A challenge to Trekkies

[Praeothmin]

The presence of BDZs implies at least megaton level firepower. Although some BDZs are less impressive than others, the higher end BDZs are numerous enough that they can be considered to be possible and not some sort of fluke. Therefore, we have a turbolaser firepower in the gigatons, thus validating the ICS and other higher end claims.

At no point do megaton level weapons justify the gigaton level quote.

BDZ has no time frame given, you could achieve such effects with SUB KILOTON weapons given enough time (mind you, I'm not claiming that they are sub kiloton). Simply put, megaton level weapons are more than enough to accomplish ANY of the observable BDZ effects.

Also: Since the guns on the acclamator do not exist they therefore contradict G-Cannon.

A BDZ is to be carried out with no less then three Star Destroyers as I recall, and can have hundreds of smaller ships helping.

And was never seen in any movie or even in TCW...
So higher does not, in any way, support ICS...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

The presence of BDZs implies at least megaton level firepower. Although some BDZs are less impressive than others, the higher end BDZs are numerous enough that they can be considered to be possible and not some sort of fluke. Therefore, we have a turbolaser firepower in the gigatons, thus validating the ICS and other higher end claims.

At no point do megaton level weapons justify the gigaton level quote.

BDZ has no time frame given, you could achieve such effects with SUB KILOTON weapons given enough time (mind you, I'm not claiming that they are sub kiloton). Simply put, megaton level weapons are more than enough to accomplish ANY of the observable BDZ effects.

Also: Since the guns on the acclamator do not exist they therefore contradict G-Cannon.

The Star Wars Technical Journal, which iirc was pre AOTC ICS, states that BDZs can be done in a few hours. Several sources confirm or imply that a single star destroyer can do it. Granted, the few hours claim could be referring to a large fleet, but still puts a BDZ from a star destroyer being within 24 hours, requiring high megaton to low gigaton firepower as a lower limit.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

The Star Wars Technical Journal, which iirc was pre AOTC ICS, states that BDZs can be done in a few hours. Several sources confirm or imply that a single star destroyer can do it. Granted, the few hours claim could be referring to a large fleet, but still puts a BDZ from a star destroyer being within 24 hours, requiring high megaton to low gigaton firepower as a lower limit.

I suggest you read this page:-

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWbd0.html

[mojo]

i think i was misunderstood. these are facts we're talking about rather than opinions. this guy said 'give me this evidence and i'll concede the point'. this evidence is immediately given, over and over again. on almost EVERY SINGLE VALID POINT, he doesn't even bother to TRY to debunk the point, he simply ignores it or reasserts a point he made earlier which was itself instantly debunked. when this is instantly debunked again, sometimes USING SEPARATE LOGIC from the FIRST TIME it was debunked, he simply ignores it and moves on. he has no intention of living up to the bargain he himself made, and the terms he himself outlined have been fulfilled a dozen times or more.
now, i wasn't saying 'hey JMS ban this guy because he doesn't agree with my opinions'. it bothers me that apparently that is how i sounded. i was frustrated and should have taken a little longer to gather my thoughts. but even if i were to agree with the idea that every single piece of evidence thrown on the wall in this thread were simple opinions, then i personally think it's his responsibility to at least TRY to show why the evidence is faulty. he made a deal and he should man up. you could argue that he is one and you are many, so hey, maybe he's just taking his time and he hasn't gotten around to all the points that have been made. here's the thing, tho - many of these points have been made multiple times over TWELVE PAGES, and the guy has written huge walls of text. if there were logical, valid responses to the points made, he would have made them by now. i'm going to go ahead and predict the future here - he will not do this. he will simply continue to ignore them or go back to old arguments and force you to debunk them again and again.
anyway, the banning thing was just me letting off steam. but seriously, man, JUST ADMIT DEFEAT or show us why you're right on the salient points.[/quote]

Why don't you back up your claims? Show me these oh-so-brilliant points that I supposedly can't counter.

The absolute lower limit for turbolaser firepower is in the low kilotons based on the asteroid vaporization scene. Therefore, all instances if sub kiloton turbolaser firepower is overriden by G canon, with the rationalization being that the firepower was dialed down. The presence of BDZs implies at least megaton level firepower. Although some BDZs are less impressive than others, the higher end BDZs are numerous enough that they can be considered to be possible and not some sort of fluke. Therefore, we have a turbolaser firepower in the gigatons, thus validating the ICS and other higher end claims. Quite frankly, any claims of sub kiloton firepower is ridiculous. Any claim of kiloton level firepower does not explain BDZs, even low end ones. Any claim of megaton level firepower is more valid, more does not explain higher end BDZs and quotes blatantly stating gigaton or more level firepower.[/quote]

considering the amount of text there is to wade through, that will take a while. but i'll be glad to do it if you really will address the points.

