Star Wars Industrial supremacy fact or fairy tale?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Incorrect, as usual. The Federation had at least one thousand worlds as of TOS' "Metamorphosis" in the 2260's, and given the context of what Kirk said to Cochrane, we might assume that was only Terran-held worlds. You keep missing that part where Kirk tells Cochrane that "we're on a thousands worlds and spreading out" part Thus, if all more than 150 worlds in the TNG-era had at least that many colonies and outpost worlds, the Federation would have well over 150,000 planets, perhaps not including protectorates and associate members.

There is no reason to believe that Kirk was not referring to the entire Federation, since the Federation as a whole is a single, working government. Therefore, the TNG era Federation has 1000 planets including colonies and other sparsely inhabited planets.

Comversely, Tarkin's G-canon statement may include the totality of all the Empire's worlds, including all members, colonies, outposts, ect, and it being a G-canon quote, we can also safely assume it overrides all EU numbers as well. Furthermore, we know from the PT movies and their novelizations that the Galactic Republic had several tens of thousands of members, perhaps no more than 100,000 as per the TPM novelization. It would be a real stretch to assume that the Empire expanded in member worlds by a factor of ten or more in just 23 years.

"may"? The supposed contradiction between the sources can be a cause of the term member world; Tarkin might not have included minor colonies and outposts in his count. But since the Grand Moff likes to inflate the Empire's power, this is unlikely, so I'll keep the Empire's planet count at a million.

Kamino and it's parent star were erased from the Jedi Archives, but not the stars surrounding it. For him to get there, all he had to do was make a jump through a hyperlane that took him to within a few light years of the Kaminoan system, and from there short hyper jumps, and perhaps make use of information given him by his friend Dex to do the rest of the navigation from there. It's not like he was going to that region totally blind.

Why would there by mapped hyperspace lanes extending to anywhere within a few light years of Kamino? There were no other significant planets mentioned within the area.

This is a fallacy on your part. First off, you assume here that 1 clone trooper = 1 credit. Ergo, it must be wrong and so you attempt to ignore the George Lucas approved canon fact. What it boils down to is that we have no clue what the cost of a clone trooper is, how much is training, since unlike the Dominion's Jem'Hadar, they cannot be grown quickly, nor immediately given the knowlege they need to fight within just 3 days of birth.
So training the CTs, supplying them with equipment, transporting them from place-to-place, ect all has an associated costs with it like any real-life product you can think of.

If we are to take the ridiculous notion of a few million clone troopers bankrupting the Reupblic as fact, even when the Empire could build a 160 km battlestation without bankrupting itself, then we would have to rationalize that clone troopers are extraordinarily expensive, which therefore means that the Republic is not showing a low resource pool by being strained from them.

The Republic not being able to afford the Clone Army merely means that the Clone Army is very, very expensive. It does not judge the Republic's resources in relation to the Federation, because we do not know how the latter would afford it.

What we do know is that the Galactic Republic supplies and maintains a civilization consisting of quadrillions of civilians, and had done so for 25,000 years without going bankrupt.

Here you go again mixing and matching your sources as if they were all equally the same, which they are not. All the ICS books, the EU books, everything, except the movies, novelizations, and the screenplays are subordinate to the TCW series. You can't get around this. The Galactic Republic and the CIS were both facing bankruptcy, and were seeking additional loans from the Banking Clan to fund their war efforts.
[/quote[

Nowhere in the TCW is there a definitive number for the Clone Army, so there is no contradiction.

There is only the implication that a few million clone troopers cost a significant amount of money, which merely means that clone troopers are mighty expensive. Or, more specifically, the clone troopers, their training, growth, equipment, transportation and food/water/etc.

This again is all false. Tens of thousands of starships, and who knows how many starbases and other facilities built among the various factions may actually equal the first, if not the second Death Star in volume/mass. We certainly know from Star Trek 2009 that the Romulans were able to construct an 8-12 km long mining ship, and the 23rd century Federation when given reason to do so constructed the 700-1100 meter Constitution-class as well as at least a dozen other classes of starships of similar size.

It is possible that the absolute industrial production of the Federation, of every starbase, every ship, every repair, every building, every mall, etc, might equal the mass of the Death Star.

But then the Empire was also constructing star destroyers, corvettes and other small ships, researching into starfighter technology and other such things, building the typical routine of buildings, roads, commercial companies constructing airspeeders and the like, weapons, armor, space stations...and none of this was stated to have been inhibited or slowed by the Death Star.

The 160 km number is not false, it is based on all proper G-canon scalings of the battlestation. The 900 km number is based on an off-the-cuff statement by an ILM guy who hadn't even seen the script yet, much less anything else, and the same guy even states that the first Death Star was only "miles across". Anything else is dishonest cherrypicking.

The second Death Star was stated to have been considerably more powerful than the first. Its recharge rate was also increased by 2 OOM. How is this explained? Did the engineers of the Death Star suddenly have a huge leap forward that allowed them to hugely increase the Death Star's power generation in such a short time?

Logically, either the second Death Star is bigger, or Star Wars technology advances very quickly. If the second Death Star was more powerful than the first, it would have more power generation, meaning that power generation in SW got a leap forward in between ANH and ROTJ.

No one is actually arguing against it,

Did you read the thread title?

just against the over-inflated numbers from a group that is obsessed with their idea of what it should be and ignore all other contrary evidence, no matter what the source may be. Given the Galactic Republic's near-bankruptcy during the Clone Wars, we have no idea what it may have truly cost the Empire to build the Death Stars. That price may have been too high for far too little actual return.
-Mike

The Death Stars were constructed largely in secret. The Rebels needed their most skilled spies to learn of its existence. Later in its construction, the existence of the Death Star was becoming known, but many people still did not know of its existence. If the Death Star noticeably drained the economy, people would have noticed as spending decreased and taxes rose, but they didn't.

Meanwhile, the Federation in full war mobilization might have been able to equal a single Death Star with all of their industrial production, military and non military, throughout the entire domnion war, and even that is highly doubtful.

[Admiral Breetai]

The Galactic Empire had a million worlds according to Tarkin,

not stated in the films thus the novel line contradicts and they make terrible use of it

as many as 50 million or even 100 million according to EU sources.

invalid evidence contradicted by the films

The most planets the Federation has ever been stated to have is a thousand.

oh look your lying again

Which is impossible, because the government would have to have spent trillions of times more money every year just to feed its citizens. The idea that a galactic government cannot support 5 million clone troopers is impossible, because if that were, true, it would have collapsed long ago.

considering curoscant is so fucked up it needs to import water in your little fanfiction EU and in the main canon we see a vastly different picture in which poverty is rampant neglect is near universal and aside from more military and police nothing changed in the life of the average joe between governments due to just how shitty everything is

It's a logical fallacy, whoever came up with the 5 million clone army figure.

so you cry like a small child when we discount the EU but the moment an actual canon figure discounts your heavily biased unofficial source material you challenge it?

fucking hypocritical if you ask me

If 5 million credits severely stressed out the Galactic Republic:

five million credits? don't be silly

How did the Galactic Empire build the Death Star 2 in secret?

by mass leeching and it showed as the empires best consistent of a bunch of special ed troopers killed by Teddy bears and a dozen on screen star destroyers at most

How did the Republic build and maintain buildings, roads, medical services, etc?

they barely did and that's a completely irrefutable canon fact straight from the prequels

How did the Republic maintain and support a security force sufficient to police the galaxy?

you know damn well they didn't trying to claim this is akin to claiming the sky is green

How did the Republic grow to become the dominant power in the galaxy when, based on the 5 million clone army and being supposedly bankrupted from it, a 21st century nation state would have more resources than it?

this is never explained in the films...seriously don't cry because your favorite universe is retarded I'm an Sw fan and I don't I watch midgets whoop ass with laser swords

There are also contradictions in the clone army figures:

The Republic quickly ordered 1000 Acclamator star destroyers at the start of the war. Based on the crew of the Acclamators, that would imply >10 million clone troopers. Why clone troopers, you ask? Ironically, Karen Traviss confirmed that Acclamators are fully crewed by clone troopers.

this was never stated in the movies you using an EU source that contradicts the films is trolling

The Ladybrinth of Evil states that shock troopers had an omnipresent presence on Coruscant, meaning that the clones on Coruscant alone would have to literally be in the billions.

not supported by primary canon

In Inside the Worlds of Star Wars: Attack of the Clones, the GAR was stated to have millions of clone divisions.

not canon

The ROTS ICS states Grand Armies as if they were plural.

a heap of nonsense written by an ascended and demented fanboy deliberately doing it to masturbate his favorite series

The full scale war mobilization dominion/federation/etc. ship numbers do not volumetrically add up to anywhere near that of the Death Star 1 or 2.

no but casually reviving dead solar systems and engineering countless planets does and blatantly out does it

The 160 km figure for the Death Star 2 is false. Why? Because we know that the Death Star 2 was bigger than the first one, and the first one was 160 km. Therefore, the 900 km figure is accurate because the Death Star 2 was stated to be larger.

all I see is more fan speculation

...

You have no idea how fucking massive the Death Stars were, do you? The Empire built one in 6 months; or, depending on your sources, a few years, to 60% completion.

and this compares to a power who can engineer solar systems?

n the meantime, the Federation with several years of full scale war mobilization could churn out 5 digit ship numbers, most of which were smaller than 500 meters in length. Compared to a 160 km or 900 km battle station, constructed in secrecy in the outer rim in less than a year?

numbering in the high tens of thousands to *hundreds of thousands* each one barring shuttles with more fire power then a single ISD when their economy wasn't even remotely ready and they had prior to that leisure built

Can you honestly argue against Star Wars industrial superiority?

yes and we have been and you've done nothing to manage an affective counter

[
There is no reason to believe that Kirk was not referring to the entire Federation, since the Federation as a whole is a single, working government. Therefore, the TNG era Federation has 1000 planets including colonies and other sparsely inhabited planets.

nonsense he was speaking specifically about humanity and in the century since then we know from TNG they had been nearly constantly expanding

"may"? The supposed contradiction between the sources can be a cause of the term member world; Tarkin might not have included minor colonies and outposts in his count. But since the Grand Moff likes to inflate the Empire's power, this is unlikely, so I'll keep the Empire's planet count at a million.

show me film numbers supporting this

[

If we are to take the ridiculous notion of a few million clone troopers bankrupting the Reupblic as fact.

it is more factually correct then anything else in the EU deal with it

What we do know is that the Galactic Republic supplies and maintains a civilization consisting of quadrillions of civilians, and had done so for 25,000 years without going bankrupt.

if by supply you mean barely hold on where the vast majority of the planets outside the mid rim are gigantic ghettos and corruption and lawlessness is such an open fact that even on the capital they where virtually helpless then sure they supplied and maintained

but to people who aren't lying fanboys out to distort anything it means something vastly different

Nowhere in the TCW is there a definitive number for the Clone Army, so there is no contradiction.

no but there is in the movies a quarter of a million was seen as an overwhelming force

It is possible that the absolute industrial production of the Federation, of every starbase, every ship, every repair, every building, every mall, etc, might equal the mass of the Death Star.

really entire planets being manufactured in short order from dead rocks..and as of DS9 even stars may add up to the DS

it's pretty clear it absolutely reduces the construction of the DS to fucking amateurish childs place

But then the Empire was also constructing star destroyers, corvettes and other small ships, researching into starfighter technology and other such things,

yeah barely fielding more then a dozen ISD's to a critical battle certainly speaks volumes for how the DS2 didn't totally unhinge them LOL

building the typical routine of buildings, roads, commercial companies constructing airspeeders and the like, weapons, armor, space stations...and none of this was stated to have been inhibited or slowed by the Death Star.

only the film flat out shows planets looking exactly the same and in some cases even worse so no your using non canon info again and or lying

also I like how you ran from Mojo's post

The second Death Star was stated to have been considerably more powerful than the first.

cuz mon calamari cruisers are totally more durable then planets right? stop pretending...the only thing that made it more deadly was it's super laser could target ships who moved slow as fuck no less

If the second Death Star was more powerful than the first, it would have more power generation, meaning that power generation in SW got a leap forward in between ANH and ROTJ.

only this is contradicted by how stagnant the galaxy at large is

Did you read the thread title?

