At Admiral Breetai

[Admiral Breetai]

Actually, when questioned why, you said that you didn't need to say why, because it was unusuable, which is one of the most embarrassing rebuttals ever said in a vs debate. You said that my math isn't objective. Prove it, or concede.

it is invalid it is not a canon source i do not have to entertain it..and will not

Prove it. You haven't proven anything.

your conduct in this thread..your raging in the commentary thread your inability to answer the questions when we pointed out you messed up and your refusal to answer my questions regarding GL

all this comes off like when my nieces or nephews throw fits when things don't go there way and come on man..that's not the extent of your capabilities

c'mon sci fi fan/SWSt...I know you can be better than this!

[
[

Yet the Battle of Coruscant is still an example, and it matches the dominion war's numbers, only that the ships in the Battle of Coruscant and far larger.

no it does not...it matches from the looks of the fleet battle against DS9 in way of the warrior...maybe and while that certainly is impressive it does not speak to the numbers we see pretty casually later in the tv series

The novels mention "trillions of beings".

the novel I'm assuming was penned by Lucas? if so this is contradicted by whats seen on screen..but it is worth considering..only it seems to drop more nails on the coffin of they're economic dominance and makes no sense when measured up against the forces we saw deployed

It's shown in primary canon, aka the skyscrapers. Sure, the name "durasteel" isn't given, but the exact name is irrelevant. The fact is that it's strong enough to hold the weight of km long skyscrapers.

so you what? it's not mentioned but that aside how does this mark superiority to trek? I'd think creating hulls strong enough to briefly withstand skimming along the surface of the sun..and what have you is just as advance if not more so

Given that the buildings are modern, the construction of the recent buildings could not have been so long ago. Otherwise, it would be like the United States having constructed its skyscrapers hundreds of years ago.

are they modern? hell even in the EU that city has been around longer then the Jedi who had existed up until order 66 for some thirty thousand years..the SWU is a stagnant galaxy and in the movies we've been given no time frame for how long it's existed...we don't know if it's newly constructed or ancient...the republic had been around for "a thousand" generations by obi wans reckoning thats a long friggen time..was curoscant capital all that time?

Not to mention that they'd have to have been able to maintain them.

this is true and I will gladly concede this point to you..that takes an enormous amount of money and resources and manpower to do..which brings me to my next point

a planet like that really is wasteful man

Show me a single Star Trek battle, if you can, of a few thousand vessels with masses approaching star destroyers. You can't.

well considering they don't need to build ISD sized ships to get to the job done why is this being asked

and why are you talking thousands? no ISD battle group has ever been shown in the films to be that large

Bullshit. Replicators can make small things like coffee and such, but they can't construct spaceships. If you think they can, prove it. Show evidence.

.......industrial replicators have been a mainstay of the Trek galaxy for a good while the Dominion fleet sparse on supplies stuck in the AQ was able to hand Cardassia enough to completely remove all of they're massive financial and resource issues that they'd been having since they first appeared...and immediately after receiving these things..went on a wild ship building spree..and those defense platforms

this was something that Dominion had no problem handing out like candy even in deire straights and preparing to take on an industrial super power who was technologicaly nearly equal in this regard considering they offered the Bajorans more then they gave the Cardassians...and it was more then enough to solve all they're problems

the Feds possess tech like this too while not on the dommies level they have shown that this isn't an issue for them

Yes it is, because we've seen that replicators cannot replicate anything more complex than a cup of coffee or larger than...a household object.

we have seen personal replicators do this...never mind that Quarks gun smuggling friends apparently replicated all their weaponry...and luxury replicators aren't the same thing as industrial replicators

hell a more primitive versions of the 24 century replicator was seen in ENT..and the damn thing literally made a hull section appear out of thin air inside of a second

[

Prove it.

aside from ghetto worlds and rim worlds we've seen body counts and population figures given through out the dominion war that suggest a gargantuan population base...the concept of loosing nine hundred billion souls...while tragic and frightening..was not enough to force SFC to consider peace talks..if anything it pissed them off even more

Coruscant is so crowded that it fills up kms of vertical traffic that makes New York City seem like Canada. Basically, it's an entire planet surface with each inch being literally hundreds of times more busy than New York City.

why yes indeed it does..what does this have to do with my point about the capital being in the minority and not the standard

Provide evidence please.

blasting massive hull sections out of Borg cubes casually sawing comets in half one shotting an asteroid in one movie...cleaving entire sections out them in others a dead ship that was noted as being backwards by tng standards sitting in a huge asteroid field that was expressly noted as being debris from a planet that was pulverized casually firing yield free torps into a planet drilling through it to its core...doing the same thing with phasers in another ep...

