Battle of Endor with trek ships

[Picard]

Problem is we've seen this range only once in over 200+ hours of Trek?

Other problem is 95% of the battles in Trek happen at knife-fighting range?

And most important problem is we're re-hashing old grounds which you've always ignored because you don't like the picture it paints of ST, mainly that combat ranges are pretty similar in SW and in ST...

If you want to know...
TNG
"The Wounded" - ~200 000 km combat range
"A Matter of Honor" - 40 000+ km combat range, and explains why such short ranges are used as often as they are (shortening respond/adaptation time
DS9
"The Search" - 100 000 km
TOS
"The Changeling" - 90 000 km
"Ultimate Computer" - 200 000 km

500 meters was described to be extremely close in Star Wars Clone Wars No Prisoners

And dangerously so in TNG. That is, before appearance of shaped charge torpedoes.

Plus you both forget that ship flying at full impulse will close from 225 000 kilometers to point-blank range within one second. And from Kirk onwards, basic Federation fleet doctrine seems to be to Zerg-rush enemy with all guns blazing... not that it helps situation much, but it won't help Imperials either. But there is no reason to assume that Feds won't use range when it does help.

[Praeothmin]

If you want to know...
TNG
"The Wounded" - ~200 000 km combat range
"A Matter of Honor" - 40 000+ km combat range, and explains why such short ranges are used as often as they are (shortening respond/adaptation time
DS9
"The Search" - 100 000 km
TOS
"The Changeling" - 90 000 km
"Ultimate Computer" - 200 000 km

Yes, and these ranges are, what, 5 examples out of the hundreds of ship battles we've seen in ST...
So 5 out of, say, 100, is an outlier, NOT the norm...
5 out of 100 means 95% of the battles are at spitting range...
5 out of 100 means the most battles are at short range...

And if you want to use outliers, than in TESB, we have an ION gun firing at thousands of km, and hitting a target three times at that range, which proves SW ranges are in the thousands of km and they are super accurate...
See how that can go both ways?

[Picard]

I already took ISD's range as being ~6000 kilometers absolute upper limit, exactly due to same event you are describing. And what you mean under "both ways"? I am not trying to reshape canon to fit some my ideas.

[Nowhereman10]

If you want to know...
TNG
"The Wounded" - ~200 000 km combat range
"A Matter of Honor" - 40 000+ km combat range, and explains why such short ranges are used as often as they are (shortening respond/adaptation time
DS9
"The Search" - 100 000 km
TOS
"The Changeling" - 90 000 km
"Ultimate Computer" - 200 000 km

Yes, and these ranges are, what, 5 examples out of the hundreds of ship battles we've seen in ST...
So 5 out of, say, 100, is an outlier, NOT the norm...
5 out of 100 means 95% of the battles are at spitting range...
5 out of 100 means the most battles are at short range...

And if you want to use outliers, than in TESB, we have an ION gun firing at thousands of km, and hitting a target three times at that range, which proves SW ranges are in the thousands of km and they are super accurate...
See how that can go both ways?

Let's not forget that five examples is not all that there is in Trek, just that Picard missed a number of others. To that list you can add the following:

TOS

"The Alternative Factor"- The Enterprise fires on with phasers, hits, and vapes Lazarus' 3 meter wide timeship from a distance that appears to at least be 36,000 km.

"Journey to Babel"- The Enterprise successfully hits the Orion raider at 75,000 km.

"Patterns of Force"- The Enterprise scores a hit with phasers on a Space Nazi missile at 2000 km.

"The Deadly Years" - Romulan ships plummel the Enterprise at ranges of 50,000-150,000 km.

TNG

"Skin of Evil"- The Enterprise-D hits a damaged shuttlecraft from thousands of km away with a photon torpedo to prevent it from being used by the evil Armus to escape his planetary prison.

"Legacy"- The Enterprise is able to drill a tunnel 1.6 km deep on a planet from at least hundreds, if not more than a thousand km.

VOYAGER

"Basics, Part I" - Kazon ships fire on Voyager from greater than 10,000 km with photon torpedoes, and though it is clear from dialog that Voyager could return fire from those distances, Janeway wants to conserve use of torpedoes until point-blank range.

"Non Sequitur"- A Nebula-class starship hits a runabout with phasers from 5,000 km.

"Equinox"- Voyager is at least able to target specifically a smaller ship's warp core from 30,000 km.

DEEP SPACE NINE

"The Die is Cast"- Planetary bombardment from hundreds, if not thousands of kilometers.

"Return to Grace"- A Cardassian freighter scores hits on asteroids from around 400,000 and 200,000 km with phasers and disruptor shots.

I know I'm missing other examples, but this should be enough to kill Mister Praeothimin's notion that long range combat or shooting with Trek weapons is rare. Certainly it's a lot more frequent in use than in Wars.

