Star Wars Industrial supremacy fact or fairy tale?

[Mike DiCenso]

What's the page number for that quote Donner? Does it come from a newer, or an older edition?
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

I'm just trying to imagine the UFP or hell even the Ferengi getting access to this galaxy

replicators would all but annihilate organizations like the trade federation etc etc

[General Donner]

What's the page number for that quote Donner? Does it come from a newer, or an older edition?
-Mike

pp 52-53 of the 2nd edition. But it's lifted verbatim or very nearly so from the first -- Star Wars Sourcebook are one of those that take over most of the fluff from the previous edition.

[User1610]

I'm just trying to imagine the UFP or hell even the Ferengi getting access to this galaxy

replicators would all but annihilate organizations like the trade federation etc etc

It's just the principle of higher tech, they'd use the whole SW galaxy as toilet-paper.
I just can't believe anyone who says SW tech is anywhere near ST's, they're high on crack. Transporters, replicators, trilithium warheads, you name it. Even the stuff in the EU is ripped right out of Star Trek. Thats why they have to do their logical gymnastics in order to claim that the EU is part and parcel with the G-canon.

[sonofccn]

really? my favorite st flick I mean aside from khan good movie man

Yeah, I mean I'm not saying it isn't a good movie or anything like that. I just personally didn't have it grab me, I'll take Star Trek V with its hokey cult and "god" instead. Not sure why...guess I'm just wierd.

eh he wasn't too much of a wimp he was in a position to negotiate an alliance between his nations most hated enemy and himself and one that would of put them in a major position over said enemy to an extent they'd likely never recover from - not invading klingon space to rescue kirk made perfect sense in that context but was kind of crummy seeing as they not only saved earth but the galaxy and also shot satan in the face

Well I disagree with his basic premise so I'm hard on him. I'm of the opinion its riskier to put your enemy on lifesupport than to call his bluff if he really wants to go off in a pointless blaze of glory.

Plus your right not saving the guy who personally saved the Earth what two or three times at this point in addition to a galaxy worth of other planets during his long career is cold. You know Kirk would have saved the President come hell or high water.

what I don't get is why the fuck he had the romulan ambassador in his secret meetings? I mean really? wtf?

Well obviously he was secretly a Romulan plant to get both the Federation and the Klingon Empire to abort the military expenditures leaving the timing ripe for the pointy eared devils to just swoop in and take the joint. :)

[Admiral Breetai]

]Yeah, I mean I'm not saying it isn't a good movie or anything like that. I just personally didn't have it grab me, I'll take Star Trek V with its hokey cult and "god" instead. Not sure why...guess I'm just wierd.

it has allot of end of cold war allegories to it where as stv has kirk shooting god in the face gangsta style for fool'n with his crew..it's completely rational and natural to prefere god ass capping to political intrigue

]
Well I disagree with his basic premise so I'm hard on him. I'm of the opinion its riskier to put your enemy on lifesupport than to call his bluff if he really wants to go off in a pointless blaze of glory.

he was supposed to be a positive portrayal of jimmy Carter and a "what if" version of Reagen though I think RR would of probably either ordered kirk rescued or put enormous political and economic pressure on these guys to get them to turn him over given the situation they where in it was a viable option the man didn't take meshes him more with the carter analog

the empire if it decided to mass suicide charge the federation would of been a horrific war though if admiral west is to be believed one that would of been a pro fed curbstomp likely due to their complete economic collapse maybe he should of called their bluff but it would of been potentially bloody call

]
Plus your right not saving the guy who personally saved the Earth what two or three times at this point in addition to a galaxy worth of other planets during his long career is cold. You know Kirk would have saved the President come hell or high water.

yeah I'd of made it very clear under no uncertain terms how fucked they'd be if they didn't hand kirk over up too and including genesis device usage

]]Well obviously he was secretly a Romulan plant to get both the Federation and the Klingon Empire to abort the military expenditures leaving the timing ripe for the pointy eared devils to just swoop in and take the joint. :)

and they would of succeeded had it not been for those annoying Cardassians pissing every one off in the following decades and the borg and dominion too

nonclus would of been remembered as a hero of the empire

It's just the principle of higher tech, they'd use the whole SW galaxy as toilet-paper.
I just can't believe anyone who says SW tech is anywhere near ST's, they're high on crack. Transporters, replicators, trilithium warheads, you name it. Even the stuff in the EU is ripped right out of Star Trek. Thats why they have to do their logical gymnastics in order to claim that the EU is part and parcel with the G-canon.