in the Ep when Q was depowered the first thing Riker thought about doing when they saw that moon was to explode it and Data stated that it was impossible not because they couldn't do it but because it would rain debris and death on the citizens below

if you can crack a damn moon you can knock off the DS just fine

turning an earth like world into a brown dead planet to the extent of burning off even the oceans...inside of a second..really this isn't stuff one sees in the main canon of SW

Except that you admitted that the Battle of Coruscant approaches them. In fact, given that the battle was a surprise, with both sides only being able to muster what they could gather on a whim, and that the ships were far larger than Star Trek ships, this is more impressive than the dominion battles.

the battle was a last ditch effort gathering resources from all over the CIS in a desperate bid to continue to the war...more then normal would of been present there...and these numbers aren't seen in the empire era..the closest thing would be the fleet from TESB which comes closer to wolf 359 in size then say way of the warrior..or sacrifice of angels

[

Yes, the Death Star could. It was within, from a space perspective, point blank range of the Alderaan destruction event, and yet was unaffected by the astronomical amounts of energy and debris hitting it.

no it wasn't the explosion was shown from a far away range



[

Prove it, and then explain why the couldn't detect a massive colony of 100,000 people.

the voth laugh at fed sensors..they can scan ships from what a hundred lightyears away? Picard bio scanned a planet the moment he entered a solar system...hell even a tiny little scout ship like voyager before it got its borg sensor steroids could keep track of events transpiring within a solar system at real time

You mean the same borg that only bother to send one borg cube at a time? Oh.

the same borg who's average cube can lay utter waste to entire fleets and when they actually got into a serious war with a serious..enemy...was more then able to field battle groups..

oh and incidentally in that war voyager and a borg cube soaked up debris flying at them from a planet that had just been blasted into a million pieces briefly before damage began to overwhelm their shields and they had to run...before being smashed to bits like the other cubes who stayed too long

a scoutship..could take for a brief second what your proposing..is beyond refutable evidence for SW supremacy because they're greatest technological achievement ever in the films...could allegedly do the same..with out having to run

a beaten up under crewed semi dilapidated non borg modified scout ship took that type of abuse for a few seconds..before being bailed out by a cube..think about that and while yes other cubes eventually got blasted to bits..or fragged by the shadow wannabes..the damn voyager briefly tanked it...I have never seen any evidence suggesting an ISD could survive that level of abuse in the movies...

Prove it, and explain why the protagonists don't always use this to take out the baddies instead of beaming down and having firefights with them.

Kirk did it...and PIS if trek tech where used the way it could be used normally..many episodes would last about five minutes

same for Jedi abilities..PIS man

You mean the body armor that can't stop knives, phasers or much of anything?

do you even know what armor I'm referring too?

As moronic as Star Wars tactics may be, they're still better than Star Trek tactics, which are an embarrassment to the military doctrine acquired throughout mankind's relatively bloody history. It's like Star Trek humanity gained amnesia and forgot everything about military tactics, so that their tactics got so bad that even movie starship troopers could defeat them. Heck, even LA street gangs might be able to defeat redshirts. They're just that bad.

this is an exaggeration outside of the TNG series we have seen decent fighting done by away teams against a myriad of enemies..the times they do do badly..tend to be against opponents like friggen khan in tos..or the borg or something

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More lies. Leia was a Force sensitive that got training in blasters.

where was this shown in the movies?

So did Like, who, contrary to your claims of being a hillbilly farmboy, was brave enough to take on Vader in personal combat, take out an AT-AT on his own and talk shit to the emperor.

who said rednecks don't have balls? I'm not calling luke a coward here so bringing up his bravado against palps is a little silly. it isn't like he had any type of formal training prior to engaging the first death star nor did he have over much jedi training at all

Which is completely irrelevant, isn't it?

if the Federation president got thrown down a reactor shaft by the Fleet Admiral of starfleet or the CnC in TOS...the Federation wouldn't collapse...like that

the Dominion might..Cardassia might but these two heavily brain washed indoctrinated cultures where violent oppression runs rampant and terror has as much to do with domination as military force

it suggests a profound weakness in the Empires government

On the contrary, starfleet engineering officers with no hand to hand combat training routinely take out guys in body armor with phasers. Guess what? Those guys in body armor with phasers often times have the element of surprise, and superior numbers!

oh your citing miles O'Brien as an example thats cool protip he has more combat experience then every one in TNG and Ds9 with the exceptions of Dax and Picard and was routinely sought out for advice and pointers..and at one point even gained the respect of friggen Jem'Hadar soldiers who at one point defered to the guys advice-his own engineering crews where many times as broken and manly as he was

the guy was also an uneducated every man who through sheer hard work and dedication ended up friggen head of the engineering school at starfleet academy or something-you know some one like this is clearly..the standard for a star fleet personnel right? oi...

oh and for the record most of those times they still end up getting ass beat by the armed guys

And this doesn't just happen once; it happens virtually all the freaking time! So much that klingons charge into combat with knives and actually win!

yes the sheer amount of dead klingons at Garek and Dukats feet or really any one including Bajoran militia certainly proves the wisdom of this tactic

In fact, there many instances in which a guy gets hit center of mass at point blank range in the chest with a phaser and is only mildly injured.

phasers having many settings...and what have you and the intentions of the one doing the firing? you factor none of these in?