I am he isn't but he makes a point you guys completely and dishonestly massively inflate the numbers

Meanwhile, the Federation in full war mobilization might have been able to equal a single Death Star with all of their industrial production, military and non military, throughout the entire domnion war, and even that is highly doubtful.

a year prior to the war they revived and began engineering an entire star system including the rebirthing of it's star into a healthy young one

they have been masters at planetary engineering for centuries and are able to by TNG era colonize and engineer any world they want they fielded numerical odds against a super power who grew more soldiers in two years then shown during the clone wars to have ever existed...participated in battles that made endor look like a minor skirmish and kept maintaining those numbers

[Praeothmin]

Admiral Breetai, watch the language.
You can refute his arguments without being rude.
The next time I have to say it, you get a warning...
Thanks.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

not stated in the films

The novels are G canon.

thus the novel line contradicts and they make terrible use of it

Do you understand what the word 'contradict' means?

The novel is obviously going to say things that the movie does not explicitly state, because that's among the main advantages of novels; they contain more information than movies, whom have to do it in 2 hours and can't show the inner thoughts of the characters. Novels have several hundred pages and the ability to show the inner thoughts of characters. Tarkin was musing about the million worlds, of course the movies would not show.

invalid evidence contradicted by the films

Again, you do not understand what the word "contradict" means.

Opposition

negate: prove negative; show to be false
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

oh look your lying again

This is what I'm talking about; you claim that I am lying but provide NO PROOF that I am.

considering curoscant is so fucked up it needs to import water in your little fanfiction EU and in the main canon we see a vastly different picture in which poverty is rampant neglect is near universal and aside from more military and police nothing changed in the life of the average joe between governments due to just how shitty everything is

And the United States needs to import oil. Surely that means that it has no resources?

It's called interdependency, a common concept in real life.

so you cry like a small child when we discount the EU but the moment an actual canon figure discounts your heavily biased unofficial source material you challenge it?

fucking hypocritical if you ask me

I challenge it because whoever came up with the figure has no sense of scale and the numbers are not just ridiculous, they approach outright impossibility. The Galactic Republic would pay more money every second to maintain Coruscant alone than it would to maintain a few million soldiers.

The fact that you actually find this number to be believable is a testament to your ignorance of the sheer scale of Coruscant alone. The United States is massing a disturbing amount of debt in internal maintenance, which would include a reasonable portion of a continent and a decent amount of cities, some of which are pretty darn populated. Coruscant has the entire planetary surface covered in population densities that make New York City look like a farm, while reaching up several kms above ground level.

five million credits? don't be silly

Silly nitpick.

by mass leeching and it showed as the empires best consistent of a bunch of special ed troopers killed by Teddy bears and a dozen on screen star destroyers at most

Even if the Empire used up every single last bit of resources that it had to build the Death Star (which it didn't, as life around the galaxy went on as normal), that's still many OOMs beyond what the Federation has ever built in its history.

they barely did and that's a completely irrefutable canon fact straight from the prequels

Oh really? irrefutable, canon fact? Show me, then. Not just implications, but, as you say IRREFUTABLE FACT.

Please?

you know damn well they didn't trying to claim this is akin to claiming the sky is green

Oh really? So then what the fuck do you think was keeping order? Why was Nute Gunray visibly afraid of the Galactic Republic intervening? What stopped some random hutt crime lord from taking over the Republic? What dealt with criminals and robbers?

Magic?

this is never explained in the films...

It is. The fact that the Republic stood for tens of thousands of years proves that it's resources are massive. Otherwise, it would bankrupt itself and anarchy would emerge.

seriously don't cry because your favorite universe is retarded I'm an Sw fan and I don't I watch midgets whoop ass with laser swords

If you think that SW is retarded, why are you a SW fan?

this was never stated in the movies you using an EU source that contradicts the films is trolling

Your vocabulary is not really complete, isn't it? You have no idea what the word "contradict" means, so don't use words too fancy for you to understand.

Or better yet, get a dictionary or go on google to figure out what the word 'contradict' means.

not supported by primary canon

Actually, it is. Primary canon shows a world covered in a cityscape; a population of hundreds of trillions is implied. How do you think that the Republic polices this populace? Magic?

Before you state that it doesn't, why is everyone so orderly and civil when we see Coruscant? Why aren't there robbers and criminals around everywhere with nobody to stop them?

not canon

No, kid, it's C canon. It is a licensed part of the Star Wars canon.

a heap of nonsense written by an ascended and demented fanboy deliberately doing it to masturbate his favorite series

argumentum ad hominem

Invalid rebuttal.

no but casually reviving dead solar systems and engineering countless planets does and blatantly out does it

Sources please as to when the Federation revived dead star systems and engineered planets.

all I see is more fan speculation

All I see is a rebuttal that clearly indicates that you do not understand a word that I said.

Let me break it down for you: EVERYTHING involving SW vs ST is fan speculation, because you cannot know for sure whether or not ST would beat SW and vice versa. Just because it is speculation does not mean that it is false.

Did you know that Albert Einstein speculated the existence of relativity before he proved it?

Did you know that the existence of black holes was speculated before they were proven?

and this compares to a power who can engineer solar systems?

The Federation has never engineered solar systems.

numbering in the high tens of thousands to *hundreds of thousands* each one barring shuttles with more fire power then a single ISD when their economy wasn't even remotely ready and they had prior to that leisure built

...

"Hundreds of thousands" of Star Trek ships do not add up to the size of a Death Star by mass nor by volume.

yes and we have been and you've done nothing to manage an affective counter

Counter: The Death Star being built.

The Federation has never shown the industrial capacity to build a Death Star, not even with full war mobilization. This is an argument that you cannot refute.

nonsense he was speaking specifically about humanity and in the century since then we know from TNG they had been nearly constantly expanding

Oh really? Can you quantify this, then? Expanding how fast? A planet every year? Every decade?

show me film numbers supporting this

[

Trilogy novels > Clone Wars cartoons.

I bet you didn't now that, didn't you?

it is more factually correct then anything else in the EU deal with it

More factually correct? Oh really? So you think that Saxton's view of there being hundreds of billions of clone troopers is less realistic than a few million clone troopers?

You know, or should know, that a hundred billion army for a galactic war is FAR, FAR more realistic than a few million soldiers, which would be like having one man fight WW2. Yet you refute Saxton's stance, not because it's unrealistic, but because it supports Star Wars.

There is no reason to believe a far less researched and realistic million man theory that shows a disturbing ignorance of the scale of space over a far more realistic and with a greater knowledge of scale billion man army, other than one thing:

Because it supports Star Wars. You believe in the million theory because it supports ST, not because it's in any way believable or made by halfway sane people.

if by supply you mean barely hold on where the vast majority of the planets outside the mid rim are gigantic ghettos and corruption and lawlessness is such an open fact that even on the capital they where virtually helpless then sure they supplied and maintained

The fact that the people on said "lawless" (where, other than Tatooine? Naboo was pretty civilized) are still alive and haven't revolted is a far greater feat than making a few million soldiers.

but to people who aren't lying fanboys out to distort anything it means something vastly different

No, to people like you who have no sense of scale the million army theory makes sense. To logical people, it's ridiculous.

Even if the Galactic Republic only spends one credit a year on a civilian, a ridiculously stupid notion, that's quadrillions of credits it has to spend and has been able to spend for tens of thousands of years.

Even if the Galactic Republic only collected one credit in taxes every year (even though a main source of complaint was that the taxes were too high), that's quadrillions of credits in tax dollars that it gathers in tax dollars.

Therefore, every year, the Republic would have to spend more money than the Fedeation has ever spent in a quarter of its existence. If the Republic did not do this and were incompetent, it would have collapsed long ago.

The fact that the Republic is still around by the PT HAS to be because:

1. The Republic, up until its final years where it started falling apart, was a highly competent organization that supplied and maintained quadrillions of civilians spread across hundreds of thousands of star systems.

2. The Republic had enough money to do this.

no but there is in the movies a quarter of a million was seen as an overwhelming force

No, in the opening battle of Coruscant, at least hundreds of Republic star destroyers and ships were fighting the Seperatist fleet.

Guess what's even more impressive? The CIS attack was a surprise attack, meaning that the Republic fleet shown would only consist of ships orbiting Coruscant or in nearby star systems.

Each star destroyer holds enough volume for tens of thousands of clone troopers, hundreds of thousands if you really cramp them.

really entire planets being manufactured in short order from dead rocks..and as of DS9 even stars may add up to the DS

And you have sources to back this up, right?

it's pretty clear it absolutely reduces the construction of the DS to fucking amateurish childs place

...

The Death Star's mass, even if its average density was only equal to that of water and if we are to use the 160 km diamter figure, would be 2.14466058 × 10^18 kilograms.

That's over two quintillion kilograms.

That's the equivalent of:


Over 6.4 billion Empire State buildings
340 mount everests
Tens of quadrillions of humans

...and this is assuming that the Death Star's density is that of water.




But of course, to you, math and numbers mean nothing. The size of tens of trillions of Empire State buildings means absolutely nothing to you, nor does it register to you how foolish your idea that building trillions of Empire state buildings in under a year being "amateurish" is.

yeah barely fielding more then a dozen ISD's to a critical battle certainly speaks volumes for how the DS2 didn't totally unhinge them LOL

Hundreds, maybe thousands of star destroyers were present at the Battle of Coruscant in ROTS.

only the film flat out shows planets looking exactly the same and in some cases even worse so no your using non canon info again and or lying

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Your absolute ignorance in the logistics of real life is showing. Guess what? I went to DC two years ago (several times before then too). It was pretty impressive. Last year, I went there too. Gasp! It looked the same! The White House looked the same! The Washington Monument looked the same! Surely the government is spending no money on DC!

I saw pictures of Earth from space on various dates. It still looks the same from 1969. Gasp! Surely global warming must not be happening because it looks the same!

Your lack of appreciation for the money, time and people spent at maintaining just a single city is disturbing. Have you ever wondered what all your tax dollars go into? Have you ever wondered how much money it would take to maintain an entire galaxy for tens of thousands of years?

No, because you have no sense of scale.

also I like how you ran from Mojo's post

And you have no responded to 99.99+% of all posts that have been made in this forum, so surely you must be running away from 99.99+% of all posts.

cuz mon calamari cruisers are totally more durable then planets right? stop pretending...the only thing that made it more deadly was it's super laser could target ships who moved slow as fuck no less

Bald faced lie.

Opening text of Return of the Jedi:

Episode VI

RETURN OF THE JEDI

Luke Skywalker has returned to
his home planet of Tatooine in
an attempt to rescue his
friend Han Solo from the
clutches of the vile gangster
Jabba the Hutt.

Little does Luke know that the
Galactic Empire has secretly
begun construction on a new
armored space station even
more powerful than the first
dreaded Death Star.

When completed, this ultimate
weapon will spell certain doom
for the small band of rebels
struggling to restore freedom
to the galaxy....



How will you rationalize this bald faced lie of yours? Ignorance I can somewhat tolerate, but dishonesty? It's hard to ethically do so.

only this is contradicted by how stagnant the galaxy at large is

That's exactly what I said. Your reading comprehension skills weren't top of the class, were they?

