A challenge to Trekkies

[Picard]

I doubt they ran into tritanium asteroid.

[User1462]

Well it's something that they can't scan or beam through, so it's no normal asteroid either.
Leaving aside the idea that it's pretty foolish to take the entire Enerprise into an asteroid rather than simply sending a shuttle, we'd have to assume that they needed the ship's sensors, since a shuttle's wouldn't be powerful enough to find the Pegasus.

Again, this points to one pretty tough rock, on an order of magnitude not seen elsewhere; so there's no way to tell.
Even the Romulan plasma-weapon in "Balance of Terror" was able to destroy an 2-mile thick asteroid made of iron, in addition to being shielded; and photon torpedoes were an advancement over that tech; so I'd say this asteroid was something much tougher than iron or anything else enountered previously.

[Lucky]

Well it's something that they can't scan or beam through, so it's no normal asteroid either.
Leaving aside the idea that it's pretty foolish to take the entire Enerprise into an asteroid rather than simply sending a shuttle, we'd have to assume that they needed the ship's sensors, since a shuttle's wouldn't be powerful enough to find the Pegasus.

Again, this points to one pretty tough rock, on an order of magnitude not seen elsewhere; so there's no way to tell.
Even the Romulan plasma-weapon in "Balance of Terror" was able to destroy an 2-mile thick asteroid made of iron, in addition to being shielded; and photon torpedoes were an advancement over that tech; so I'd say this asteroid was something much tougher than iron or anything else enountered previously.

They couldn't send in a shuttle because of powerful magnetic and gravitational fields. Considering shuttles have no problems with stars makes for a very hostile environment.

[mojo]

even wilga is sick of this idiocy. i haven't been around much for awhile, but i have never seen that happen before.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Again, please remind me if there's something really important that you want me to respond to, because I have finite time.

@Picard: I read through your link...and it's decent. But some of your evidence is sketchy. For example, you assumed that the asteroid had to be vaporized...for no reason really, other than to wank up your results. Your justification for the low end Star Trek combat ranges is laughably stupid. If you were in charge of the US navy, Picard, we'd be screwed in a war. If you seriously think that going within a few hundred meters just to minimize the chances of the other side to evade, while ignoring the fact that such a thing goes both ways, then you clearly don't know that much about naval warfare. Modern day naval battles take place over longer ranges than Star Trek space battles. Sure; there are examples of Star Trek long range battles, but they're small scale engagements. Large scale engagements for some reason involve ranges that are comparable to ancient naval warfare, and even ramming is an effective tactic.

A better gauge for photon torpedo yield? The breen attack on Earth. Based on a top down bird's eye view, the fireball is less than 500 meters in diameter. That would therefore be a kiloton level explosion. Also, the death toll for the attack was 8 million and counting. The hundreds of megatons to gigatons level photon torpedos you suggested would cause far, far, far more casualties than that if used on a planet as populated as Earth. In fact, the attack was only on the San Fransico Bay area! A few megaton/gigaton level explosions would essentially destroy San Fransico, but these clearly didn't. There were bridges and buildings still partially intact.

Also, did you notice that picture of a base delta zero in the other thread? They showed explosions far more energetic than the Breen attack on Earth, especially since they actually turned the planet's surface into molten slag, while the Breen attack...devastated a city and its surrounding area. In fact, the base delta zero feats showed more energetic fireballs than even quantum torpedo explosions.







That being said however, we're getting really, really off topic. Does anybody have any answer to the multiple challenges in the OP?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Also, did you notice that picture of a base delta zero in the other thread? They showed explosions far more energetic than the Breen attack on Earth, especially since they actually turned the planet's surface into molten slag, while the Breen attack...devastated a city and its surrounding area. In fact, the base delta zero feats showed more energetic fireballs than even quantum torpedo explosions.

The destruction from the breen was likely bleed through as starfleet head quarters is almost certainly going to be shielded, the attack in your so called BDZ image is obviously a unshielded planet and i sa no molten slag in regards to any of the surface let alone all of it especially factoriong in the distance the foreballs were apart.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Also, did you notice that picture of a base delta zero in the other thread? They showed explosions far more energetic than the Breen attack on Earth, especially since they actually turned the planet's surface into molten slag, while the Breen attack...devastated a city and its surrounding area. In fact, the base delta zero feats showed more energetic fireballs than even quantum torpedo explosions.

