The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

[Praeothmin]

Actually, Geordi had no trouble installing it on the E-D when they needed it.
It works, but treaties with the Romulans keeps them from manufacturing them in stock and using them...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

You guys still don't get it? Your strategies are assuming that the UFP and Dominion are actually competent. The entire Trek saga has shown us that their competence is on average even lower than stormtroopers. In fact, redshirts vs movie Starship Troopers mobile infantry would be a close call, and that's rather embarrassing. If the UFP and Dominion were as competent as you guys think they are, they could have driven off basically every threat with ease. But they aren't.

With standard levels of competence, the Empire builds an army of death stars and smashes the Federation and Dominion. The industrial disparity is just so ridiculously large that the Trek alliance can only win if they manage to knock out the Empire in a knock out blow, but I've explained how by the time they reach the Star Wars galaxy many of the crew would be old men.

And no offense, but lol at the rebuttal that the Voyager took so long because they didn't have proper mapping. You do realize that, if attacking the Star Wars galaxy, they'd have absolutely no mapping, right?

[Praeothmin]

You guys still don't get it? Your strategies are assuming that the UFP and Dominion are actually competent. The entire Trek saga has shown us that their competence is on average even lower than stormtroopers. In fact, redshirts vs movie Starship Troopers mobile infantry would be a close call, and that's rather embarrassing. If the UFP and Dominion were as competent as you guys think they are, they could have driven off basically every threat with ease. But they aren't.

And here's what we were mentioning, SWST:
What proof do you have that Redshirts are indeed less competent then guys who miss soldiers wearing black costumes while kneeling in white corridors?
What proof do you have that idiots in white armor that were totally owned by small teddy bears are better trained than Redshirts?

With standard levels of competence, the Empire builds an army of death stars and smashes the Federation and Dominion. The industrial disparity is just so ridiculously large that the Trek alliance can only win if they manage to knock out the Empire in a knock out blow, but I've explained how by the time they reach the Star Wars galaxy many of the crew would be old men.

But then, why did the Empire not build such an great number of DSs when they had the chance?
Because they're idiots?
And the Dominion's industrial capacity is nothing to laugh at either, plus the fact that we are using all the one shot Trek tech in this one...
Also, can you provide proof that Warp is that slow?
Do you have numbers?
Because this site alone has some pretty good numbers for ST Warp Drive...

And no offense, but lol at the rebuttal that the Voyager took so long because they didn't have proper mapping. You do realize that, if attacking the Star Wars galaxy, they'd have absolutely no mapping, right?

And you realize that Voyager was also low on fuel and energy, was travelling at Warp 6 most of the time, kept encountering races that could threaten, and thus slow down, a lone federation vessel, plus the map issue...
And also that the Republic had to negociate with the Hutts to obtain the rights to use their space lanes because the Separatists controlled all the other lanes leading to the Outer Rim (TCW movie)...
So the Empire could not invade ST for the same reasons...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

And here's what we were mentioning, SWST:
What proof do you have that Redshirts are indeed less competent then guys who miss soldiers wearing black costumes while kneeling in white corridors?

The Voyager consisting of what; thousands of crew? get boarded and defeated by a few dozen at most invaders. When aware of the fact that there's an intrusion, redshirts run out into the open without even bothering to check for potential hostiles, and get shot. Then, a bunch of other redshirts find the intruders; who aren't that much smarter themselves, not bothering to have someone stand guard while scanning the bodies, and they start a firefight. The redshirts retreat in an open hallway, ignoring obvious points of cover and instead running and gunning and getting shot.

What proof do you have that idiots in white armor that were totally owned by small teddy bears are better trained than Redshirts?

Although the stormtroopers on Endor did get owned by Ewoks and Rebels once, redshirts and other Star Trek ground troopers get owned by melee weapons consistently, despite the element of surprise being even or even for them. These Star Trek guys in supposedly body armor with phasers got owned by Janeway's crew using their bare hands. At least the stormtroopers were getting owned by Ewoks that had weapons and the element of surprise.

Oh, and did I mention that a teenager almost took over the Enterprise? Or that, despite having been spied upon, the Enterprise's crew didn't bother to change their access codes? Or that when an infected crew member comes aboard, none of the crew bothers to use protection? Or that when making first contact with an alien species, Archer actually gave this completely unknown species info on how to find Earth? Star Trek redshirts are absolute morons.

But then, why did the Empire not build such an great number of DSs when they had the chance?
Because they're idiots?

Since when did they have a chance? When the second Death Star got destroyed the Empire fractured.

And the Dominion's industrial capacity is nothing to laugh at either, plus the fact that we are using all the one shot Trek tech in this one...

Maybe compared to the rest of Star Trek, but compared to the Empire the Dominion can barely even count as a threat.

Also, can you provide proof that Warp is that slow?

Uh, every freaking example of warp drive with one exception? What about the fact that in the dominion war the Federation needed days to get reinforcements a few light years? Or that official warp charts show warp speeds lower than hyperdrive speeds?

Do you have numbers?
Because this site alone has some pretty good numbers for ST Warp Drive...