I am he isn't but he makes a point you guys completely and dishonestly massively inflate the numbers

"You guys?" Are we warsies some sort of hive mind that react and think the same way?

a year prior to the war they revived and began engineering an entire star system including the rebirthing of it's star into a healthy young one

Sources please.

they have been masters at planetary engineering for centuries and are able to by TNG era colonize and engineer any world they want they fielded numerical odds against a super power who grew more soldiers in two years then shown during the clone wars to have ever existed...participated in battles that made endor look like a minor skirmish and kept maintaining those numbers

No, they didn't. The Federation in full war mobilization built tens of thousands of large warships. Put all of those warships together in mass, and they would be little more than a tiny speck compared to the Death Star, built in secret in under a year the second time around.

[sonofccn]

There are also contradictions in the clone army figures:

The Republic quickly ordered 1000 Acclamator star destroyers at the start of the war. Based on the crew of the Acclamators, that would imply >10 million clone troopers. Why clone troopers, you ask? Ironically, Karen Traviss confirmed that Acclamators are fully crewed by clone troopers.

1. Unless from an actual movie(script or novelization thereof) any contradictions are overruled in the five million bankrupt the GAR favor. Its hiearchy is higher, T compared to C IIRC, then the expanded universe.

2. Where is this number stated/ quote?

3. What type of Acclamators? Type I's are listed on wookiepedia as having a crew of 700, one thousand such ships do not push beyond it beyond 10 million clones.

4. in align with #1 knowing that there only millions of clonetroopers and they fully staff the ships such as the Acclamator severly hinders the numbers at the GAR's disposal not inflates clone numbers.

How did the Republic grow to become the dominant power in the galaxy when, based on the 5 million clone army and being supposedly bankrupted from it, a 21st century nation state would have more resources than it?

Massive liabilities as trillions reach retirment age? :) The point is its cannon that five million more clones, plus equipment and such, would bankrupt them. Period.

The Ladybrinth of Evil states that shock troopers had an omnipresent presence on Coruscant, meaning that the clones on Coruscant alone would have to literally be in the billions.

Quote if you please.

In Inside the Worlds of Star Wars: Attack of the Clones, the GAR was stated to have millions of clone divisions.

Quote? And if so then we have a contradiction and the inside of the world of star wars would lose as its C-cannon if I remember correctly.

The ROTS ICS states Grand Armies as if they were plural

Does it state a number to this "armies"? Otherwise this statment has no meaning.

n the meantime, the Federation with several years of full scale war mobilization could churn out 5 digit ship numbers, most of which were smaller than 500 meters in length. Compared to a 160 km or 900 km battle station, constructed in secrecy in the outer rim in less than a year?

Years plural, likely about five to get it about 50-60% finished at a frantic pace and likely needed 9-10 to get her finished fully which is on par for the 20 years building the first and learning all the ropes.

Can you honestly argue against Star Wars industrial superiority?

I don't have an issue with the Empire's greater industrial might, I just haven't seen evidence its as large as you think it is and I think Federation per ship firepower and ability help make up the differnce.

If the second Death Star was more powerful than the first, it would have more power generation, meaning that power generation in SW got a leap forward in between ANH and ROTJ.

Or a bigger reactor or they learned to more effectively control the hyperspace reaction etc.

Meanwhile, the Federation in full war mobilization might have been able to equal a single Death Star with all of their industrial production, military and non military, throughout the entire domnion war, and even that is highly doubtful.

I don't know they've built a lot of starbases some of them quite large.

There is no reason to believe that Kirk was not referring to the entire Federation, since the Federation as a whole is a single, working government. Therefore, the TNG era Federation has 1000 planets including colonies and other sparsely inhabited planets.

Except Kirk is speaking to an Earther who left before the Federation existed in refrence to colonization not holdings. Plus you know Kirk lived roughly a hundred years before the TNG era

[Admiral Breetai]

The novels are G canon.[

the only thing that matters are the films anything that's not in it is as far as I;m concerned bullshit

Do you understand what the word 'contradict' means?

I know that it isn't in the film thus invalid

The novel is obviously going to say things that the movie does not explicitly state, because that's among the main advantages of novels; they contain more information than movies, whom have to do it in 2 hours and can't show the inner thoughts of the characters. Novels have several hundred pages and the ability to show the inner thoughts of characters. Tarkin was musing about the million worlds, of course the movies would not show.

who cares? the primary canon is the films nothing else matters regardless




[

This is what I'm talking about; you claim that I am lying but provide NO PROOF that I am.

we have refuted you on that for awhile now since you started claiming it when you first joined which seemed to be to do nothing more then troll us

but if you will TNG era had massive massive unprecedented expansion and colonization efforts with numerous worlds that where not previously fed turf from the kirk era Fed turf in the tng era some of which having been since longer then any one save guinan and Picard had been alive

And the United States needs to import oil. Surely that means that it has no resources?

that's different from being so completely dependent on foreing sources that if trade ceased the entire country would loose half it's population in weeks

]It's called interdependency, a common concept in real life.

and when it's that bad you start approaching "falling empire" level of fail

]I challenge it because whoever came up with the figure has no sense of scale and the numbers are not just ridiculous, they approach outright impossibility. The Galactic Republic would pay more money every second to maintain Coruscant alone than it would to maintain a few million soldiers.

it's called fiction the writers have absolutely no need to adhere to realism or a sense of scale at all even if the fans bitch

deal with it

The fact that you actually find this number to be believable is a testament to your ignorance of the sheer scale of Coruscant alone.

actually I find the number absolutely appalling and am likely just as disturbed as you are if not more so since as a fan who has the come to realization that yeah one of his favorite series isn't any where near as powerful as people wish it was...it hits me pretty damn hard...pay attention to my argument a little more the sheer disparity in numbers and how low the troop number is, is the reason why I am arguing this it's canon and we are now faced with a galaxy wide civilization that *cannot maintain more then low double digit million troops* is fucking staggeringly terrible and low balling

the problem is that number supersedes everything until lucas makes moving with numbers on a larger scale

instead of calling me a dumb ass for not "understanding scale" (which I perfectly do hence the whole "nail in the coffin " thread) go bitch at who ever wrote that episode

[
Silly nitpick.

no that' a serious fucking error on your part one that torpedoes your entire analogy

Even if the Empire used up every single last bit of resources that it had to build the Death Star (which it didn't, as life around the galaxy went on as normal), that's still many OOMs beyond what the Federation has ever built in its history.

it went on as normal? it went worse and it was already fucking horrible to begin with...as for fed engineering

they are fully capable of restoring a former earth like planet from a ravaged hyper polluted wasteland to more or less stable in a matter of moments...and then begin reversing the damage almost immediately usually with a single ship one designed for exploration or combat not actual planetary engineering they then call the appropriate people and move along a few industrial replicators provided second hand by the Dominon for example completely stabilized then augmented the Cardassian economy and allowed them to suddenly begin fielding dozens of vessels

holly fucking shit even The USS Voyage in one ep did "insta global radiation purge " from matrix style death clouds too IIRC bright sunny day looking clouds literally in seconds and still had enough resources left over to give the planet the tools needed to begin gradually rebuilding their planet

this a fucking POS patrol boat scout ship stranded in the middle of nowhere with barely half a crew and almost constantly under resource strain and they manage to do in the span of two days more "massive scale" engineering then anything but the construction of the DS

Oh really? irrefutable, canon fact? Show me, then. Not just implications, but, as you say IRREFUTABLE FACT.

a good chunk of episode one was dedicated to espousing about how completely fucked up the republic had become and how completely unable to enforce their own laws where..to the extent that even their fucking currency the dominant god damn power in the galaxy for fucks sake..was completely useless in the damn outer rim territories

hell they were so completely bankrupt and inept that a private company managed to amass a god damn separate nation and military under their fucking noses

the degeneration poverty and over all corruption of the republic was the main reason siddy was able to do what he did why Zodd caught the boot

Oh really? So then what the fuck do you think was keeping order?

according to the fucking films the Jedi and barely by their own admission no less

Why was Nute Gunray visibly afraid of the Galactic Republic intervening?

Nute being a complete pussy and being largely not ready at the time at all for any kind of major military action who's entire gambit ran on his hooded friend and his political friends this is a very fucking bad comparison to add to this all the same under their fucking noses he assembles a fleet and takes over a fucking planet

What stopped some random hutt crime lord from taking over the Republic?

why in the blue hell would they even bother? they wielded virtually absolute power on Tatooine (jabba lording power even in the imperial era) and had run of any little corner their fat carcasses wiggled into and this was all the while the republic existed hell they pretty much had mini kingdoms with the added bonus of being able to as per clone wars make a profit off a half dead government who was gonna waste the resources to build an army any ways

what moron attempts to cease power in that situation openly? everything outside of a certain area seemed to be fair game for the fat bastards and they didn't even have to expend the resources maintaining a fleet..I mean hell it's not like the films even in the imperial era show that yes even your beloved Messianic Sidious couldn't even fully control his own back yard seeing as according to Han the in the films the highest canon Jabbas bounty hunter found the rebels looking for him faster then the empire sure did

What dealt with criminals and robbers?

lol no

Magic?

again the jedi local picket forces and barely

]

It is. The fact that the Republic stood for tens of thousands of years proves that it's resources are massive. Otherwise, it would bankrupt itself and anarchy would emerge.

that was never stated in the films

If you think that SW is retarded, why are you a SW fan?

because I really enjoyed the first three films the struggle the good vs evil the fact that Lucas didn't give a shit about half the things the EU tried to adress and simply wanted to tell a fun adventure story with Samurai/knights in space

and he did it god damn well and good lord if the battle of Endor isn't one of the top five best space battles of all time

Your vocabulary is not really complete, isn't it? You have no idea what the word "contradict" means, so don't use words too fancy for you to understand.

insulting the other guys intelligence? drop the faux intellectual attitude your coming off like that DBZ clown who tried to calc kid Buu's fire power up to trillions of times the DS yield and you are better then some one that stupid dude I'm being honest here

Actually, it is. Primary canon shows a world covered in a cityscape; a population of hundreds of trillions is implied.

not ever

How do you think that the Republic polices this populace? Magic?

security and the Jedi and barely

Before you state that it doesn't, why is everyone so orderly and civil when we see Coruscant? Why aren't there robbers and criminals around everywhere with nobody to stop them?

we don't see the crummy areas of the capital with the exception of a few scenes one of which had a fucking drug dealer hookers and illegal gambling so that's not helping you here the other showed well a really crummy diner in a really crummy part of town and a really fun fat guy. we see for the most part the zone where senators and the super elite of the Galaxy live and the elite monks in their ivory tower

simply we put thats like going to Miami and claiming coral gables or the bay area or star island represents the average neighborhood or claiming puerto Madero represents the average dwelling in BA and so on it's just retarded

No, kid, it's C canon. It is a licensed part of the Star Wars canon.

since it aint in the films I do not give a crap

argumentum ad hominem

Invalid rebuttal.

pretty sure this is trolling

Sources please as to when the Federation revived dead star systems and engineered planets.

in ds9 a scientist who's wife sisko humped resurrected a dead sun with a shuttle his research published

before that engineering and stabilizing stars was done iirc in TNG

All I see is a rebuttal that clearly indicates that you do not understand a word that I said.

that attitude may fly in certain cesspool forums but not with me

Let me break it down for you: EVERYTHING involving SW vs ST is fan speculation, because you cannot know for sure whether or not ST would beat SW and vice versa. Just because it is speculation does not mean that it is false.

you can determine a victor in a very definitive sense by going by feats

Did you know that Albert Einstein speculated the existence of relativity before he proved it?

Did you know that the existence of black holes was speculated before they were proven?

completely invalid analogy

The Federation has never engineered solar systems.

only it has at least twice and the last time it became publicly accessed tech

...

