielding bacteria?

No, he got damaged by a shot, but there is nothing indicating that it was a direct, unshielded and undiluted hit.

then you need to rewatch ANH

WHAT? Why are you dismissing evidence based on your own personal opinion? George Lucas says that it's canon; why do you think that you can trump the owner of Star Wars is what is canon?

all I care about is consistent feats no matter the fictional universe..and no matter the official canon policy

as far as I'm concerned nothing else matters

[

And your "not stated on screen = not true" claim is stupid. Are you to claim that all books are invalid because they're not on screen?

as far as I'm concerned the EU is an entirely separate universe that exists soley for fanatic fans who want wank and not a true star wars story...and for Lucas to poach ideas off of..so he does not have to waste time thinking shit up


[

Which is your excuse for the fact that you cannot refute your obvious double standard.

no that was me politely saying I will not entertain your nonsense at this point in time..

Fireballs can be a result of the oxygen of the proton torpedos. The Rebel and Imperial forces clearly used a type of torpedo without oxygen in it, hence the lack of explosions.

do you not see the lunacy in stretching the way you are to desperately cling to the EU? and the ICS?

Actually, there is. We know from ESB that Vader wanted to bombard Hoth from outside the system.

which could of meant (and likely so given what went down) keeping the main fleet out of the system and sending in heavy bombers or frigates to pull a nam

it does not mean anything..neither does a throw away line I don't even remember being in the film over rule actual on screen evidence

If it's dishonest and lying, can't you easily pick it apart and debunk it?

Be honest.

why yes, yes it is. The one sided beat downs that have been our debates have been proof enough of that..no simply I'm not wasting my time with this shit

Logic:

Ranges of a few hundred meters shown
Lando says that these ranges are POINT BLANK RANGE

no he does not..what he says is "engage those star destroyers at point blank range" we then see literally a eighteenth century style broad side...about twenty meters apart

Logically, if a few hundred meters are "point blank range", then by definition of the term "point blank range", typical distances are far higher, because point blank range = super close range.

no..especially when other battles clearly show that hundreds of meters is normal

And nowhere do I see fighters destroying ISD's, except for the fluke event with the Executor.

then your blind Akbar orders the rebs to focus fire power on the SSD in the background an ISD is blasted into several pieces and not by cap ship fire power as none was shown..fighters fighters

this is backed up by Y wings mulching separatist cruisers and what have you

So you're admitting that the slave 1 has kt to mt firepower?

I'm saying at best you can try and claim it..but seeing as fighters get torn apart by what amounts to suped up blaster bolts...it's pretty obviously an SM vs FL exemption type scenario

...

George Lucas supports the film-novels as canon. He owns Star Wars. You can't refuse evidence just because you don't like it.

no but I certainly can based on a lack of on screen appearence

Oh, if it contradicts primary canon then obviously it's out. But the film-novels are according to George Lucas primary canon, just a step below the films. The burden of proof is on you to disprove the canon film-novels, because otherwise they stand as complementing the films.

and yet they contradict the films...and thus not relevant at all

]

The reason why the film-novels were made, other than to make money, is to provide a different medium to tell the SW movies from, and also to elaborate on things such as character thoughts and SW ships, planets, etc that the movie lacks the time to go into. George Lucas approves of all of these novels, and they are even above TCW in official canon status.

and then he went all inconsistent to the films..where as the TCW is not

That's not what you claimed. Your argument was:

If there were kiloton weapons, the ship would be vaporized

The same argument applies to ST.

this is again a twisting of a post and not relevant

And you honestly think that the ICS has nothing to do with ST?

a thread that exists to debate the validity of a star wars databook for evidentiary purposes has about as much to do with Trek as a thread that exists to discuss the validity of Naruto or DC comics databooks for evidentiary purposes

now what you might of meant was that it it's relevant to vs debates that the thread creator created it for that purpose in which case it's not just ST it's any fictional universe and certainly should not factor into how you debate here..or your opinions other wise your allowing your desire for SW to win to cloud your objectivity

simply put what I think matters not..the topic demands we discuss SW and it's validity to the primary canon all other concerns and the agenda of others is entirely moot

Do you understand what point blank range is?

why yes, yes I do you do not

]A few hundred meters = point blank range according to Lando

nope try again

point blank range is the OPPOSITE of max range.

Therefore, a few hundred meters =/= max range, it's the OPPOSITE of max range. Max range according to the Empire Strikes Back can extend to beyond a system.

no it cannot because it never happened on screen


[

Hm, that's interesting.

formulating a new conspiracy theory with which to play the victim to JMS?

