Battle of Endor with trek ships

[User1462]

50 megatons? Wanky as well, more like 50 kj.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Well, I did a recount of the turbolaser bolts in the trading card, and came up with at least 198 discernible bolts with most of those coming from the two SSDs. If we seriously take SWST's dubious claims about the energy being released in that bombardment at 6 gigatons... oh hell, let's be super-generous and say that it's 10 gigatons just to be fair, we have 10 GT divided by about 200 TL bolts.

So now for some basic math.

Ten gigatons is 10,000 megatons, so 10,000/200 = 50 megatons. That's it. 50 megatons per bolt. Obviously some will be a lot smaller than 50 MT and some will be much larger, but that's a pretty crappy average for ships that are supposed to be dishing out a thousand times that easily.

Thus we have 50 megatons average turbolaser bolts compared to 500-1,000 megatons or more for a single Federation quantum torpedo that's being air burst at very high altitude with the express purpose of only dispersing a highly toxic substance.

I wonder how SWST is going to weedle his/her/it's way out of this one.

No offense nowhereman10, but your logical reasoning skills are not looking very good. You do realize, that those 198 bolts are discernible because they're still bolts, and haven't hit the ground and exploded yet? Are you seriously judging the amount of bolts needed to make those explosions with the number of bolts in the air, aka the bolts that haven't hit the ground yet? So you're judging explosions from bolts that have hit the ground...using the number of bolts that haven't hit the ground? Oh, and you use 6 gigatons as the figure (or bump it up to 10), despite the fact that the 6 gigaton figure is for one of the explosions, and yet you use all of the bolts to calculate it? Even though those bolts obviously aren't responsible for the explosions, since they haven't actually hit the ground yet?

And Picard, can you actually make an argument that does not involve blatantly copying darkstar? Are you his biggest fan? You do realize that Leland Chase told darkstar that he was wrong, and that the EU is indeed canon? Are you seriously so obsessed with darkstar that you'd take his word over the guy in charge of canon policy, like, officially?

And 60 kj max? ROFL? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen a trekkie post. Do you seriously think that 60 kj, about the amount of energy you would spend walking up a staircase, could vaporize a small town? Or vaporize 10/20 meter asteroids?

This is getting quite ridiculous. You trekkies actually judge the number of bolts needed to create an explosion by counting the number of bolts that haven't exploded yet. If you see a missile that hasn't exploded yet headed towards a boat, and there is no explosion yet, would you conclude that 1 missile is needed to cause an explosion of 0 kms? Is this the pinnacle of trekkie arguments?

[Lucky]

50 megatons? Wanky as well, more like 50 kj.

We are talking about turbolasers on Star Destroyers and larger ships, and there is some evidence even fighter grade weapons put out more then 50kj.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Seriously though, is anybody willing to defend the idea that judging the #of explosions needed to create an explosion based on the bolts that haven't actually hit the ground yet is even half valid, or even something that a person with figuratively half a brain would think of? How do the number of bolts that haven't actually caused an explosion yet have anything to do with the explosions that are already there, presumably from bolts that HAVE already hit the ground, a number of which we cannot tell for sure.

If you see a 100 kiloton level explosion in a picture, and see no weapons, projectile or otherwise, about to hit the ground, would you go like "hmm...100 kilotons/0...that weapon must have infinite strength!" Or if you do see a bee flying towards it, would you assume that said bee has a kinetic energy of 100 kilotons? Could anybody really seriously think that?

[Admiral Breetai]

Apparently, you think that using the EU is trolling. In other words, you're wrong.

seeing as at no point did any force user in the movies come close to their power level in the EU that at no point...in the movies did any ship show Gt or TT fire power...and barely show..MT in fact...

seeing as about eighty percent of the EU openly contradicts the movies...and ignores them entirely...

Really? Then prove it. Show to me contradictions of the EU. I suspect that your contradictions are going to be copied from ST-vs-SW, but still; show me your evidence, instead of accusing me of trolling.