"Hundreds of thousands" of Star Trek ships do not add up to the size of a Death Star by mass nor by volume.

seeing as individually they can life wipe a planet it may as well

but like I said reviving dead stars and planets far out weighs the DS that and flooding your entire territory in every direction with anti cloak sats

Counter: The Death Star being built.

dead planets and solar systems

The Federation has never shown the industrial capacity to build a Death Star, not even with full war mobilization. This is an argument that you cannot refute.

they've been able to engineer mars like worlds into earth like planets for centuries actually in trek alternate history it's possible this tech came about in the fucking 90's

they revive dead stars they field thousands of planet killing ships etc etc

[

Oh really? Can you quantify this, then? Expanding how fast? A planet every year? Every decade?

during one TNG season off handed chitter chatter 'bout colonizing and expansion every other damn episode

with the big E herself participating in early seasons quite a few missions

Trilogy novels > Clone Wars cartoons.

only the film supports the toons so no..fuck that

I bet you didn't now that, didn't you?

since the films themselves don't show 90 percent of the high end nonsense your spewing...

More factually correct? Oh really? So you think that Saxton's view of there being hundreds of billions of clone troopers is less realistic than a few million clone troopers?

since it came from a higher canon and is supported by the actual films? absolutely

do i personally agree with it? not really does it matter? no not really

You know, or should know, that a hundred billion army for a galactic war is FAR, FAR more realistic than a few million soldiers, which would be like having one man fight WW2. Yet you refute Saxton's stance, not because it's unrealistic, but because it supports Star Wars.

no because 1 the guy is an ascended fanboy it's the same reason I discount Leob comic books as valid 2, it's not fucking supported by the films where as the tv show numbers are

There is no reason to believe a far less researched and realistic million man theory that shows a disturbing ignorance of the scale of space over a far more realistic and with a greater knowledge of scale billion man army, other than one thing:

absolutely problem is there is primary canon supports it and fiction especially sci fi and fantasy is not beholden to realizing or scale or accuracy at all

Because it supports Star Wars. You believe in the million theory because it supports ST, not because it's in any way believable or made by halfway sane people.

dude after the threads you make and the attitude you have you claiming this is lultastic

The fact that the people on said "lawless" (where, other than Tatooine? Naboo was pretty civilized) are still alive and haven't revolted is a far greater feat than making a few million soldiers.

only a good chunk of them did revolt when they finally found the fucking money and backers and resources to do so so whoops

No, to people like you who have no sense of scale the million army theory makes sense. To logical people, it's ridiculous.

I have a very good sense of scale I'm just relaxed enough to know that things like that have very little meaning in vs debates about fiction

Even if the Galactic Republic only spends one credit a year on a civilian, a ridiculously stupid notion, that's quadrillions of credits it has to spend and has been able to spend for tens of thousands of years.

not according to the films

Even if the Galactic Republic only collected one credit in taxes every year (even though a main source of complaint was that the taxes were too high), that's quadrillions of credits in tax dollars that it gathers in tax dollars.

which then proceeds to vanish and we get those small loosely populated shitholes staying the same for a long effing time

Therefore, every year, the Republic would have to spend more money than the Fedeation has ever spent in a quarter of its existence. If the Republic did not do this and were incompetent, it would have collapsed long ago.

and then the Feds go and make waayyyy better use of it..oh and they make suns from dead star cores ..regenerate old ones and so on

The fact that the Republic is still around by the PT HAS to be because:

1. The Republic, up until its final years where it started falling apart, was a highly competent organization that supplied and maintained quadrillions of civilians spread across hundreds of thousands of star systems.

none of this was shown in the films

2. The Republic had enough money to do this.

no it didn't

No, in the opening battle of Coruscant, at least hundreds of Republic star destroyers and ships were fighting the Seperatist fleet.

bullshit dozens as per the last time I saw this film and the last time you tried this tactic

Guess what's even more impressive? The CIS attack was a surprise attack, meaning that the Republic fleet shown would only consist of ships orbiting Coruscant or in nearby star systems.

I like how about thirty or so large ships and some several hundred to a thousand fighters represented a massive force by them

boy that'd be like "oh cute" levels to post Dominion war milky way

Each star destroyer holds enough volume for tens of thousands of clone troopers, hundreds of thousands if you really cramp them.

yeah we saw 'dem venators support that in the films

oh wait

And you have sources to back this up, right?

Mars Venus and Luna and Alpha Centuari all colonized well before the founding of the federation all of which had by the time of the founding of the federation continents with lush green forests and oceans (impressive seeing as they half assed it with mars for a long time)

in the TNG era oh god..they where settlen worlds and rappid fixen 'em like a kid on a lego set and Voyager and DS9 went full into broken land

The Death Star's mass, even if its average density was only equal to that of water and if we are to use the 160 km diamter figure, would be 2.14466058 × 10^18 kilograms.

That's over two quintillion kilograms.

That's the equivalent of:


Over 6.4 billion Empire State buildings
340 mount everests
Tens of quadrillions of humans

...and this is assuming that the Death Star's density is that of water.[

which while very impressive pales in comparison to suns and planets

But of course, to you, math and numbers mean nothing. The size of tens of trillions of Empire State buildings means absolutely nothing to you, nor does it register to you how foolish your idea that building trillions of Empire state buildings in under a year being "amateurish" is.

when compared to reviving suns? you bet your ass it is..now who's lacking a sense of scale bub

Hundreds, maybe thousands of star destroyers were present at the Battle of Coruscant in ROTS.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Your absolute ignorance in the logistics of real life is showing. Guess what? I went to DC two years ago (several times before then too). It was pretty impressive. Last year, I went there too. Gasp! It looked the same! The White House looked the same! The Washington Monument looked the same! Surely the government is spending no money on DC!

yeah no...your trying to claim the empire went on a vast Roman empire style building spree that really does not compare to what your bringing up now nor the actual state of things

I saw pictures of Earth from space on various dates. It still looks the same from 1969. Gasp! Surely global warming must not be happening because it looks the same!

Your lack of appreciation for the money, time and people spent at maintaining just a single city is disturbing. Have you ever wondered what all your tax dollars go into? Have you ever wondered how much money it would take to maintain an entire galaxy for tens of thousands of years?

I'm very well aware of the sheer cost of maintaining a city this has absolutely nothing to do with your prior claim

No, because you have no sense of scale.

pretty sure insulting a persons intelligence is against the rules here seeing as KSW gets constantly banned for it

And you have no responded to 99.99+% of all posts that have been made in this forum, so surely you must be running away from 99.99+% of all posts.

when I'm directly called out like that I always have replied so no..nice try

[

Bald faced lie.

Opening text of Return of the Jedi:

Episode VI

RETURN OF THE JEDI

Luke Skywalker has returned to
his home planet of Tatooine in
an attempt to rescue his
friend Han Solo from the
clutches of the vile gangster
Jabba the Hutt.

Little does Luke know that the
Galactic Empire has secretly
begun construction on a new
armored space station even
more powerful than the first
dreaded Death Star.

When completed, this ultimate
weapon will spell certain doom
for the small band of rebels
struggling to restore freedom
to the galaxy....

how in the blue hell does this contradict what I said? it's certainly more powerful a nigh invulnerable mammoth flying through space and casually one shotting planets and fleets

as opposed to just..worlds and far more competently defended? certainly is

again read what i typed

cuz mon calamari cruisers are totally more durable then planets right? stop pretending...the only thing that made it more deadly was it's super laser could target ships who moved slow as fuck no less

not contradicted by what you posted son especially since we never saw it blow up a planet on screen and have nothing but a dramatic statement as evidence

at worse i made an error though obviously that's not the case that's not lying that's just fucking up (which again going by the intro and lack of feats I didn't) let's try not to throw stones in glass houses

How will you rationalize this bald faced lie of yours? Ignorance I can somewhat tolerate, but dishonesty? It's hard to ethically do so.

wait a second now..I made a comment about how the DS2 was considered more potent specifically because it could punk out fleets as well as planets and nothing more...which isn't actually contradicted at all by the little excerpt you just tossed out...and you go and say this

you have been caught by myself and other posters OPENLY LYING CONSTANTLY using doctored or fake fan videos and attempting to pass it off as evidence and you have the fucking nerve to try and accuse me of this?

That's exactly what I said. Your reading comprehension skills weren't top of the class, were they?

keep racking up the bannable offenses son

"You guys?" Are we warsies some sort of hive mind that react and think the same way?

nope but DOW's may as well be

Sources please.

watch the medium of fiction your attempting to debug or is this going to turn into a repeat of "thousands of dudes" in voyager?

No, they didn't. The Federation in full war mobilization built tens of thousands of large warships. Put all of those warships together in mass, and they would be little more than a tiny speck compared to the Death Star, built in secret in under a year the second time around.

and yet individually they make ISD's look like crap and can do a poor mans version of the DS

[Admiral Breetai]

Admiral Breetai, watch the language.
You can refute his arguments without being rude.
The next time I have to say it, you get a warning...
Thanks.

well it's just fowl language I'm not actually doing to it to disrespect him also the posting system has some kinda error as no matter how I try to edit my reply at least half my post comes up all one mass quoted mess

[StarWarsStarTrek]

the only thing that matters are the films anything that's not in it is as far as I;m concerned bullshit

1. Then why the F do you use the Clone Wars Cartoon, which are LOWER than the movie-novels, as evidence, when, by your own words, only the movies matter?

2. Why should I follow your "as far as I'm concerned" opinion when the movie Novels are stated by Lucasarts to be G canon just below the movies?

I know that it isn't in the film thus invalid

Don't backtrack. You seem to misunderstand SW canon policy. Lower canon, or official sources, or whatever you want to call them, are only false if contradicted by higher canon. Look up the word, will you?

who cares? the primary canon is the films nothing else matters regardless

The books are ALSO primary canon, just a half step below the movies.

we have refuted you on that for awhile now since you started claiming it when you first joined which seemed to be to do nothing more then troll us

but if you will TNG era had massive massive unprecedented expansion and colonization efforts with numerous worlds that where not previously fed turf from the kirk era Fed turf in the tng era some of which having been since longer then any one save guinan and Picard had been alive

How is any of this quantified? Quantify "massive unprecedented expansion" and how it would go from 150 worlds to enough to rival a million worlds in a few centuries.

that's different from being so completely dependent on foreing sources that if trade ceased the entire country would loose half it's population in weeks

And you, of course, can prove this, right? Using only the movies, because in your own words:

"the only thing that matters are the films"

and when it's that bad you start approaching "falling empire" level of fail

On the contrary, New York City would starve if isolated from the rest of the world. The United States is self sufficient in necessities, but would suffer a massive economic collapse without outside trade.

it's called fiction the writers have absolutely no need to adhere to realism or a sense of scale at all even if the fans bitch

deal with it

By your own admission:

"the only thing that matters are the films"

The CWC is invalid, because it's not the films.

actually I find the number absolutely appalling and am likely just as disturbed as you are if not more so since as a fan who has the come to realization that yeah one of his favorite series isn't any where near as powerful as people wish it was...it hits me pretty damn hard...pay attention to my argument a little more the sheer disparity in numbers and how low the troop number is, is the reason why I am arguing this it's canon and we are now faced with a galaxy wide civilization that *cannot maintain more then low double digit million troops* is fucking staggeringly terrible and low balling

the problem is that number supersedes everything until lucas makes moving with numbers on a larger scale

instead of calling me a dumb ass for not "understanding scale" (which I perfectly do hence the whole "nail in the coffin " thread) go bitch at who ever wrote that episode

Show me evidence from the films, which is the only thing that you accept, that the clone army is only a few million men.

