Star Wars Industrial supremacy fact or fairy tale?

[Praeothmin]

What? How? Runabouts are warp-driven ships, even the shuttles in TNG are warp-driven.

I'm talking about their FTL.
The Falcon, about the length of a runabout, is much faster at FTL, just like an X-Wing in Hyperspace...

SW Droids can't think, as Obi-wan told Dax; R2-D2 is an exception.

Really?
How about C3PO?
How about R4 in TCW, who outthought Anakin while working for Grievious?
When Obi-Wan told Dax Droids couldn't think, he was just coming back from using an analysis droid, a limited construct, just like the E-D's computer.
While the Doctor in Voyager could think, as it was programmed, the ship's computer still could not...

people have outgrown violence, and only use it when attacked with no choice,

I'm sure Section 31 is truly non-violent... :)

thats ridiculous, ST would never recognize a right to contrain liberty

Depends...
The Republic did not recognize the blockade as legal either, thus why they send two Jedi to "negociate" for the blockade to stop...
It simply did not want to go to war with the Trade Federation over a single planet.
The Federation did war with Cardassia, but then, when they wanted the war to end, they negociated a treaty, and gave many Federation colonies to Cardassia to stop the war, displaving many people from their homes.
Was that not containing these settlers' liberty?

[sonofccn]

The Falcon, about the length of a runabout, is much faster at FTL

Well to be fair the Falcon is the fasted hunk o' junk in the galaxy and Han, well okay Chewie but Han supervised gosh darn it, has made a lot of special modifcations to it. That isn't a typical example. :)

just like an X-Wing in Hyperspace...

At least in one example I would agree.

Really?
How about C3PO?
How about R4 in TCW, who outthought Anakin while working for Grievious?
When Obi-Wan told Dax Droids couldn't think, he was just coming back from using an analysis droid, a limited construct, just like the E-D's computer.
While the Doctor in Voyager could think, as it was programmed, the ship's computer still could not...

While robots are more intergrated into their society in terms of critical thinking I'd have to agree with Obi-wan at least as a general rule or not very well at least. There are very blatant exceptions but are they really more numerous than the exceptional holo-people? Any of the EMH's, Vic, Moriarty?

[User1602]

What? How? Runabouts are warp-driven ships, even the shuttles in TNG are warp-driven.

I'm talking about their FTL.
The Falcon, about the length of a runabout, is much faster at FTL, just like an X-Wing in Hyperspace...

Without space-lanes, the MF can only do .5 past lghtspeed (in the novel he said .5 factors, so I'd say Warp factor 1.5 at most, which sounds about right for simple fusion-powered hyperdrive vs. the advanced warp-engine design and anti-matter power of the Federation ships).

SW Droids can't think, as Obi-wan told Dax; R2-D2 is an exception.

Really?
How about C3PO?

He doesn't think, and in fact he observed that R2-D2 did a lot of thinking for a mechanic.

How about R4 in TCW, who outthought Anakin while working for Grievious?

Which contradicts the G-canon which says that droids can't think.
Of course a child's cartoon is naturally going to be more anthropomorphic than the movies, and such things must be disregarded accordingly as contradicting.

When Obi-Wan told Dax Droids couldn't think, he was just coming back from using an analysis droid, a limited construct, just like the E-D's computer.

He was talking about droids in general, not just research-droids; there's no reason that research droids would be limited in terms of identifying things, since that was their purpose.
In the cut-scene, the droids said that it must have been custom-made by a bounty-hunter, when in reality it was a Kamino saber-dart; and the producers said they cut it because it simply didn't add any new info, so I'd call it canon.

While the Doctor in Voyager could think, as it was programmed, the ship's computer still could not...

By design; they had a bad experience with that involving the M-5.

people have outgrown violence, and only use it when attacked with no choice,

I'm sure Section 31 is truly non-violent... :)

I said "when attacked with no choice." As I've seen, Section 31 was acting purely in defense of the Federation; they simply operate in a classified manner as required by military secrecy.
They're also portrayed in a bad light, as an exceptional case of shadow-government within the Federation, left over from darker times on the basis of necessity; it's also to show that the Federation isn't perfect. However this is a far cry from the simplistic black-and-white extremes of Star Wars.

thats ridiculous, ST would never recognize a right to contrain liberty

Depends...
The Republic did not recognize the blockade as legal either, thus why they send two Jedi to "negociate" for the blockade to stop...