There are other cases of phasers hitting unarmored redshirts and literally failing to penetrate their uniforms. Literally. They made no holes at all. They couldn't penetrate freaking pajamas.

and these redshirts still alive? or as dead as Caesar ?

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A few? You mean every single season, and happening every few episodes?

so do you..like watch the shows you try to debunk..or?

[

]There are examples of a few thugs with phasers taking on and capturing the most advanced ship in the fleet, aka the Enterprise.

Borg Binaries/sentient computers/data yes clearly joe blow menace *eye rolling *

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Or a teenager taking over the ship.

...you realize Wesley is essentially an annoying watered down version of lex Luthor yes? and that he later becomes for all intents and purposes. flying energy alien hippie Jesus ?

Or the Voyager crew being too stupid to change access codes after being spied on. Or being too stupid to use protection after a crew member gets infected.

I'm not even gonna defend the war crime that was voyager but you've been told many times now just how horrible the situation was for them

The stupidity continues. Upon making first contact with an alien race, Archer tells them where to find Earth. How beyond fucking stupid? It's like meeting a stranger and telling them where you live and where your kid goes to school. It's fucking insane.

yes Archer was a lunatic..the fact the earth still exists and the Federation hasn't collapsed but gotten stronger ceaselessly over time..does speak to the fact that he is a unique case

But according to you, only consistent showings matter. There are other examples of overloaded phasers making hand grenade size explosions.

and if Trek was as inconsistent as your making it out to be I would be manning the trenches right along side you brother..as a Star Wars fan..and as some one who despises inconsistency in fiction..but it's not

That being said, I'm calling bullshit on that. Show me an example of phaser overload blowing up buildings.

TOS and TNG iirc

The fact is that, Star Wars has to have a larger industrial base than Star Trek just in order to survive in universe. Why? Because they'd have to be able to feed, supply and entertain trillions/quadrillions of beings across millions of planets and maintain km tall skyscrapers. Their industrial base HAS to be massive, or otherwise they would have died out.

why what makes you think..curoscant is the norm? what makes you think they have a population in that number how many worlds are on that level? yes yes the EU goes into great detail with this but it is not supported by the movies at all..when you view the movies you get a civilization teetering on the brink of economic collapse and a declining culture that was infested with corruption and decadence and was easily subverted by a loan super human and his band of puppets..and in later series an Empire of elitist thugs struggling to maintain dominion over its bloated self and needing to resort to vast waste of building a gargantuan super weapon to frighten and intimidate just to hold on..who where so unable to maintain said control that when they're leader went..and the bulk of they're smart officers so went their abilities to maintain control over the population

However, you still haven't given proof as to how my math isn't objective. You made the claim. Prove it.

we've been over this

[StarWarsStarTrek]

it is invalid it is not a canon source i do not have to entertain it..and will not

Math and science are neither canon nor non canon. They're fundamental principles of the universe. In fact, since the opening phrase of Star Wars is a long time ago in a galaxy far far away... the Star Wars saga based on G canon takes place in our universe. Based on current Scientific knowledge, Science and math on constants, so they'd still be the same whenever Star Wars took place.

your conduct in this thread..your raging in the commentary thread your inability to answer the questions when we pointed out you messed up and your refusal to answer my questions regarding GL

all this comes off like when my nieces or nephews throw fits when things don't go there way and come on man..that's not the extent of your capabilities

c'mon sci fi fan/SWSt...I know you can be better than this!

[

Prove a single one of these claims. Have fun with that.

no it does not...it matches from the looks of the fleet battle against DS9 in way of the warrior...maybe and while that certainly is impressive it does not speak to the numbers we see pretty casually later in the tv series

Show an example of a larger battle then.

the novel I'm assuming was penned by Lucas? if so this is contradicted by whats seen on screen..but it is worth considering..only it seems to drop more nails on the coffin of they're economic dominance and makes no sense when measured up against the forces we saw deployed

Contradicted? What? Did you watch the same movies as I have? The movie I saw showed a city planet with a population density at least as high as New York City covering the entire surface of the planet and extending above the clouds.

so you what? it's not mentioned but that aside how does this mark superiority to trek? I'd think creating hulls strong enough to briefly withstand skimming along the surface of the sun..and what have you is just as advance if not more so

Star Trek hulls got breached by a slow moving pod moving at a few hundred meters per second. It's not that impressive. Episode: Voyager Deadlock.

are they modern? hell even in the EU that city has been around longer then the Jedi who had existed up until order 66 for some thirty thousand years..the SWU is a stagnant galaxy and in the movies we've been given no time frame for how long it's existed...we don't know if it's newly constructed or ancient...the republic had been around for "a thousand" generations by obi wans reckoning thats a long friggen time..was curoscant capital all that time?

