The UFP and The Dominion Vs the GE

[Admiral Breetai]

instead of the Rebellion...they face the united fronts of the Dommies..the UFP and their Aq/BQ allies..

Wormholes in Dominion space, the allies all have use of QSD/transwarp ..the UFP's entire industry is in full war footing as is the Dominions neither side will be holding back...WMD's and stolen tech will be used by both sides

full blood lusted all out war

which side takes this?

edit-stipulations because I actually want a good thread..tech of the week excluded..time travel outlawed..I'll sport them what Janeway brought home and what ever they stole from the Borg and other ancient races..and what ever WMD's they've shown to have had access too and built in the past

the rest leave it

[Mith]

Empire gets crushed.

[Praeothmin]

Admiral Breetaï, you just did what SWST usually does at SB.com...
You stacked the deck so much in favor of ST, it isn't funny...

I believe at SB.com, this would call for a "Vlad Tepes" award... O_O!

[Enterprise E]

Yeah, this is a slaughter, assuming comparable firepower, even between individual turbolaser bolts and phaser/disruptor blasts. The Empire has, at its height, 25,000 Star Destroyers or so of the Venator and Imperial types (Victory as well if you wish to include the EU), plus at least one Super Star Destroyer, and numerous smaller starships that likely won't have much effect on the battle. In the Dominion War, the Dominion, near the end, had 30,000 starships of various classes, with the Federation/Klingon/Romulan (FKR) Alliance having, probably at least 15,000 to likely close to 30,000 starships. Even if you include the low end for that, that's likely at least 45,000 starships or so against 25,000. And that's not including the Federation Attack Fighters and runabouts. I know that the Empire has starfighters as well, but they're not good for much besides being phaser and torpedo sponges. Heck, the smaller Imperial starships are likely only going to be useful against the weakest of Federation ships and as buffers between the Federation/Dominion fleets and the Star Destroyers. And this is only the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Who knows how many ships the Dominion has back in Gamma Quadrant. They were able to send through more than two thousand starships to reinforce their fleet in the AQ during the Dominion War, and most of those ships looked to be Battlecruisers to me, which is why such a small number, compared to the 30,000 that were seen at the end of the war, may have been so significant at the time.

Also, even though the Galactic Empire has smaller ships like Corellian Corvettes and Nebulon B Class Frigates, those starships are much weaker than ISDs, and the ISD is the only ship that I think stands a chance against some of the weaker Star Trek ships. And this is before we get into the argument of weapons range between the two powers. We have numerous examples of long range combat in the tens of thousands, to even hundreds of thousands of kilometers for Star Trek. The maximum I've seen in either the movies or The Clone Wars tv series is hundreds of kilometers. The FKR Alliance and Dominion forces not only vastly outnumber the Imperial fleet, but also have superior weapons range, too. As for the Death Star, it has its weaknesses, and even if we include the DS II, it may still be taken down by Changeling infiltrators, or by any number of Federation tech of the week items, like a Trilithium Torpedo that blows up the star system it's in, or even a massive assault by Transphasic Torpedoes. All in all, the Federation, its allies, and the Dominion just have too much power and weapons at their disposal for the Empire to be able to win in a war like this.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Yeah, this is a slaughter, assuming comparable firepower, even between individual turbolaser bolts and phaser/disruptor blasts.

Assuming comparable firepower is a rather big assumption, given the nature of the debate.

The Empire has, at its height, 25,000 Star Destroyers or so of the Venator and Imperial types (Victory as well if you wish to include the EU), plus at least one Super Star Destroyer, and numerous smaller starships that likely won't have much effect on the battle. In the Dominion War, the Dominion, near the end, had 30,000 starships of various classes, with the Federation/Klingon/Romulan (FKR) Alliance having, probably at least 15,000 to likely close to 30,000 starships. Even if you include the low end for that, that's likely at least 45,000 starships or so against 25,000. And that's not including the Federation Attack Fighters and runabouts.

