Another turbolaser calculation

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon May 09, 2011 11:52 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:A star destroyer's reactor core is 140 meters long.
It powers a lot of things and none of the barrels ever reaches the size of the planetary TL's bore. I think the barrels are like 3 meters wide at best, for the HTLs on an ISD-II
Hmm, that's interesting. Although the logic that the "New" essential guide is prevalent over the original is sketchy, I can understand your logic that it would take precedence, being newer.
It's not sketchy. The updated data contradicts the older one, and as always, the principle of a new edition is quite easy to understand in terms of prevalence.
With that in mind, the more conservative calculation sort of give the planetary turbolaser a low score. However, if you use a higher end calculation, it still evens out.
It's hard to get anything huge, even on the high end, when working from a small city.
Claiming megatons would be absurd.


The main Star Wars website:

The Death Star's prime weapon unleashed unthinkable levels of raw energy capable of tearing apart entire worlds.
The OS is generally seen as the less reliable source of all official sources. I guess it's just a notch above the fluff on a SW mug.
Still, raw energy or not, the way it's unleashed has nothing to do with pure DET.
There's also no reason to take that literally.


Granted, only one Death Star was ever operational at a time, so it's hard to say. Star Wars is probably not a complete Type 3 yet, but is in between a Type 2 and a Type 3.
The Enterprise is about 10^19 watts.
Pardon? The Enterprise is now a measure of power. Could you please rephrase that, and if it means what I think it might mean, could you provide evidence of that?
Exactly. The Death Star is e32 - e40 joules depending on your interpretation, and the heavily populated Star Wars planets such as Coruscant would consume ridiculous amounts of energy.
As said before, there are DS threads for you to refresh if you think you have any superior evidence. If you had read anything of what has been said here, you'd know that "your interpretation" could go very low, way below e32 J as a matter of fact.
Please don't restart this. We have enough evidence piled by now to prove it is. It has a DET component, but it's not as glorious as some people think. If you want to dispute that, please refer to the threads on this forum, after having properly read them first.
From the original SW ICS:

"the Death Star is built around a hypermatter reactor which can generate enough power to destroy an entire planet."
We already covered that. You're telling me nothing new. Don't insist pushing your arguments here if they're nothing new.

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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Tue May 10, 2011 6:40 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote: It powers a lot of things and none of the barrels ever reaches the size of the planetary TL's bore. I think the barrels are like 3 meters wide at best, for the HTLs on an ISD-II
Point taken. A planetary turbolaser is probably more powerful than an individual heavy turbolaser bolt, although this is still disputable. For example, the ground turbolaser battery would have the disadvantage of having to fire upwards through the atmosphere, in which case its reactor would also have to be safe enough so as to not damage the environment, because there is no endless space to radiate to.
It's not sketchy. The updated data contradicts the older one, and as always, the principle of a new edition is quite easy to understand in terms of prevalence.
It's possible and probable, but not explicitly defined. Did Han shoot first, or did Greedo?
It's hard to get anything huge, even on the high end, when working from a small city.
Claiming megatons would be absurd.
Even small cities would include spaceports that have ships lifting and reaching escape velocity within seconds. A space age society consumes far more energy than you might think.


The OS is generally seen as the less reliable source of all official sources. I guess it's just a notch above the fluff on a SW mug.
Still, raw energy or not, the way it's unleashed has nothing to do with pure DET.
There's also no reason to take that literally.
I could say the same about TCW, but people here support it because "zomg! George Lucas helped make it!" and, as a hidden reason, "zomg! It supports Star Trek!". The former one, the one that is not a skewed bias, also applies to the Star Wars website.

But I can understand why you do not trust the Star Wars website on such things, since some of the content there is sketchy and unreliable. I do not trust the Star Wars databank, nor do I trust TCW with more than storylines and character traits. TCW is not, in any way, reliable either.

As for whether or not it's DET, it hardly matters. What matters is how much energy was expended; given that you have considered the possibility, one can therefore conclude that the Death Star is indeed expending e32 joules or more. Whether this is through DET or some weird hyperspace attack is irrelevant.




Pardon? The Enterprise is now a measure of power. Could you please rephrase that, and if it means what I think it might mean, could you provide evidence of that?
The Enterprise has a power output of about 10^19 watts. What is so confusing about that?