In the EU, yes, but in G canon, since you don't want to use EU, we don't know how long it's been around, nor do we know whether or not Star Wars is stagnant. So ha.

this is true and I will gladly concede this point to you..that takes an enormous amount of money and resources and manpower to do..which brings me to my next point

a planet like that really is wasteful man

Not really. Where else would those people go? Coruscant allows for an economic center where people from around the galaxy can gather to trade and exchange information, goods, services and such. It's like claiming that New York City is wasteful.

well considering they don't need to build ISD sized ships to get to the job done why is this being asked

and why are you talking thousands? no ISD battle group has ever been shown in the films to be that large

The Battle of Coruscant. In terms of mass of ships, it matches the dominion battles. Also, the battle was a surprise attack, with the Republic having a limited amount of ships on alert.

.......industrial replicators have been a mainstay of the Trek galaxy for a good while the Dominion fleet sparse on supplies stuck in the AQ was able to hand Cardassia enough to completely remove all of they're massive financial and resource issues that they'd been having since they first appeared...and immediately after receiving these things..went on a wild ship building spree..and those defense platforms

this was something that Dominion had no problem handing out like candy even in deire straights and preparing to take on an industrial super power who was technologicaly nearly equal in this regard considering they offered the Bajorans more then they gave the Cardassians...and it was more then enough to solve all they're problems

the Feds possess tech like this too while not on the dommies level they have shown that this isn't an issue for them

None of this proves that replicators can be used on a large scale. Try again.

we have seen personal replicators do this...never mind that Quarks gun smuggling friends apparently replicated all their weaponry...and luxury replicators aren't the same thing as industrial replicators

hell a more primitive versions of the 24 century replicator was seen in ENT..and the damn thing literally made a hull section appear out of thin air inside of a second

You still can't prove that industrial replicators can make starships. Making a hull section appear is different from making a starship appear.

aside from ghetto worlds and rim worlds we've seen body counts and population figures given through out the dominion war that suggest a gargantuan population base...the concept of loosing nine hundred billion souls...while tragic and frightening..was not enough to force SFC to consider peace talks..if anything it pissed them off even more

Nine hundred billion is large, but was referring to the casualties of the entire war, which would include the entire Alpha Quadrant and the dominion, not just the Federation. Not to mention that Coruscant has hundreds of trillions of beings as an upper end estimation.

why yes indeed it does..what does this have to do with my point about the capital being in the minority and not the standard

Not the standard; maybe not, but Coruscant along is likely to have a larger population than perhaps the entire Federation.

blasting massive hull sections out of Borg cubes casually sawing comets in half one shotting an asteroid in one movie...cleaving entire sections out them in others a dead ship that was noted as being backwards by tng standards sitting in a huge asteroid field that was expressly noted as being debris from a planet that was pulverized casually firing yield free torps into a planet drilling through it to its core...doing the same thing with phasers in another ep...

in the Ep when Q was depowered the first thing Riker thought about doing when they saw that moon was to explode it and Data stated that it was impossible not because they couldn't do it but because it would rain debris and death on the citizens below

if you can crack a damn moon you can knock off the DS just fine

turning an earth like world into a brown dead planet to the extent of burning off even the oceans...inside of a second..really this isn't stuff one sees in the main canon of SW

Prove that any of this is beyond Star Wars's firepower, which can turn planet surfaces into slag; ah, yes, you won't accept that as canon. Still, prove that this is beyond Star Wars's firepower.

the battle was a last ditch effort gathering resources from all over the CIS in a desperate bid to continue to the war...more then normal would of been present there...and these numbers aren't seen in the empire era..the closest thing would be the fleet from TESB which comes closer to wolf 359 in size then say way of the warrior..or sacrifice of angels

Actually, it was made to look like a last ditch effort, but actually wasn't. It was a set up.

no it wasn't the explosion was shown from a far away range

Even said far away range was several thousand kms; several thousand kms away from an exploding planet would still be extremely lethal to any Federation starship, yet the Death Star easily took the debris and radiation from it.

the voth laugh at fed sensors..they can scan ships from what a hundred lightyears away? Picard bio scanned a planet the moment he entered a solar system...hell even a tiny little scout ship like voyager before it got its borg sensor steroids could keep track of events transpiring within a solar system at real time

Careful; you used 100 lightyears! 100 is a mathematical number, which you claim can't be used in this debate.