You do realize that the 25,000 figure is only for star destroyers, right? There would be many, many more smaller craft. Also remember that said figure was not for a full scale war mobilization against a conventional full.

I know that the Empire has starfighters as well, but they're not good for much besides being phaser and torpedo sponges.

Which actually makes them helpful. The Enterprise had less than 300 photon torpedos; if they have to expend 70 of them, they lose about a fourth of their payload and lots of time.

Heck, the smaller Imperial starships are likely only going to be useful against the weakest of Federation ships and as buffers between the Federation/Dominion fleets and the Star Destroyers.

This is false. Even a cruiser was stated in a Lando novel to have continent destroying weapons. A civilian cruiser in a novel flew within 3000 kms of a neutron star without suffering any damage. The Enterprise could not last for more than 18 minutes tens of millions of miles away from a pulsar.

And this is only the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Who knows how many ships the Dominion has back in Gamma Quadrant.

Said ships would literally take decades to get to any place significant, so they're irrelvent.

They were able to send through more than two thousand starships to reinforce their fleet in the AQ during the Dominion War, and most of those ships looked to be Battlecruisers to me, which is why such a small number, compared to the 30,000 that were seen at the end of the war, may have been so significant at the time.

2000 ships would hardly be a tide changer in a war like this.

Also, even though the Galactic Empire has smaller ships like Corellian Corvettes and Nebulon B Class Frigates, those starships are much weaker than ISDs, and the ISD is the only ship that I think stands a chance against some of the weaker Star Trek ships.

You need to provide evidence if you are to claim it.

And this is before we get into the argument of weapons range between the two powers. We have numerous examples of long range combat in the tens of thousands, to even hundreds of thousands of kilometers for Star Trek.

Only in small scale battles, and even then they're usually within visual range. In every single large scale engagement in Star Trek the battles are always fought in visual range. Don't believe me in that? Go watch a borg cube battle or dominion battle online. They're all within a few hundred meters. Sometimes they're actually at danger of colliding into eachother. Where's this uber long range that you claim?

The maximum I've seen in either the movies or The Clone Wars tv series is hundreds of kilometers.

The maximum combat range I've ever seen in a Star Trek engagement involving more than 10 ships is in the tens of kms.

The FKR Alliance and Dominion forces not only vastly outnumber the Imperial fleet, but also have superior weapons range, too.

You yourself admitted that the imperial fleet would have far more smaller craft.

As for the Death Star, it has its weaknesses, and even if we include the DS II, it may still be taken down by Changeling infiltrators, or by any number of Federation tech of the week items, like a Trilithium Torpedo that blows up the star system it's in, or even a massive assault by Transphasic Torpedoes.

There's a reason why those technologies are Trek plot devices of the week. They don't ever get used again, or at least very rarely. Why? Either there's some unmentioned technical limitation to these technologies, or starfleet is a moron filled incompetent piece of shit when it comes to military capability. Probably a bit of both. So unless if the Star Trek side suddenly gets competence, they won't use these technologies.

All in all, the Federation, its allies, and the Dominion just have too much power and weapons at their disposal for the Empire to be able to win in a war like this.

[/quote][/quote]

You haven't proven these allegedly more powerful weapons, shields or ranges.

You've also cleverly dodged the issue of logistics and industrial might.

The Empire built the Death Star 2 in secret in 6 months to 60% completion. The would equate to literally several million star destroyers every second. That's right; every second. Even after several years of full military mobilization the Dominion could barely muster 30,000 ships. If you were to compare the respective volume and mass of the two feats, you'd notice that the Empire is literally quadrillions of times larger and more capable in terms of industry.

Logistics. For the sake of the debate, let's say that the two sides have some sort of wormhole connecting each other. It took Voyager 7 years to cross a part of a quadrant of the galaxy. Assuming a 100,000 LY diameter for the Milky Way, that's 25,000 light years...and this isn't even taking into account that it was only a part of the galaxy, and was being boosted by various deus ex machinas, including god like beings.

