Another turbolaser calculation

[StarWarsStarTrek]

The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology mentions that the KDY planetary turbolaser cannon can duel evenly with a star destroyer, and that a single shot can power a large city for a day.

How large is a large city in Star Wars?

Tipoca City spans over 100 kilometers in length, and it isn't a particularly large city, being the capital of the rather secluded Kamino and not having much living quarters. Still we can assume a low end estimate of a large city in Star Wars to be 100 km by 100 km in area.

Let's think about population. The density of New York City is 10,630/km squared. A large Star Wars city might be at least 10,000 km^2 based on the previous paragraph, so we can assume a ground level population of 106,300,000.

But Star Wars cities have a huge vertical component to them, as shown by the several km tall skyscrapers in Coruscant. Before you wave that off as exclusive to Coruscant, said skyscrapers are also mentioned in other planets such as Corellia, so they are by no means only in Coruscant; that would be ridiculous to have super tall skyscrapers only preside on a single planet out of a galactic civilization.

Most skyscrapers are around 100 meters tall, so all civilians would live more or less within 100 meters of the ground. If we assume a maximum living level of 2 km for a large Star Wars city; possibly low end, given the mention of 20,000 feet skyscrapers, compared to the maximum living level of 100 meters or so for New York City, we'd get another multiplier of 20.

That gets us to 2,126,000,000 people. Which isn't as crazy as it sounds, in a large, industrialized city in a galaxy spanning civilization.

The average person in the US uses about 3.5 times 10^11 joules per year. Divide that by 365 and you get about 963,521,323 joules per day, or about 9.635 * 10^8 joules per day.

Times 2,126,000,000, and you get 2.04844633 × 10^18 joules.

But this is assuming that the average Star Wars citizen in a large city would use as much as an average citizen in the United States, which is very, very low end. So let's factor in stuff like:

Airspeeders
Holograms
Spacecraft taking off and landing
Droids

The airspeeders and spacecraft in particular would take an enormous amount of energy. Airspeeders in Star Wars are as common as cars today, but take up far, far, far more energy. Spacecraft routinely reach escape velocity within a minute, and are fairly common in Star Wars.

Therefore, let's multiply the energy consumption by 10. If you were to actually calculate the rough energy needed for airspeeders to work and for spacecrafts to routinely enter and leave orbit and into a large city, which would mean thousands per day and tens of millions of airspeeders flying around and consuming massive amounts of energy, you'd probably get an even higher multiplier.

2.04844633 × 10^19 joules.

That's about 4.9 gigatons of tnt.





And a lot of people may deny the canon status of Star Wars guidebooks. If you do, then that's your stance, ok. Please, I don't want this thread to turn into a huge debate over canon status.

[Admiral Breetai]

your calculation is invalid due to the films themselves not supporting those numbers or anything close to even double digit megatons -you are obligated to work with the highest source of canon which are the films if you have a problem with that don't make any calcs

[User1555]

There are so many assumptions in that post it is ridiculous. Firstly, you are assuming that the 'large city' is not referring to a 'large city' by real-life standards. Secondly, you are making wild claims as to what constitutes a 'large' city in Star Wars. The only solid figure you can give is that there is a city in SW EU that is 100 km long. You do not provide proof that it is also 100 km square. You do not provide proof that this city is considered 'large' by SW standards (as opposed to tiny, average, or massive). For all the solid information you have provided, Theed could be considered a 'large' city. Also, I'm also pretty sure that when people talk about 'powering a city' they usually mean the utilities, not the cars etc, unless stated otherwise.

