Battle of Endor with trek ships

[sonofccn]

There is no evidence of heavy jamming of Star Trek ships in large scale battles, so your explanation is complete speculation. To be honest, the idea that its due to poor coordination is not a good explanation either. Therefore, we don't know why they don't have large scale BVR battles, but we do know that their large scale battles are within a few hundred meters to a few kms. Therefore, they'd have to move within the same distance to engage Star Wars ships too.

I believe WILGA was trying, perhaps being a bit to subtle, to press a point to you. Namely that your speculation that they can not target ships at long in a large fleet battle is as much speculation as his about heavy jamming. All we know for certain is that they have demostrated long range fire and they have demostrated closing the distance. We have one stated reason for this, reducing reaction time, and thats it. Anything else we might conjecture why they do what they do is simply that, and if one wishes to override cannonicaly displayed feats one much bring much more evidence than you have mustered.

I'm not, but since most of the battles take place at short range, then in vs scenarios, we must also make most of them short range battles, and not assume ST always has the upper range, since it doesn't in its own universe...

While I don't believe Federation ships are going to sit out at the 300,000 mark plinging away as if they are at a turkey shoot nor will I assume they must fight at spitball ranges. Range is a Federation advantage and we shouldn't assume they throw it away anymore than we should assume they are going to exploit it to its maximum. Now personally I don't think its going to be that big of a matter, ISDs are not that slow and can perform hyperspace jumps if the are attacked beyond their maximum effective range.

To me accuracy and yield are far more important matters in this situation.

[Who is like God arbour]

An observed fact based on lots of footage is that they have a few battles at short ranges. Full stop.

Really?
So you've watched all of Trek and counted all the short range engagements and they were fewer in number than the long range?
Really?
Because I don't remember the same thing you do, it seems to me the majority of ship to ship battle, either in group or alone, happens at spitting range...
Strange, hun?

What is your problem? That I used the word » few «? But » few « does not mean » fewer in number «. It merely means » a small number of «. And compared to the total time of all Star Trek film footage, the time in which a battle happened, is relative low.

Or do you think, that, as StarWarsStarTrek claimed, the film footage shows that » Trek ships cannot fight at BVR in large scale space battles « » because they can't coordinate the attacks, or they aren't accurate enough «. If that is your opinion, then I want to see the film footage that is showing exactly that.

And yes, I've seen all Star Trek movies and episodes. But I have never claimed, that » short range engagements [...] were fewer in number than the long range «.

You on the other hand have claimed that the ratio between short range engagements and long range engagements is something like 5 : 100 - without providing any evidence.

I asked you too provide evidence because I think that there aren't so many battles in Star Trek and that such a ratio is not propably. After all, there are only 11 movies and 703 episodes. And in most episodes, there is no battle at all. And we have already 16 events with weapon ranges far greater than spitting distance [O] (spitting distance < 100 km.). There are 12 events with a weapons range of more than 1.000 km.

And now please tell me how many examples you have, where battles happened at spitting distance or less than 100 km. For 5: 100 to be correct, you should have more than 300 examples.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Really? Then what is your in universe justification for this:


Even if their targeting systems were jammed, a little optical data and some math should have allowed them to hit the borg cube fine. And we know that their sensors weren't being jammed because they were communicating just fine and even in some cases scanned parts of the borg cube.

The Federation reinforcements would not outrange the star destroyers. They can't really do anything to the Death Star 2 through brute force, and their photon torpedos and phasers can't really harm the star destroyers later (proof of this later). They can contribute in a few ways:

1. Although unlikely to work, if they can somehow beam aboard the Death Star 2 with a significant amount of men skilled in infantry combat and a map of the Death Star 2, they could cause some chaos
2. They could run circles around the imperial fleet at high speed and hope that the imperials are stupid enough to waste time firing at them
3. They could beam aboard a friendly Rebel ship, but beforehand accelerate their ships to a significant portion of C, somehow set the antimatter reactors to blow up upon impact, and ram star destroyers.