There are two interpretations of the size of the Star Wars galaxy: 120,000 LYs and about 25,000 LYs. Two possibilities:

120,000 LYs: 33.6 years to cross the Star Wars galaxy. By then, the Empire could have produced at least 40 Death Star 2's.
25,000 LYs: 7 years to cross the Star Wars galaxy. By then, the Empire could have produced at least 8 Death Star 2's.

What does this mean? Depending on your interpretation of the size of the Star Wars galaxy, any Star Trek invasion force would be facing 8 to 40 Death Star 2's when they get there. No amount of reasonable trekkie arguments could rationalize how the Federation or Dominion could take on that many moon sized planet busting battle stations. Oh, and many of the crew members would be old men if we use the higher time estimate.

And these numbers are ridiculously conservative, because they do not take into account:

The Death Star 2 was constructed in secret in the outer rim. In a full scale military mobilization, it would be constructed in an easier to reach location with more resources to use.
As more Death Star 2's are produced, it will get easier and easier to produce them as they get more and more used to it.
The Voyager had help from god like beings.
The Voyager didn't even cross the entire quadrant.
The Voyager iirc had to refuel.
The Dominion and Federation both have failed to plot out their own galaxy in several centuries. They would have no idea where any major Star Wars planets are.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

What does this mean? Depending on your interpretation of the size of the Star Wars galaxy, any Star Trek invasion force would be facing 8 to 40 Death Star 2's when they get there. No amount of reasonable trekkie arguments could rationalize how the Federation or Dominion could take on that many moon sized planet busting battle stations. Oh, and many of the crew members would be old men if we use the higher time estimate.

8 to 40 death star 2's?, so the federation turns up with 8-40 transphasic cloaked shuttles along with a transphasic torpedo for each and the Empire has a bad day.


Does the Empire never learn?, the first DS got ass raped on its second mission by a few outdated fighters and its first mission likely only succeeded because Alderaan had not been briefed on its weakness.

So they do a rush job on the second and make grand plans to trap the rebels but forgot to take into account the might od spear and stone tipped arrow wielding 3ft teddy bears.

Face it Death stars suck, the federation and dominion have the ability to blow up stars let alone planets and do they need a 100's of KM in diameter station? NOPE all they need is a photon torp that can be fired from a modified shuttle to do it. Shit the dominion spy that was going to blow up the bajoran sun did not even need the damn torpedo.

[Mike DiCenso]

The Empire built the Death Star 2 in secret in 6 months to 60% completion. The would equate to literally several million star destroyers every second. That's right; every second. Even after several years of full military mobilization the Dominion could barely muster 30,000 ships. If you were to compare the respective volume and mass of the two feats, you'd notice that the Empire is literally quadrillions of times larger and more capable in terms of industry.

The Death Star 2 was not built in 6 months time. The first, smaller Death Star required at least 23 years from it's design and initial construction by the Seperatists in the Clone Wars to the construction under the Galactic Empire post-CW. The second battlestation, still required a number of years, at least four, and possibly as many as eight years. As has been noted, the G-canon level RoTJ novelization right on page one states that "many years" had gone by since the destruction of the DS1. So, even if what we saw was actually done somehow in 6 months, it still takes a good number of years to ramp up and martial the resources for the effort, and at no time in G-canon is mention made of mass-producing Death Stars.

Your statement of "the Dominion could barely muster 30,000 ships" is disingenuous. The Dominion after more than 2 years of intensive fighting that saw the loss of who knows how many thousands of ships, and making use only of local Cardassian resources was still able to field a fleet all while cut off completely from the Gamma quadrant is quite impressive in and of itself.

Meanwhile, according to the TCW series, ordering up a mere 5 million clones was expected to bankrupt the Empire' predecessor the Galactic Republic. Being generous, that would mean that buying the clones, their weapons and other gear, along with possibly mechanized ground vehicles, air support, and space assests.