And of course, there is the fact that (as Breetai pointed out) "your calculation is invalid due to the films themselves not supporting those numbers or anything close to even double digit megatons"

[Admiral Breetai]

to add to aurochs contribution the films show a very wide spread population living in cities on worlds not in the inner rims or the capital with numbers likely not higher than several hundred million with the average possibly being several hundred thousand to a few million Naboo being a major sector world had lavish cities and wide vast open spaces and a garrison of droids numbering in the thousands could take hold of the capital city and shut it all down

hell the Gungan species was fucking puny in numbers judging by onscreen evidence

do you have any proof from the films to support your calcs or hell the city you used to make your "assumptions" I say this because it's less a calc and more a big honking conclusion based off leaping and dancing

[Mike DiCenso]

Tipoca city seen here. Not really all that impressive looking. In fact, given the way it looks in AoTC, it's rather unimpressive. Other than a questionable statement in a source book, is there anything that indicates 100 km for the place?
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

LOL yeah there are modern major and medium sized cities larger than Tipoca not seeing gigaton energy generation there

[Jedi Master Spock]

NYC burns through about 50 TWh annually if I'm not greatly mistaken. (That's a bit over 40 megatons.)

Large vehicles seem to rely on liquid fuel, generally, i.e., not the power grid, but there are still elements of SW life which actually involve higher electric power consumption. Let's give a couple figures for plugging in a droid.

For reference, ASIMO runs on about 1 horsepower (800 watts, give or take). The power systems have been upgraded, but let's say that your generic C3P0 runs on about 1 kW.

Then the generic droid would require 30 GJ of energy per year of continuous operation. Multiply that by ten million for New Yorkers to have droids filling their needs and you have 300 PJ - 70 megatons - added.

Droids, like humans, aren't continuously operated on top speed, and SW droids may be sufficiently mechanically advanced to have similar efficiency to biological critters. A generic human consumes about 9 megajoules per day - a figure which averages out to around 100 watts (10% of ASIMO's peak power output and less than 10% of the peak power output of a comparably-sized athletic human). That would still, however, be 7 megatons per year for ten million droids. Conclusion? The efficiency and population of droids is a major factor in this estimate.

10x the energy consumption is a bit of a stretch from what we've seen - it's at the upper end of believable. This isn't Star Trek with replicators, full-feature holodecks, and transporter beams; there are droid servants and workers, the occasional floating piece of furniture, and the odd vibrating mop.

I think I saw a similar calculation from Wong once. The punchline of all of this is that 5 gigatons for a planetary turbolaser that, all by its lonesome, can duel with a Star Destroyer is - even if a heavily cooked figure - totally incompatible with the ICS figures. By ICS figures, a Star Destroyer should be able to basically ignore mere 5 gigaton shots. After all, a puny little Acclamator pumps quad salvos of 50 gigaton bolts out its alleged guns.

(Wasn't there a debate at some point where someone tried to find the guns in the actual movie footage?)

[Mike DiCenso]

(Wasn't there a debate at some point where someone tried to find the guns in the actual movie footage?)

Yes, several threads, both here at SFJN and SBC. Not a single person found any in either the movie or TCW footage, though a couple of the usual suspects tried to claim gun mounts and cannons were there, and that there were variant Acclamators, ect.
-Mike

[Trinoya]

On a pure side note that is semi-related.

I find it interesting that on Naboo we know that they had to ration electricity during the war or some such. There were actual shortages of the resource.

Now while it may not seem relevant it raises a question of just how much power is consumed that it may have to be 'rationed' in such a society. Perhaps dedicated power resources had to go to shipyards or space ports to help with the war effort, Perhaps Naboo doesn't generate large amounts of energy in the first place for 'private' use and only gives some to the general populace, instead letting them generate it with private generators (like the portable one in TESB that was used for R2).

The big point making is there is clearly going to be a subjective nature to how much energy is produced.. it could be a wildly high number due to the nature of industry, or it would be a wildly small number, due to low need.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

There are so many assumptions in that post it is ridiculous. Firstly, you are assuming that the 'large city' is not referring to a 'large city' by real-life standards. Secondly, you are making wild claims as to what constitutes a 'large' city in Star Wars. The only solid figure you can give is that there is a city in SW EU that is 100 km long. You do not provide proof that it is also 100 km square. You do not provide proof that this city is considered 'large' by SW standards (as opposed to tiny, average, or massive). For all the solid information you have provided, Theed could be considered a 'large' city. Also, I'm also pretty sure that when people talk about 'powering a city' they usually mean the utilities, not the cars etc, unless stated otherwise.