If anything, the films imply a far, far, far more massive army.

no that' a serious fucking error on your part one that torpedoes your entire analogy

No it doesn't. My analogy goes on to ask how they fed, raised, supplied, etc 5 million clone troopers, not credits, which logical deduction would have helped you to come to the conclusion that my "credits" line was a mistype.

it went on as normal? it went worse and it was already fucking horrible to begin with...as for fed engineering

Sources to support this please.

they are fully capable of restoring a former earth like planet from a ravaged hyper polluted wasteland to more or less stable in a matter of moments...and then begin reversing the damage almost immediately usually with a single ship one designed for exploration or combat not actual planetary engineering they then call the appropriate people and move along a few industrial replicators provided second hand by the Dominon for example completely stabilized then augmented the Cardassian economy and allowed them to suddenly begin fielding dozens of vessels

holly fucking shit even The USS Voyage in one ep did "insta global radiation purge " from matrix style death clouds too IIRC bright sunny day looking clouds literally in seconds and still had enough resources left over to give the planet the tools needed to begin gradually rebuilding their planet

this a fucking POS patrol boat scout ship stranded in the middle of nowhere with barely half a crew and almost constantly under resource strain and they manage to do in the span of two days more "massive scale" engineering then anything but the construction of the DS

I would like sources to back this up.

a good chunk of episode one was dedicated to espousing about how completely fucked up the republic had become and how completely unable to enforce their own laws where..to the extent that even their fucking currency the dominant god damn power in the galaxy for fucks sake..was completely useless in the damn outer rim territories

hell they were so completely bankrupt and inept that a private company managed to amass a god damn separate nation and military under their fucking noses

the degeneration poverty and over all corruption of the republic was the main reason siddy was able to do what he did why Zodd caught the boot

I don't think that you get what I was saying. There is no doubt that the Republic at the end of its days was incompetent, but what I was referring to was not whether or not it could control rogue factions like the TF; it's whether or not it could survive!

That is, the Republic had to have done maintenance on 100,000+ worlds, kept order on the streets (which is NOT equivalent to stopping big corporations), given medical support, etc.

Which it DID, because otherwise it would have collapsed on itself long ago without the need of Palpatine or his scheming.

An analogy to the Republic in its dying days would be the Roman Empire in its dying days; neither were very competent, but both were competent enough to SURVIVE...UNTIL a significant force brought them down. Both the Republic and Rome could feed their civilians and build roads.

according to the fucking films the Jedi and barely by their own admission no less

So 10,000 Jedi kept order on 100,000+ planets? You're kidding me, right?

The Jedi may have helped to keep order, but there would have to have been trillions of police officers around the Republic. A single Jedi could not keep order on a large city block, let along each Jedi simultaneously deterring crimes in 10 planets at once.

Nute being a complete pussy and being largely not ready at the time at all for any kind of major military action who's entire gambit ran on his hooded friend and his political friends this is a very fucking bad comparison to add to this all the same under their fucking noses he assembles a fleet and takes over a fucking planet

I don't think you get it, again.

Nute Gunray had a massive army of battle droids. Granted, he and his lackeys were moronic idiots when it came to military tactics, but if the Republic really had no police force or standing army, why would Gunray fear them at all? Why couldn't he just laugh them off, take his fleet over and crush Coruscant?

Because the Republic did have a police force sufficient to crush the Trade Federation at that point in time. The Seperatists had to create an alliance of several super large corporations and thousands of planets to challenge the Republic.

why in the blue hell would they even bother? they wielded virtually absolute power on Tatooine (jabba lording power even in the imperial era) and had run of any little corner their fat carcasses wiggled into and this was all the while the republic existed hell they pretty much had mini kingdoms with the added bonus of being able to as per clone wars make a profit off a half dead government who was gonna waste the resources to build an army any ways

Are you seriously claiming that the hutts could have taken out the Galactic Republic with utter ease if they had wanted to?

They couldn't have. The Trade Federation in TPM was scared of the Republic intervening, which is why they had to stall and bullshit the Republic Senate into arguing amongst each other.

what moron attempts to cease power in that situation openly? everything outside of a certain area seemed to be fair game for the fat bastards and they didn't even have to expend the resources maintaining a fleet..I mean hell it's not like the films even in the imperial era show that yes even your beloved Messianic Sidious couldn't even fully control his own back yard seeing as according to Han the in the films the highest canon Jabbas bounty hunter found the rebels looking for him faster then the empire sure did

The Empire didn't care about Tatooine.

lol no

So nobody did? Why, then, was the populace going amongst their daily lives? Have you seen what happens when there is no law? Have you seen video footages of Katrina when order breaks down?

Are you saying that (almost) every civilian in Star Wars just goes by on their daily business with no law enforcement to protect or police them?

again the jedi local picket forces and barely

So that you're saying that 10,000 Jedi simultaneously police 100,000 planets?

That each Jedi polices 10 planets at once?

And not major incursions; everyday bank robberies, murders, tax evasions, etc.?

When it takes a police force of several hundred thousands of police officers to police the United States alone?

Please, explain to me how one Jedi simultaneously keeps order in 10 planets at once and stops the MILLIONS of bank robberies, shootings, etc that will be going on EVERY SECOND?

that was never stated in the films

Obi Wan states that the Jedi had been the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic for over a thousand generations.

because I really enjoyed the first three films the struggle the good vs evil the fact that Lucas didn't give a shit about half the things the EU tried to adress and simply wanted to tell a fun adventure story with Samurai/knights in space

and he did it god damn well and good lord if the battle of Endor isn't one of the top five best space battles of all time

So then Star Wars isn't retarded. You should revise your claim to say that some aspects of Star Wars, maybe some select novels, are retarded.

insulting the other guys intelligence? drop the faux intellectual attitude your coming off like that DBZ clown who tried to calc kid Buu's fire power up to trillions of times the DS yield and you are better then some one that stupid dude I'm being honest here

1. Address the substance of my arguments. You misused the word contradict, which you clearly don't understand.

2. FYI, no DBZ warriors are ever star busters, but you probably already knew that. Not even with power scaling does even SSJ Vegito reach the power to bust even a dwarf star.

not ever

When Anakin in TPM arrives on Coruscant for the first time, the officer next to him states that the entire planet surface is covered in a city.

security and the Jedi and barely

Thank you; security and the Jedi. So there is indeed security, which presumably must be funded, correct?

There is no evidence that the Galactic Republic had trouble maintaining street order; obviously they had trouble stopping rogue corporations, but that has nothing to do with police competence and more to do with a corrupt Senate and a slow bureaucracy.

The US features about a 2.14 to 1000 police to civilian ratio. The Galactic Republic consisted of almost 100 quadrillion civilians. That means that there would have to be several trillion police officers.

Guess what? Those police officers do not get their weapons, clothing, training, etc from magic.

we don't see the crummy areas of the capital with the exception of a few scenes one of which had a fucking drug dealer hookers and illegal gambling so that's not helping you here the other showed well a really crummy diner in a really crummy part of town and a really fun fat guy. we see for the most part the zone where senators and the super elite of the Galaxy live and the elite monks in their ivory tower

If there was no order, then EVERYWHERE would have been crummy. The fact that we see orderly places with civil civilians means that there is indeed law enforcement.

simply we put thats like going to Miami and claiming coral gables or the bay area or star island represents the average neighborhood or claiming puerto Madero represents the average dwelling in BA and so on it's just retarded

That's not the point. You're making up the idea that the Galactic Republic was some sort of lawless, policeless land where criminals reined, but that obviously isn't true! There's a big difference between failing to catch rogue corporations and failing to police planets.

since it aint in the films I do not give a crap

Then why do you use TCW series? Sure, GL helped make them, but they ain't the films, right?

pretty sure this is trolling

What? Pointing out a logical fallacy is trolling now?

in ds9 a scientist who's wife sisko humped resurrected a dead sun with a shuttle his research published

before that engineering and stabilizing stars was done iirc in TNG

Details please? How dead was the star? What process was used? How long did it take?

that attitude may fly in certain cesspool forums but not with me

Because never once do you bother to refute my mathematical calculations or variable definings. You only say "invalid source!", even if I am using movie sources.

you can determine a victor in a very definitive sense by going by feats

That's exactly what I'm saying! If I am using feats to make calculations, do not just dismiss it as speculation, because everything in this topic is speculation. What you should comment on is whether or not it's good speculation.

completely invalid analogy

Why don't you explain HOW it is invalid?

only it has at least twice and the last time it became publicly accessed tech

Sources please.

seeing as individually they can life wipe a planet it may as well

How does that have anything to do with VOLUME and MASS?

but like I said reviving dead stars and planets far out weighs the DS that and flooding your entire territory in every direction with anti cloak sats

No it doesn't. Reviving dead stars and planets are both unquantifiable, unless if you provide specific examples, the time duration, the method used, the context, etc.

dead planets and solar systems

1. Sources please.

2. Reviving a "dead planet", aka bringing life back to it, has little at all to do with power generation or military prowess. It's about terraforming, which is not really important in a war.

they've been able to engineer mars like worlds into earth like planets for centuries actually in trek alternate history it's possible this tech came about in the fucking 90's

We aren't talking about alternate histories here. What you are referring to is terraforming, which is a completely different type of tech than planet busting.

they revive dead stars they field thousands of planet killing ships etc etc

[

Show me an example of them reviving a dead star.

during one TNG season off handed chitter chatter 'bout colonizing and expansion every other damn episode

with the big E herself participating in early seasons quite a few missions

What? In the 60's/70's/etc/even today, there is constant chit chat about colonizing Mars.

Does that mean that we're colonizing planets every day?

only the film supports the toons so no..fuck that

What? The films and their respective novels are BOTH the exact same story, told through a different medium. The respective novels are just a half step down from the books in canon status.

Meanwhile, the toons are T canon, lower than G canon.

since the films themselves don't show 90 percent of the high end nonsense your spewing...

On the contrary, the films show the Death Star moving towards Yavin at a rate matching 64 km/s. Do you know how much energy would be needed to do that? Or how tough the Death Star's structure would have to be to not disintegrate?

Not only that, but AT-AT's with their laser cannons on maximum firepower created a fireball visible from 17 kilometers away as a giant mushroom cloud AND were so strong that they shook a military base that was inside a MOUNTAIN!

since it came from a higher canon and is supported by the actual films? absolutely

do i personally agree with it? not really does it matter? no not really

I don't get it:

WHY do you accept TCW cartoon as canon, but not the movie films, which are G canon, above even TCW cartoons, and almost identical to the films? 90% of what is seen in the novels is also in the films, whereas none of TCW cartoons involve events from the films.

no because 1 the guy is an ascended fanboy it's the same reason I discount Leob comic books as valid 2, it's not fucking supported by the films where as the tv show numbers are

Yet you accept TCW cartoons, but not the movie novels, despite the latter being higher ranked in canon?

Why? Other than because you aren't willing to accept any evidence that would benefit Star Wars?

absolutely problem is there is primary canon supports it and fiction especially sci fi and fantasy is not beholden to realizing or scale or accuracy at all

What primary canon supports it? The only primary canon are the film-novels and the films. Nowhere in either is a million man clone army stated.

dude after the threads you make and the attitude you have you claiming this is lultastic

Explain how this is "lultastic" instead of just saying that it is and leaving it at that.

only a good chunk of them did revolt when they finally found the fucking money and backers and resources to do so so whoops

And the South revolted in the American Civil War, too. I suppose that the United States was lawless?

I have a very good sense of scale I'm just relaxed enough to know that things like that have very little meaning in vs debates about fiction

A sense of scale? You made the claim that 10,000 Jedi policed 100,000 worlds.

not according to the films

Actually, the films state that taxation is too high, implying that the Republic does indeed tax, and a lot at that.

which then proceeds to vanish and we get those small loosely populated shitholes staying the same for a long effing time

What? Vanish? Where? What source states this?

and then the Feds go and make waayyyy better use of it..oh and they make suns from dead star cores ..regenerate old ones and so on

The Federation doesn't use money. It does use resources, and its resources are significantly lower than the far larger Republic.

none of this was shown in the films

Yes it was, it just wasn't thrown in your face because the film was assuming that you could logically deduce things for yourself.