Since when is it a standard of evidence to only accept evidence that is told through the visual medium, and to no accept book evidence?

when the visual medium is the primary canon of which all others are derived of? ALWAYS

Am I not allowed to quote Stephen Hawking's book because it's not shown on screen?

..I had no clue steven hawking wrote star wars EU novels..that guy must wanna put some gold spinners on his chair or nas tanks or something.

seriously now..epic straw man is epic

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I gave you context prior to Anakin entering the fighter when the pilots bailed and made for the fighters and left a ground tank took out one..shielded and all

Still waiting for link. I'm not denying that it happened.

the heaping amount of dead Jedi at geonosis begs to differ

When outnumbered by thousands to one, yes. Eight battle droids tried taking on Qui Gon and Obi Wan, so you can hardly claim that their self preservation routines are that advanced.

my capacity to care about your deductions about something that is not shown on screen..is non existent

And you cannot dismiss reason by saying that you don't care. Debate the argument's points, not your personal opinion.

from thy rear thou doth pulleth this postulation my good man!

From some basic logic?

1. There were fireballs
2. The shields were still up
3. Fireballs only occur with oxygen

So connect the dots

based on what an understanding of our own galaxy in our own universe that lacks magic chi wielding bacteria?

Are you going to use this argument? That we cannot deduce anything because the SW universe is different?

Then why are you debating at all? By your logic, maybe those sub kiloton explosions are really teraton level explosions, because hey, it's a universe that has "magic wielding bacteria"!

So stop it with this. Those asteroids were clearly nickel iron or rocky asteroids, and both churn out calculations supporting my point.

then you need to rewatch ANH

No, you need to show me the link. There's something called burden of proof.

all I care about is consistent feats no matter the fictional universe..and no matter the official canon policy

as far as I'm concerned nothing else matters

But you're debating the facts, not your personal opinion. The facts say that the film-novels are canon. What reason do you have to throw the evidence out?

as far as I'm concerned the EU is an entirely separate universe that exists soley for fanatic fans who want wank and not a true star wars story...and for Lucas to poach ideas off of..so he does not have to waste time thinking shit up

The film-novels are not EU. They are telling the same story as the films, just in a different medium, and are approved by George Lucas.

no that was me politely saying I will not entertain your nonsense at this point in time..

Explain, Breetai, why you feel that you can choose to ignore any argument by "saying" that it's nonsense?

How would you feel if I dismiss all of your arguments as nonsense?

Sure, I may be wrong, but that's not the point. Even if I am wrong, you have to PROVE it, otherwise your word is just your unsupported opinion, even if it's true.

do you not see the lunacy in stretching the way you are to desperately cling to the EU? and the ICS?

No, my quote is from the canon ROTS novelization.

which could of meant (and likely so given what went down) keeping the main fleet out of the system and sending in heavy bombers or frigates to pull a nam

it does not mean anything..neither does a throw away line I don't even remember being in the film over rule actual on screen evidence

Notice how you are speculating, which is exactly what you don't want me to do?

We never see these tactics you describe on screen, so by your logic, you're just speculating.

why yes, yes it is. The one sided beat downs that have been our debates have been proof enough of that..no simply I'm not wasting my time with this shit

Which ANYBODY can say to an argument, no matter how good the argument is. I could say to a scientist that says that 1+1 = 2 that their shit is too bad to be worth bothering, and it would be just as valid as your statement.

You're going to laugh at this, because your ability to understand analogies is flawed. Whether or not you're right, you refuse to SUPPORT it, so you're claim is regarded as false. That's how debating works.

no he does not..what he says is "engage those star destroyers at point blank range" we then see literally a eighteenth century style broad side...about twenty meters apart

...that's exactly what happened. Is this supposed to be a rebuttal? You claimed that those ranges were max range, when Lando explicitly contradicts this by saying that it's POINT BLANK RANGE.

no..especially when other battles clearly show that hundreds of meters is normal

All of which are contradicted by G canon, the films, where Lando says that hundreds of meters is not normal.

then your blind Akbar orders the rebs to focus fire power on the SSD in the background an ISD is blasted into several pieces and not by cap ship fire power as none was shown..fighters fighters

No, you're wrong. The SSD's shields were lowered by firepower from the Rebel fleet, and then an A wing piloted suicide rammed into the bridge windows, causing a chain reaction that destroyed the ship by having it crash into the Death Star 2.

this is backed up by Y wings mulching separatist cruisers and what have you

That's not shown in the films. Your own policy goes against you.