They wouldn't they be able to harm star destroyers?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN5cR_1Y ... re=related

At around 2:50, a high altitude shot of an attack against unshielded Earth is shown. The fireball itself is comparable in size to...a highway road, or what appears to be a school or another building. Comparing this to google maps San Fansisco, and the fireball radius (not the shockwave) is less than a km; less than 500 meters, in fact, making it a low kiloton level impact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHTtOMWRysg

Quantum torpedos being fired at a planet. That's definitely not megaton level. In fact, given the fireball duration it's not really kiloton level, but I suppose that the fact that it's "quantum" makes it act different. Oh, and later it fires on another starship...at point blank range. Oh!

From Star Wars Rise of Darth Vader we know that the star destroyers in the asteroid belt were withstand asteroids that acted like multi megaton compession bombs. The star destroyers would have had to wait in there for at least a day for the bounty hunters to arrive, right? So if a day of withstanding multi megaton compression bomb like asteroids can't defeat a star destroyer, how can these kiloton level explosions do so?

[Admiral Breetai]

that is the most hilarious distortion of evidence I have ever seen and I honestly haven't seen warsies try to be this tragically obvious since the sdn invasions of rumbles

the first scene with the little d's torps you have to blind to seriously...think that something that produces a shockwave that covers half the planet the way it did in that very video..and the explosion is visible from god damn orbit...despite the little D being about at least a thousand or so miles away from the site...are bridge or high way sizes..that's beyond distortion

and this is what I don't understand about you DOW's and saxtonites and rabbid warsies at large...are you so god damn blindly biased you extort threaten and badger and demand an individual be absolutely personally accountable often times to the extent that yall demand personal information be sited online (which is insane in and of itself) and demand 100% honesty from the other side..but it's totally okay to go and do something like this?

as to your second scene..the dominion war web series..you cannot be serious you seriously..cannot be genuinely! i mean wholly hannah..are you for real? Have you never seen a single Deep space nine episode? are you for real? those bombardment scenes come from god damned movies..and other tv shows..that dude made a clip show..dedicated to the dominion war..and often times edited many scenes

what you just cited as evidence for lack of fire power reaching even megs..certainly proves that skynet...the cylons..and that ahnuld..movie universes do not have that firepower...seeing as he grabbed those scenes..and used it..as an example of "what might of happened" it is not actually from startrek

you are literally attempting to pass off a fan series with scenes from another movie..as star trek canon..and evidence for fire power..either you have never seen the series..(and honestly you can't tell the difference between nineties CGI and modern?) or you are intentionally engaging in the misrepresentation of evidence to prove your point

either way....your blatantly wrong..and your not debating objectively..in the slightest..

[Who is like God arbour]

I believe I've never seen one arguing so stupid as you do.

The image you provided, is the product of photoshop. It is not from any Star Trek movie or episode.

The first video you provided, is a fanmade video with scenes from other series and movies. The scene you have referred to, is not from Star Trek. Such an attack on Earth by the Dominion has never happened.

The second video you provided shows that the shockwave of the exploding quantum torpedos has reached a diameter of more than ten thousand kilometers in less than one second. Ask yourself, what an explosion can cause such a shockwave.

Furthermore, we are seeing the impact region from a distance of several thousand kilometers. Do you really believe, that you could see a fireball at this distance?

And have you ever seen an atomic explosion? A fireball and mushroom after the detonation is not there at once. Both needs a few moments to expand. And to be seen from a distance of several thousand kilometers, it has to expand a lot. But your video sequence ends before it could have expanded that far.

Regarding » Rise of Darth Vader «: Do you have a quote? Or are you only parroting what other have said?

Furthermore, if Star Wars ships were as tough as you believe, how does it come, that their hulls are burning off already during an entry into an atmosphere?

How does it come, that their weapons don't do any significant damage to unshielded objects? Remember TESB and the TIE fighters which chased the Falcon? A few shots of them missed and hit the asteroid over which they flew. But there were no giant explosions. Or the TIE bombers later? Again no giant explosions. Or the Imperial Walkers on Hoth? Again no giant explosions. In the novelization of RotS, it is described how heavily damaged ships, that were nothing more than empty shells, were able to blockade the way of the Invisible Hand. These ships had no shields any more and yet the Invisible Hand was not able to destroy them. The shields of the Invisible Hand were destroyed too and other ships fired on her but were unable to breach the armour. The same armour burned of when the Invisible Hand entered the atmosphere of Couruscant. Or the ground battles in AotC and RotS? Again no giant explosions.