That being said, you still didn't justify why they couldn't detect a colony of 100,000 in Voyager the 37's.

the same borg who's average cube can lay utter waste to entire fleets and when they actually got into a serious war with a serious..enemy...was more then able to field battle groups..

oh and incidentally in that war voyager and a borg cube soaked up debris flying at them from a planet that had just been blasted into a million pieces briefly before damage began to overwhelm their shields and they had to run...before being smashed to bits like the other cubes who stayed too long

a scoutship..could take for a brief second what your proposing..is beyond refutable evidence for SW supremacy because they're greatest technological achievement ever in the films...could allegedly do the same..with out having to run

a beaten up under crewed semi dilapidated non borg modified scout ship took that type of abuse for a few seconds..before being bailed out by a cube..think about that and while yes other cubes eventually got blasted to bits..or fragged by the shadow wannabes..the damn voyager briefly tanked it...I have never seen any evidence suggesting an ISD could survive that level of abuse in the movies...

None of this is anything that you have quantified. Prove that a borg cube could defeat a star destroyer, when my "fan math" has prove otherwise. Ok, ignore that part, Just explain why you think that a borg cube could even scratch a star destroyer.

Kirk did it...and PIS if trek tech where used the way it could be used normally..many episodes would last about five minutes

same for Jedi abilities..PIS man

Oh, then the reason why Star Wars space battles are so small is PIS.

do you even know what armor I'm referring too?

What armor?

this is an exaggeration outside of the TNG series we have seen decent fighting done by away teams against a myriad of enemies..the times they do do badly..tend to be against opponents like friggen khan in tos..or the borg or something

[

It's not exaggeration. Justify why redshirts don't keep their guards up and their phasers ready when their ship is being boarded.

where was this shown in the movies?

She was obviously Force sensitive. As for her blaster training, iirc it was in the novels.

who said rednecks don't have balls? I'm not calling luke a coward here so bringing up his bravado against palps is a little silly. it isn't like he had any type of formal training prior to engaging the first death star nor did he have over much jedi training at all

And? Chief engineers don't have much formal combat training either, yet they can beat up phaser armed guys.

if the Federation president got thrown down a reactor shaft by the Fleet Admiral of starfleet or the CnC in TOS...the Federation wouldn't collapse...like that

the Dominion might..Cardassia might but these two heavily brain washed indoctrinated cultures where violent oppression runs rampant and terror has as much to do with domination as military force

it suggests a profound weakness in the Empires government

This is a good point. Too bad that the Federation can't act on this weakness.

oh your citing miles O'Brien as an example thats cool protip he has more combat experience then every one in TNG and Ds9 with the exceptions of Dax and Picard and was routinely sought out for advice and pointers..and at one point even gained the respect of friggen Jem'Hadar soldiers who at one point defered to the guys advice-his own engineering crews where many times as broken and manly as he was

the guy was also an uneducated every man who through sheer hard work and dedication ended up friggen head of the engineering school at starfleet academy or something-you know some one like this is clearly..the standard for a star fleet personnel right? oi...

oh and for the record most of those times they still end up getting ass beat by the armed guys

How is becoming an engineer related to combat ability? They still were able to defeat guys armed with phasers. Fact.

yes the sheer amount of dead klingons at Garek and Dukats feet or really any one including Bajoran militia certainly proves the wisdom of this tactic

Given that the klingon empire is still a major power and often times wins battle, apparently.

phasers having many settings...and what have you and the intentions of the one doing the firing? you factor none of these in?

It was a hostile firefight between factions with the intention to kill.

and these redshirts still alive? or as dead as Caesar ?

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Not specified, but probably dead.

so do you..like watch the shows you try to debunk..or?

What?

Borg Binaries/sentient computers/data yes clearly joe blow menace *eye rolling *

Against a crew of several hundred, a few dozen armed thugs shouldn't get anywhere significant. But they do, because redshirts are incompetent and starfleet security is a joke.

...you realize Wesley is essentially an annoying watered down version of lex Luthor yes? and that he later becomes for all intents and purposes. flying energy alien hippie Jesus ?

And yet they give him a disturbing amount of inside information on the Enterprise's critical systems? And they have no safeguards?

I'm not even gonna defend the war crime that was voyager but you've been told many times now just how horrible the situation was for them

Which justifies this...how exactly?

yes Archer was a lunatic..the fact the earth still exists and the Federation hasn't collapsed but gotten stronger ceaselessly over time..does speak to the fact that he is a unique case

Explain why, in their first ever true starship, the Federation puts a lunatic in charge of their ship with a bunch of equally lunatic lunatics under his command.

and if Trek was as inconsistent as your making it out to be I would be manning the trenches right along side you brother..as a Star Wars fan..and as some one who despises inconsistency in fiction..but it's not

Do you understand what inconsistency means? Redshirts are consistently incompetent. Is that an inconsistency? No, it's a consistency. And I proved an inconsistency. Why are you denying it? On what grounds?

TOS and TNG iirc

Is this your proof? You list a specific example, and then list two very long series spanning multiple seasons and episodes and your evidence with an iirc?