And of course, there is the fact that (as Breetai pointed out) "your calculation is invalid due to the films themselves not supporting those numbers or anything close to even double digit megatons"

Edit: As Star Wars sources do not break the fourth wall, it cannot be referring to a modern large city.

Topica City is not that large by SW standards. Sources state that most of the room is used for scientific purposes, and there were no notable crowds when Obi Wan arrived. In addition, Kamino was seclusive, something that could not be possible if it were exceedingly.


For the 10x figure, the energy consumption of the US has, iirc, increased several times in the past century. Some scientists estimate a 1% average increase per year, and that in under 100 years humanity will be a type 1 civilization. Said scientist listed the Empore as a type 3.

A GALACTIC civilization having ten times the energy per capita of a pre massed space flight society is indeed very low end.

[sonofccn]

Topica City is not that large by SW standards.Sources state that most of the room is used for scientific purposes, and there were no notable crowds when Obi Wan arrived. In addition, Kamino was seclusive, something that could not be possible if it were exceedingly.

Well according to this page Tipoca isn't a city as we might define it. Almost all of the citizens comute to the blasted thing and appears to be mostly a manufacturing/training/storage area for clones. So there being no crowds has no relation if it is unusually big or not. In addition in your calculations you used this city's stated lenght and began speculating on towers when Tipoca doesn't appear to have them in a traditional sense or appear designed to maximize population denisty.

For the 10x figure, the energy consumption of the US has, iirc, increased several times in the past century. Some scientists estimate a 1% average increase per year, and that in under 100 years humanity will be a type 1 civilization. Said scientist listed the Empore as a type 3.

Well for starters I have always found the Kardashev scale an extremely poor fit for sci-fi factions, even in the real world it would be at best only a very rough guideline more than a hard, fast ranking. How does power consumption rank against magitek for instances like time travel, matter-energy conversion, etc. For instances I doubt the Federation ranks above a flat type I but am willing to bet they could beat the snot out of any type II civilization as defined by the scale.

However to the meat of the matter, the Empire a type III? Seriously? Is there a shred of evidence they harness the entire power of a freaking galaxy? Beyond, perhaps, a strict interperitation of the Death Star as a DET weapon and the assumption that this special, one and a half kind wonderweapon is typical of the Empire at large.

A GALACTIC civilization having ten times the energy per capita of a pre massed space flight society is indeed very low end.

Being Galactic proves nothing, much less in fiction with writers having a poor grasp of scale to began with, what matters is the worlds within the domain. I didn't really see anything on Tatooine powerwise greater than Earth's ability to generate, in fact the place was a dump. Then theres Naboo which while far more pleasent didn't really appear to be sucking down the power to any great degree.

[Admiral Breetai]

Edit: As Star Wars sources do not break the fourth wall, it cannot be referring to a modern large city.

lol your not even using a valid source

Topica City is not that large by SW standards. Sources state that most of the room is used for scientific purposes, and there were no notable crowds when Obi Wan arrived. In addition, Kamino was seclusive, something that could not be possible if it were exceedingly.

bullshit it's at best "average" as far as the films go with cloud city and the capital being noted exceptions

For the 10x figure, the energy consumption of the US has, iirc, increased several times in the past century. Some scientists estimate a 1% average increase per year, and that in under 100 years humanity will be a type 1 civilization. Said scientist listed the Empore as a type 3.

why does this matter?

A GALACTIC civilization having ten times the energy per capita of a pre massed space flight society is indeed very low end.

a very primitive barely galactic in the loosest term that only control any where from twenty to thirty percent..sure

However to the meat of the matter, the Empire a type III? Seriously? Is there a shred of evidence they harness the entire power of a freaking galaxy?

there is nothing putting SW in typeIIIis absolutely asinine the Shi'ar empire is a genuine type three (maybe low four)and it's got tech that allows for things such as firing weapons through suns to BDZ a planet on the other side because it's easier then actually steering your ship around the sun (and the captain wanted to show off) and do things like power their larger cap ships and star bases by essentially tapping into another universe that's being created and then bleeding off it's big bang some what to power your shit

oh and ship mounted gatling guns that fire mini blackholes...as per another type3 civi

that's the kinda crap high tier space civis do..neither SW nor ST come remotely close to type three it's absolutely asinine to think they are and trollish to even cite something that suggests so I mean we both have watched our fair share of both series haven't we ? did you see anything remotely on the level I'm describing?