The destruction from the breen was likely bleed through as starfleet head quarters is almost certainly going to be shielded, the attack in your so called BDZ image is obviously a unshielded planet and i sa no molten slag in regards to any of the surface let alone all of it especially factoriong in the distance the foreballs were apart.

If said imaginary and not mentioned planetary shield was able to somehow stop 99.9% of the photon torpedo and let 0.01% in, why were sub kiloton level explosions scene? Those were from weapons of sub kiloton yield? Why were they able to get through? You're implying that the shield somehow stops 99.9% of the energy and let's 0.01% through. Pretty lucky for Earth and its citizens, because if only 0.1% more got through, Earth would have been a wasteland.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

If said imaginary and not mentioned planetary shield was able to somehow stop 99.9% of the photon torpedo and let 0.01% in, why were sub kiloton level explosions scene?

1. Earths defences are mentioned on many occasions during the series, unlike planetary shields in SW G canon.....

2. Also we know that Trek shields do allow bleed through if hit hard enough.

3. The acyual Episode showed no explosions, the material you have on you tube is a compilation from multiple series and movies.

4. I suggest you validate your material before you post anymore editied fanboi bullshit from you tube and claim it to be canon.

[alpinedigital]

Ok, so how about a Trekkie (no offense, simply a term) try and answer these challenges. If 2 of these can be proven, then I'll concede.

1. A blatant, unjustifiable contradiction by G canon OR 3 or more by T/C canon of the ICS.
2. An explanation as to how the Federation matches or even comes close to matching Star War's industrial and numerical advantage.
3. An explanation as to how the Federation's warp drive can possibly be matched to the far faster Star Wars hyperdrive.
4. A plan as to how the Federation could possibly mount any successful invasion of the Star Wars galaxy in under 100 years.
5. An explanation as to how the Federation counters the sun crusher, centerpoint station or even the 2 death stars.

Dang, I finally got reg'd here and this is one of the first posts I see. Only 1 question: Are you seriously trying to say Empire vs Federation? To me, thats offensive, like don't insult anyone's intelligence. If you limit everything to 'Federation only' then ST side would have to cheat to win. It would still be a win, but not a firepower battle. More like underdogs toss protocols out the window and dream up a really bad day for the Empire.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Here's a counter argument:

Show a single example, if you can, of a Trek photon torpedo doing high megaton level damage. Because there are several in which they do kiloton level damage. Explain this:





And that torpedo was supposed to be 11% more powerful than usual!

*SIGH* they were also testing a new guidance system, designed by Worf (eh?). You don't test guidance systems after testing the new yields, but before. You use less powerful missiles, see if the locking system works, and then you try the yield.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Also, did you notice that picture of a base delta zero in the other thread? They showed explosions far more energetic than the Breen attack on Earth, especially since they actually turned the planet's surface into molten slag, while the Breen attack...devastated a city and its surrounding area. In fact, the base delta zero feats showed more energetic fireballs than even quantum torpedo explosions.

The destruction from the breen was likely bleed through as starfleet head quarters is almost certainly going to be shielded, the attack in your so called BDZ image is obviously a unshielded planet and i sa no molten slag in regards to any of the surface let alone all of it especially factoriong in the distance the foreballs were apart.

If said imaginary and not mentioned planetary shield was able to somehow stop 99.9% of the photon torpedo and let 0.01% in, why were sub kiloton level explosions scene? Those were from weapons of sub kiloton yield? Why were they able to get through? You're implying that the shield somehow stops 99.9% of the energy and let's 0.01% through. Pretty lucky for Earth and its citizens, because if only 0.1% more got through, Earth would have been a wasteland.

That's a fair point cause, you know, even if we could say that they could erect such a shield when they have them on penal colonies in the middle of nowhere, you do really want to know how anything managed to crash at all, and if anything crashed, why is it that no high yield conventional weapon wasn't fired, and how is it that some WMD of the week wasn't unleashed on Earth then.
But there's a thread about planetary shields in Star Trek. Perhaps some sound suggestions were made there.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

*SIGH* they were also testing a new guidance system, designed by Worf (eh?). You don't test guidance systems after testing the new yields, but before. You use less powerful missiles, see if the locking system works, and then you try the yield.