Give episode names or I'll assume that you're making things up.

why what makes you think..curoscant is the norm? what makes you think they have a population in that number how many worlds are on that level? yes yes the EU goes into great detail with this but it is not supported by the movies at all..when you view the movies you get a civilization teetering on the brink of economic collapse and a declining culture that was infested with corruption and decadence and was easily subverted by a loan super human and his band of puppets..and in later series an Empire of elitist thugs struggling to maintain dominion over its bloated self and needing to resort to vast waste of building a gargantuan super weapon to frighten and intimidate just to hold on..who where so unable to maintain said control that when they're leader went..and the bulk of they're smart officers so went their abilities to maintain control over the population

It isn't the norm, but the mere fact that they have the ability to make a city planet like the one shown on Coruscant implies a population, economy and industrial level orders of magnitude beyond Star Trek.

we've been over this

Ah, because math was invented by warsies according to you.

[Praeothmin]

Against a crew of several hundred, a few dozen armed thugs shouldn't get anywhere significant. But they do, because redshirts are incompetent and starfleet security is a joke.

And two idiots, a farmboy and a smuggler, can access important plans for the DS using an astromech droid, and walk wherever they want on a giant space station bristling with guards because... SW security sucks and Stormtroopers are even bigger idiots than Redshirts... :)

[Admiral Breetai]

[

Math and science are neither canon nor non canon. They're fundamental principles of the universe. In fact, since the opening phrase of Star Wars is a long time ago in a galaxy far far away... the Star Wars saga based on G canon takes place in our universe. Based on current Scientific knowledge, Science and math on constants, so they'd still be the same whenever Star Wars took place.

you seem to be missing the point entirely here..again

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Prove a single one of these claims. Have fun with that.

...your...wait you seriously? your conduct in this thread and almost every post you make are unacceptable

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Show an example of a larger battle then.

wow...you really have never seen a single episode of star trek have you?


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Contradicted? What? Did you watch the same movies as I have? The movie I saw showed a city planet with a population density at least as high as New York City covering the entire surface of the planet and extending above the clouds.

nothing indicating a planet with a population in the trillions

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Star Trek hulls got breached by a slow moving pod moving at a few hundred meters per second. It's not that impressive. Episode: Voyager Deadlock.

yes one low showing of a ship that later went on to shake off beams that tore massive segments out of borg cubes and tank chunks of planets colliding against it

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In the EU, yes, but in G canon, since you don't want to use EU, we don't know how long it's been around, nor do we know whether or not Star Wars is stagnant. So ha.

the quality of life shown in the republic era is better by a slight margin then imperial era the technology has not changed in decades and if anything got worse in the imperial era

thats late roman empire era stagnant

[
Not really. Where else would those people go? Coruscant allows for an economic center where people from around the galaxy can gather to trade and exchange information, goods, services and such. It's like claiming that New York City is wasteful.

the entire system could of become one gigantic trading hub colonized..and probably better defended seeing as any invading force would of had to occupy an entire system

as opposed to one gigantic city world.


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The Battle of Coruscant. In terms of mass of ships, it matches the dominion battles. Also, the battle was a surprise attack, with the Republic having a limited amount of ships on alert.

in terms of numbers it does not..and yes i know the republic forces got blind sided but the Separatist forces represented a desperate all out assault and push to at least bring them to term

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None of this proves that replicators can be used on a large scale. Try again.

....they completely and casually produce enough food resources and raw materials for a minor power controlling some..seventy famine resource depleted planets..virtually instantly..what in the blue hell are you talking about not used on a large scale

Cardassia = shit ghetto sector starving and broke

Dominion bribes them = everythings fine and they begin churning out a large warfleet to boot with Cardassias troubles virtually eliminated..by secondary shit handed out by the dominion..to make sure they had a good canon fodder force

[
You still can't prove that industrial replicators can make starships. Making a hull section appear is different from making a starship appear.

one robo arm..did the work of about a hundred personnel and did it with a flick of its little wrist...St fleet construction involves very little man power...this is pretty evident when the Feds go from being stagnant..and relying on older ships outdated to suddenly refitting hundreds to thousands of old ships..and then spamming entire classes of new vessels..inside of about...eighteen or so months..after previously spending nearly four decades..sitting on their asses

[

Nine hundred billion is large, but was referring to the casualties of the entire war, which would include the entire Alpha Quadrant and the dominion, not just the Federation. Not to mention that Coruscant has hundreds of trillions of beings as an upper end estimation.

no they refered specifically to the federation and why *it* as a nation should surrender and urge others to do the same - if the Federation and all its races faced extinction..they would of surrendered this was not about the AQ

no...to that bolded part just no..thats a face palm worthy assumption

[
Not the standard; maybe not, but Coruscant along is likely to have a larger population than perhaps the entire Federation.