And it continues in TCW.

If there is one constant in all Star Wars movies and episodes, than it is their low firepower. The only exception is the Death Star. And if Star Wars ships have only low firepower, their shields can't be that strong.

If a novel suddenly claims huge firepower without explaining, why in the movies no greater firepower was shown, that novel violates higher canon. It may be canon, but it is invalid canon.

[Admiral Breetai]

I'm pretty sure he's never seen star trek ds9 or if he did we just caught him red handed lying and distorting proof to prove his point

if you haven't it's a good lesson in whyyou shouldn't parrot arguments and to take it step further maybe you should stop parroting the arguments of a group of people who have more in common with lunatics and cyberterrorists..then they do objective debaters

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Wow...you guys...wow.

Sure, that's a fanmade photo, accurately depicting the low end battle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJZbCNexctc

In fact, the fanmade photo actually shows longer combat ranges than the actual thing.

Oh, and an attack on Earth in ST didn't happen? http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Breen_attack_on_Earth Oh really? Sure, it wasn't directly by the dominion, but the event still happened, unless if you think that the entire footage was fan made; it's quite clearly too real looking to have been fan made.

Did you seriously claim that the shockwave spread across half of Earth? The shockwave didn't even go across all of San Fransisco! The casualty count in the footage was about 8 million and increasing. A shockwave that spread across half of the Earth would have caused hundreds of millions to billions of casualties, not 8 million. The fireball, which was not expanding; only shockwave was, was less than 500 meters in diameter. In fact, depending on how you scale it the fireball could be less than 100 meters in diameter. At most it's high kiloton, maybe very low megaton level. The less powerful weapons, maybe from the fighters, are on par with modern day bunker busters or maybe lower on par with heavy air to ground missiles, which are capable of seriously threatening Federation starships. And the PoV is not from several thousand kms up. If it was, we'd be seeing the entire Earth from orbit, but in that footage we only see what appears to be San Fransico.

[Praeothmin]

What is your problem? That I used the word » few «? But » few « does not mean » fewer in number «. It merely means » a small number of «. And compared to the total time of all Star Trek film footage, the time in which a battle happened, is relative low.

Or do you think, that, as StarWarsStarTrek claimed, the film footage shows that » Trek ships cannot fight at BVR in large scale space battles « » because they can't coordinate the attacks, or they aren't accurate enough «. If that is your opinion, then I want to see the film footage that is showing exactly that.

And yes, I've seen all Star Trek movies and episodes. But I have never claimed, that » short range engagements [...] were fewer in number than the long range «.

You on the other hand have claimed that the ratio between short range engagements and long range engagements is something like 5 : 100 - without providing any evidence.

I asked you too provide evidence because I think that there aren't so many battles in Star Trek and that such a ratio is not propably. After all, there are only 11 movies and 703 episodes. And in most episodes, there is no battle at all. And we have already 16 events with weapon ranges far greater than spitting distance [O] (spitting distance < 100 km.). There are 12 events with a weapons range of more than 1.000 km.

And now please tell me how many examples you have, where battles happened at spitting distance or less than 100 km. For 5: 100 to be correct, you should have more than 300 examples.

There's no way I'm going through all the series just for this, but here are a few:
-Errand of Mercy (TOS);
-The Doomsday machine (TOS);
-ST: First Contact;
-ST: Generations;
-ST: Ins;
-ST: TwoK;
-ST: TMP;
-ST III;
-ST V;
-ST VI: TUC;
-ST: NEM;
-TNG, BobW;
-TNG, Descent;
-DS9, Emissary (Borg Battle Wolf 359);
-DS9, The Maquis;
-DS9, the Jem Hadar,
-DS9, Defiant;
-DS9, the search;

18 examples, and I only looked at seasons 1 and 2 of TOS, seasons 1, 2 and the beginning of 3 for DS9, and I haven't even looked at Voyager or ENT...
Maybe I won't get 100 ship battles, and maybe the ratio will be 20-80, which still makes it 80%, or the majority, but I'll be damn close, and they won't be long range affairs...