PS. As further evidence of the Death Star not being a chain reaction weapon or some other voodoo, seperate sources have claimed that the superlaser is really a series of turbolasers being combined and amplified by some sort of crystal. If I recall correctly, George Lucas mentioned this idea in his drafts. It's a really, really, really powerful and amplified turbolaser, not some technoblabble chain reaction that somehow converts matter into antimatter or some other weird process.


As said before, there are DS threads for you to refresh if you think you have any superior evidence. If you had read anything of what has been said here, you'd know that "your interpretation" could go very low, way below e32 J as a matter of fact.



We already covered that. You're telling me nothing new. Don't insist pushing your arguments here if they're nothing new.
We didn't already cover that. That source was from the original ICS; you can claim neither unreliability nor bias. The Death Star had enough power output to destroy a planet; not some chain reaction device that you'd expect for someone to mention somewhere in Star Wars, but raw power. Checkmate.

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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by Admiral Breetai » Tue May 10, 2011 9:29 pm

why are you siting the ICS when it isn't canon?

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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by Lucky » Wed May 11, 2011 8:34 am

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
We didn't already cover that. That source was from the original ICS; you can claim neither unreliability nor bias. The Death Star had enough power output to destroy a planet; not some chain reaction device that you'd expect for someone to mention somewhere in Star Wars, but raw power. Checkmate.
Except the novelation and movie contradict this idea along with a source or few in the EU.

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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by Picard » Wed May 11, 2011 1:54 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:We didn't already cover that. That source was from the original ICS; you can claim neither unreliability nor bias. The Death Star had enough power output to destroy a planet; not some chain reaction device that you'd expect for someone to mention somewhere in Star Wars, but raw power. Checkmate.
Nope. Not only you are using non-canon information, but you are also... intentionally forgetting canon information that doesn't suit you.
nor do I trust TCW with more than storylines
As it should be. But I got impression that feats from TCW are used mainly as counterargument for usage against ICS apologizers and wank-up-star-wars-no-matter-what-canon-says style people, NOT as main source for Star Wars feats. Or at least it should be that way.
The Enterprise has a power output of about 10^19 watts.
Galaxy class starship power core has standard power output of 3.2 x 10e18 to 4.25 x 10e18 W. Upper limit 1.275 x 10e19 W.

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... _core.html

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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed May 11, 2011 7:43 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:The main Star Wars website:

The Death Star's prime weapon unleashed unthinkable levels of raw energy capable of tearing apart entire worlds.
This is a meaningless quote. The raw energy could be only a petaton or even far less, and it still could qualify as "unthinkable levels". We know from the ANH novelization that the superlaser uses matter-energy conversion process, and the EU Death Star novel makes it clear that the superlaser does it's dirty work via shunting most of a planet's mass into hyperspace, so the Star Wars website, if you are accurately reporting this, is incorrect, and overridden by other sources, one of which is second-tier G-canon.
-Mike

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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Thu May 12, 2011 8:02 pm

Picard wrote:
Nope. Not only you are using non-canon information,
Oh, please. The very purpose of the existence of the ICS is for commentary on the movies. Do you seriously think that a book about the movies is not part of the same universe as the movies?

Spare me a break.
but you are also... intentionally forgetting canon information that doesn't suit you.
Like what? Extremely vague descriptions of the Death Star that "might" hint to a chain reaction vs very blunt, "raw power" statements supporting the more scientifically accurate DET theory?
As it should be. But I got impression that feats from TCW are used mainly as counterargument for usage against ICS apologizers and wank-up-star-wars-no-matter-what-canon-says style people, NOT as main source for Star Wars feats. Or at least it should be that way.
TCW is not consistent with itself or with any other source at all, but I still have to take its feats as canon...because it is canon.

Similarly, the AOTC/ROTS ICS obviously glorifies Star Wars, but that is not basis for the information being unreliable, nor does it mean that you can discount it because you don't like it.
Galaxy class starship power core has standard power output of 3.2 x 10e18 to 4.25 x 10e18 W. Upper limit 1.275 x 10e19 W.
...that exactly what I said. Actually, the numbers that you have shown are lower than what I have given the Enterprise.
The script for the episode specifies that Data was about to say per second.