I' m not so sure about toilet paper wars does have some advantages namely their cap ships are built like a cast iron stove those suckers can take a sick pounding as long as the steering wheel isn't crunched so to speak fed ships conversely where glass canons up until the Dominion War era when they began to be able to take obscene amounts of abuse that out does wars but for what they have to work with they field some tough ass boats

also imagine a federation upgraded deathstar2 like if it was transported into ds9's place over the wormhole and the feds finished construction and outfitted them with phaser strips and p-torps and tweaked the reactor

I'd think they could do a whole hellaot more then the ds hull then the imps could for but on average yeah trek drowns out the ge and the republic in terms of industry

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Star Wars has industrial supremacy over Star Trek by sheer virtue of being a thousand times larger and hyperdrive.

Granted, in an equal, one planet scenario of equal populations, Star Trek might have the advantage due to replication technology and transporters.

But in a war, the Empire; or any major Star Wars faction, outproduces the Federation by the same margin in which a united Modern World would outproduce the Roman Empire, based on GDP.

The building of the Death Star is evidence of this; in comparison, the Federation in full military mobilization built tens of thousands of <1000 meter long ships, whereas the Empire in secret built the Death Star 2, massing literally hundreds billions of 1600 meter star destroyers, to 60% completion in 6 months...in the Outer Rim.

[Mike DiCenso]

What's the page number for that quote Donner? Does it come from a newer, or an older edition?
-Mike

pp 52-53 of the 2nd edition. But it's lifted verbatim or very nearly so from the first -- Star Wars Sourcebook are one of those that take over most of the fluff from the previous edition.

Ah, thanks for that.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Star Wars has industrial supremacy over Star Trek by sheer virtue of being a thousand times larger and hyperdrive.

Huh? A number you pulled out of nowhere, and a statement about hyperdrive that is patently false. We know that the Empire has the "home advantage". That's only natural since they've had the thousands of years to scout and maintain the hyperlanes necessary to have very fast hyperspace travel in their galaxy. Without such things, hyperdrive is no better than warp drive in uncharted territory, in fact, fairly worse because they can't use it until a proper charting is done whereas warp drive can be used, but you're headway is very slow. So home advantage to SW, and home advantage to ST.

Granted, in an equal, one planet scenario of equal populations, Star Trek might have the advantage due to replication technology and transporters.

But in a war, the Empire; or any major Star Wars faction, outproduces the Federation by the same margin in which a united Modern World would outproduce the Roman Empire, based on GDP.

Again, all of this was debunked. There is nothing to show for that throughout most of SW's history until the coming of Palpatine, the Clone Wars, and the Galactic Empire. But need we remind you that the Galactic Republic was essentially at risk of being bankrupted by that war, and all over the purchasing of just 5 million extra clones.

The building of the Death Star is evidence of this; in comparison, the Federation in full military mobilization built tens of thousands of <1000 meter long ships, whereas the Empire in secret built the Death Star 2, massing literally hundreds billions of 1600 meter star destroyers, to 60% completion in 6 months...in the Outer Rim

This is illogical to say the least. The Federation built many thousands of ships to be sure. The numbers of Dominion and allied ships suggest possibly tens of thousands within 3 years of fighting the second Borg invasion, the skirmishing with the Klingons, and the Dominion war itself. However I find your numbers lacking accuracy for the Death Star II and everything associated with it. The battlestation was built only to 50 percent structural completion at least 5 years ABY according to the ANH novelization. Even if fully complete, a 160 km DS is volumetrically 2.144e15 cubic meters. An ISD, on the other hand is nearly 70 million cubic meters. Thus "only" 30,638,008 ISDs could be built for one DS in the most optimal interpretation. Which is still impressive, but nowhere even remotely close to "hundreds of billions". Realistically, the DSII nets you about around 15-16 million ISDs given that it was only half finished at the time of the Battle of Endor. As has been addressed in other threads, it's unknown if the DS construction can be applied to other things, just as Warsies claim that ST can't apply the material and construction of the massive Spacedock and SB 74-type space stations to regular Federation starship numbers.