Logistics. For the sake of the debate, let's say that the two sides have some sort of wormhole connecting each other. It took Voyager 7 years to cross a part of a quadrant of the galaxy. Assuming a 100,000 LY diameter for the Milky Way, that's 25,000 light years...and this isn't even taking into account that it was only a part of the galaxy, and was being boosted by various deus ex machinas, including god like beings.

There are two interpretations of the size of the Star Wars galaxy: 120,000 LYs and about 25,000 LYs. Two possibilities:

120,000 LYs: 33.6 years to cross the Star Wars galaxy. By then, the Empire could have produced at least 40 Death Star 2's.
25,000 LYs: 7 years to cross the Star Wars galaxy. By then, the Empire could have produced at least 8 Death Star 2's

.

Again, a fallacious presentation. Voyager was limited due to a lack of good navigational data on the Delta quadrant as noted in "The Year of Hell, Part 1", "Hope and Fear", and "Q2" where obtaining it each time slashed years off the trip home without any spatial anomalies, super-beings, ect.

We have also seen that the Federation spans both the Alpha and Beta quadrants. In fact, as early as Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, the USS Excelsior was stated in Captain Sulu's log as being in the Beta quadrant near the Klingon-Federation Neutral Zone. We can see on the map from "The Chase"...



... that the Federation has a pretty good grasp on the maping of two quadrants, which explains how the E-D was able to traverse the 40,000 light year distance that Professor Galen traces out in so little time (mere days). So while intially the Federation-Dominion forces would be slowed down, this is not a long-term issue with the ruthlessness of the Dominion applied here in obtaining that information from encountered local assests, and possibly the Federation's Section 31.

The Empire, on the other hand, is restricted in movement into the Milky Way for very similar reasons, as no hyperspace lanes exist there, and it takes many centuries to map them out.
-Mike

[StarWarsStarTrek]

What does this mean? Depending on your interpretation of the size of the Star Wars galaxy, any Star Trek invasion force would be facing 8 to 40 Death Star 2's when they get there. No amount of reasonable trekkie arguments could rationalize how the Federation or Dominion could take on that many moon sized planet busting battle stations. Oh, and many of the crew members would be old men if we use the higher time estimate.

8 to 40 death star 2's?, so the federation turns up with 8-40 transphasic cloaked shuttles along with a transphasic torpedo for each and the Empire has a bad day.

You mean the same transphasic torpedos that the Federation never uses except for about once?

Does the Empire never learn?, the first DS got ass raped on its second mission by a few outdated fighters and its first mission likely only succeeded because Alderaan had not been briefed on its weakness.

Outright lie. Actually X wings were not outdated, in fact they were among the most advanced starfighters available. Oh, and Luke only managed to get that lucky shot in because of the Force and Obi Wan's guidance.

So they do a rush job on the second and make grand plans to trap the rebels but forgot to take into account the might od spear and stone tipped arrow wielding 3ft teddy bears.

You do realize that such a blunder was a one shot example of stormtroopers losing to non Force sensitive melee combat, and Star Trek has lots of this, right? In an episode, a bunch of guys in black armor come and try to arrest Janeway and some of the Voyager crew. Janeway and the crew actually disarm many of the guards in hand to hand combat. It's the guards that had the element of surprise, and yet the crew used hand to hand combat to defeat them; not even the spears and rocks the Ewoks with the element of surprise used; hand to hand.

Face it Death stars suck, the federation and dominion have the ability to blow up stars let alone planets and do they need a 100's of KM in diameter station? NOPE all they need is a photon torp that can be fired from a modified shuttle to do it. Shit the dominion spy that was going to blow up the bajoran sun did not even need the damn torpedo.

You mean the same torpedo that they only used once?

[Mike DiCenso]

Shit the dominion spy that was going to blow up the bajoran sun did not even need the damn torpedo.