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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu May 12, 2011 8:38 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: It powers a lot of things and none of the barrels ever reaches the size of the planetary TL's bore. I think the barrels are like 3 meters wide at best, for the HTLs on an ISD-II
Point taken. A planetary turbolaser is probably more powerful than an individual heavy turbolaser bolt, although this is still disputable. For example, the ground turbolaser battery would have the disadvantage of having to fire upwards through the atmosphere, in which case its reactor would also have to be safe enough so as to not damage the environment, because there is no endless space to radiate to.
They seem to cope with thermal issues very easily in SW, like in many SF universes. Their hypoconductors are top rate in many ways I guess. So this isn't a problem. Besides, if you think about the bolt itself losing energy through friction, the ISD would be at a disadvantage here, since the longer the bolt would fly (and thus unavoidably lose coherency, nothing is eternal), the greater the friction as it would descend into the atmosphere.
A ground piece as the advantage of its bolt dealing with the highest amount of friction at the time it's all fresh. Besides, it's solely designed as a planetary piece, contrary to a space ship which is widely used to patrol and attack other space ships.
It's possible and probable, but not explicitly defined. Did Han shoot first, or did Greedo?
The new guide supersedes the older one, that's fairly simple.
It's hard to get anything huge, even on the high end, when working from a small city.
Claiming megatons would be absurd.
Even small cities would include spaceports that have ships lifting and reaching escape velocity within seconds. A space age society consumes far more energy than you might think.
A society as a whole, perhaps, but ships which can travel to any star system have certainly nothing to do with a city, otherwise on this same faulty logic, Coruscan't power consumption can be used to determine Naboo's.


The OS is generally seen as the less reliable source of all official sources. I guess it's just a notch above the fluff on a SW mug.
Still, raw energy or not, the way it's unleashed has nothing to do with pure DET.
There's also no reason to take that literally.
I could say the same about TCW, but people here support it because "zomg! George Lucas helped make it!" and, as a hidden reason, "zomg! It supports Star Trek!".
The former one, the one that is not a skewed bias, also applies to the Star Wars website.
Also because even the official canon policy used for the EU places TCWS above the EU, including (at best) the OS.
But I can understand why you do not trust the Star Wars website on such things, since some of the content there is sketchy and unreliable. I do not trust the Star Wars databank, nor do I trust TCW with more than storylines and character traits. TCW is not, in any way, reliable either.
That's a matter of tastes. The reliability of the OS is a matter of facts. It's the source that mindlessly repeated the wrong sizes for several crafts and vehicles, and I think it even introduced some of its own at some point.
The OS's data, which often changes, is a randomly pieced up summary of cherry picked pieces from all the EU. It has always been like that, even at some point doing nothing more than copying whole chunks of some guides, be they new or from the WEG era.
The other problem with the OS is that it's not fixed in time with specific editions. One update can easily erase the former data and all is lost, even if no contradictions could be found between the old data and the new data, reworded differently. The destruction of older sources, that's something scholars HATE.
Hence why the OS is at the bottom of the evidence pit. You can't know when the current data will just be dumped. It makes it very unreliable, and people will simply prefer one source that's fixed in time.
As for whether or not it's DET, it hardly matters. What matters is how much energy was expended; given that you have considered the possibility, one can therefore conclude that the Death Star is indeed expending e32 joules or more. Whether this is through DET or some weird hyperspace attack is irrelevant.
Oh, it matters. It matters greatly, because it draws the line between the Death Star's own core and some region of hyperspace.
What I think happens when a superlaser sufficiently saturates a target is largely described in the thread I keep telling you to read and eventually bump.

If you have watched Stargate, think of the zatnikatel gun. The third shot triggers a chain reaction into the target, assuming it's already been shot twice within a small enough amount of time, and is human sized or less. The only difference with the Death Star superlaser is that the frontier between a fraction of the SL and a full powered shot is not as contrasted as it is between the second shot and the third shot of the zatnikatel gun.

Pardon? The Enterprise is now a measure of power. Could you please rephrase that, and if it means what I think it might mean, could you provide evidence of that?
The Enterprise has a power output of about 10^19 watts. What is so confusing about that?
Your sentence. Bad English. And what's confusing is where you get such evidence.
PS. As further evidence of the Death Star not being a chain reaction weapon or some other voodoo, seperate sources have claimed that the superlaser is really a series of turbolasers being combined and amplified by some sort of crystal. If I recall correctly, George Lucas mentioned this idea in his drafts. It's a really, really, really powerful and amplified turbolaser, not some technoblabble chain reaction that somehow converts matter into antimatter or some other weird process.
This has already been addressed repeatedly. Go read the appropriate threads.
I may have to report you for your insistence.
As said before, there are DS threads for you to refresh if you think you have any superior evidence. If you had read anything of what has been said here, you'd know that "your interpretation" could go very low, way below e32 J as a matter of fact.