I'm saying at best you can try and claim it..but seeing as fighters get torn apart by what amounts to suped up blaster bolts...it's pretty obviously an SM vs FL exemption type scenario

No, you see those in TCW. We see at least gigajoule level firepower in the canon films. Films > TCW.

no but I certainly can based on a lack of on screen appearence

No, George Lucas says that the novels are canon even if the films don't show it. That's the entire point of the novels; to show stuff that the films don't have TIME to show.

The film-novels COMPLEMENT the films. Both can be drawn from as evidence. It's only where there's a CONTRADICTION that the films gain precedence.

and yet they contradict the films...and thus not relevant at all

]

Prove that they contradict the films. For example, the film-novels state that Home 1 was rocked by proton torpedos...in the films, we see proton torpedos being used against capital ships. There is no contradiction.

and then he went all inconsistent to the films..where as the TCW is not

1. Prove that they're inconsistent the films
2. TCW has ships engaging at point blank range all the time, yet Lando and Ackbar agreed that it was suicidal. That's a contradiction
3. TCW has Anakin facing Dooku one on one and winning without the 'in the zone' zen Anakin had in the second part of RotS, yet in the films Dooku was confident to take on Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time. That's a contradiction.
4. In the films, the entire Naboo squadron was helpless against a single TF battleship, but in TCW fighters can take out said ships. That's a contradiction.
5. In the films, the characters look WAY different than in TCW, and sound different too. And not just because one's live and the other's animated.

this is again a twisting of a post and not relevant

It's not a twisting of a post until you can prove it.

a thread that exists to debate the validity of a star wars databook for evidentiary purposes has about as much to do with Trek as a thread that exists to discuss the validity of Naruto or DC comics databooks for evidentiary purposes

now what you might of meant was that it it's relevant to vs debates that the thread creator created it for that purpose in which case it's not just ST it's any fictional universe and certainly should not factor into how you debate here..or your opinions other wise your allowing your desire for SW to win to cloud your objectivity

simply put what I think matters not..the topic demands we discuss SW and it's validity to the primary canon all other concerns and the agenda of others is entirely moot

What's more annoying, breetai, is that you attempt to throw out the G canon film-novels when George Lucas says that they are more canon than TCW.

why yes, yes I do you do not

Then why did you claim that the point blank ranges shown were max ranges, when the two are the opposite from each other?

nope try again

"I said closer! Move as close as you can and engage those star destroyers at point blank range!

This is from the films.

no it cannot because it never happened on screen

But Lando said that it can happen on screen.

formulating a new conspiracy theory with which to play the victim to JMS?

No, trying to understand why you dismiss the film-novels when they are the second most canon evidence according to the official canon policy.

Or trying to dismiss anything that doesn't happen on screen, yet at the same time saying that it "could" be that Vader meant to send tie bombers that we don't see on screen.

when the visual medium is the primary canon of which all others are derived of? ALWAYS

1. So then what's the point of the books if they cannot be used at all?

2. "of which all others are derived of" includes TCW.

..I had no clue steven hawking wrote star wars EU novels..that guy must wanna put some gold spinners on his chair or nas tanks or something.

Clearly you miss the point.

seriously now..epic straw man is epic

No, your inability to grasp analogies is epic.


Conclusion:


1. Breetai thinks that the film-novels are not canon when George Lucas explicitly states that they are MORE CANON than TCW

2. Breetai feels this way because the film-novels are "derived from the films", even though this same thing applies to TCW too

3. Breetai thinks that a few hundred meters is "max range" when Lando explicitly states that it is "point blank range", and the two are the exact opposite of one another.

4. Breetai thinks that anything that is not shown on screen is false, and then goes on to speculate about Vader MIGHT having meant to send never seen tie bombers from beyond the system.

5. He ignores the implications of that statement:

a) Vader intended to attack the Rebels BEFORE they could lift their shields
b) By Breetai's logic, he'd send tie fighters from beyond the star system
c) Therefore, by Breetai's logic, tie fighters can move so fast they can travel several AU's FASTER than the Rebels can raise their shields or evacuate.

6. Breetai thinks that you can judge firepower yields from explosions sizes in a vacuum, as evident when his evidence is that you don't SEE gigaton weapons IN SPACE.

7. Breetai admits, surprisingly honestly, that he posted the wrong link, but then refuses to post the right one.

[Praeothmin]

3. Breetai thinks that a few hundred meters is "max range" when Lando explicitly states that it is "point blank range", and the two are the exact opposite of one another.