[Trinoya]

The Star Wars Technical Journal, which iirc was pre AOTC ICS, states that BDZs can be done in a few hours. Several sources confirm or imply that a single star destroyer can do it. Granted, the few hours claim could be referring to a large fleet, but still puts a BDZ from a star destroyer being within 24 hours, requiring high megaton to low gigaton firepower as a lower limit.

And a single star destroyer, with weapons in the megaton range, can produce the observable effects we have seen in the expanded universe (IE: Actual pictures of the surface of a planet that was bombarded by a BDZ) within a time frame.

NOTE: These things involved mop up operations, people walking on the ground, sorties, and even a rebel base SURVIVING the attack.

Also you did not address the point that the guns do not exist.

At this point, you've been provided ample evidence that you've failed to contradict or address and you've been given more than enough time to do so. As I said before, you got in over your head with this. Save some face, concede for the purposes of this thread and move on to actually debating things point by point when you can... if you really are that busy then this shouldn't be more than a trivial concession in your eyes, a concession based on inability to continue.

Otherwise, at this point, the only other option is to assume this is some form of trolling... and you're on thin ice in that department in my personal opinion after the photo-shopped pictures and edited fan videos used as evidence. I eagerly await your response and I really do hope you choose to bow out gracefully.

Otherwise, I propose to a mod that this thread be locked, as all it will accomplish is literally being proof of an unwillingness to provide or accept valid evidence or engage in honest debate practices.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

And a single star destroyer, with weapons in the megaton range, can produce the observable effects we have seen in the expanded universe (IE: Actual pictures of the surface of a planet that was bombarded by a BDZ) within a time frame.

Typical of you to ignore the high end showings. The higher end reducing the planets to slag showings would require high megaton to gigaton weapons in order to accomplish in a 24 hour timeframe.

NOTE: These things involved mop up operations, people walking on the ground, sorties, and even a rebel base SURVIVING the attack.

For some of them, yes. There can be different levels of BDZ.

Also you did not address the point that the guns do not exist.

How do you know? We did not get a full enough view of Acclamators, nor does it really change the fact that there can be several versions of a ship. In the ROTS ICS we have the victory class star destroyers, with >10^24 watts power generation and the ability to divert almost all of it to its main guns.

Here's a counter argument:

Show a single example, if you can, of a Trek photon torpedo doing high megaton level damage. Because there are several in which they do kiloton level damage. Explain this:





And that torpedo was supposed to be 11% more powerful than usual!

And Pegasus, they had to use up most of their photon torpedos do destroy a 5 km asteroid. And it was freaking hollow.

What about in that episode where they fired photon torpedos at "god"? Iirc it was in atmosphere, and yet some of the crew on the ground not that far away were not affected by the photon torpedos, which were quite on par with modern day conventional missiles.

There was an instance in which Data stated that their shields would last 18 minutes from 20,000,000 kms away from a pulsar. A guy at spacebattles calculated it...and his calculations seem to be correct...to be about half a kiloton. HALF A KILOTON. Really?

[Who is like God arbour]

StarWarsStarTrek, from now on I will not continue to debate with you.

It's obviously that you haven't seen most of the Star Trek episodes and haven't read the books and novels you are talking about. You are only parroting what others have said and you are ignoring all evidences that were provided.

Regardless what we are saying, you will ignore it and will never adjust your opinion.

And not providing sound arguments yourself, this debate is not able to stimulate our own intellect or to get us to adjust our own opinion.

We could continue that for years and nothing will come out of it.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

StarWarsStarTrek, from now on I will not continue to debate with you.

It's obviously that you haven't seen most of the Star Trek episodes and haven't read the books and novels you are talking about. You are only parroting what others have said and you are ignoring all evidences that were provided.

Regardless what we are saying, you will ignore it and will never adjust your opinion.

And not providing sound arguments yourself, this debate is not able to stimulate our own intellect or to get us to adjust our own opinion.

We could continue that for years and nothing will come out of it.

Concession accepted. You can't explain why a photon torpedo with 11% greater yield than usual can't vaporize an asteroid barely bigger than itself, or why photon torpedos hitting Earth have kiloton level explosion radiuses, or why half a kiloton of EM radiation can take out a Trek ship, or why photon torpedos impacting inside a damaged starship doesn't vaporize the entire ship like a high megaton level photon torpedo would, or why some photon torpedos cause sub kiloton level explosives.