As for secrecy, we have no idea how many Federation ships were built in total secrecy, if that even has any actually meaning to anything. The Empire itself was unable to keep the first DS a secret in 23 years of construction, and it is unknown, Palpatine's help aside, if he could have kept the second one a secret for much longer. And also as has been demonstrated in the highest canon of the movies and the TCW, the Outer Rim is not the outer edge of the SW Galaxy, it is much closer in, somewhere between the core
and rim. Furthermore, remember that the Federation has also done a great many things in total secrecy as well, too. Section 31's efforts, and the outfitting of Deep Space Nine with enhanced shielding and weapons such that even the Federation's closest allies did not know it was being done are just a few examples.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

Star Wars has industrial supremacy over Star Trek by sheer virtue of being a thousand times larger and hyperdrive.

yeah that's why they could only field half a million clones and the largest fleets we ever saw had a few dozen vessels in them and why a few million more clones would of bankrupted the republic

Granted, in an equal, one planet scenario of equal populations, Star Trek might have the advantage due to replication technology and transporters.

population densities are likely larger on individual worlds with imperial planets being more numerous but smaller

]But in a war, the Empire; or any major Star Wars faction, outproduces the Federation by the same margin in which a united Modern World would outproduce the Roman Empire, based on GDP.

not supported by films or tv show

meanwhile the federations industrial might allows them to revive dead stars mass convert mars like worlds into earth like paradises in short order is able too within several months to a year go from having a small fleet to considering the loss of hundreds of vessels not much trouble...could field after fighting for an extended period of time filed thousands of vessels...to tens of thousands is easily able to build massive stations that make ISD's look fucking puny

seriously the pinnacle of one universes engineering was building a gargantuan eye ball that does the job..one or two Fed ships can do (ie kill a planetary population) only louder and in a more awesome manner, the other universes pinnacle of achievement?

fucking reviving a star system...seriously now

The building of the Death Star is evidence of this; in comparison, the Federation in full military mobilization built tens of thousands of <1000 meter long ships, whereas the Empire in secret built the Death Star 2, massing literally hundreds billions of 1600 meter star destroyers, to 60% completion in 6 months...in the Outer Rim.

the building of the the deathstar is evidence of an outdated philosophy and the first one took a fucking long ass time the second one likely involving vast financial bankruptcy and mass slave labor by special ed sith lord

[Mr. Oragahn]

Part of the rules of punctuation is also to use capital letters and a fair amount of periods. ;)

[Admiral Breetai]

Part of the rules of punctuation is also to use capital letters and a fair amount of periods. ;)

when pigs fly mang!!

[Praeothmin]

Mike, I truly do not agree that building even half the DS II in secret can be compared to the Federation upgrading systems in DS9.
The station wasn't hidden for a while, and the commercial operations never stopped, so the fact that they managed to upgrade weapons and shields totally un-noticed is impressive, but less so than the equivalent 15 million ISDs in material, manpower and equipment...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Huh? A number you pulled out of nowhere,

The Galactic Empire had a million worlds according to Tarkin, as many as 50 million or even 100 million according to EU sources. The most planets the Federation has ever been stated to have is a thousand.

and a statement about hyperdrive that is patently false. We know that the Empire has the "home advantage". That's only natural since they've had the thousands of years to scout and maintain the hyperlanes necessary to have very fast hyperspace travel in their galaxy. Without such things, hyperdrive is no better than warp drive in uncharted territory, in fact, fairly worse because they can't use it until a proper charting is done whereas warp drive can be used, but you're headway is very slow. So home advantage to SW, and home advantage to ST.

Which explains how Obi Wan was able to get to Kamino in speeds impossible for ST conventional warp, despite Kamino having been erased from all known databanks, how?

Again, all of this was debunked. There is nothing to show for that throughout most of SW's history until the coming of Palpatine, the Clone Wars, and the Galactic Empire. But need we remind you that the Galactic Republic was essentially at risk of being bankrupted by that war, and all over the purchasing of just 5 million extra clones.

Which is impossible, because the government would have to have spent trillions of times more money every year just to feed its citizens. The idea that a galactic government cannot support 5 million clone troopers is impossible, because if that were, true, it would have collapsed long ago.

It's a logical fallacy, whoever came up with the 5 million clone army figure.

