Slave Ship and ICS

[Mike DiCenso]

However generous that may be, it is still ten thousand times more than the power generation of the Enterprise.

It's extremely generous. Way more probably than it should be. But even if we grant those assumptions I made in the calculation excercise (calculations, which should have been furnished by you), it is not "ten thousand times more powerful" than the highest feats of power accomplished by at least two of the Enterprises. I've already given some examples that bracket lower to upper limits on power generation. The "Paradise Syndrome" limits the relatively small and primitive E-1701 of the 2260's to around 1e23 W to move an Earth's Moon-sized asteroid.

The stellar core fragment nudging from "The Masterpiece Society" already places a similar power requirement on the E-D.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Well, using Black Star as a model for a transport, and it's really about our only canonical reference for such a ship, we can estimate each of the three spherical tanks has a volume of 904,778,684.234 m^3. Pure water weighs in at 1,000 kg per meter cubed for 818,624,467,444,082,020,723.68 kg per container. Since there are 3 such containers on that class, 2,455,873,402,332,246,062,171 kg of water total.

Now, assuming that holds up, you divide that into 3.9e21 kg, and you find that the absolute upper limit for Star Wars in carrying capacity, assuming they had that many Black Stars available for use, and you can get away with about 60 ships. That's an upper limit here, mind you. So 1e25 J divided by 60 = 166,666,666,666,666,666,666,666.66 watts, or about the range of 1e22 to 1e23 W maximum power generation per ship.

This assumes raw energy expended here, when we know that mass lightning exists in the SW universe along with repulsor lift and other tricks, and it assumes the very biggest and best ships were available for the job.

So, after having bent ass-backwards to be generous, and get an extreme upper limit, the power generation can get into the 1e23 range for an SW ship, but that's really pushing it.
-Mike

There are slightly larger FSCVs than the Black Ice. Plus it actually holds 9 containers. However, we know that the liquid inside is not compressed.
With a density of 1 kg/m^3, each sphere can contain 110 e6 tonnes of matter.
I noticed in the Black Ice thread that there was a form of inconsistency in the size of the spheres and the ship's modules, but if we go with 9 spheres and 110 Mton each, that's 990 Mtons for the cargo only.
I need to stress that this ship is abundantly described as sluggish, and that's when it's moving in space (lots of the power goes to maintaining the fields). I can't tell how fast it would be able to leave a gravity field. A Loronar FSCV is capable of a linear acceleration of 7.7 g by my calcs in space. If this can also be directed upwards by the antigrav engines, then the ship could take off, but it would be a slow affair. The atmospheric pressure, friction and gravitational forces on the sphere would require more power to maintain their force fields.

Now, with a ship about a trillion tonnes heavy, assuming lift is achieved with almost perfect efficiency, that's 2.965 e13 W which are needed at 7.7g, at least. More would be needed if power was wasted. Repulsors are very efficient when the lift vehicle doesn't have to move (they don't seem to consume energy that much, considering how landspeeders or ATTs seem to hover there effortlessly while parked for some long periods), and when on the move up (accel) or down (brake) the system might be very efficient.
Still, I don't see the FSCV's repulsors requiring more than an order of magnitude more power to lift its fat arse off the planet when fully loaded, so that would be about 3e14 W.

[Mike DiCenso]

In "The Masterpiece Society", the E-D moved a mountain-sized stellar core fragment with a density of explicitly stated density of 10e14 tons per m^3.

If we use a pyramid model to calculate the area and use the lowest value for a mountain height (600 meters high) we get 72 million m3 absolute low end.

That's very conservative. The stellar core fragment as seen here:




It is not only mostly spherical in shape (quite logical given it's mass and gravitation), but also very large, at least 4 km in diameter based on the E-D flying close to it during the attempt to move it. At least 33.5 billion cubic meters. With a mass of 33,510,321,638,291,127,876,934,862.75 tons. Just multiply that by a thousand for kilograms and you'll see that the E-D moved a mass over a million times greater than the SW ocean is likely to mass out at, and all at once by herself.

Now for the really fun part. Let's assume that the E-D only applied a 1 m/sec^2 velocity change to the behemoth:

Conversions:

m = 33510321638291127876934862.75 ton metric = 3.3510321638291E+28 kilogram
v = 1 meter/second = 1 meter/second

Solution:
kinetic energy (K) = 1.6755160819146E+28 joule

Yup, the E-D spanks a fleet of the biggest container ships all by her lonesome.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

That's very conservative. The stellar core fragment as seen here:

I used the very minimum value for a mountain so SWST could not whine.