[Nowhereman10]

Here's the Warsies almighty Base Delta Zero that requires a single ISD only an hour:




Oh wait... it doesn't. It takes multiple SDs as well other ships of all sizes to carry out. "But it's not offical...." cries StarWarsStarTrek. Oh yes it's official material. Very offical.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Here's the Warsies almighty Base Delta Zero that requires a single ISD only an hour:




Oh wait... it doesn't. It takes multiple SDs as well other ships of all sizes to carry out. "But it's not offical...." cries StarWarsStarTrek. Oh yes it's official material. Very offical.

Since when does the use of multiple star destroyers mean that one can't do it? I suppose that, if two people help clean a room, you'd think that one can't? Also, the image shows a completely melted and molten surface, eh? And since when is the SWG TCG official?

And that brings us back to the original claim. None of you have made a single valid example of irrefutable contradiction of the AOTC or ROTS ICS. Your alleged contradictions merely establish lower limits, but do not contradict the upper ones.

[Nowhereman10]

Oh please, the picture speaks for itself. There are at least 10 ships there firing away with everything they've got. I lost count of the turbolaser bolts visible somewhere around 100. According to you and your beloved holy bibles of the ICS, one shot from an ISD's heavy turbolaser battery would be enough to make an explosion bigger than what that combined fleet of 10 ships and more than 100 bolts are doing in the pic. Thus a very clear contradiction.

So, we've been providing clear proof since you first started this thread, but as you've just proven above, you won't accept it, and now you're trying to weedle your way out of it by claiming these are lower limit showings, when most of them are anything but.

Concession accepted, dude.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Oh please, the picture speaks for itself. There are at least 10 ships there firing away with everything they've got. I lost count of the turbolaser bolts visible somewhere around 100. According to you and your beloved holy bibles of the ICS, one shot from an ISD's heavy turbolaser battery would be enough to make an explosion bigger than what that combined fleet of 10 ships and more than 100 bolts are doing in the pic. Thus a very clear contradiction.

Not only is a TCG hardly accurate evidence, but smoke was being made in excess of the K-T extinction event, and below the smoke there appears to be completely molten lava. Let's combine that with the claim of it being able to be done in a few hours. There were, what; 8 star destroyers in the picture? Sure; some of them were bigger than usual, but their turbolaser fire is only a few times more numerous that the smaller star destroyer. Combine that with the fact that typical BDZ's would obviously not require super star destroyer, since only a few existed, a single star destroyer could do a DBZ in under 24 hours. In fact, the fact that there are often no survivors of a BDZ imply that BDZ's happen in a rather fast time. If 8 star destroyers can do it in 3 hours, then 1 can do it in 24 hours.

So, we've been providing clear proof since you first started this thread, but as you've just proven above, you won't accept it, and now you're trying to weedle your way out of it by claiming these are lower limit showings, when most of them are anything but.

Concession accepted, dude.

Such hypocrisy; your post does not give a single example yet then accuses me of weedling out.

[Nowhereman10]

And a single star destroyer, with weapons in the megaton range, can produce the observable effects we have seen in the expanded universe (IE: Actual pictures of the surface of a planet that was bombarded by a BDZ) within a time frame.

Typical of you to ignore the high end showings. The higher end reducing the planets to slag showings would require high megaton to gigaton weapons in order to accomplish in a 24 hour timeframe.

NOTE: These things involved mop up operations, people walking on the ground, sorties, and even a rebel base SURVIVING the attack.

For some of them, yes. There can be different levels of BDZ.

Also you did not address the point that the guns do not exist.

How do you know? We did not get a full enough view of Acclamators, nor does it really change the fact that there can be several versions of a ship. In the ROTS ICS we have the victory class star destroyers, with >10^24 watts power generation and the ability to divert almost all of it to its main guns.

Here's a counter argument:

Show a single example, if you can, of a Trek photon torpedo doing high megaton level damage. Because there are several in which they do kiloton level damage. Explain this:





And that torpedo was supposed to be 11% more powerful than usual!

And Pegasus, they had to use up most of their photon torpedos do destroy a 5 km asteroid. And it was freaking hollow.

What about in that episode where they fired photon torpedos at "god"? Iirc it was in atmosphere, and yet some of the crew on the ground not that far away were not affected by the photon torpedos, which were quite on par with modern day conventional missiles.