Voyager taking 7 years to cross part of a quadrant despite being helped by god like beings?

And you realize that Voyager was also low on fuel and energy, was travelling at Warp 6 most of the time, kept encountering races that could threaten, and thus slow down, a lone federation vessel, plus the map issue...

The Voyager had 7 years to refuel.

And also that the Republic had to negociate with the Hutts to obtain the rights to use their space lanes because the Separatists controlled all the other lanes leading to the Outer Rim (TCW movie)...
So the Empire could not invade ST for the same reasons...

Again, hyperlanes are not needed for hyperdrive; they're merely recommended.

[Admiral Breetai]

The Voyager consisting of what; thousands of crew?[]

so your basically admitting you have never seen a single episode of star trek that's nice

Since when did they have a chance? When the second Death Star got destroyed the Empire fractured.

that didn't stop them fielding all sorts of super weapons and what have you


[

Maybe compared to the rest of Star Trek, but compared to the Empire the Dominion can barely even count as a threat.

with only a handful shipyards they produced tens of thousands of ships and breed enough men to make war on three major powers one of which had at least a population of about a trillion or so

yeah.."don't even classify as a threat" they had more ships then we've ever seen in any major SW engagement in the movies

edit-mind ye given access too what I have given them,..they should be able to field numeric superiority..but your acting like its given with out centerpoint and the starforge

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

so your basically admitting you have never seen a single episode of star trek that's nice

HEH at the very least he has never watched a episode of Voyager especially the pilot.

with only a handful shipyards they produced tens of thousands of ships and breed enough men to make war on three major powers one of which had at least a population of about a trillion or so

Dominion ship building and Jem breeding is pretty impressive especially considering they had a very limited area to do it in the Alpha quadrant.

yeah.."don't even classify as a threat" they had more ships then we've ever seen in any major SW engagement in the movies

True, even at the end of ROTJ we do not see what could be considered a particularly large fleet. Interestingly enough in ANH han mentions that the Entire starfleet could not destroy alderaan as it "would take a thousand ships with more firepower than..." then he cuts off so i suppose we could say that the Empires starfleet consists of less than 1000 ships from that comment as some one who spends his time smuggling stuff past them should have a good idea on how many he needs to avoid.

[Admiral Breetai]

HEH at the very least he has never watched a episode of Voyager especially the pilot.]

maybe he confused Voyager for V'ger? there was what a hundred or crew men on the voyager? maybe more..but allot had died?

Dominion ship building and Jem breeding is pretty impressive especially considering they had a very limited area to do it in the Alpha quadrant

.

inside Cardassian space which was noted numerous times as being basically the death valley of the AQ massively resource poor

testament to their industrial ability...another more passive one was that these guys handed out industrial class replicators like candy to the extent that even if the other side singed no treaty they still handed them IR's as evidence in the ep with the treaty of Bajor or what ever it was called. These guys where perfectly willing to just hand over more industrial replicators then they did to Cardassia and more then enough to solve the species problems such gestures especially when facing an all out duel to the death with another industrial super power and two of its rival nations..speaks of a race who has a pretty clear industrial advantage

True, even at the end of ROTJ we do not see what could be considered a particularly large fleet. Interestingly enough in ANH han mentions that the Entire starfleet could not destroy alderaan as it "would take a thousand ships with more firepower than..." then he cuts off so i suppose we could say that the Empires starfleet consists of less than 1000 ships from that comment as some one who spends his time smuggling stuff past them should have a good idea on how many he needs to avoid.

from just the movies an experienced world weary Smuggler who had routine run ins with the Imperial Navy from the EU a former academy student yes? Mind you unless the SW Galaxy is tiny them only managing a thousand cap ships and some escorts to hold such turf seems a bit off

I can buy thousands or maybe even the twenty or so thousand figure being low end what I have a hard time believing and it certainly isn't backed up by any primary canon material is "millions of vessels" as some of the EU and iirc the ICS supporters often cite as valid

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

maybe he confused Voyager for V'ger? there was what a hundred or crew men on the voyager? maybe more..but allot had died?

Tahey started with a compliment of 141, lost a load when the caretaker grabbed them, then the marquis joined them but along the way people got kill so...

from just the movies an experienced world weary Smuggler who had routine run ins with the Imperial Navy from the EU a former academy student yes? Mind you unless the SW Galaxy is tiny them only managing a thousand cap ships and some escorts to hold such turf seems a bit off

1. It was not that long after the war (23 years to ROTJ) so no real oposition.

2. Ships can travel fast across the SW galaxy they would not need many to enforce their rule.

3. At the end of episode 3 the top ship of the line for the fleet was the Venator-class, after that came a few other designs over the years that also got scrapped for the designs we saw in episodes 4-6.

Considering all that and the fact they do have smaller capital ships i do not think that the 1000 ISD's number is too small.