Oh and VERY nice work btw.

[Admiral Breetai]

really gentlemen I think being able to move a piece of a star like that requires more energy then..a whole fleet of ISD's or for that matter the energy required to render the surface of a planet uninhabitable

am i wrong?

[Mike DiCenso]

I still low-ended things here, guys. I used a 4 km diameter for the Big Glowing Thing of Doom. If you do some basic photometrics, you'll find that only about a quarter to one-third of the fragment's size is apparent in the second image with the E-D next to it. Meaning that the fragment is probably closer to 6-7 km wide. That would up the energy requirement to literally Death Star planet-busting levels, and I don't think I'm prepared to go there just yet!
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

I used the very minimum value for a mountain so SWST could not whine.

Oh and VERY nice work btw.

Oh, it'll all get ignored anyway.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

Oh, it'll all get ignored anyway.
-Mike

and you wont be able to do anything about it either what a shame

[Jedi Master Spock]

I still low-ended things here, guys. I used a 4 km diameter for the Big Glowing Thing of Doom. If you do some basic photometrics, you'll find that only about a quarter to one-third of the fragment's size is apparent in the second image with the E-D next to it. Meaning that the fragment is probably closer to 6-7 km wide. That would up the energy requirement to literally Death Star planet-busting levels, and I don't think I'm prepared to go there just yet!
-Mike

Yes, but we've seen Enterprises struggle to move less massive things before, as in "Deja Q" and "The Paradise Syndrome." Heck, Jupiter is only 2e27 kg.

The problem isn't that once in a blue moon, some source says something that lines up with the ICS. I'm willing to grant that spacelifting an ocean is the sort of incident that fits with ICS numbers. The problem is that it only happens once in a blue moon - and things like that also happen in Star Trek once in a while.

[Picard]

ICS is also only one (two, actually) book, yet rest of EU (and canon) is often ignored in favor of it ;-)

[Mike DiCenso]

I still low-ended things here, guys. I used a 4 km diameter for the Big Glowing Thing of Doom. If you do some basic photometrics, you'll find that only about a quarter to one-third of the fragment's size is apparent in the second image with the E-D next to it. Meaning that the fragment is probably closer to 6-7 km wide. That would up the energy requirement to literally Death Star planet-busting levels, and I don't think I'm prepared to go there just yet!
-Mike

Yes, but we've seen Enterprises struggle to move less massive things before, as in "Deja Q" and "The Paradise Syndrome." Heck, Jupiter is only 2e27 kg.

The problem isn't that once in a blue moon, some source says something that lines up with the ICS. I'm willing to grant that spacelifting an ocean is the sort of incident that fits with ICS numbers. The problem is that it only happens once in a blue moon - and things like that also happen in Star Trek once in a while.

I would take an exception here to one of the examples. The "Paradise Syndrome" counterexample doesn't help you that much in countering "The Masterpiece Society". Why? It uses a ship that is much smaller, and clearly far weaker in power generation than the E-D. All that says is that a ship from about 100 years prior to TNG is still very powerful despite the various technological advancements.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

I still low-ended things here, guys. I used a 4 km diameter for the Big Glowing Thing of Doom. If you do some basic photometrics, you'll find that only about a quarter to one-third of the fragment's size is apparent in the second image with the E-D next to it. Meaning that the fragment is probably closer to 6-7 km wide. That would up the energy requirement to literally Death Star planet-busting levels, and I don't think I'm prepared to go there just yet!
-Mike

Yes, but we've seen Enterprises struggle to move less massive things before, as in "Deja Q" and "The Paradise Syndrome." Heck, Jupiter is only 2e27 kg.

The problem isn't that once in a blue moon, some source says something that lines up with the ICS. I'm willing to grant that spacelifting an ocean is the sort of incident that fits with ICS numbers. The problem is that it only happens once in a blue moon - and things like that also happen in Star Trek once in a while.

I would take an exception here to one of the examples. The "Paradise Syndrome" counterexample doesn't help you that much in countering "The Masterpiece Society". Why? It uses a ship that is much smaller, and clearly far weaker in power generation than the E-D. All that says is that a ship from about 100 years prior to TNG is still very powerful despite the various technological advancements.
-Mike

The "Paradise Syndrome" rock is supposed to be half the size of Earth's moon. The stellar core fragment is thousands of times the mass of Earth. We have ample reason to conclude that 23rd and 24th century ships aren't that far apart.