If 5 million credits severely stressed out the Galactic Republic:

How did the Galactic Empire build the Death Star 2 in secret?
How did the Republic build and maintain buildings, roads, medical services, etc?
How did the Republic maintain and support a security force sufficient to police the galaxy?
How did the Republic grow to become the dominant power in the galaxy when, based on the 5 million clone army and being supposedly bankrupted from it, a 21st century nation state would have more resources than it?

There are also contradictions in the clone army figures:

The Republic quickly ordered 1000 Acclamator star destroyers at the start of the war. Based on the crew of the Acclamators, that would imply >10 million clone troopers. Why clone troopers, you ask? Ironically, Karen Traviss confirmed that Acclamators are fully crewed by clone troopers.

The Ladybrinth of Evil states that shock troopers had an omnipresent presence on Coruscant, meaning that the clones on Coruscant alone would have to literally be in the billions.

In Inside the Worlds of Star Wars: Attack of the Clones, the GAR was stated to have millions of clone divisions.

The ROTS ICS states Grand Armies as if they were plural.

This is illogical to say the least. The Federation built many thousands of ships to be sure. The numbers of Dominion and allied ships suggest possibly tens of thousands within 3 years of fighting the second Borg invasion, the skirmishing with the Klingons, and the Dominion war itself. However I find your numbers lacking accuracy for the Death Star II and everything associated with it. The battlestation was built only to 50 percent structural completion at least 5 years ABY according to the ANH novelization. Even if fully complete, a 160 km DS is volumetrically 2.144e15 cubic meters. An ISD, on the other hand is nearly 70 million cubic meters. Thus "only" 30,638,008 ISDs could be built for one DS in the most optimal interpretation. Which is still impressive, but nowhere even remotely close to "hundreds of billions". Realistically, the DSII nets you about around 15-16 million ISDs given that it was only half finished at the time of the Battle of Endor. As has been addressed in other threads, it's unknown if the DS construction can be applied to other things, just as Warsies claim that ST can't apply the material and construction of the massive Spacedock and SB 74-type space stations to regular Federation starship numbers.

The full scale war mobilization dominion/federation/etc. ship numbers do not volumetrically add up to anywhere near that of the Death Star 1 or 2.

The 160 km figure for the Death Star 2 is false. Why? Because we know that the Death Star 2 was bigger than the first one, and the first one was 160 km. Therefore, the 900 km figure is accurate because the Death Star 2 was stated to be larger.

As for secrecy, we have no idea how many Federation ships were built in total secrecy, if that even has any actually meaning to anything. The Empire itself was unable to keep the first DS a secret in 23 years of construction, and it is unknown, Palpatine's help aside, if he could have kept the second one a secret for much longer. And also as has been demonstrated in the highest canon of the movies and the TCW, the Outer Rim is not the outer edge of the SW Galaxy, it is much closer in, somewhere between the core
and rim. Furthermore, remember that the Federation has also done a great many things in total secrecy as well, too. Section 31's efforts, and the outfitting of Deep Space Nine with enhanced shielding and weapons such that even the Federation's closest allies did not know it was being done are just a few examples.
-Mike

...

You have no idea how fucking massive the Death Stars were, do you? The Empire built one in 6 months; or, depending on your sources, a few years, to 60% completion.

In the meantime, the Federation with several years of full scale war mobilization could churn out 5 digit ship numbers, most of which were smaller than 500 meters in length. Compared to a 160 km or 900 km battle station, constructed in secrecy in the outer rim in less than a year?

Can you honestly argue against Star Wars industrial superiority?

[Mike DiCenso]

The Galactic Empire had a million worlds according to Tarkin, as many as 50 million or even 100 million according to EU sources. The most planets the Federation has ever been stated to have is a thousand.

Incorrect, as usual. The Federation had at least one thousand worlds as of TOS' "Metamorphosis" in the 2260's, and given the context of what Kirk said to Cochrane, we might assume that was only Terran-held worlds. You keep missing that part where Kirk tells Cochrane that "we're on a thousands worlds and spreading out" part Thus, if all more than 150 worlds in the TNG-era had at least that many colonies and outpost worlds, the Federation would have well over 150,000 planets, perhaps not including protectorates and associate members.

Comversely, Tarkin's G-canon statement may include the totality of all the Empire's worlds, including all members, colonies, outposts, ect, and it being a G-canon quote, we can also safely assume it overrides all EU numbers as well. Furthermore, we know from the PT movies and their novelizations that the Galactic Republic had several tens of thousands of members, perhaps no more than 100,000 as per the TPM novelization. It would be a real stretch to assume that the Empire expanded in member worlds by a factor of ten or more in just 23 years.