Theydid not say it was illegal. The Trade Federation reminded the Jedi that it was "perfectly legal," and the Jedi came to negotiate a compromise.
It was only when Darth Sidious ordered them killed, that the Qui-gon and Obi-wan went into "aggressive negotiations."

It simply did not want to go to war with the Trade Federation over a single planet.

No, it went to war over the separatist worlds, to halt those planets from leaving the Republic. That's why Palpatine agitated for the separation, in order to create fear of anarchy to force the people to choose tyranny.

The Federation did war with Cardassia, but then, when they wanted the war to end, they negociated a treaty, and gave many Federation colonies to Cardassia to stop the war, displaving many people from their homes.
Was that not containing these settlers' liberty?

I'm not sure about the context regarding that situation.
I don't know whether the settlers were ever never recognized as owning those planets, or whether the Federation simply stopped protecting htem.

In either event, the Federation seemed to be aiding the Cardassians, and the Maquis was fighting back against Cardassian cruelty. If so, this marks a departure from Roddemberry's Trek philosophy which I don't defend.

[Mr. Oragahn]

For machines that can't think, I believe R2 has some wicked sense of humour and is quite clever when on his own.
He's actually smarter than Pikachu and chirps a lot.

[Mike DiCenso]

Which contradicts the G-canon which says that droids can't think. Of course a child's cartoon is naturally going to be more anthropomorphic than the movies, and such things must be disregarded accordingly as contradicting.

It's not necessarily a contradiction, if you take the viewpoint that this is a form of "racism" on the part of organics towards droids. If R4, Artoo, and Threepio have not had any memory wipes, then they can and do develop personalities and full sapiance, which in turn makes memory wipes a horrific criminal act as you are essentially "killing" a fully aware being, and then leaving a newborn in it's place.

I mean, for chrissake, they TORTURE droids in Jabba's palace. They give the droids the ability to feel pain so they can do that. We had a thread about all this a while back in the "Slavery In the Star Wars Universe" thread nearly two years ago. I recommend reading it, as many interesting issues were brought up about how cavalierly it's treated as a subject by people in the SW universe. This includes not only the use of droids as slaves, but the poor Clone troopers, who are human beings forced to fight a war that they are specifically grown for like Dominion's Jem'Hadar, and programmed so that against their will, they will turn on friends and mentors (the Jedi) at the push of the proverbial button.
-Mike

[User1602]

For machines that can't think, I believe R2 has some wicked sense of humour and is quite clever when on his own.
He's actually smarter than Pikachu and chirps a lot.

Yes, I said R2 was an exception. He can certainly think independently for a droid.

[User1602]

Which contradicts the G-canon which says that droids can't think. Of course a child's cartoon is naturally going to be more anthropomorphic than the movies, and such things must be disregarded accordingly as contradicting.

It's not necessarily a contradiction, if you take the viewpoint that this is a form of "racism" on the part of organics towards droids. If R4, Artoo, and Threepio have not had any memory wipes, then they can and do develop personalities and full sapiance, which in turn makes memory wipes a horrific criminal act as you are essentially "killing" a fully aware being, and then leaving a newborn in it's place.

I mean, for chrissake, they TORTURE droids in Jabba's palace. They give the droids the ability to feel pain so they can do that. We had a thread about all this a while back in the "Slavery In the Star Wars Universe" thread nearly two years ago. I recommend reading it, as many interesting issues were brought up about how cavalierly it's treated as a subject by people in the SW universe. This includes not only the use of droids as slaves, but the poor Clone troopers, who are human beings forced to fight a war that they are specifically grown for like Dominion Jem'Hadar, and programmed so that against their will, they will turn on friends and mentors (the Jedi) at the push of the proverbial button.
-Mike

Just because droids can feel pain, doesn't mean they can think. Mice can feel pain too-- can they think? Droids just aren't at that level beyond simply mimicking actual intelligence; that much is obvious from watching the battle-droids.
As for the clone troopers, they were also genetically modified to obey any order, so it would be hard to say they were slaves. They're like the cows in "Restaurant at the end of the Universe," which are bred to want to be made into steaks; so they'd come to your table and talk to you about which cuts of meat from their body were most delicious, then they'd go back to the kitchen and be happily made into dinner.