[sonofccn]

If you want to know...
TNG
"The Wounded" - ~200 000 km combat range
"A Matter of Honor" - 40 000+ km combat range, and explains why such short ranges are used as often as they are (shortening respond/adaptation time
DS9
"The Search" - 100 000 km
TOS
"The Changeling" - 90 000 km
"Ultimate Computer" - 200 000 km

Yes, and these ranges are, what, 5 examples out of the hundreds of ship battles we've seen in ST...
So 5 out of, say, 100, is an outlier, NOT the norm...
5 out of 100 means 95% of the battles are at spitting range...
5 out of 100 means the most battles are at short range...

And if you want to use outliers, than in TESB, we have an ION gun firing at thousands of km, and hitting a target three times at that range, which proves SW ranges are in the thousands of km and they are super accurate...
See how that can go both ways?

Firing at short range doesn't contridict firing at long range however as you seem to be implying. We know they can shoot far away and we know they've done it. You can't just throw that out because they tend towards closer affairs other times.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

The examples of BVR Trek space combat all seem to be during one on one ship combat, not a full on space battle. Therefore, Trek ships seem to have trouble coordinating attacks in a large scale battle for BVR. Therefore, in the context of this thread and most relevant space battles, the Trek ships will effectively have <10 km attacking ranges.

[sonofccn]

@Picard: Where are you getting the 200,000 figure for the Ultimate Computer? The only one I could find simply states they are that far off and closing with no indication of them opening fire at that range.

[Picard]

The examples of BVR Trek space combat all seem to be during one on one ship combat, not a full on space battle. Therefore, Trek ships seem to have trouble coordinating attacks in a large scale battle for BVR. Therefore, in the context of this thread and most relevant space battles, the Trek ships will effectively have <10 km attacking ranges.

Full scale battles were only seen during DS9, where we had visual ranges regularly used. And I don't see any reason why it would be impossible for ships to use weapons on long range while in fleet formation.

[Praeothmin]

Firing at short range doesn't contridict firing at long range however as you seem to be implying. We know they can shoot far away and we know they've done it. You can't just throw that out because they tend towards closer affairs other times.

I'm not, but since most of the battles take place at short range, then in vs scenarios, we must also make most of them short range battles, and not assume ST always has the upper range, since it doesn't in its own universe...

And nowhereman10, these examples you bring still do not tip the mojority of battle ranges in ST to long range, they are still few examples when compared to all the battles we've seen...
I used the number 100, but I remember seeing many, many battles, ship to ship, and in fleets, and they were, except for the examples you brought, in spitting range...

Full scale battles were only seen during DS9, where we had visual ranges regularly used. And I don't see any reason why it would be impossible for ships to use weapons on long range while in fleet formation.

Then why didn't they?
Even in TOS, we have ship to ship battles that were at spitting range, in TNG, we have ship to ship battles at spitting range, in DS9 they are almost all at spitting range, as well as in Voyager.
So why the heck should we assume that Trek ships will fire at 200 000km when they don't always do in the movies and shows?

[Who is like God arbour]

Yes, and these ranges are, what, 5 examples out of the hundreds of ship battles we've seen in ST...
So 5 out of, say, 100, is an outlier, NOT the norm...
5 out of 100 means 95% of the battles are at spitting range...
5 out of 100 means the most battles are at short range...

And nowhereman10, these examples you bring still do not tip the mojority of battle ranges in ST to long range, they are still few examples when compared to all the battles we've seen...
I used the number 100, but I remember seeing many, many battles, ship to ship, and in fleets, and they were, except for the examples you brought, in spitting range...

I'm not sure that this assessment is correct. Maybe you can list all battles which happened at short range so that we can compare their number with all battles which happened at long range.

I consider it possible that you may be surprised because there are not so many battles in Star Trek. I doubt that we would get a ratio of 5:100 or something similar that would allow us to tread the battles with long ranges as an outlier.

Furthermore, to conclude why in certain situations, theses battles happened at a short range, each one should be analysed.

Firing at short range doesn't contridict firing at long range however as you seem to be implying. We know they can shoot far away and we know they've done it. You can't just throw that out because they tend towards closer affairs other times.

I'm not, but since most of the battles take place at short range, then in vs scenarios, we must also make most of them short range battles, and not assume ST always has the upper range, since it doesn't in its own universe...

No.
We know that they can fight at long ranges. We know that sometimes they do not fight at long ranges and close to spitting range. To assume that they will do that always or in a VS scenarion is only plausibel if we know why they close to spitting range and know that the reason for this is present in the VS scenario too. We can not simply assume that they wouldn't use an advantage they have.

That means that it is not enough to say that because they closed to spitting range in many battles against enemies of their own galaxy although they are capable of long range battles, they will close to spitting range in each VS scenario too. A fortiori if in the VS scenario the enemy does not have the weapons range all or most of the enemies of their own galaxy have.

Even in TOS, we have ship to ship battles that were at spitting range, in TNG, we have ship to ship battles at spitting range, in DS9 they are almost all at spitting range, as well as in Voyager.
So why the heck should we assume that Trek ships will fire at 200 000km when they don't always do in the movies and shows?