The Republic is still around, and has been for "a thousand generations." Therefore, it has survived for all that time.

no it didn't

In which case the movies would never happen, because the Republic would not have survived for "a thousand generations".

bullshit dozens as per the last time I saw this film and the last time you tried this tactic

Clearly, you did not use your eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cU0BYXlTuI

This time, pay attention to the ships in the background too.

I like how about thirty or so large ships and some several hundred to a thousand fighters represented a massive force by them

boy that'd be like "oh cute" levels to post Dominion war milky way

Again, rewatch it. There were thousands of ships, some so far away that they were only tiny dots.

yeah we saw 'dem venators support that in the films

oh wait

...

Go on google images and search up Venator. Many of these pictures are from the films.

As you can see, the size of the Venator can easily be calculated via scaling from starfighters, which can be scaled from human standing next to them.

We can tell that they are easily about a 1km long. Simple math can tell that human clone troopers can fit in vast numbers in them.

Mars Venus and Luna and Alpha Centuari all colonized well before the founding of the federation all of which had by the time of the founding of the federation continents with lush green forests and oceans (impressive seeing as they half assed it with mars for a long time)

in the TNG era oh god..they where settlen worlds and rappid fixen 'em like a kid on a lego set and Voyager and DS9 went full into broken land

How does terraforming a planet equate to the energy needed to scatter said planet's mass at escape velocity?

which while very impressive pales in comparison to suns and planets

Which is irrelevant, because the Federation never actually CREATES planets, they just terraform planets. Which involves cleaning the air, cleaning the surface, water, etc.

when compared to reviving suns? you bet your ass it is..now who's lacking a sense of scale bub

How much energy does it take to "revive" a sun?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA

How is this a logical rebuttal?

yeah no...your trying to claim the empire went on a vast Roman empire style building spree that really does not compare to what your bringing up now nor the actual state of things

I never claimed that. I claimed that the Empire would still be building roads and buildings, which EVERY nation state does. Not once did I imply that said construction would be visible in two decades, on planets that have been inhabited for milena.

A picture like this has no logical argument supporting it.

I'm very well aware of the sheer cost of maintaining a city this has absolutely nothing to do with your prior claim

Yes it does. You honestly think that the Republic survived for thousands of generations without ever building roads or spending money on maintenance. You fail to do this for a year to a city, and it starts to go downhill. For thousands of generations? Do you realize that modern skyscrapers are predicted to last no more than a few centuries before collapsing if they are not given maintenance, which COSTS MONEY AND RESOURCES?

pretty sure insulting a persons intelligence is against the rules here seeing as KSW gets constantly banned for it

Are you honestly saying that you NEVER insult my intelligence?

when I'm directly called out like that I always have replied so no..nice try

Oh really? How many people call you out? If, as often happens to me, 10 people call you out in a thread with long paragraph posts, do you respond to all of them, when many of their points overlap?

how in the blue hell does this contradict what I said? it's certainly more powerful a nigh invulnerable mammoth flying through space and casually one shotting planets and fleets

as opposed to just..worlds and far more competently defended? certainly is

again read what i typed

cuz mon calamari cruisers are totally more durable then planets right? stop pretending...the only thing that made it more deadly was it's super laser could target ships who moved slow as fuck no less

not contradicted by what you posted son especially since we never saw it blow up a planet on screen and have nothing but a dramatic statement as evidence

at worse i made an error though obviously that's not the case that's not lying that's just fucking up (which again going by the intro and lack of feats I didn't) let's try not to throw stones in glass houses

I stated that the Death Star 2 was more powerful.

You denied it, saying that it wasn't.

Yet, irrefutable canon evidence from the opening crawl of ROTJ blatantly states that the Death Star 2 was more powerful.

wait a second now..I made a comment about how the DS2 was considered more potent specifically because it could punk out fleets as well as planets and nothing more...which isn't actually contradicted at all by the little excerpt you just tossed out...and you go and say this

you have been caught by myself and other posters OPENLY LYING CONSTANTLY using doctored or fake fan videos and attempting to pass it off as evidence and you have the fucking nerve to try and accuse me of this?

No, you denied my claim that the Death Star 2 was more powerful when the opening crawl explicitly states so.

keep racking up the bannable offenses son

1. You insult me too. Practice what you preach. I will NOT insult you if you do NOT insult me, but you DO, often times behind my back.

2. Why did you refute my claim...saying EXACTLY what my claim was saying?

nope but DOW's may as well be

See? You complain when others insult you, yet at the same time imply that said others are sub human and part of a hive mind.

watch the medium of fiction your attempting to debug or is this going to turn into a repeat of "thousands of dudes" in voyager?

I did watch it. I did not find your evidence, so I am asking for sources.

and yet individually they make ISD's look like crap and can do a poor mans version of the DS

That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about industrial production capabilities, and the mass and volume of the Federation fleet, built over several years in full scale military mobilization, does not add up to even 1% of the Death Star 2, built to 60% completion in under a year in secret.

[Admiral Breetai]

1. Then why the F do you use the Clone Wars Cartoon, which are LOWER than the movie-novels, as evidence, when, by your own words, only the movies matter?]

because Lucas produced the film he was involved with it and was involved with the series itself because it's more supported then the throw away lines in the novel

2. Why should I follow your "as far as I'm concerned" opinion when the movie Novels are stated by Lucasarts to be G canon just below the movies?

don't but I'll keep using the debate style I was taught too one that served me so well against years of repeated SDN attempted jihads

the absolutest primary canon view

Don't backtrack. You seem to misunderstand SW canon policy. Lower canon, or official sources, or whatever you want to call them, are only false if contradicted by higher canon. Look up the word, will you?

I could barely manage to care about mister Chee's little canon tree the clone wars film and series are lucas new pet project they have more from him than anything else besides the films and that video game that seems to piss every one off

when the tv series starts to high end itself over what the movies show I'll dismiss it just as quickly

The books are ALSO primary canon, just a half step below the movies.

yet they have lines not supported by the films

How is any of this quantified? Quantify "massive unprecedented expansion" and how it would go from 150 worlds to enough to rival a million worlds in a few centuries.

150? try thousands...the first contact line was an error especially when you have things like the human only colonies numbering in the thousand plus with the feds having so much territory in their little dominion that they literally run into entire colonies of thousands to tens of thousands of people small colonies that just fell through the cracks

seriously at least two entire episodes where devoted to that "holy shit we forgot we founded you guys" and another showed civilians have enough resources to just uplift themselves and park it on a planet with out even bothering for federation aid..despite how hostile said world was

And you, of course, can prove this, right? Using only the movies, because in your own words:

sense this was a side track about the EU what's this "ah gotcha" bit?

On the contrary, New York City would starve if isolated from the rest of the world. The United States is self sufficient in necessities, but would suffer a massive economic collapse without outside trade.

sure but it would recover the impression given in the context was no such thing would happen

By your own admission:

"the only thing that matters are the films"

The CWC is invalid, because it's not the films.

it isn't contradicted by the movies at all and has allot of TLC by goergie

Show me evidence from the films, which is the only thing that you accept, that the clone army is only a few million men.

If anything, the films imply a far, far, far more massive army.

no they don't considering we saw tens of thousands of clones in the facility...and hundreds on Geonosis the prime ministers comment about "we can have a quarter of a million more ready within the year" suggests numbers in the high hundreds of thousands to million or so...was a devastating tally

when you consider how terrible the droids where and the quality vs quantity tone many of the battles take in the films...both in the pre and post fall eras this isn't all that out there

No it doesn't. My analogy goes on to ask how they fed, raised, supplied, etc 5 million clone troopers, not credits, which logical deduction would have helped you to come to the conclusion that my "credits" line was a mistype.

then why harp on it?

[

Sources to support this please.

people lived in constant fear...most of the places we saw outside of bespin and the capital looked like it got worse

I would like sources to back this up.

get some booze and watcher voyager...if you can stand it theres an entire episode to Voyager cleaning up a past fuck up on earths part

the star stuff happened in TNG when one scientist IIRC tried to revive a dying star and it either failed on the first try (resulting in a nova) or worked I forget which

the resurrecting of a dead star occured in DS9 and it took all of several seconds

I don't think that you get what I was saying. There is no doubt that the Republic at the end of its days was incompetent, but what I was referring to was not whether or not it could control rogue factions like the TF; it's whether or not it could survive!

it didn't

That is, the Republic had to have done maintenance on 100,000+ worlds, kept order on the streets (which is NOT equivalent to stopping big corporations), given medical support, etc.

and in the nicer "suburb" type worlds they certainly did every where else?

Which it DID, because otherwise it would have collapsed on itself long ago without the need of Palpatine or his scheming.

why all the corrupt powers of the galaxy had no reason to let it fall when they where able to make a killing off its propped up half dead corpse

An analogy to the Republic in its dying days would be the Roman Empire in its dying days; neither were very competent, but both were competent enough to SURVIVE...UNTIL a significant force brought them down. Both the Republic and Rome could feed their civilians and build roads.

for the bulk of a century or two the Roman empire was hauling ass out of territories some of which they previously held for nearly a thousand years some longer...it was divided in half with one side only maintaining power due to at one point a pope..and his ability to function as a diplomatic arm of the western empire...and at various other points support from the east and copious bribes that bankrupted and crippled it even further..their technology had regressed they're military units barely existed and they could barely control their own back yard...at one point having to move imperial capitals...

this anology if you wish to use it..definitely supports my theory much more then anything else

So 10,000 Jedi kept order on 100,000+ planets? You're kidding me, right?

Lucas being a fan of pulp era comics...had absolutely no problem with an adherence to anything sane..or as you say "a sense of scale"

The Jedi may have helped to keep order, but there would have to have been trillions of police officers around the Republic. A single Jedi could not keep order on a large city block, let along each Jedi simultaneously deterring crimes in 10 planets at once.

trillions? they can barely affording millions of soldiers the republic held onto its nice little rich worlds but the rest seemed to be one huge ghetto

[

I don't think you get it, again.

Nute Gunray had a massive army of battle droids. Granted, he and his lackeys were moronic idiots when it came to military tactics, but if the Republic really had no police force or standing army, why would Gunray fear them at all? Why couldn't he just laugh them off, take his fleet over and crush Coruscant?

because Gunrays little robots got taken out by a local picket force made up of..a half dozen volunteers and a ten year old boy...playing top gun

oh and a bunch of primitives with magical glowing Jello

even if you have a really crappy military or sector police they're going to be much better trained the Jar Jar Binx the magical lizard Jamaican and his armies hordes of Jello balls and far better equipped then the Naboo fighters
\
if Gunray could barely handle a local picket force and I mean barely numbers getting hurled at them in a meat grinder only worked barely and Anakin still blew the control ship to hell..

what makes you think they'd of stood a chance against an actual well organized well trained force how ever small or under funded?

Because the Republic did have a police force sufficient to crush the Trade Federation at that point in time. The Seperatists had to create an alliance of several super large corporations and thousands of planets to challenge the Republic.

because sidious wanted a war..not a mafia style hostile take over which would of been totally doable do to the massive financial disparity between sides

[

Are you seriously claiming that the hutts could have taken out the Galactic Republic with utter ease if they had wanted to?

I'm saying the thought would of never crossed their mind as they had a license to do what ever the hell they wanted as long as they weren't openly thuggish in the nicer planets

They couldn't have. The Trade Federation in TPM was scared of the Republic intervening, which is why they had to stall and bullshit the Republic Senate into arguing amongst each other.

if i had soldiers as craptastic as the Trade Feds? I'd be scared too week end warriors .a ten year old and a species of retards throwing Jello took them out

[

The Empire didn't care about Tatooine.