1, I have never contributed to ST VS SW so my having familiarity with any of their arguments..is likely not to be the case

2, I just banned the use of the EU in this thread as per OP fiat rules..so why bother?

3, your nuts if you think anything from force powers to fire power in the EU has any backing in the movies

On the contrary, see see asteroids hitting a star destroying when its shields are up...and doing absolutely nothing.

I don't recall that happening in the movie proper but if it did it's a wildly contradicting high end showing

Now you're the one trolling if you think that a few hundred Q torpedos can bust up the Death Star 2. The Death Star's shields shrugged off supersonic/hypersonic mountain chunks hitting it...even though its shielding was said to be rather low, as a trade off to power the superlaser.

seeing as that never happened in the movie, I call BS

[

Red herring, and strawman. I'm not denying that ST weapons have caused "world devastating" damage, but that doesn't have anything to do with my calculations, which you conveniently ignored.

your numbers are non canon third party fan calcs and your also a massive biased who got caught lying in this very thread I am dismissing your numbers outright..as is my right to do..under those circumstances

they should mass scatter the death star based on that fact it certainly never withstood any fire power on that level in the movie

[

And this post is substantial how? The Federation reinforcements could do little through brute force or conventional warfare. The only way that they help is by using creative tactics that they may or may not have the intelligence to think up of, and that may or may not work.[

they have superior feats of fire power to anything displayed in the wars movies..superior speed and range to anything displayed in the movies..

they should be able to smash up ISD's based on that alone much less the DS2

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Interesting calculation from spacebattles.com:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthre ... ost2522719

And if you're going to leave out the EU, despite Leland Chase specifically including EU in the Star Wars continuity; ever heard of C canon?, then this thread is basically a skewed thread, and an attempt at a spite; but it isn't a spite, because Star Wars still has the advantage in firepower and durability. If we don't include the butterfly effect, the Rebel Alliance still probably wins, but the Federation reinforcements can only be significantly helpful if they think up of creative and effective tactics, but brute force wouldn't work.

[Admiral Breetai]

Interesting calculation from spacebattles.com:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthre ... ost2522719]

I've been in more flame wars with SB'ers then any other posters save SDN'ers I has very little care for what they say

And if you're going to leave out the EU, despite Leland Chase specifically including EU in the Star Wars continuity;

chee can say what ever he wants if the primary canon is contradicted the second hand sources are entirely invalid

ever heard of C canon?,

you mean non sense

then this thread is basically a skewed thread, and an attempt at a spite; but it isn't a spite,

I eliminated the Eu to avoid shitstorm canon debates that typically follow you still haven't answered for your blatant dishonesty or error earlier in this thread

because Star Wars still has the advantage in firepower and durability.

no they don't

If we don't include the butterfly effect, the Rebel Alliance still probably wins, but the Federation reinforcements can only be significantly helpful if they think up of creative and effective tactics, but brute force wouldn't work.

they may not need to worry about the DS2 when the feds get done with it sereing as it'll be free floating debris

[Lucky]

On the contrary, see see asteroids hitting a star destroying when its shields are up...and doing absolutely nothing.

I don't recall that happening in the movie proper but if it did it's a wildly contradicting high end showing

The Hoth Asteroid Field
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rnyWNoFb58&NR=1

[sonofccn]

Interesting calculation from spacebattles.com:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthre ... ost2522719

The one about the DS2 being rocked from explosions which is assumed to be literally by being pushed by Rebel( or Deathstar it appears) fire?

Citing this scene as evidence of the intense shifting of plane the death star was undergoing. (@4:00 mark onward)

I mean Luke couldn't have stumbled for any other reason than massive shipquakes, certainly it couldn't because he'd just been flash fried by force lightening and was only alive because Vader stepped up and saved him.