There are many different explanations imaginable. And maybe we will never know.

One possible explanation is that in battles against enemies of their own galaxy, the weapons ranges are more or less the same. Furthermore the manoeuvrability of such ships is more or less similar. Then long ranges means also more time to evade incoming fire. Under such circumstances, a long range battle does not provide any advantages.

But against a Star Wars ship, these advantages are there. The ships are slow like slugs. They could never evade incoming fire - even with a warning time of a few seconds. And their short weapons range prevents that they could fire back.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

The examples of BVR Trek space combat all seem to be during one on one ship combat, not a full on space battle. Therefore, Trek ships seem to have trouble coordinating attacks in a large scale battle for BVR. Therefore, in the context of this thread and most relevant space battles, the Trek ships will effectively have <10 km attacking ranges.

Full scale battles were only seen during DS9, where we had visual ranges regularly used. And I don't see any reason why it would be impossible for ships to use weapons on long range while in fleet formation.

The fact is that Trek ships cannot fight at BVR in large scale space battles. Why? Because they can't coordinate the attacks, or they aren't accurate enough, etc. The point is that they can't, and this is an observed fact based on lots of footage.

[Who is like God arbour]

The fact is that Trek ships cannot fight at BVR in large scale space battles. Why? Because they can't coordinate the attacks, or they aren't accurate enough, etc. The point is that they can't, and this is an observed fact based on lots of footage.

WRONG

An observed fact based on lots of footage is that they have a few battles at short ranges. Full stop.

An explanation why they battled at short ranges although they have the capability for long range battles was never given on screen. (of-screen exolanation: it looks cooler)

That Trek ships cannot fight at BVR in large scale space battles because they can't coordinate the attacks, or they aren't accurate enough is not given as an explanation on-screen.

It is a possible explanation.

But if it were true, it would be only half of the explanation. Because then the question would be, why they can't do it. After all, it is a canon fact that they have longer weapon ranges and are accurate enough to hit a 1 meter target at a distance of 90.000 km.

Possible explanation: They can't do it because at fleet engagements there is much jamming which prevents communication over greater distances which forces fleets to shorten the distance to be able to communicate and coordinate their manoeuvres.

If that is a possible explanation, the next step would be to ask, if that would happen against a Star Wars fleet too? Is a Star Wars fleet able to jam the sub-space based communication of Starfleet ships? If not, the Starfleet ships wouldn't be forced to shorten their ditances and could take advantage of their long rang weapons.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

The fact is that Trek ships cannot fight at BVR in large scale space battles. Why? Because they can't coordinate the attacks, or they aren't accurate enough, etc. The point is that they can't, and this is an observed fact based on lots of footage.

WRONG

An observed fact based on lots of footage is that they have a few battles at short ranges. Full stop.

An explanation why they battled at short ranges although they have the capability for long range battles was never given on screen. (of-screen exolanation: it looks cooler)

That Trek ships cannot fight at BVR in large scale space battles because they can't coordinate the attacks, or they aren't accurate enough is not given as an explanation on-screen.

It is a possible explanation.

But if it were true, it would be only half of the explanation. Because then the question would be, why they can't do it. After all, it is a canon fact that they have longer weapon ranges and are accurate enough to hit a 1 meter target at a distance of 90.000 km.

Possible explanation: They can't do it because at fleet engagements there is much jamming which prevents communication over greater distances which forces fleets to shorten the distance to be able to communicate and coordinate their manoeuvres.

If that is a possible explanation, the next step would be to ask, if that would happen against a Star Wars fleet too? Is a Star Wars fleet able to jam the sub-space based communication of Starfleet ships? If not, the Starfleet ships wouldn't be forced to shorten their ditances and could take advantage of their long rang weapons.

There is no evidence of heavy jamming of Star Trek ships in large scale battles, so your explanation is complete speculation. To be honest, the idea that its due to poor coordination is not a good explanation either. Therefore, we don't know why they don't have large scale BVR battles, but we do know that their large scale battles are within a few hundred meters to a few kms. Therefore, they'd have to move within the same distance to engage Star Wars ships too.

[Praeothmin]

An observed fact based on lots of footage is that they have a few battles at short ranges. Full stop.

Really?
So you've watched all of Trek and counted all the short range engagements and they were fewer in number than the long range?
Really?
Because I don't remember the same thing you do, it seems to me the majority of ship to ship battle, either in group or alone, happens at spitting range...
Strange, hun?

[Picard]

We already know why Star Trek battles are mostly fought at short range (explained by Riker, in episode where he is first officer on klingon BoP preparing to atack Enterprise). And as for large scale battles, there is simple fact that Federation fleets were shown to be under time/objective stress in both battle of DS9 and first battle of Chin'toka. I also noticed you all gleefully ignore canon fact that Star Trek ships can close from 300 000 kilometers to point-blank range in exactly 1.25 seconds on full impulse.

Strange, hun?

Above.