Actually, let him have his Death Stars, a few well-placed Founders in disguise could infiltrate into them, and sabotage their reactors. No need to risk ships and troops.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

You mean the same transphasic torpedos that the Federation never uses except for about once?

Considering they were introduced in the final episode of Voyager im not sure that you making a comment like the one above is worth anything.

They exist and are available so deal with it.

Outright lie. Actually X wings were not outdated, in fact they were among the most advanced starfighters available. Oh, and Luke only managed to get that lucky shot in because of the Force and Obi Wan's guidance.

As far as i was aware X-wings were old but i may be wrong, however the fact is that the kill was considered doable without the force.

You do realize that such a blunder was a one shot example of stormtroopers losing to non Force sensitive melee combat, and Star Trek has lots of this, right?

So what?, stone tipped spears and arrows fired from pitifully small bows weilded by 3 ft teddy bears kicked the shit out of the Empires best and brightest.

You mean the same torpedo that they only used once?

Is that all you can say?, you twist yourself into knots trying to wank SW but the best you can do against ST tech is whine that accepted canon abilities and tech are not used in every fucking fight and episode?.

"Quick we have a trade dispute on a non federation planet lets blow up the fucking sun for kicks and to keep whiney warsies happy"...

Hey il jump on that bus and say the DS cannot destroy planets as after all we only saw it kill one fucker, so go ahead and build 40 of em we can string em together and make anal beads for Q's wife.

Actually, let him have his Death Stars, a few well-placed Founders in disguise could infiltrate into them, and sabotage their reactors. No need to risk ships and troops.
-Mike

Empire troops are so pussy wipped they could just replace the commander make up some bullshit about seperatists/rebels and hey presto a DS charging around popping its own dudes :).

[Admiral Breetai]

Admiral Breetaï, you just did what SWST usually does at SB.com...
You stacked the deck so much in favor of ST, it isn't funny...

I believe at SB.com, this would call for a "Vlad Tepes" award... O_O!

I dsunno man..I pulled a charlton heston and handed the SWU every super weapon and their kitchen sinks wouldn't those two broken shipyards? centerpoint and the other one count as well?

like I said this a balls to the wall death match..both parties should make ready use of everything in their arsenal

I mean between the galaxy gun suncrusher fleet spaming? it really is that bad? I had not intended such an event

[Trinoya]

Using every thing that they have at their disposal, and with an alliance with the dominion?

What do you have against star wars?


No... really... EVERYTHING? That's be a tall order for a lot of universes to deal with...

A near limitless number of soldiers, 100% loyal, who don't eat or sleep... ships unable to be damaged...

General Orders

Sun busting torps?

...


Borg Nano Technology and the capability to spread them across LIGHT YEARS...

Time Travel...


...

EVEN with ICS Yields..

EVEN with the most insane hyper drive speeds (and calcs for mapping no less)

EVEN with the highest most wankified fleet numbers I've seen...


Star Trek Stomp... The biggest advantage the EMPIRE had was sheer numbers... and you've nulled just that with the Dominion added in.


The downside is: While you've provided the option for, "all super weapons" we also know this is during the time of the rebellion... the Empire doesn't have access to a lot of the EU material yet...

And even if they did... As far as I know they have no way to defend against the Phase Cloak.


Edit: On a pure side note: This is why most techs of the week are disallowed in most formal debate. They are 'game breaking' as it were.

[Admiral Breetai]

Time Travel...

.

WOAH WOAH

I forgot about that its a head ache I don't need..I'll edit the OP I'm banning time travel and time based weaponry

[Trinoya]

Well that brings it into a 'slightly' less state of 'curbstomped six times yesterday' realm.

Phase cloak still wins the day however.

[Admiral Breetai]

Well that brings it into a 'slightly' less state of 'curbstomped six times yesterday' realm.

Phase cloak still wins the day however.

I got the distinct impression that they where still a ways off from using that properly

mind ye dommie engineers and Fed scientists working together may change that but