Bullshit!
Range still not proven by you...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Bullshit!
Range still not proven by you...

No, Breetai's claim is that a few hundred meters = max range in SW.

He uses the Battle of Endor as evidence.

However, Lando explicitly states that those ranges are POINT BLANK, which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of max range!

[Admiral Breetai]

When outnumbered by thousands to one, yes. Eight battle droids tried taking on Qui Gon and Obi Wan, so you can hardly claim that their self preservation routines are that advanced.

why would thousands to one matter? especially if you consider those stupid EU feats valid

And you cannot dismiss reason by saying that you don't care. Debate the argument's points, not your personal opinion.

yes I can especially when nothing was shown on screen

From some basic logic?

1. There were fireballs
2. The shields were still up
3. Fireballs only occur with oxygen

So connect the dots

nonsense

[

Are you going to use this argument? That we cannot deduce anything because the SW universe is different?

Then why are you debating at all? By your logic, maybe those sub kiloton explosions are really teraton level explosions, because hey, it's a universe that has "magic wielding bacteria"!

So stop it with this. Those asteroids were clearly nickel iron or rocky asteroids, and both churn out calculations supporting my point.

I'm not seeing any canon support


[

No, you need to show me the link. There's something called burden of proof.

when you claim that something happened on screen happened differently your arguing against source material burden of proof is on you

But you're debating the facts, not your personal opinion. The facts say that the film-novels are canon. What reason do you have to throw the evidence out?

a company policy is not a fact when it comes to vs debates...

[
The film-novels are not EU. They are telling the same story as the films, just in a different medium, and are approved by George Lucas.

including crap he was either too lazy too or unable to put in the films thus irrelevant

Explain, Breetai, why you feel that you can choose to ignore any argument by "saying" that it's nonsense?

because you where attempting a thread derail

How would you feel if I dismiss all of your arguments as nonsense?

that's what you have been doing since you joined to every one

Sure, I may be wrong, but that's not the point. Even if I am wrong, you have to PROVE it, otherwise your word is just your unsupported opinion, even if it's true.

no

]No, my quote is from the canon ROTS novelization.

another meaningless secondary source then


Notice how you are speculating, which is exactly what you don't want me to do?

We never see these tactics you describe on screen, so by your logic, you're just speculating.[/quote]

I must of missed where I postulated this..as a theory I intended to run with

Which ANYBODY can say to an argument, no matter how good the argument is. I could say to a scientist that says that 1+1 = 2 that their shit is too bad to be worth bothering, and it would be just as valid as your statement.

the difference is people with common sense can tell when such a dismissal is legit

You're going to laugh at this, because your ability to understand analogies is flawed. Whether or not you're right, you refuse to SUPPORT it, so you're claim is regarded as false. That's how debating works.

I understand analogies just fine yours tend to be pure fail

...that's exactly what happened. Is this supposed to be a rebuttal? You claimed that those ranges were max range, when Lando explicitly contradicts this by saying that it's POINT BLANK RANGE.

really? you mean like how prior to getting any where near them nothing happened? they never fired because they where clearly out of range? this being supported by the opening battle in ANH and ROTS where the grand majority of the fighting took place at hundreds to dozens of meters

further backed up by a brief exchange at point blank range which was literally two dozen meters apart

All of which are contradicted by G canon, the films, where Lando says that hundreds of meters is not normal.

not supported by on screen evidence

No, you're wrong. The SSD's shields were lowered by firepower from the Rebel fleet, and then an A wing piloted suicide rammed into the bridge windows, causing a chain reaction that destroyed the ship by having it crash into the Death Star 2.

at no point did we see a single capital ship fire on the SSD this never happened on screen it was never shown...thus irrelevant he clearly met fighters and anything in rangte

That's not shown in the films. Your own policy goes against you

.

same medium as the primary canon consistent with the primary canon

No, you see those in TCW. We see at least gigajoule level firepower in the canon films. Films > TCW.

oh look more wank

No, George Lucas says that the novels are canon even if the films don't show it. That's the entire point of the novels; to show stuff that the films don't have TIME to show.

the canon policies of the companies have no basis in our debate merely the consistent feats

The film-novels COMPLEMENT the films. Both can be drawn from as evidence. It's only where there's a CONTRADICTION that the films gain precedence.

not when they start making up shit that never happened on screen

Prove that they contradict the films. For example, the film-novels state that Home 1 was rocked by proton torpedos...in the films, we see proton torpedos being used against capital ships. There is no contradiction.