Which explains how Obi Wan was able to get to Kamino in speeds impossible for ST conventional warp, despite Kamino having been erased from all known databanks, how?

Kamino and it's parent star were erased from the Jedi Archives, but not the stars surrounding it. For him to get there, all he had to do was make a jump through a hyperlane that took him to within a few light years of the Kaminoan system, and from there short hyper jumps, and perhaps make use of information given him by his friend Dex to do the rest of the navigation from there. It's not like he was going to that region totally blind.

Which is impossible, because the government would have to have spent trillions of times more money every year just to feed its citizens. The idea that a galactic government cannot support 5 million clone troopers is impossible, because if that were, true, it would have collapsed long ago.

It's a logical fallacy, whoever came up with the 5 million clone army figure.

If 5 million credits severely stressed out the Galactic Republic:

This is a fallacy on your part. First off, you assume here that 1 clone trooper = 1 credit. Ergo, it must be wrong and so you attempt to ignore the George Lucas approved canon fact. What it boils down to is that we have no clue what the cost of a clone trooper is, how much is training, since unlike the Dominion's Jem'Hadar, they cannot be grown quickly, nor immediately given the knowlege they need to fight within just 3 days of birth.
So training the CTs, supplying them with equipment, transporting them from place-to-place, ect all has an associated costs with it like any real-life product you can think of.

There are also contradictions in the clone army figures:

The Republic quickly ordered 1000 Acclamator star destroyers at the start of the war. Based on the crew of the Acclamators, that would imply >10 million clone troopers. Why clone troopers, you ask? Ironically, Karen Traviss confirmed that Acclamators are fully crewed by clone troopers.

The Ladybrinth of Evil states that shock troopers had an omnipresent presence on Coruscant, meaning that the clones on Coruscant alone would have to literally be in the billions.

In Inside the Worlds of Star Wars: Attack of the Clones, the GAR was stated to have millions of clone divisions.

The ROTS ICS states Grand Armies as if they were plural.

Here you go again mixing and matching your sources as if they were all equally the same, which they are not. All the ICS books, the EU books, everything, except the movies, novelizations, and the screenplays are subordinate to the TCW series. You can't get around this. The Galactic Republic and the CIS were both facing bankruptcy, and were seeking additional loans from the Banking Clan to fund their war efforts.

The full scale war mobilization dominion/federation/etc. ship numbers do not volumetrically add up to anywhere near that of the Death Star 1 or 2.

The 160 km figure for the Death Star 2 is false. Why? Because we know that the Death Star 2 was bigger than the first one, and the first one was 160 km. Therefore, the 900 km figure is accurate because the Death Star 2 was stated to be larger.

This again is all false. Tens of thousands of starships, and who knows how many starbases and other facilities built among the various factions may actually equal the first, if not the second Death Star in volume/mass. We certainly know from Star Trek 2009 that the Romulans were able to construct an 8-12 km long mining ship, and the 23rd century Federation when given reason to do so constructed the 700-1100 meter Constitution-class as well as at least a dozen other classes of starships of similar size.

The 160 km number is not false, it is based on all proper G-canon scalings of the battlestation. The 900 km number is based on an off-the-cuff statement by an ILM guy who hadn't even seen the script yet, much less anything else, and the same guy even states that the first Death Star was only "miles across". Anything else is dishonest cherrypicking.

You have no idea how fucking massive the Death Stars were, do you? The Empire built one in 6 months; or, depending on your sources, a few years, to 60% completion.

In the meantime, the Federation with several years of full scale war mobilization could churn out 5 digit ship numbers, most of which were smaller than 500 meters in length. Compared to a 160 km or 900 km battle station, constructed in secrecy in the outer rim in less than a year?

Can you honestly argue against Star Wars industrial superiority?

No one is actually arguing against it, just against the over-inflated numbers from a group that is obsessed with their idea of what it should be and ignore all other contrary evidence, no matter what the source may be. Given the Galactic Republic's near-bankruptcy during the Clone Wars, we have no idea what it may have truly cost the Empire to build the Death Stars. That price may have been too high for far too little actual return.
-Mike