[Admiral Breetai]

The Hoth Asteroid Field
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rnyWNoFb58&NR=1

lol threepio cock blocking...that and i miss chimp face emperor

so the guy makes repeated notes of how much damage they're battle group is taken while another guy dies in fire live on holotube while vader watches cause an asteroid smushes his ship

then we get tie bombers supposedly able to toss down Gt's of ordinance on a big asteroid thats not blowing up...

I'm not seeing anything about them shrugging off asteroid if anything it all seems to point towards the opposite

[Mike DiCenso]

Well, I did a recount of the turbolaser bolts in the trading card, and came up with at least 198 discernible bolts with most of those coming from the two SSDs. If we seriously take SWST's dubious claims about the energy being released in that bombardment at 6 gigatons... oh hell, let's be super-generous and say that it's 10 gigatons just to be fair, we have 10 GT divided by about 200 TL bolts.

So now for some basic math.

Ten gigatons is 10,000 megatons, so 10,000/200 = 50 megatons. That's it. 50 megatons per bolt. Obviously some will be a lot smaller than 50 MT and some will be much larger, but that's a pretty crappy average for ships that are supposed to be dishing out a thousand times that easily.

Thus we have 50 megatons average turbolaser bolts compared to 500-1,000 megatons or more for a single Federation quantum torpedo that's being air burst at very high altitude with the express purpose of only dispersing a highly toxic substance.

I wonder how SWST is going to weedle his/her/it's way out of this one.

No offense nowhereman10, but your logical reasoning skills are not looking very good. You do realize, that those 198 bolts are discernible because they're still bolts, and haven't hit the ground and exploded yet? Are you seriously judging the amount of bolts needed to make those explosions with the number of bolts in the air, aka the bolts that haven't hit the ground yet? So you're judging explosions from bolts that have hit the ground...using the number of bolts that haven't hit the ground? Oh, and you use 6 gigatons as the figure (or bump it up to 10), despite the fact that the 6 gigaton figure is for one of the explosions, and yet you use all of the bolts to calculate it? Even though those bolts obviously aren't responsible for the explosions, since they haven't actually hit the ground yet?

And Picard, can you actually make an argument that does not involve blatantly copying darkstar? Are you his biggest fan? You do realize that Leland Chase told darkstar that he was wrong, and that the EU is indeed canon? Are you seriously so obsessed with darkstar that you'd take his word over the guy in charge of canon policy, like, officially?

And 60 kj max? ROFL? That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen a trekkie post. Do you seriously think that 60 kj, about the amount of energy you would spend walking up a staircase, could vaporize a small town? Or vaporize 10/20 meter asteroids?

This is getting quite ridiculous. You trekkies actually judge the number of bolts needed to create an explosion by counting the number of bolts that haven't exploded yet. If you see a missile that hasn't exploded yet headed towards a boat, and there is no explosion yet, would you conclude that 1 missile is needed to cause an explosion of 0 kms? Is this the pinnacle of trekkie arguments?

This, coming from the guy that can't tell a fanmade video and photoshopped picture from the actual thing. Seriously, Nowhereman was right, you are just handwaving and weedling your way around. Of course the number of bolts are reasonable. A more vaild analogy would be seeing a few dozen B-17 or B-29 bombers dropping bombs on Tokyo or Osaka, and counting the number of bombs in free fall to get a rough idea of their yeild. Is it perfect? No. But it's all we have to go by until we get to see three B-29 bombers overr Hiroshima and Nagasaki and destroying them with a single bomb to know that something unsual is up.

The facts are that we see a massive bombardment in progress and we have to assume that the bombardment has been under way for at least a few seconds, or maybe even a few minutes. More importantly, no matter how you try and dodge it, the firepower on display there is nothing close to ICS level. You have failed numerous times to prove it, dispite people asking you to. You also demonstrated, as JMS himself pointed out that your half-ass analysis that you did eventually throw out was extremely flawed.