We know for sure the new guidance system was not exactly working right so even if they were supposedly set for 11% greater yield what is it assumed that what we see is the yield working perfectly?.

For all we know (and the fact that they tend to show a large fiery effect when they hit properly) worf managed to screw up the yield as well so it was only a fraction of what was intended.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

That's a fair point cause, you know, even if we could say that they could erect such a shield when they have them on penal colonies in the middle of nowhere, you do really want to know how anything managed to crash at all, and if anything crashed, why is it that no high yield conventional weapon wasn't fired, and how is it that some WMD of the week wasn't unleashed on Earth then.
But there's a thread about planetary shields in Star Trek. Perhaps some sound suggestions were made there.

It seems perfectly inline to me that a fleet of ships dropping out of warp and unleashing a full barrage on a very small and specific spot would cause damage via bleed through, especially considering that is exactly what their mission was and what they would have been setup to do.

[Picard]

Again, please remind me if there's something really important that you want me to respond to, because I have finite time.

@Picard: I read through your link...and it's decent. But some of your evidence is sketchy. For example, you assumed that the asteroid had to be vaporized...for no reason really, other than to wank up your results. Your justification for the low end Star Trek combat ranges is laughably stupid. If you were in charge of the US navy, Picard, we'd be screwed in a war. If you seriously think that going within a few hundred meters just to minimize the chances of the other side to evade, while ignoring the fact that such a thing goes both ways, then you clearly don't know that much about naval warfare. Modern day naval battles take place over longer ranges than Star Trek space battles. Sure; there are examples of Star Trek long range battles, but they're small scale engagements. Large scale engagements for some reason involve ranges that are comparable to ancient naval warfare, and even ramming is an effective tactic.

You are comparing Star Trek starship combat to modern naval combat. Actually, if you want to compare it to something modern, you should take fighter planes, as it is 3D environment, manouvering etc. Granted, starships are not asmanouverable as planes, but still it is best possible comparation. Modern fighter planes have missiles that can shoot other planes beyond visual range, yet manouverability in dogfight is considered so important that we got whole new generation of fighter planes with thrust vectoring, new hardware and software (5th generation fighter planes) in order to fare better in close combat. Also, most modern interceptors still have autocannons fitted despite being equipped with BVR missiles.

As for fragmentation/vaporization issue... I took vaporization beacouse:
1) unlike yield we get from fragmentation, it is not in contradiction with rest of canon
2) we already know disruptors of outdated Klingon BoP are in tens or hundreds of megatons per shot

http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... asers.html

A better gauge for photon torpedo yield? The breen attack on Earth. Based on a top down bird's eye view, the fireball is less than 500 meters in diameter. That would therefore be a kiloton level explosion. Also, the death toll for the attack was 8 million and counting. The hundreds of megatons to gigatons level photon torpedos you suggested would cause far, far, far more casualties than that if used on a planet as populated as Earth. In fact, the attack was only on the San Fransico Bay area! A few megaton/gigaton level explosions would essentially destroy San Fransico, but these clearly didn't. There were bridges and buildings still partially intact.

Except that we have evidence of planetary shields in Star Trek.
http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... ssive.html

Also, did you notice that picture of a base delta zero in the other thread? They showed explosions far more energetic than the Breen attack on Earth, especially since they actually turned the planet's surface into molten slag, while the Breen attack...devastated a city and its surrounding area. In fact, the base delta zero feats showed more energetic fireballs than even quantum torpedo explosions.

Base Delta Zero gives yields of up to 1.4 gigatons for heavy turbolasers; GO24 gives us 8-50 GT photon torpedo yield. And I already covered Breen attack on my website.
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWbd0.html
http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/10/e ... -zero.html
http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... ssive.html

That being said however, we're getting really, really off topic. Does anybody have any answer to the multiple challenges in the OP?

It has already been answered several times over by multiple people, including myself.

We know for sure the new guidance system was not exactly working right so even if they were supposedly set for 11% greater yield what is it assumed that what we see is the yield working perfectly?.

For all we know (and the fact that they tend to show a large fiery effect when they hit properly) worf managed to screw up the yield as well so it was only a fraction of what was intended.

Or they intentionally set yield lower so as not to destroy ship had torpedoes turned back. Afterall, we do have variable yields.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I responded to your blog about BDZ vs General Order 24, Picard, in your blog. I posted a comment.