if they where packed like rats you'd get maybe fifty or sixty billion people on an earth sized world as opposed to seeing opulent luxurious pent houses -your probably not seeing more then twenty

the entire population of the Federation is likely in the single digit trillions judging by quality of life..medical tech..and life spans being high even for humans (hundred plus years being common) other races..who range from century..to tens of thousands of years...and the fact that humanity seems to have banged like rabbits..and even outside of their own race the idea of nearly a trillion dead only served to completely enrage The Federation CnC again suggesting absorbing such losses is no issue

[]Prove that any of this is beyond Star Wars's firepower, which can turn planet surfaces into slag; ah, yes, you won't accept that as canon.

it isn't canon..the EU = garbage..accept for the stories on the golden age of the sith and KOTOR that stuffs cool..Exar Kun totally cool dude..but yeah not supported by movies = BS that will not be debated in this thread

[
Still, prove that this is beyond Star Wars's firepower.

considering clone troopers fired manual turbo lases at visual range through out the entire battle of curoscant and all space battles ever done in Wars at no single point does any ISD come remotely close to showing anything on this level of fire power..at all like at all

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Actually, it was made to look like a last ditch effort, but actually wasn't. It was a set up.

yes because clearly..we saw numbers on that level by seppy's again in the movie..oh wait no we didn't

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Even said far away range was several thousand kms; several thousand kms away from an exploding planet would still be extremely lethal to any Federation starship, yet the Death Star easily took the debris and radiation from it.

I like how the voyager rinky dinky as she was survived this point blank for a second or two..and some busted ass BOP was able to skim along the surface of the sun and warp out at such force that it caused a huge chunk of flaming hot death to smash into its duras house foes and was more or less barely hanging on but survived

and I don't see anything in the movie that shows the DS anywhere near Alderan *when* the explosion went off

[
Careful; you used 100 lightyears! 100 is a mathematical number, which you claim can't be used in this debate.

..ya missed the point again I see

[That being said, you still didn't justify why they couldn't detect a colony of 100,000 in Voyager the 37's.

it's called PIS its the same thing that allowed an angsty little redneck with barely an hour lecture on the force to some how take down a space station crack pilots couldn't while highly trained imperial fighters and his own jesus analog dad..couldn't stop him



[

[]None of this is anything that you have quantified. Prove that a borg cube could defeat a star destroyer, when my "fan math" has prove otherwise.

the only thing your fan math proved is that you have a compulsion to selectively do things to ensure your favorite series wins

[
Ok, ignore that part, Just explain why you think that a borg cube could even scratch a star destroyer.

considering the average decently upgraded ST ship has more fire power then has ever been shown in the star wars movies for warships...and a borg cube lulstomps an entire fleet of them...

they'd ass rape an ISD it'd ass rape an SSD it might only deem them worthy of assimilation for the hyperdrive..and an SSD's massive size..might make a good mobile HQ for the queen


[

[
Oh, then the reason why Star Wars space battles are so small is PIS.

that's cute..it's not the same thing PIS is..when something is patently obviously beneath a characer or races shown capability and yet they some how don't do it

or if the characters are all retards it's CIS

Sw fleets not being the numbers you like has more to do with lucas vision simply not being what you desperately want it to be

[
What armor?

breast plates helmits and iirc a riot shield type thing

[
It's not exaggeration. Justify why redshirts don't keep their guards up and their phasers ready when their ship is being boarded.

well for 1 Redshirts do not deal in such matters that'd be security..and most of the time..those very same security officers serving on a ship in the dominant super power of two Quadrants don't normally suspect such a thing and it isn't like they don't fight back

[She was obviously Force sensitive.

the weakest force sensitive in the entire Galaxy then and no she isn't Luke strongly believed she was but she really showed nothing remotely on the level of her brother..or really any force sensitive we ever saw in the films

[As for her blaster training, iirc it was in the novels.

this I can buy seeing as she's a rebel leader but she would not have comparable training to crack imperial troops who do nothing but dedicate to that it's like saying a senator who had basic military training can take on a damn marine detachment..it makes little sense

[
And? Chief engineers don't have much formal combat training either, yet they can beat up phaser armed guys.

seeing as Miles and Scotty where both senior veterans one of which grew up at a time when the feds where at the brink of war with the Klingons and fought many skirmishes and had a myriad of foes all over the place and routinely showed his combat prowess

and miles was well a decorated combat veteran who had the respect of every one from enlisted officers to damn famous captains..to well pretty much every one respected Da chief...

he jobbed once against a klingon but that aside the mans record was stellar

[
This is a good point. Too bad that the Federation can't act on this weakness.

the only thing preventing curoscants star from going nova say..a year or so into any war (because in a conflict this massive you can virtually be assured QSD will be massed installed) is Federation morals

they can bottle up any access point between Galaxies or universes if you want to go that route and deny them any headways into their territory...virtually every other major power can do this...the only ones i can't see doing this are chumps like the Cardassians..and simpletons like the kazon and Telarians and any other mid and low tier power