There was an instance in which Data stated that their shields would last 18 minutes from 20,000,000 kms away from a pulsar. A guy at spacebattles calculated it...and his calculations seem to be correct...to be about half a kiloton. HALF A KILOTON. Really?

Easily counter by showing asteroids being vaporized:

From ST:TMP





From TNG's "Booby Trap"


From TNG's "Cost of Living"




Also, it would do what little credibility you have left good to post the SBC calcs here, or a link to it so that it can be evaluated. Furthermore, half a kiloton would have little effect on the Enterprise-D since we know the following from "The Nth Degree":

WORF: Probe now closing at fifteen point three metres per second. Collision course.

DATA: Captain, sensors are reading no particulate emissions or subspace field distortions.

PICARD: Then how is it able to move?

DATA: Method of propulsion is unknown, sir.

RIKER: Ensign, take us away from it. One quarter impulse.

ANAYA: (the lady at helm) Aye, sir.

WORF: The probe is matching our speed and course.

DATA: Captain, an energy field is forming around the device. Intensity is three point two terawatts and increasing.

That is three-quarters of a kiloton, yet the ship was easily able to withstand that much energy from near point-blank range with the probe.

As for Star Trek V, you did know that Kirk does tell Sulu to "Listen carefully" before cutting away to Sybok and Spock, then cutting back to Kirk, Uhura and Sulu, and Kirk ordering the torpedo fired. So how do you know Kirk did not order a low-yeild torpedo? We know this much about the earlier torpedoes from ENT:

REED: Photonic torpedoes. Their range is over fifty times greater than our conventional torpedoes, and they have a variable yield. They can knock the comm. array off a shuttlepod without scratching the hull or they can put a three kilometre crater into an asteroid.

So they can set a torpedo that low in the 22nd century. So why can't they do it in the 23rd?

[Picard]

And a single star destroyer, with weapons in the megaton range, can produce the observable effects we have seen in the expanded universe (IE: Actual pictures of the surface of a planet that was bombarded by a BDZ) within a time frame.

Typical of you to ignore the high end showings. The higher end reducing the planets to slag showings would require high megaton to gigaton weapons in order to accomplish in a 24 hour timeframe.

NOTE: These things involved mop up operations, people walking on the ground, sorties, and even a rebel base SURVIVING the attack.

For some of them, yes. There can be different levels of BDZ.

Also you did not address the point that the guns do not exist.

How do you know? We did not get a full enough view of Acclamators, nor does it really change the fact that there can be several versions of a ship. In the ROTS ICS we have the victory class star destroyers, with >10^24 watts power generation and the ability to divert almost all of it to its main guns.

Here's a counter argument:

Show a single example, if you can, of a Trek photon torpedo doing high megaton level damage. Because there are several in which they do kiloton level damage. Explain this:





And that torpedo was supposed to be 11% more powerful than usual!

And Pegasus, they had to use up most of their photon torpedos do destroy a 5 km asteroid. And it was freaking hollow.

What about in that episode where they fired photon torpedos at "god"? Iirc it was in atmosphere, and yet some of the crew on the ground not that far away were not affected by the photon torpedos, which were quite on par with modern day conventional missiles.

There was an instance in which Data stated that their shields would last 18 minutes from 20,000,000 kms away from a pulsar. A guy at spacebattles calculated it...and his calculations seem to be correct...to be about half a kiloton. HALF A KILOTON. Really?

http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... edoes.html

http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... asers.html

And in that pulsar instance they were inside corona.

[User1462]

From the link above, http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... edoes.html :

So it is clear that they could destroy Pegasus only by vaporizing asteroid itself to prevent Romulans from finding the cloak. To do that, they needed to vaporize asteroid.

One point: they needed to destroy the Pegasus as well, and it's unknown how many torpedoes that would take. That was the whole point of blowing up the asteroid, and so it needs to be added to the equation.
In that site's analysis of "The Doomsday Machine," DS states that it isn't known how many megatons were produced (simply 97 megaton per engine), or whether it destroyed the Constellation; and so it would be vital to include this figure as well in calculating how much they'd need to destroy the Pegasus.

Furthermore, blowing up the Pegasus while it's inside an asteroid, would require more firepower than blowing them up separately.

Finally, we don't know what the asteroid was made out of; they couldn't beam through it, clearly, so it must have been some uber-dense or otherwise weird substance which prevented beaming-- and therefore would be tough to destroy, as well; likewise the Enteprise couldn't simply phaser itself out once trapped inside. So we're not talking ordinary silicates, or even nickel-iron.

So you could be talking torpedo-yields of gigatons or teratons, there's no way to tell.