[Mike DiCenso]

I disagree. The Clone troopers are born as slaves. They did not ask to be that way, and they were given no choice in the matter.

As for the droids, if you read the thread, the issue of sentience verus sapience for droids is what you are bringing up. However you look at it, droids are creatures that are aware enough that they feel pain and have some understanding of their enviroment. Furthermore, as demonstrated with the droids brought up in this thread, such as Artoo and Threepio, the have the capacity given time of becoming fully self-aware beings. Thus what happens to them is a crime.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

I said "when attacked with no choice." As I've seen, Section 31 was acting purely in defense of the Federation; they simply operate in a classified manner as required by military secrecy.]

defending themselves? facilitating the plant of a Romulan Spy in the senate in an active bid to control Imperial politics putting a genocidal virus inside Odo and nearly succeeding in the complete extermination of a species?

helping the Klingons with the augment virus for reasons I can only assume are "to destabilize the empire and hope a fuck load of them die"

either being directly responsible for or facilitating the faction that spawned the pegasus disaster?

these are not defensive these are radically aggressive subversive extremely dangerous and imperialist individuals who seem to involve high ranking officials both in the private and political sector-they also have wide spread support inside the federation and a dedicated cover up is always made

They're also portrayed in a bad light, as an exceptional case of shadow-government within the Federation, left over from darker times on the basis of necessity; it's also to show that the Federation isn't perfect. However this is a far cry from the simplistic black-and-white extremes of Star Wars.]

they are portrayed in a bad light by the idealistic starfleet officers and Sisko who despite in the pale moon light is a deeply morally righteous man..by the blowhard that was Archer and by any one associated with the main cast...

but we've also seen the majority of the CnC either knows about them..or is directly involved with them to varying degrees...and we've seen repeatedly that various civilian and military men within star-fleet..not only share the groups way of thinking but have acted with..complete or limited backing or maybe indirectly but certainly with their knowledge

even the federation has its darker aspects and it seems theres been a dedicated effort to show that up in recent years mind you..its incredibly well restrained..and usually some what justified

In either event, the Federation seemed to be aiding the Cardassians, and the Maquis was fighting back against Cardassian cruelty. If so, this marks a departure from Roddemberry's Trek philosophy which I don't defend.

it was a minor border Skirmish that so badly crippled Cardassia that there was wide spread famine and starvation..they had to hock much of what remained of their history to support the war

a war that the Feds barely noticed outside of a few main characters who where directly involved in and they gave away border worlds of rather limited value...the reason why the Cardassians got supported by the Feds against the Maquis is because the Fedz warned them about the dangers of Cardassian rule and told them they'd relocate them scott free

they refused and thus kinda screwed themselves the feds and the spoonheads

[mojo]

i'm very interested in the idea that the droids are incapable of thought with r2 as a lone exception. wasn't he just a plain old astromech? i always thought he was capable of more independent thought just because he never gets mindwiped. i admit i take that assumption from the eu, though, where it's just flatly stated.
but what's more interesting to me is the idea that r2 is some amazing exception? why just him? do you really think no other droids could reach that level of independent thought? it would be very interesting and worth the necro if this guy went to that other, years old thread.

[sonofccn]

defending themselves? facilitating the plant of a Romulan Spy in the senate in an active bid to control Imperial politics putting a genocidal virus inside Odo and nearly succeeding in the complete extermination of a species?

helping the Klingons with the augment virus for reasons I can only assume are "to destabilize the empire and hope a fuck load of them die"

either being directly responsible for or facilitating the faction that spawned the pegasus disaster?

these are not defensive these are radically aggressive subversive extremely dangerous and imperialist individuals who seem to involve high ranking officials both in the private and political sector-they also have wide spread support inside the federation and a dedicated cover up is always made

While a far cry from Roddenberry's more Utopian vision section 31 actions are in defense of Federation interests as they see them. Highly aggressive yes, preemptive when ever possible and utterly remorseless but to my knowledge they only fight to enhance the Federation's interests. Ergo they are defensive through obviously not as the last resort my back is up against the wall sort "TrekPhilosopher" seems to have posulated.

[Praeothmin]

the MF can only do .5 past lghtspeed (in the novel he said .5 factors, so I'd say Warp factor 1.5

That's not what the movies show, so no, it's not Warp 1.5.
Point 5 past lightspeed is so obscure as far as what it means that symplifying it like you do is wrong...