Lando ran an entire city under their nose too..the rebels built a standing army how ever crummy under their nose too

speaks volumes for a lack of control


[

So nobody did? Why, then, was the populace going amongst their daily lives? Have you seen what happens when there is no law? Have you seen video footages of Katrina when order breaks down?

I survived hurricane Andrew 250,000 houses destroyed I remember going outside and thinking some one bombed us with a nuke....I know what its like to go months with out basic amenities in an extreme environment

and you know what? it was pretty fucking terrible but we got by..conversely I also remember a friend of mine who lived in Liberty City? yeah conditions in his part of the ghetto were so bad so bad..he barely noticed any difference..while my little suburb living ass thought it was the end of the world...

that's incredibly fucked up that the living conditions where so bad a major society altering disaster happened and he barely remembers it as a major thing...*thats* the reaction of the average citizen not..of a core or mid rim world in star wars..that's how bad things are

conversely before that I lived in Argentina and I remember when things were so financially terrible that a million peso bill (and yes you can google image they printed that and circulated it as currency) had so little meaning that all you could do was buy fucking gum....

I think this makes me qualified to talk don't you think?

Are you saying that (almost) every civilian in Star Wars just goes by on their daily business with no law enforcement to protect or police them?

every civilian no a good chunk of the galaxy absolutely

So that you're saying that 10,000 Jedi simultaneously police 100,000 planets?

That each Jedi polices 10 planets at once?

they barely left the temple when they where called in the reaction was usually one of instant calming the fuck out

And not major incursions; everyday bank robberies, murders, tax evasions, etc.?

the 'burb worlds prolly had police officers sure

When it takes a police force of several hundred thousands of police officers to police the United States alone?

the US isn't a society that has to run from it's own territories and cities like Rome or one so completely on the verge of death that it has almost no control out in the farther territories

Please, explain to me how one Jedi simultaneously keeps order in 10 planets at once and stops the MILLIONS of bank robberies, shootings, etc that will be going on EVERY SECOND?

don't you DOW's think they can stop a speed blitz from the flash? you tell me


[

Obi Wan states that the Jedi had been the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic for over a thousand generations.

sure he said that then Lucas had the KFC guy from ep say it only existed for a millennium

So then Star Wars isn't retarded. You should revise your claim to say that some aspects of Star Wars, maybe some select novels, are retarded.

retarded in the sense that the universe has it seems leaders and commanders who are pants on head stupid with the exception of a very few and this got worse

1. Address the substance of my arguments. You misused the word contradict, which you clearly don't understand.

assault on my brain power?

2. FYI, no DBZ warriors are ever star busters, but you probably already knew that. Not even with power scaling does even SSJ Vegito reach the power to bust even a dwarf star.

absolutely agreed but that hasn't stopped fans from churning out pretty well done calcs claiming other wise (math can't be biased yet they find away)

When Anakin in TPM arrives on Coruscant for the first time, the officer next to him states that the entire planet surface is covered in a city.

like it was a big thing kinda lends credence to the capital being unique

Thank you; security and the Jedi. So there is indeed security, which presumably must be funded, correct?

There is no evidence that the Galactic Republic had trouble maintaining street order; obviously they had trouble stopping rogue corporations, but that has nothing to do with police competence and more to do with a corrupt Senate and a slow bureaucracy.

theres allot of evidence

The US features about a 2.14 to 1000 police to civilian ratio. The Galactic Republic consisted of almost 100 quadrillion civilians. That means that there would have to be several trillion police officers.

Guess what? Those police officers do not get their weapons, clothing, training, etc from magic.

see above

If there was no order, then EVERYWHERE would have been crummy. The fact that we see orderly places with civil civilians means that there is indeed law enforcement.

I'm pretty sure I've always been claiming that lawlessness existed within the galaxy at large but some areas were exempt...though some areas of curoscant herself looked really bad

That's not the point. You're making up the idea that the Galactic Republic was some sort of lawless, policeless land where criminals reined, but that obviously isn't true! There's a big difference between failing to catch rogue corporations and failing to police planets.

corruption decadence and wide spread crime in various sectors complete lawlessness entire micronations existing with out any control

[

Then why do you use TCW series? Sure, GL helped make them, but they ain't the films, right?

they are for the time being accurate to the films

What? Pointing out a logical fallacy is trolling now?

the way it's done yes

Details please? How dead was the star? What process was used? How long did it take?

techno babble and stabilized proto matter and it took some seconds

Because never once do you bother to refute my mathematical calculations or variable definings. You only say "invalid source!", even if I am using movie sources.

I refute them you just dislike the way I do it

That's exactly what I'm saying! If I am using feats to make calculations, do not just dismiss it as speculation, because everything in this topic is speculation. What you should comment on is whether or not it's good speculation.

the difference being going purely by feats eliminates as much "bad" speculation as possible

Why don't you explain HOW it is invalid?

I think I did

Sources please.

DS9 TNG

How does that have anything to do with VOLUME and MASS?

power generation on average far greater then the huge ISD's

No it doesn't. Reviving dead stars and planets are both unquantifiable, unless if you provide specific examples, the time duration, the method used, the context, etc.

wait what? what? seriously? oh lawd

1. Sources please.

watch star trek bro

2. Reviving a "dead planet", aka bringing life back to it, has little at all to do with power generation or military prowess. It's about terraforming, which is not really important in a war.

when you can harness the resources of a planet that easily yeah it does

We aren't talking about alternate histories here. What you are referring to is terraforming, which is a completely different type of tech than planet busting.

and yet as early as the twentieth century they seemed to have space based capabilities and mid 21 century world war recovery and all..colonizing


[

Show me an example of them reviving a dead star.

DS9

What? In the 60's/70's/etc/even today, there is constant chit chat about colonizing Mars.

Does that mean that we're colonizing planets every day?

if you and I were at a bar and a bunch of truck drivers from john Deer just came off shift and started talking about how they had to drop off a fuck load of equipment at Venus then make another run to Alpha centuari sure

What? The films and their respective novels are BOTH the exact same story, told through a different medium. The respective novels are just a half step down from the books in canon status.

Meanwhile, the toons are T canon, lower than G canon.

only the toons have lines not supported in the films

Not only that, but AT-AT's with their laser cannons on maximum firepower created a fireball visible from 17 kilometers away as a giant mushroom cloud AND were so strong that they shook a military base that was inside a MOUNTAIN!

you mean the destruction of the shield generator and the explosion of it's power cells and what have you caused that sure

I don't get it:

WHY do you accept TCW cartoon as canon, but not the movie films, which are G canon, above even TCW cartoons, and almost identical to the films? 90% of what is seen in the novels is also in the films, whereas none of TCW cartoons involve events from the films.

I explained this already

Yet you accept TCW cartoons, but not the movie novels, despite the latter being higher ranked in canon?

Why? Other than because you aren't willing to accept any evidence that would benefit Star Wars?

just explained it

What primary canon supports it? The only primary canon are the film-novels and the films. Nowhere in either is a million man clone army stated.

film totally supports it

And the South revolted in the American Civil War, too. I suppose that the United States was lawless?

boy that period of American history sure was a bastion of the governments ability to defend people from native Americans..robbers and oh yeah...even protect freemen in the north from being randomly grabbed for the lulz by the south

A sense of scale? You made the claim that 10,000 Jedi policed 100,000 worlds.

lucas films did not me

Actually, the films state that taxation is too high, implying that the Republic does indeed tax, and a lot at that.

and it certainly gets put to good use..oh wait..

The Federation doesn't use money. It does use resources, and its resources are significantly lower than the far larger Republic.

and yet the average fed world has a quality of living and resource abundance that makes Wars look really bad by comparison

The Republic is still around, and has been for "a thousand generations." Therefore, it has survived for all that time.

thousand years

In which case the movies would never happen, because the Republic would not have survived for "a thousand generations".

lol

Clearly, you did not use your eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cU0BYXlTuI

This time, pay attention to the ships in the background too.

yeah not seeing those numbers

...

Go on google images and search up Venator. Many of these pictures are from the films.

As you can see, the size of the Venator can easily be calculated via scaling from starfighters, which can be scaled from human standing next to them.

We can tell that they are easily about a 1km long. Simple math can tell that human clone troopers can fit in vast numbers in them.

how does this change the fact that they never fielded those numbers

How does terraforming a planet equate to the energy needed to scatter said planet's mass at escape velocity?

when you can do it quickly it speaks for an average power generation that dwarfs the emp and the rep

mind you the ability to mass scatter entire solar systems with a trilithium bomb makes the DS look terrible oh and that a fleet of Klingon ships and that other species did the samer thing to two planets

Which is irrelevant, because the Federation never actually CREATES planets, they just terraform planets. Which involves cleaning the air, cleaning the surface, water, etc.

LOLWUT?

How much energy does it take to "revive" a sun?

more then needed to pop a planet that's for damn sure

How is this a logical rebuttal?

your post wasn't logical

never claimed that. I claimed that the Empire would still be building roads and buildings, which EVERY nation state does. Not once did I imply that said construction would be visible in two decades, on planets that have been inhabited for milena.

they looked to barely maintaining what was

A picture like this has no logical argument supporting it.

what you said merited such a response

Yes it does. You honestly think that the Republic survived for thousands of generations without ever building roads or spending money on maintenance. You fail to do this for a year to a city, and it starts to go downhill. For thousands of generations? Do you realize that modern skyscrapers are predicted to last no more than a few centuries before collapsing if they are not given maintenance, which COSTS MONEY AND RESOURCES?

no I think that it barely can sustain itself and has been that way for a very long time...

Are you honestly saying that you NEVER insult my intelligence?

as a knee jerk reaction to some of your more colorful claims and stubborness? yes? as an actual genuine policy of my debate style? no not really

Oh really? How many people call you out? If, as often happens to me, 10 people call you out in a thread with long paragraph posts, do you respond to all of them, when many of their points overlap?

I've been largely lucky on this forum but on many others especially pro Otaku or SB when those comic hating clowns pop up...I've usually always made an effort to answer every one who calls me out

mind you space battles is a special kind of fail in that regard so usually i just push their buttons troll 'em and leave..but on the main boards I post? I've never backed off from a challenge if I'm going to be such a harsh ass debater it's the least I can do

I stated that the Death Star 2 was more powerful.

You denied it, saying that it wasn't.

yes and my comment is supported by the actual battle of endor itself

Yet, irrefutable canon evidence from the opening crawl of ROTJ blatantly states that the Death Star 2 was more powerful.

seeing as the ability to solo fleets by itself makes it more powerful...in the sense of now it can operate in place of an ISD battle group how is what I said wrong

No, you denied my claim that the Death Star 2 was more powerful when the opening crawl explicitly states so.

a statement that could be interpreted any number of ways

1. You insult me too. Practice what you preach. I will NOT insult you if you do NOT insult me, but you DO, often times behind my back.

sure when you screw up..as opposed too part of a dedicated DOW debate style

See? You complain when others insult you, yet at the same time imply that said others are sub human and part of a hive mind.

sub human? lol no..but hive minded? dangerously close to zealotry? absolutely and you know what? my "insult" is backed up by about a decade of invasions rabbid posts and flamewars on your sides part...so yeah no I'm at least stating a factual claim how ever mean it comes off

I did watch it. I did not find your evidence, so I am asking for sources.

clearly you did seeing as you believed voyager contained thousands of people

That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about industrial production capabilities, and the mass and volume of the Federation fleet, built over several years in full scale military mobilization, does not add up to even 1% of the Death Star 2, built to 60% completion in under a year in secret.

trek fields larger numbers of ships builds god knows how many times faster and engineers stars...

yes it's industry is superior in some cases with some species it isn't but with the feds and the domies? it's a fuckton of a large gap

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Breentai, I would like to politely request that you go back and provide rebuttals to posts that you did not refute.