[Mike DiCenso]

The Doomsday machine (TOS)

Bzzt. The only reason the Enterprise engaged the DDM at close range was because Crazy Matt ordered it so. We see later on the Constellation fire it's single phaser at the thing from what appears to be long range in both the original as well as remastered versions.

ST: TMP

Bzzt! Strike two. The Klingon K'tinga-class battlecruiser in the opening of the movie fires on the V'Ger cloud with three torpedoes that had to have traveled millions of kilometers at the very least to reach the cloud boundry, never mind the center of the cloud, and V'Ger itself shoots those green plasma digitizers definitely multiple A.U.s to hit the Klingon ships and later the Enterprise.

Try at least to take a little bit more time to go over your examples.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Wow...you guys...wow.

Sure, that's a fanmade photo, accurately depicting the low end battle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJZbCNexctc

In fact, the fanmade photo actually shows longer combat ranges than the actual thing.

Um, no it does not. Not by a long shot. The Borg cube is ST:FC is 3 km wide, using some simple photometrics, we can determine that when the fleet is reorganized under Picard's command, and all the available surviving ships fire on the cube, starting at time index 1:50 to 1:54, they are doing so from at least 3-5 km based on how the cube subtends across the camera's field of view in the scene, and are moving in closer to the cube as they fire. By contrast, the fan pic shows distances no greater than a few hundred meters.

So, would you care to try again?

Oh, and an attack on Earth in ST didn't happen? http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Breen_attack_on_Earth Oh really? Sure, it wasn't directly by the dominion, but the event still happened, unless if you think that the entire footage was fan made; it's quite clearly too real looking to have been fan made.

Did you seriously claim that the shockwave spread across half of Earth? The shockwave didn't even go across all of San Fransisco! The casualty count in the footage was about 8 million and increasing. A shockwave that spread across half of the Earth would have caused hundreds of millions to billions of casualties, not 8 million. The fireball, which was not expanding; only shockwave was, was less than 500 meters in diameter. In fact, depending on how you scale it the fireball could be less than 100 meters in diameter. At most it's high kiloton, maybe very low megaton level. The less powerful weapons, maybe from the fighters, are on par with modern day bunker busters or maybe lower on par with heavy air to ground missiles, which are capable of seriously threatening Federation starships. And the PoV is not from several thousand kms up. If it was, we'd be seeing the entire Earth from orbit, but in that footage we only see what appears to be San Fransico.

That is a fanmade video with some scenes cut from DS9's "Favor the Bold" and "Sacrifice of Angels" interspliced with several other sci fi series. Just read the commentaries for the video, several of those scenes are identified from the Stargate franchise, among others.

We also know that Federation worlds do have planetary shields from as early as TOS' "Whom Gods Destroy", so damage being limited is not suprising, and like starship shields, you still have to pound your way through them.

The Breen attack on Earth from the episode "The Changing Face of Evil" is never shown, only some brief descriptions along with an equally brief shot of some wreckage as seen here. Also note that Earth's defenses did destroy most of the Breen fleet that carried out the attack.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

Wow...you guys...wow.]

no you..either your monumentally ignorant..or your making an effort to continue to hide your own..lie

Sure, that's a fanmade photo, accurately depicting the low end battle.

and you seriously think non canon third party art is valid evidence? primary canon..that is all

]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJZbCNexctc

In fact, the fanmade photo actually shows longer combat ranges than the actual thing.

obvious biased is obvious

Oh, and an attack on Earth in ST didn't happen? http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Breen_attack_on_Earth Oh really? Sure, it wasn't directly by the dominion, but the event still happened, unless if you think that the entire footage was fan made; it's quite clearly too real looking to have been fan made.

so that's a no..you've never seen star trek deep space nine? so that's a yes your completely unable to tell when the video..shifts to an entirely separate clip from an entirely different series/movie?

your either lying..or oblivious which is it?