He doesn't think, and in fact he observed that R2-D2 did a lot of thinking for a mechanic

Of course not...
"Why I put my neck out to you R2 is beyond me. No, I don't think he likes you, at all."

Which contradicts the G-canon which says that droids can't think.
Of course a child's cartoon is naturally going to be more anthropomorphic than the movies, and such things must be disregarded accordingly as contradicting.

A child's cartoon which is helmed by GL, and of which GL stated was part of his continuity, and which as as mature themes as the movies themselves...
So in SW, Droids can think...
Deal with it...

He was talking about droids in general, not just research-droids; there's no reason that research droids would be limited in terms of identifying things, since that was their purpose.

In frustration, after he came from seeing a research Droid, just like you would say "Man, truckers can't drive!" because one cut you off on the road.
It doesn't mean it's true, it simply comes from your frustration from being cut off, which leads you to generalization, which humans do sometimes...

By design; they had a bad experience with that involving the M-5.

Yes, they can design AIs, but they rarely use them.
The Doctor was an exception, and was created to be used only in emergency situations.
And in SW, they need to give droids memory whipes or else they devellop personnalities, which is also canon...

As I've seen, Section 31 was acting purely in defense of the Federation; they simply operate in a classified manner as required by military secrecy.

Yeah, Admiral Breetai took care of that argument... :)

it was a minor border Skirmish that so badly crippled Cardassia that there was wide spread famine and starvation..they had to hock much of what remained of their history to support the war

a war that the Feds barely noticed outside of a few main characters who where directly involved in and they gave away border worlds of rather limited value...

It wasn't a "minor skirmish", everyone who mentions it say it was a war.
If it had been a minor skirmish, the Federation woudl have had no reason to give wrolds to Cardassia, they could have simply bombed them into submission.
Yet they didn't, they chose to negociate, and in one episode they even do everything they can to stop a Federation Captain from firing at Cardassian ship for fear of the reprisal of this "minor skirmish"...

While robots are more intergrated into their society in terms of critical thinking I'd have to agree with Obi-wan at least as a general rule or not very well at least. There are very blatant exceptions but are they really more numerous than the exceptional holo-people? Any of the EMH's, Vic, Moriarty?

Again, Droids need periodical memory whipes or they do devellop personnalities.
And as for Moriarty, that was a mistake, Vic was only really and advanced program, with no real sentience, leaving the EMH as the only real programs with the ability to devellop sentience.
Remember the Doctor was not fully sentient at the beginning of Voyager, but he was allowed to grow that way by using him everyday.
The program develloped and develloped and eventually became such...

[Praeothmin]

While a far cry from Roddenberry's more Utopian vision section 31 actions are in defense of Federation interests as they see them. Highly aggressive yes, preemptive when ever possible and utterly remorseless but to my knowledge they only fight to enhance the Federation's interests. Ergo they are defensive through obviously not as the last resort my back is up against the wall sort "TrekPhilosopher" seems to have posulated.

Just like the CIA, who sometimes do horrible things supposedly in the name of the defense of the USA, while in reality they are advancing hidden agendas...

[Mr. Oragahn]

For machines that can't think, I believe R2 has some wicked sense of humour and is quite clever when on his own.
He's actually smarter than Pikachu and chirps a lot.

Yes, I said R2 was an exception. He can certainly think independently for a droid.

So can all other astromechs we saw in TCSW. C3PO is not a craftsman like his dustbin pal on wheels is, but he's more like an aristocrat that just lives for the sake of living. I've seen some time ago how some aristocratic old timers lived. With nothing else to do but just sit on their hands, they were as superficial as C3PO's reason to live, although all educated and easily offended by foul language.

[sonofccn]

While a far cry from Roddenberry's more Utopian vision section 31 actions are in defense of Federation interests as they see them. Highly aggressive yes, preemptive when ever possible and utterly remorseless but to my knowledge they only fight to enhance the Federation's interests. Ergo they are defensive through obviously not as the last resort my back is up against the wall sort "TrekPhilosopher" seems to have posulated.

Just like the CIA, who sometimes do horrible things supposedly in the name of the defense of the USA, while in reality they are advancing hidden agendas...

Well if you don't mind I'll think I'll just leave the CIA bit alone, this thread is off track enough already, but out of curosity do we have any evidence of section 31 members doing anything to benifite them specificly or for lack of a better word "client"?