We already covered that. You're telling me nothing new. Don't insist pushing your arguments here if they're nothing new.
We didn't already cover that.
Yes we did. Nothing of what you present is fresh at all. You would know that if you had read the threads in question. Obviously you didn't. Don't expect me to pay any more attention to your tired position. Been there done that.

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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu May 12, 2011 8:38 pm

I'd like to point out that Picard and Admiral Breetai consider the EU non canon. FYI.

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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu May 12, 2011 8:45 pm

The script for the episode specifies that Data was about to say per second.
And the show has shown that he was interrupted. So the script is describing something which has simply never happened, and never would.
It's not acceptable.

He could have easily said per hour, it's widely done today. He could have said per a given quantity of matter, but that doesn't mean it's consumed in one second. We also use such formulations today. This one is particularly interesting since we know that UFP heavy ships destroyed due to warp core overloads tend to be largely - although incompletely - vaporized, which points to events rated in the gigaton range, with most likely a large amount of AM being consumed in the process.

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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Thu May 12, 2011 9:11 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Oh, it matters. It matters greatly, because it draws the line between the Death Star's own core and some region of hyperspace.
What I think happens when a superlaser sufficiently saturates a target is largely described in the thread I keep telling you to read and eventually bump.
I'd like to address this part of your post. If the Death Star's power generation ranks at e32 watts but the superlaser is not DET, that is a win for Star Wars.

What matters in context to ship vs ship firepower is that a star destroyer's power generation can now be reasonably scaled down from that of the Death Star's.

We would get to a power generation of e26 watts, vs the e19 watts of the Enterprise.

That means that a star destroyers produces ten million times more energy than the Enterprise.

Which, consequently, means that a single star destroyer outpowers all of Starfleet!

How does the nature of the superlaser matter in this case? It's main dispute is because it would affect the Death Star's power generation capabilities, which would in turn affect those of star destroyers.

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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri May 13, 2011 3:57 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I'd like to point out that Picard and Admiral Breetai consider the EU non canon. FYI.
In fairness, however, this is SWST's thread, his/her's OP, so the call belongs to him/her on what is allowed. If SWST is trying to argue solely without benefit of ICS, then it makes it that much harder to prove his/her's case.
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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri May 13, 2011 4:13 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The script for the episode specifies that Data was about to say per second.
And the show has shown that he was interrupted. So the script is describing something which has simply never happened, and never would.
It's not acceptable.

He could have easily said per hour, it's widely done today. He could have said per a given quantity of matter, but that doesn't mean it's consumed in one second. We also use such formulations today. This one is particularly interesting since we know that UFP heavy ships destroyed due to warp core overloads tend to be largely - although incompletely - vaporized, which points to events rated in the gigaton range, with most likely a large amount of AM being consumed in the process.
The calculations you are looking for are here in the old "Phaser/warp power" thread from nearly three years ago. Basically the lower limit here is around four gigatons. With the ability of the E-D's hull to tank 12,000 degree C temperatures, this would be a fairly lower limit to the amount of antimatter in a Galaxy-class starship's warpcore in any given second.
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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by User1618 » Fri May 13, 2011 6:26 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I'd like to point out that Picard and Admiral Breetai consider the EU non canon. FYI.
In fairness, however, this is SWST's thread, his/her's OP, so the call belongs to him/her on what is allowed. If SWST is trying to argue solely without benefit of ICS, then it makes it that much harder to prove his/her's case.
-Mike
Agreed; if he expressly states that non-canon sources are ok, then it's his train-set-- even regarding which non-canon sources are allowed and ones aren't.
And the EU is non-canon with regard to the movies.

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Re: Another turbolaser calculation

Post by Admiral Breetai » Fri May 13, 2011 2:29 pm

of course then if he wants to use that stuff in his thread it's entirely valid for us to dismiss his findings or ask him to prove the ICS and his other sources for conclusions are even remotely consistent with the films on any level what so ever

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