The casualty count in the footage was about 8 million and increasing.

which was taken from the movie starship troopers..when the bugs launched a meteor onto Buenos Aires...good job at being completely unable to tell what's actual ds9 footage and whats taken from other movies

I'm curious as to when your going to concede you screwed up here

A shockwave that spread across half of the Earth would have caused hundreds of millions to billions of casualties, not 8 million.

why are you siting a clip from starship troopers..from a non canon fan made movie as valid evidence?

The fireball, which was not expanding; only shockwave was, was less than 500 meters in diameter. In fact, depending on how you scale it the fireball could be less than 100 meters in diameter. At most it's high kiloton, maybe very low megaton level. The less powerful weapons, maybe from the fighters, are on par with modern day bunker busters or maybe lower on par with heavy air to ground missiles, which are capable of seriously threatening Federation starships. And the PoV is not from several thousand kms up. If it was, we'd be seeing the entire Earth from orbit, but in that footage we only see what appears to be San Fransico.

starship troopers..terminator 3 and battlestar Galactica..clips where used in the making of that sequence...that you have seriously presented this as evidence..is both hilarious..and shocking

you are either ignorant of the actual series..and so hell bent on winning for your precious Sw that your willing..to continue to push this nonsense...or your knowingly complicit in an on going attempt to lie and distort evidence to prove a point?

which is it?

[Who is like God arbour]

If even fanmade videos are allowed as evidence, than this videos proves what will happen in a fight of a Constellation class starship against an Imperial Star Destroyer.

This videos proves that the Enterprise D is more then enough to destroy an Imperial Super Star Destroyer.

In this video you can see, how a StarFleet flotilla makes short process with an Imperial Star Destroyer.

Case closed.

[Trinoya]

I just... I..

..
.. you actually provided false evidence? That's like... a ban worthy offense at most forums if you do so deliberately and not by accident... and you then claimed it was still accurate and 'too real' to have been faked..

I..

... Just.. whoa..

Did you seriously claim that the shockwave spread across half of Earth? The shockwave didn't even go across all of San Fransisco! The casualty count in the footage was about 8 million and increasing.

That's Moscow, the 8 million figure is from a fictional asteroid impact with earth that hit Buenos Aires.

The less powerful weapons, maybe from the fighters,

The dominion doesn't field fighters.

Also: FTR there are only two events in all of star trek in which we see an orbital attack on Earth. These are those times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8zsdIQe ... re=related

And this one as well by the upgraded version of that weapon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHCNha9Xxas

Please note: Both events take place several hundred years BEFORE deep space nine, and even before a federation existed.


Now then:

Quantum torpedos being fired at a planet. That's definitely not megaton level. In fact, given the fireball duration it's not really kiloton level, but I suppose that the fact that it's "quantum" makes it act different. Oh, and later it fires on another starship...at point blank range. Oh!

ONE: This is proof of ranges measured in tens of thousands of kilometers.

TWO: Those quantum torpedoes had their warheads removed and were replaced with a chemical warhead to infect the entire planet with a harmful substance.

THREE: There is no visible range in the second part of the video, it shows the entire battle from the view screen save for the act of firing.




Last but not least! ^_^ For reference I've linked you here to some of the movie scenes that were used in that video... ya know, for debunking purposes.

The first 'volley' are actually asteroids from the movie Armageddon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggJboWWo7lM

The next series of 'nuclear explosions' is from terminator and has been mirrored.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NKqhqIN3Zc

Your death toll comes straight from starship troopers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp7sN5Njo1o

We also see the destruction of moscow, from stargate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A66B1oIdUM

Edit: If you want to get really involved in this debate, I suggest getting more familiar with the source material, no one is gonna hold it against you if you have not watched all of star trek, but you have to at least screen your evidence first. Many of the relevant episodes for the debate can be found on youtube.

[Who is like God arbour]

What is your problem? That I used the word » few «? But » few « does not mean » fewer in number «. It merely means » a small number of «. And compared to the total time of all Star Trek film footage, the time in which a battle happened, is relative low.

Or do you think, that, as StarWarsStarTrek claimed, the film footage shows that » Trek ships cannot fight at BVR in large scale space battles « » because they can't coordinate the attacks, or they aren't accurate enough «. If that is your opinion, then I want to see the film footage that is showing exactly that.