But if I may go back to the thread's original topic, here's the actual reference in Slave Ship:

The oceans of Gholondreine-B had been sucked down to the last
molecule of saline liquid, then transported by a fleet of massive
Imperial freighters to an orbital catalysis plant near Coruscant. Economy
hadn't been the motivating factor-it was more expensive to ship that
amount of water than to synthesize it-but punishment had been. The
coastal and inland democracies on the planet's land masses had been
irritatingly slow, in the eyes of Emperor Palpatine, to divest themselves
of the last vestiges of allegiance to the old Republic. Now, beneath the
flat glare of cloud-purged skies, dust wound through the cracked and
empty streets of the deserted cities. Neighboring worlds in this sector
had received a valuable object lesson in how to respond to the Emperor's
commands.

The really odd bit is that it seems like the oceans were desalinated and recycled as drinking water for Coruscant. There doesn't seem much other information on this incident.

[Mr. Oragahn]

In "The Masterpiece Society", the E-D moved a mountain-sized stellar core fragment with a density of explicitly stated density of 10e14 tons per m^3.

If we use a pyramid model to calculate the area and use the lowest value for a mountain height (600 meters high) we get 72 million m3 absolute low end.

That's very conservative. The stellar core fragment as seen here:




It is not only mostly spherical in shape (quite logical given it's mass and gravitation), but also very large, at least 4 km in diameter based on the E-D flying close to it during the attempt to move it. At least 33.5 billion cubic meters. With a mass of 33,510,321,638,291,127,876,934,862.75 tons. Just multiply that by a thousand for kilograms and you'll see that the E-D moved a mass over a million times greater than the SW ocean is likely to mass out at, and all at once by herself.

Now for the really fun part. Let's assume that the E-D only applied a 1 m/sec^2 velocity change to the behemoth:

Conversions:

m = 33510321638291127876934862.75 ton metric = 3.3510321638291E+28 kilogram
v = 1 meter/second = 1 meter/second

Solution:
kinetic energy (K) = 1.6755160819146E+28 joule

Yup, the E-D spanks a fleet of the biggest container ships all by her lonesome.
-Mike

May you condense your numbers a bit please, with a more scientific nomenclature?
I understand the will to show accuracy, but the other form wouldn't hurt either.

Oh and what about the rationalization?
Since it's Trek science, are we sure that blue ball isn't made of some SF plasma?
If it's said to be dense (is it?), by how much then?

[Mike DiCenso]

May you condense your numbers a bit please, with a more scientific nomenclature?
I understand the will to show accuracy, but the other form wouldn't hurt either.

I did. Read carefully, please.

Oh and what about the rationalization?
Since it's Trek science, are we sure that blue ball isn't made of some SF plasma?
If it's said to be dense (is it?), by how much then?

Nothing stated in the episode would indicate what the stellar fragment is made up of one way or the others. As for the density, please refer back to what was written earlier in the thread:

In "The Masterpiece Society", the E-D moved a mountain-sized stellar core fragment with a density of explicitly stated density of 10e14 tons per m^3.

Nothing to quibble about, even JMS can't dispute it since he himself went into the episode in detail for his site. Originally Data gives the density in billions of kg per cubic centimeter.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

The "Paradise Syndrome" rock is supposed to be half the size of Earth's moon. The stellar core fragment is thousands of times the mass of Earth. We have ample reason to conclude that 23rd and 24th century ships aren't that far apart.

Actually, Spock describes the asteroid as "almost as large as your Earth's moon". So it is a significant majority of the Moon's mass, if not dimensions.

But if I may go back to the thread's original topic, here's the actual reference in Slave Ship:

The oceans of Gholondreine-B had been sucked down to the last
molecule of saline liquid, then transported by a fleet of massive
Imperial freighters to an orbital catalysis plant near Coruscant. Economy
hadn't been the motivating factor-it was more expensive to ship that
amount of water than to synthesize it-but punishment had been. The
coastal and inland democracies on the planet's land masses had been
irritatingly slow, in the eyes of Emperor Palpatine, to divest themselves
of the last vestiges of allegiance to the old Republic. Now, beneath the
flat glare of cloud-purged skies, dust wound through the cracked and
empty streets of the deserted cities. Neighboring worlds in this sector
had received a valuable object lesson in how to respond to the Emperor's
commands.

The really odd bit is that it seems like the oceans were desalinated and recycled as drinking water for Coruscant. There doesn't seem much other information on this incident.

Okay, so it is a real event. Unfortunately this does not help solve the timing issue, nor the exact methodology used to lift it from the planet. All we have is vague flavor text. If the Empire had that capability, why bother building a Death Star? Maybe because it takes too long, and people have plenty of time to escape?
-Mike