[sonofccn]

that's the kinda crap high tier space civis do..neither SW nor ST come remotely close to type three it's absolutely asinine to think they are and trollish to even cite something that suggests so I mean we both have watched our fair share of both series haven't we ? did you see anything remotely on the level I'm describing?

If your talking to me I don't believe the GE is a type III, and again don't feel that scale works for fiction, and did not intend to suggest that I agreed with that ranking. My question was meant to be taken rhetorically not as a actual statment of inquiry.

[Mike DiCenso]

From Wikipedia's article:


Energy is a static quantity and is denoted in joules. Power is a measure of energy transfer over time, and is denoted in watts (joules per second). The three levels of the Kardashev Scale can be quantified in units of power (watts) and plotted on an increasing logarithmic scale.

Type I — a civilization that is able to harness all of the power available on a single planet — has approximately 1016 or 1017 W available.[3] Earth specifically has an available power of 1.74 ×1017 W (174 peta watts, see Earth's energy budget). Kardashev's original definition was 4 ×1012 W — a "technological level close to the level presently attained on earth" ("presently" meaning 1964).[4]

Type II — a civilization that is able to harness all of the power available from a single star, approximately 4 ×1026 W.[3] Again, this figure is variable; the Sun outputs approximately 3.86 ×1026 W. Kardashev's original definition was also 4 ×1026 W.[4]

Type III — a civilization that is able to harness all of the power available from a single galaxy, approximately 4 ×1037 W.[3] This figure is extremely variable, since galaxies vary widely in size; the stated figure is the approximate power output of the Milky Way. Kardashev's original definition was also 4 ×1037 W.

Using nuclear explosion tests as a perspective, Tsar Bomba, the largest nuclear weapon ever detonated, released an estimated 57 megaton yield; a Type I civilization makes use of roughly 25 megatons of TNT equivalent a second, the equivalent of one Tsar Bomba every 2.3 seconds. A Type II civilization controls 4 × 109 times more energy (4 billion hydrogen bombs per second), and a Type III 1011 times more yet.

By the definitions given here, and what we know properly about both the Federation and Galactic Empire's abilities to harness power, they would easily qualify as Type II's, and borderline into Type III's, depending on how you want to define the power useage of typical technologies. Also the Death Stars, as we have seen in the EU novel, as well as the movies and their novelizations, does not place the Empire at Type III since it clearly does not require the battlestations to generate anywhere near 4 x 10e37 watts with superlaser being a chain-reaction weapon of some sort. In the extremely best case scenario 1e29 W.
-Mike

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Evidence for Death Star being a chain reaction weapon = 0




On Star Wars power generation, it is highly plausible that their power generation approaches in the OOM sense 10^37 watts. Star Wars is likely in between a Type 2 and a Type 3 civilization.

Star Trek is likely in between a Type 1 and a Type 2 civilization. The Enterprise produces about 10^19 watts; does the entire Federation produce ten million Enterprises? Probably. So it's likely a Type 2.





On my calculations, I have decently justified my calculations. Tipoca City is not large, so it is reasonable for a large city in Star Wars to be at least 100 km by 100 km. Assuming New York population densities and factoring into account the verticle factor of Star Wars cities, you get a deduced population of over a billion. Then, you already have a power generation of 10^18 watts, which is using the energy per capita of the US; that includes rural farmers and the like.


I used a 10x multiplier that is completely reasonable:



Energy consumption has doubled in just 50 years. Are you saying that the gap between our civilization today and a Galactic civilization will be less than 10x in energy consumption? It's likely to be far, far more, but I'm being low end here.

And you get 10^19 watts, about on par with the entire Enterprise.