For example, I said:

In which case the movies would never happen, because the Republic would not have survived for "a thousand generations".

And you say:

lol

I'm sorry, but that does not give any explanation as to what is wrong with my argument.


Again:

1. Sources please.

watch star trek bro

"Watch star trek bro" is telling me to find YOUR evidence for you. By that logic, I could claim that a star destroyer can destroy the universe, and ask you to find the universe by saying "watch Star Wars bro." Granted, what I said was untrue, but I used the same argument as you did, right? The burden of proof is on you to show me the evidence. Star Trek is a very long show; do you expect me to watch hundreds of episodes to find your one source?

What primary canon supports it? The only primary canon are the film-novels and the films. Nowhere in either is a million man clone army stated.

film totally supports it

I am asking you where primary canon (aka films and their novels) support your claim.

Your response: the film supports it.


What?

Elaboration, please. WHERE in the 12 hours of film? Which movie? What quote? This is far too vague to be considered evidence.

Which is irrelevant, because the Federation never actually CREATES planets, they just terraform planets. Which involves cleaning the air, cleaning the surface, water, etc.

LOLWUT?

What is ridiculous about my post? You implied that the Federation outproduced the Empire because it could make planets and stars, but the Federation never made planets or stars, so what's your point?





There's also no math mentality:

2. Reviving a "dead planet", aka bringing life back to it, has little at all to do with power generation or military prowess. It's about terraforming, which is not really important in a war.

when you can harness the resources of a planet that easily yeah it does

The total biomass energy of a planet is completely insignificant next to even the US's modern nuclear arsenal, let alone the power of millions of suns.

[mojo]

Breentai, I would like to politely request that you go back and provide rebuttals to posts that you did not refute.

StarWarsStarTrek, I would like to politely request that you go back and provide rebuttals to posts that you did not refute, or better yet, the entire thread which you totally failed to refute. You remember, the first one you made? About how you would concede the debate given two pieces of evidence, and then failed to rebut THOUSANDS?

[Admiral Breetai]

Breentai, I would like to politely request that you go back and provide rebuttals to posts that you did not refute.]

I refuted them the times that I responded to you the way I did is because what you said was so mind bogglingly stupid or was an example of you willfully and intentionally wanking or being dishonest in that case I have absolutely no...obligation to do more then laugh at you


[

I'm sorry, but that does not give any explanation as to what is wrong with my argument

.

seeing as the republic didn't survive for a thousand generations but a thousand years in the films..your flat out wrong...you ignored this of course and I laughed

"Watch star trek bro" is telling me to find YOUR evidence for you. By that logic, I could claim that a star destroyer can destroy the universe, and ask you to find the universe by saying "watch Star Wars bro." Granted, what I said was untrue, but I used the same argument as you did, right? The burden of proof is on you to show me the evidence. Star Trek is a very long show; do you expect me to watch hundreds of episodes to find your one source?

and we have this problem you have made claims with absolute confidence about trek that are well FANTASTICALLY FUCKING INSANE...in the sense that it is literally impossible for a person who's familiar with the medium to make such claims (voyager having thousands of crew for example)

it has become clear to me that I'm dealing with some one who is claiming to have a clue and be an expert but is actually completely full of shit..in that case you do not have the right to ask me for evidence..your the one claiming to know what the hell your talking about...fucking put up..or go back to your place of worship and cry



[

I am asking you where primary canon (aka films and their novels) support your claim.

Your response: the film supports it.


What?

Elaboration, please. WHERE in the 12 hours of film? Which movie? What quote? This is far too vague to be considered evidence.

and LOL here we go back to this willfully ignoring my posts and doing this DERPADERP IMA TRYZ TA DISCREDIT BREETAI CUZ LIKE I TOTALLY CANTZ BEAT HIS ARGUMENTS LEGITIMATELY I mean mind you I've debated dozens of DOW's in my life and only ever lost to one in one argument..so I;m used to this kind of shit..but you you do it soo poorly and then never bother to address you think your slick and run away and attack my credibility or go "DURR U GAIZ ARE TOTALLY H8RS STOP BEING MEAN TO WONG!!"

it was explained to you earlier in the post that you either can't read or choose to ignore isn't my problem but I will not waste text space on you..if you choose to blatantly try underhanded debate tactics like this while ignoring posts

What is ridiculous about my post? You implied that the Federation outproduced the Empire because it could make planets and stars, but the Federation never made planets or stars, so what's your point?

it's so ridiculous that you would claim they never produced a planet it requires you to functionally know nothing about star trek at all and is mind bogglingly shocking

There's also no math mentality:

I don't recognize DOW calcs as anything other then invalid third party nonsense

The total biomass energy of a planet is completely insignificant next to even the US's modern nuclear arsenal, let alone the power of millions of suns.

I think you have reading comprehension problems...they obviously make use of the resources of an entire planet..no correction they can with replicators easily produce this...as we have seen countless times...from a single scout ship being able to instantly repair catastrophic damage to a planet then easily impart to them with their limited resources the means with which to build an industrial replicator allowing them to eventually repair their entire biosphere

we have seen the Dominion easily and casually turn one of the most resource poor regions of the galaxy and one of the shittiest empires into an industrial power house and did this with tech they considered not enough to use on their own major war producing facilities

we have seen resurrected suns...suns instantly obliterated entire worlds converted resource poor sectors into highly stable industrial regions inside a period of weeks...we've seen them harness the power of stars to fuel shipyards...tap blackholes

really it goes on and on no matter what you want to claim other wise

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Breetai;

1. George Lucas confirms that the film novels are G canon, above even TCW. The only things higher than it are the films themselves and GL's own statements.

2. The resources of a planet's biomass are still insignificant compared to modern fusion bombs.

3. I am politely, kindly asking you to provide quotes, pictures, video, etc of your claims as to ST building planets. I am asking for proof. If it is blatantly obvious, then this should be even easier.

4. The Enterprise's shields fell once to about 4 gigawatts of power, and later to about half a kiloton of EM radiation. A star destroyer's HLs even by darkstar's calculations are 1.5 megatons, 3000 times stronger than the explicitly stated upper limit of the Enterprise via Data.

5. The 5 km tall skyscrapers of Coruscant can survive the stresses of tens of millions of tons weighing down upon them, as the canon films show in TPM, AoTC and ROTS. In contrast, the Enterprise was penetrated by the kinetic energy of the level of an Ak47 volley. Do not laugh this off, because canon evidence supports this.

6. In TCW, a rocket launcher blasts off an entire cliff side, showing power on par with modern MOAB's...with a shoulder mounted weapon. Star Trek phasers on full power vaporized a woman, with no excess energy.

7. In an episode of Voyager, Janeway and her crew get into a firefight. Guess what? Their phasers are visibly doing literally NO damage to naturally formed rocks.

[Mike DiCenso]

4. The Enterprise's shields fell once to about 4 gigawatts of power, and later to about half a kiloton of EM radiation. A star destroyer's HLs even by darkstar's calculations are 1.5 megatons, 3000 times stronger than the explicitly stated upper limit of the Enterprise via Data.

Never, ever once has any Enterprise's shields or hull platting fallen to 4 gigawatts of power. Please provide the quotes and calculations. Where does this "half kiloton" of energy come from? Sounds like you are inventing lies. We know that from "Relics" that the E-D's shields can withstand at least 69 megatons of EM radiation from a Type-G star, and can withstand far more than that from an even more energetic star in "Descent, Part 2" (hull heated to 12,000 degree C through shields).

5. The 5 km tall skyscrapers of Coruscant can survive the stresses of tens of millions of tons weighing down upon them, as the canon films show in TPM, AoTC and ROTS. In contrast, the Enterprise was penetrated by the kinetic energy of the level of an Ak47 volley. Do not laugh this off, because canon evidence supports this.

This sounds like dishonesty, SWST. Can you provide said "evidence" of this? We have seen the E-D saucer section in ST:Generations smash through rock outcroppings at hundreds of meters per second (millions of terajoules of KE), through hills, and thousands of thick redwood trees without even scratching the paint on the hull, much less any deformation of the metal plating.

6. In TCW, a rocket launcher blasts off an entire cliff side, showing power on par with modern MOAB's...with a shoulder mounted weapon. Star Trek phasers on full power vaporized a woman, with no excess energy.

That's not quite true, though the TCW example you site is impressive, it's nowhere near MOAB-level. By contrast, in "Where no Man Has Gone Before", Kirk fires a phaser rifle at a cliffside, causing massive rapid thermal expansion effects, and causing a huge boulder to fall down and kill Gary Mitchell. A hand weapon basically does the same as a modern 105 mm artillery shell or better. That's impressive! Not long after that, in TOS' "Mantrap", Dr. Crater fires an old phaser pistol at Kirk and Spock, causing a large explosion, which shatters several old rock pillars, and makes them crumble.
Is that TOS-only feats? Nope. In TNG's "Hide and Q", Worf fires a tiny hand phaser at a 1 meter wide boulder as a test, and blows up over half it with full DET effects. In "Too Short a Season", Worf and Tasha Yar use their phasers to cut through a thick metal plate within seconds.

7. In an episode of Voyager, Janeway and her crew get into a firefight. Guess what? Their phasers are visibly doing literally NO damage to naturally formed rocks.

What is the situation? What is the context? Are the phasers on stun? What are they shooting at? What is the episode's name? Evidence please, or you will be given warnings for dishonest debating tactics.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

Breetai;

1. George Lucas confirms that the film novels are G canon, above even TCW. The only things higher than it are the films themselves and GL's own statements.]

I don't give a damn they have lines in them not in the movies..that makes them nonsense

2. The resources of a planet's biomass are still insignificant compared to modern fusion bombs.

and yet the empire is absolutely unable to tap the resources of an entire planet

3. I am politely, kindly asking you to provide quotes, pictures, video, etc of your claims as to ST building planets. I am asking for proof. If it is blatantly obvious, then this should be even easier.

you have made repeated claims to know about the series, you have shown that these claims are a complete lie..back your own biased and nonsense up or in the words of a famous wrestler know your damn role and shut your damn mouth seriously...this is getting obscene

4. The Enterprise's shields fell once to about 4 gigawatts of power,

a complete lie

]5. The 5 km tall skyscrapers of Coruscant can survive the stresses of tens of millions of tons weighing down upon them, as the canon films show in TPM, AoTC and ROTS. In contrast, the Enterprise was penetrated by the kinetic energy of the level of an Ak47 volley. Do not laugh this off, because canon evidence supports this.

if by canon evidence you mean the big E casually withstanding fire power sufficient to rip the atmosphere off a planet unshielded? or the time it withstood repeated blows from a bird of prey of a model that previous was able to completely burn a planet into a lifeless husk in seconds? or how a fleet of those shattered a planet?

or how Picard considered capital ship weaponry capable of mass scattering a world "primitive' really your fucking lying completely out of your ass

6. In TCW, a rocket launcher blasts off an entire cliff side, showing power on par with modern MOAB's...with a shoulder mounted weapon. Star Trek phasers on full power vaporized a woman, with no excess energy.

and yet the films support low tech on that magnitude

7. In an episode of Voyager, Janeway and her crew get into a firefight. Guess what? Their phasers are visibly doing literally NO damage to naturally formed rocks.

we went over this...this was the same example you cited when you proved categorically that you have never seen an episode of trek in your life when you claimed voyage had a crew larger then the population of DS9

you haven't been banned for deliberate fraud and misdirection to torpedo a civil debate because..i onno..theres no objective reason for you to still be here what so ever