A 2:54 in the Hoth asteroid field video that was linked , you can see TIEs strafing the floor the big asteroid with little effect, in particular at 2:55-57, one TIE hits a relatively small rock outcropping's peak and all we see are little pretty red sparkles. With the Hiroshima-level firepower ICS claims starfighters are capable of throwing out, that rock outcropping would have been blasted to tiny pieces. At the very least the upper half of it would be blown apart from rapid thermal expansion. But instead all we see are the pathetic little red sparkles. Now why is that? Oh yeah, because they can't produce that much firepower, and anyone who makes apologetic excuses is just deluding themselves since why would the Falcon be threatened by such weak firepower? Why not just float around in the asteroid field bouncing off of rocks, and letting the TIEs get destroyed completely before finding a hiding place? Oh that's right, because it's shields are nowhere near the low gigaton range that ICS and Saxton would claim.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Interesting calculation from spacebattles.com:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthre ... ost2522719

And if you're going to leave out the EU, despite Leland Chase specifically including EU in the Star Wars continuity; ever heard of C canon?, then this thread is basically a skewed thread, and an attempt at a spite; but it isn't a spite, because Star Wars still has the advantage in firepower and durability. If we don't include the butterfly effect, the Rebel Alliance still probably wins, but the Federation reinforcements can only be significantly helpful if they think up of creative and effective tactics, but brute force wouldn't work.

Those calcs are hilarious! I love how the guy claims that the 900 km scaling of the DS2 isn't in dispute dispite the fact that it's a rather contentous point and even Gary M. Sarli
producing this "The Truth about the "Endor Holocaust" article that debunks the 900 km number, among other things.

So once again we have another Warsie using upper limits. Ho hum. Also there are some blatently outright falsehoods in those calculations, aside from the 900 km number. From page 172 the Death Star 2 rocks for the first time when the SSD Executor slams into it:

"For the first time the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding Destroyer was only the beginging, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos.

Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam exlosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel cruisers--- smelling fear in the enemy--- merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive."

So it is the SSD that caused the station to rock, not the turbolasers from the Rebel ships. And yes, Virgina, there were massive system failures and stuff exploding, contrary to what the SBC Warsie said.
-Mike

[Lucky]

The Hoth Asteroid Field
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rnyWNoFb58&NR=1

lol threepio cock blocking...that and i miss chimp face emperor

so the guy makes repeated notes of how much damage they're battle group is taken while another guy dies in fire live on holotube while vader watches cause an asteroid smushes his ship

then we get tie bombers supposedly able to toss down Gt's of ordinance on a big asteroid thats not blowing up...

I'm not seeing anything about them shrugging off asteroid if anything it all seems to point towards the opposite

If you look closely you will see an explosion on the opposite side of the SSD then the Star Destroyer that got the bridge tower nocked off.

[Picard]

And Picard, can you actually make an argument that does not involve blatantly copying darkstar? Are you his biggest fan? You do realize that Leland Chase told darkstar that he was wrong, and that the EU is indeed canon? Are you seriously so obsessed with darkstar that you'd take his word over the guy in charge of canon policy, like, officially?

Oh, now you're switching to trolling. Have you ever heard term independent calculations? Obviously not. And EU is not canon, I already proved that.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

And Picard, can you actually make an argument that does not involve blatantly copying darkstar? Are you his biggest fan? You do realize that Leland Chase told darkstar that he was wrong, and that the EU is indeed canon? Are you seriously so obsessed with darkstar that you'd take his word over the guy in charge of canon policy, like, officially?

Oh, now you're switching to trolling. Have you ever heard term independent calculations? Obviously not. And EU is not canon, I already proved that.

Red herring. I don't know where you go this idea that you were using independent calculations from, and how you can possibly use calculations on canon policy. That being said, what's your rebuttal to this:


* C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

"C-canon is Continuity Canon". How do you respond to this?

And since when are any of your proofs independent? You linked to ST-vs-SW in a significant portion of your posts, and occasionally to your blog, which almost always has references to that site. Wow.