[Admiral Breetai]

Tahey started with a compliment of 141, lost a load when the caretaker grabbed them, then the marquis joined them but along the way people got kill so...

now being beaten by dozens of hirogen and Kazon seems slightly less like incompetence and more like a bunch of heavily depleted soldiers with very little combat experience struggling against...1, a pack of armed thugs and in the second instance extremely dangerous killers

among the other times..clearly not what was being represented

1. It was not that long after the war (23 years to ROTJ) so no real oposition.

true but to be fair, sidous wasn't exactly the bastion of competence and common sense the OT made him out to be thanks to the prequels and the best flag officers we saw in the movies piet and Tarkin, Tarkin was a little too cocky about the DS and it died largely because of that (not that I blame him mind you I'd probably make the same mistake given how absurd the odds where) and Piet who while he certainly survived the longest seemed a little to fearful to really do anything outside the box

you'd think they'd need a decen size fleet for intimidation factor to compensate no? similar to TNG klingons?

2. Ships can travel fast across the SW galaxy they would not need many to enforce their rule.

that's a good point..your right about that

3. At the end of episode 3 the top ship of the line for the fleet was the Venator-class, after that came a few other designs over the years that also got scrapped for the designs we saw in episodes 4-6.

I'll give Lucas points for making the transition in designs realistic with the progression of tech, couldn't they just take the old venators and stuff out of moth balls?

Considering all that and the fact they do have smaller capital ships i do not think that the 1000 ISD's number is too small.

I suppose but it still seems like a small number...I mean in peace time its true you need vastly less ships but still

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I'll Lucas points for making the transition in designs realistic with the progression of tech, couldn't they just take the old venators and stuff out of moth balls?

Maybe they did, or maybe they used each one of them up until the point needed to be melted down to be re-used in the construction newer model ships.

I suppose but it still seems like a small number...I mean in peace time its true you need vastly less ships but still

It does seem like a few but factor in that for every one of the thousand ISD II there could be several ships of each smaller class and it makes more sense.

The UFP and dominion had thousands of ships but not all of the feds were Sovs/galaxy class nor were the dominions all massive battleships in fact those larger classes seemed to be quite rare compared to the dominions bugs or the feds light and medium class cruisers. Even the Klingons had a larger percentage of bops than they did any of the larger fleet ships like vorcha's ect.

[Admiral Breetai]

Maybe they did, or maybe they used each one of them up until the point needed to be melted down to be re-used in the construction newer model ships.

that seems to speak of a fantastically bad economic situation though like worse off then the USSR in the late eighties bad-I mean there is some evidence from the films to support bad times...it didn't come off as that bad

It does seem like a few but factor in that for every one of the thousand ISD II there could be several ships of each smaller class and it makes more sense.

your right point taken and honestly an all ISD fleet seems a bit silly

The UFP and dominion had thousands of ships but not all of the feds were Sovs/galaxy class nor were the dominions all massive battleships in fact those larger classes seemed to be quite rare compared to the dominions bugs or the feds light and medium class cruisers. Even the Klingons had a larger percentage of bops than they did any of the larger fleet ships like vorcha's ect.

good point in the Dominions case some 80% of their over all fleet seemed to be bugs although in the klinks case we started see a boat load of Vorcha's past TNG replacing the D7's or what ever they where called-though that may be outta desperation to keep up with Fed weapon tech and new ship classes

what do you think would be a figure for over all Imp navy size?

[Lucky]

Maybe they did, or maybe they used each one of them up until the point needed to be melted down to be re-used in the construction newer model ships.

that seems to speak of a fantastically bad economic situation though like worse off then the USSR in the late eighties bad-I mean there is some evidence from the films to support bad times...it didn't come off as that bad

The Republic couldn't afford 5,000,000 more clones(and presumably there equipment) without incurring what they considered an impossibly large debt according to SW:TCW.

I think that's stupid, but that's canon.>_<

[Admiral Breetai]

so these guys would be starving to death trying to field ships on the same league as the dommies? and this is supported by clone wars? thats high canon aint it? damn damn...I was hoping not to have posted a stomp thread..

[Lucky]

so these guys would be starving to death trying to field ships on the same league as the dommies? and this is supported by clone wars? thats high canon aint it? damn damn...I was hoping not to have posted a stomp thread..

Season 3 Episode 10 or 11 depending on how you look at it.

It gets worse when 3,000,000 more battle droids is suppose to be enough to crush the republic.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

that seems to speak of a fantastically bad economic situation though like worse off then the USSR in the late eighties bad-I mean there is some evidence from the films to support bad times...it didn't come off as that bad

Perhaps although i would consider it more a matter of efficiency than indicative of a poor economy, after all going from digging the raw ore out of the ground to producing the alloys ect takes a lot of time compared to stuff that is already made and just needs to be remolded ect.

what do you think would be a figure for over all Imp navy size?

Not including Tie figters/bombers ect and only counting capital ships i would think that upto 50,000 state of the art capital ships spread out between the classes/sizes is reasonable then i would consider them having about the same quantity of older ships still in use but marked for decomissioning as soon as their materials could be used in the construction of more modern designs.

People seem to forget that even the older designes that were created in the 19 years between episode 3 and 4 are still newer and more powerful than anything anybody else has in the Empire.