yes there is..namely fighters used them the medical frigate got off one so did wedge

oh and home one was never at any point fired on..on screen thus..not relevant

]1. Prove that they're inconsistent the films
2. TCW has ships engaging at point blank range all the time, yet Lando and Ackbar agreed that it was suicidal. That's a contradiction
3. TCW has Anakin facing Dooku one on one and winning without the 'in the zone' zen Anakin had in the second part of RotS, yet in the films Dooku was confident to take on Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time. That's a contradiction.
4. In the films, the entire Naboo squadron was helpless against a single TF battleship, but in TCW fighters can take out said ships. That's a contradiction.
5. In the films, the characters look WAY different than in TCW, and sound different too. And not just because one's live and the other's animated.

so in this heap of nonsense..you have a point?


this is again a twisting of a post and not relevant
[

What's more annoying, breetai, is that you attempt to throw out the G canon film-novels when George Lucas says that they are more canon than TCW.

oh look your trolling again

[

Then why did you claim that the point blank ranges shown were max ranges, when the two are the opposite from each other?

because the highest ranges ever shown in an SW film was the DS superlaser everything else was hundreds of meters

"I said closer! Move as close as you can and engage those star destroyers at point blank range!

This is from the films.

how does this change the fact that up until then neither fleet could open fire on the other due to being massively out of range

But Lando said that it can happen on screen.

no he didn't that's just you twisting his words

[

No, trying to understand why you dismiss the film-novels when they are the second most canon evidence according to the official canon policy.

Or trying to dismiss anything that doesn't happen on screen, yet at the same time saying that it "could" be that Vader meant to send tie bombers that we don't see on screen.

what the fuck does this have to do with our exchange about sith lords?

[

1. So then what's the point of the books if they cannot be used at all?

to make money for Lucas and his family..what does that have to do with vs debates and feats?

2. "of which all others are derived of" includes TCW.

TCw is a tv show on the same medium as the movies directly approved by lucas in one of his anti eu rampages

[

Clearly you miss the point.

no the point was you had no point

No, your inability to grasp analogies is epic.

you haven't gone this far in awhile thank you for the up coming lulz

Conclusion:


1. Breetai thinks that the film-novels are not canon when George Lucas explicitly states that they are MORE CANON than TCW

2. Breetai feels this way because the film-novels are "derived from the films", even though this same thing applies to TCW too

3. Breetai thinks that a few hundred meters is "max range" when Lando explicitly states that it is "point blank range", and the two are the exact opposite of one another.

4. Breetai thinks that anything that is not shown on screen is false, and then goes on to speculate about Vader MIGHT having meant to send never seen tie bombers from beyond the system.

5. He ignores the implications of that statement:

a) Vader intended to attack the Rebels BEFORE they could lift their shields
b) By Breetai's logic, he'd send tie fighters from beyond the star system
c) Therefore, by Breetai's logic, tie fighters can move so fast they can travel several AU's FASTER than the Rebels can raise their shields or evacuate.

6. Breetai thinks that you can judge firepower yields from explosions sizes in a vacuum, as evident when his evidence is that you don't SEE gigaton weapons IN SPACE.

7. Breetai admits, surprisingly honestly, that he posted the wrong link, but then refuses to post the right one.

In conclusion SWSt had a complete and total melt down again and posted a huge gigantic troll post..that was the last part of his thread in which he lied..distorted and made up claims

oh you still haven't been able to refute me on ranges...and as to the naboo scene

Breetai is so busy he hasn't even updated his fic..he currently lacks the time to waste rummaging through youtube

[Admiral Breetai]

Bullshit!
Range still not proven by you...

No, Breetai's claim is that a few hundred meters = max range in SW.

He uses the Battle of Endor as evidence.

However, Lando explicitly states that those ranges are POINT BLANK, which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of max range!

actually I use all six movies as evidence also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEvD9H59ADA

fucking two fifty to about two fifty eight..fighter that supposedly shoot and withstand mini nukes gets dusted by a god damn tank with no nuclear fire ball or any of that shit.....

maken a big fuss 'bout me like I;m as dishonest as you..check yourself son..we're miles apart

[Praeothmin]

Those asteroids were clearly nickel iron or rocky asteroids, and both churn out calculations supporting my point.

Are you talking about the Hoth asteroid field, the one filled with self-exploding asteroids (Asteroid chase scene, at 8:50)?

[Mr. Oragahn]

When looking for truth, take no substitutes.

'sploding 'steroids : gasoline rocks :D

The real deal.

[Admiral Breetai]

so much for clearly following conventional scientific understanding of asteroids..eh?