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How is becoming an engineer related to combat ability? They still were able to defeat guys armed with phasers. Fact.

because..and if you watched TNG you'd know this miles was once a soldier..and participated in some of the bloodiest encounters during the border conflict..the Cardassians like to call a war

[]
Given that the klingon empire is still a major power and often times wins battle, apparently.

yeah sure Cardassians they suck..if the Fed had been bloodlusted during the original wars the same thing would of happen this was proven when the Big E laughed off an attacking Cardassian ship after it had shot them point blank with no shields in the most vulnerable section of the ship...and the phoenix basically had its way with Cardy space...like fresh meat in a supermax

Klingons doing the same thing does not surprise me..and they are a major power because they have the resources the size and tech..that allows them to be a decent threat to the feds...that does not change the fact that if they had continued the battle against the Feds at DS9 Gowron would of broken the empire completely..and forced them to withdraw out of Cardy space to face a far more dedicated and serious federation who at the time was trying to prep the AQ and BQ for war and had absolutely no patience or time to deal with that bullshit Gowron knew this and the war between the feds and the klingons was allot worse then any klingon expected Gowron knew full well they'd eventually be stomped on

besides you act like a Vorcha and a few BOP's couldn't smash up some ISD's



[

[It was a hostile firefight between factions with the intention to kill.Not specified, but probably dead.]

so...you cite one example as though it where defining proof of what?

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What?

I'm asking you how many episodes of star trek have you watched? and I'm seriously asking you because allot of times you really do come off like you get your info from memory alpha..or wongs site as opposed to going out for yourself and making heads or tails

[]Against a crew of several hundred, a few dozen armed thugs shouldn't get anywhere significant. But they do, because redshirts are incompetent and starfleet security is a joke.

when the thugs are living computers..organic super machine alien dudes..or a teen ager that became an energy being..and an android that is superior to pretty much anything..on most starships in physical stats speed and knowledge?

[
And yet they give him a disturbing amount of inside information on the Enterprise's critical systems? And they have no safeguards?

because he was a vital member of the crew and was intelligent enough to create life and thus more then likely would of pretty easily obtained it himself..

the kid was a super genius..

[

[
Which justifies this...how exactly?

exhausted depleted and low on man power..nothing is going to work properly crew included

[

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Explain why, in their first ever true starship, the Federation puts a lunatic in charge of their ship with a bunch of equally lunatic lunatics under his command.

Archer being the son of a legend who's hand reached beyond the grave nepotism was likely the cause the man also had enough pull to get to choose his own command staff now moving on..being also formerly a crack pilot with only one superior to him heavily involved in warp five testing

well lets see here trip was a highschool drop out who routinely showed enough innate talent with engines that he put virtually every other engineer in ENT to shame more advanced Vulcans included

Malcom was a former S31 spy and killer his appointment there was likely no coincidence...Travis was a boomer and had more experience in space and piloting then any one else in the fleet besides maybe Archer Hoshi was a genius linguist who friggen invented the universal translator and was likely the best on earth or any where for that matter...and t'pol was well not wanted..at all like at all

[

[
Do you understand what inconsistency means? Redshirts are consistently incompetent. Is that an inconsistency? No, it's a consistency. And I proved an inconsistency. Why are you denying it? On what grounds?

you didn't prove anything you used vague outliers entirely inconsistent where as there was an entire series dedicated to war in which yellow shirts and red shirts showed..very good battle capabilities and on TNG they gave as good as they got the situations you mention against opponents and enemies vastly superior to them in every way or denied combat due said advantages

[

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Is this your proof? You list a specific example, and then list two very long series spanning multiple seasons and episodes and your evidence with an iirc?

kirk overloads phasers they frag buildings...the ep when they got phased an explosion from a disrupter is so violent and so sudden it forced the entire crew to look at the bizarre out put of particles...these dudes iirc even had to haul ass across a few rooms

phasers at max settings being able to completely vaporize anything they hit

[Give episode names or I'll assume that you're making things up.

"hey pot.."

"yeah kettle"

"YOUR BLACK!!"

"LOL SO ARE YOU!!!"

"HURP A DERP"


[

[]
It isn't the norm, but the mere fact that they have the ability to make a city planet like the one shown on Coruscant implies a population, economy and industrial level orders of magnitude beyond Star Trek.

no it does not because it gives no indication of how long it took..no indication the expense and it gives every indication that such mega-cities are such a vast resource burden they literally are incapable of fielding soldiers beyond a number in the low millions..and a fleet that cannot possibly based off the movies be more then a few thousand..to ten thousand max

[

[

Ah, because math was invented by warsies according to you.

no you continue to miss the point entirely