And yes, I've seen all Star Trek movies and episodes. But I have never claimed, that » short range engagements [...] were fewer in number than the long range «.

You on the other hand have claimed that the ratio between short range engagements and long range engagements is something like 5 : 100 - without providing any evidence.

I asked you too provide evidence because I think that there aren't so many battles in Star Trek and that such a ratio is not propably. After all, there are only 11 movies and 703 episodes. And in most episodes, there is no battle at all. And we have already 16 events with weapon ranges far greater than spitting distance [O] (spitting distance < 100 km.). There are 12 events with a weapons range of more than 1.000 km.

And now please tell me how many examples you have, where battles happened at spitting distance or less than 100 km. For 5: 100 to be correct, you should have more than 300 examples.

There's no way I'm going through all the series just for this, but here are a few:
-Errand of Mercy (TOS);
-The Doomsday machine (TOS);
-ST: First Contact;
-ST: Generations;
-ST: Ins;
-ST: TwoK;
-ST: TMP;
-ST III;
-ST V;
-ST VI: TUC;
-ST: NEM;
-TNG, BobW;
-TNG, Descent;
-DS9, Emissary (Borg Battle Wolf 359);
-DS9, The Maquis;
-DS9, the Jem Hadar,
-DS9, Defiant;
-DS9, the search;

18 examples, and I only looked at seasons 1 and 2 of TOS, seasons 1, 2 and the beginning of 3 for DS9, and I haven't even looked at Voyager or ENT...
Maybe I won't get 100 ship battles, and maybe the ratio will be 20-80, which still makes it 80%, or the majority, but I'll be damn close, and they won't be long range affairs...

It's funny: You claimed a ratio of 5 : 100. I said that there are at least 16 events with weapon ranges far greater than spitting distance (spitting distance < 100 km).

Now you provide 18 examples of battles at spitting distances. And a few of them are more than questionable as Mike DiCenso has already shown (ST:TMP would be another example of higher weapon ranges). That's 16 : 18 and far off of 5 : 100.

And yes, I'm sure that you would find more examples for short range engagements. But I doubt you you will come near to a ratio of 5 : 100.

And a ratio of 20 : 80 means that there are only four times as many short range battles than there are long range battles. That's not enough to dismiss the long range battles as outliers.

But a ratio of 20 : 80 assumes that you would be able to find 60 more short range battles. And this after you looked already through 11 movies and at least 50 episodes out of 79 episodes from TOS and round about 55 episodes out of 176 episodes from DS9.

[Praeothmin]

Try at least to take a little bit more time to go over your examples.
-Mike

Really, out of the 18 examples I bring out, you only take out 2?
That still leaves 16 examples from a very quick search, so still not a problem...

It's funny: You claimed a ratio of 5 : 100. I said that there are at least 16 events with weapon ranges far greater than spitting distance (spitting distance < 100 km).
.

Yup, and then I admitted my ratio could be off, because I stated my ratio was based off of memory...

Now you provide 18 examples of battles at spitting distances. And a few of them are more than questionable as Mike DiCenso has already shown (ST:TMP would be another example of higher weapon ranges). That's 16 : 18 and far off of 5 : 100.

These examples were provided after a quick search.
I do not have the time, nor do I wish to make the time, to research the entire ST universe for this.
And this cursory examination quickly brought me 16 examples of very short range, and as you said:

But a ratio of 20 : 80 assumes that you would be able to find 60 more short range battles. And this after you looked already through 11 movies and at least 50 episodes out of 79 episodes from TOS and round about 55 episodes out of 176 episodes from DS9

And I would stil have to examine all of TNG (176 hours), Voyager (176 hours), ENT (100 hours) and the remaining 29 hours of TOS, and 121 hours of DS9...
Yeah, 80 short range examples out of 600 hours of tv...
I'm sure it would be difficult...

And an 80% spitball range means that the majority of the battles are in close range, so the why becomes important, and since we've seen ST sensors being fooled by a planet's magnetic pole "The Hunted", then I'm sure the ECM of SW will affect them...