A challenge to Trekkies

[Trinoya]

I would really like you to address my post about showing me a one gigaton weapon impact in star wars G or T cannon. Surely this often spoken claim should be readily available in one of the movies, the cartoon, the cgi cartoon, the cgi movie, the radio dramas, or the novels. I mean were literally talking dozens of hours worth of material in the highest levels of the star wars universe. Surely it's not just an unsupported claim from a single book.

Right?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I would really like you to address my post about showing me a one gigaton weapon impact in star wars G or T cannon. Surely this often spoken claim should be readily available in one of the movies, the cartoon, the cgi cartoon, the cgi movie, the radio dramas, or the novels. I mean were literally talking dozens of hours worth of material in the highest levels of the star wars universe. Surely it's not just an unsupported claim from a single book.

Right?

1. Canon policy states that the movies do not have to support lower canon, but merely not contradict it.
2. It's not just from one book, it's from multiple reliable sources.
3. You know that "vaporize a small town" claim?

A brief glimpse of Taris from orbit in KOTOR shows a city literally the size of a continent. Let's say Europe sized. Based on darkstar's wanking, he gives a small town the square area of 7.3 square miles. The size of a large city, say New York City, is 305 square miles. That's a large city: small town ratio of about 41.78:1.

The square area of Europe is about 3.93 million miles squared. If a standard large city in Star Wars is about the size of Europe, then a small town in Star Wars would be about the size of 94,064 miles squared. Assuming a roughly circular shape for ease of calculation, that's a diameter of about 306.7 miles, and a radius of 153.35 miles.

Using darkstar's own equation, that's:

153.35 = Y^0.33 x 0.28

Y = about 2 * 10^8 kilotons, or about 200 gigatons...OMG IT TURNS OUT TO BE ALMOST EXACTLY WHAT THE ICS CALCULATED!!!! Surely Saxton has not made his numbers out of thin air. Well, the ROTS novel was made after the ICS right?

Note that these calculations can actually be considered to be low end, because it's taking the size of a city from the KOTOR era, aka several thousand years back, and from Taris, which while industrialized would not be nearly as populated as PT era Coruscant. Oh, and Star Wars small towns would be far more durable than modern towns/cities would.

[Mike DiCenso]

mindblowing that you guys would bother to go on after the first page of this thread. i managed to read three pages before i had to stop in disgust. this jackass just ignores every valid point and keeps repeating the same drivel over and over. god almighty. you're a bunch of saints. if it were my forum i would have banned him outright after the first few DOZEN times you fulfilled his original requirements for conceding the point. and i love how eventually he just gets more and more 'busy' and can't be bothered to even try anymore.

That's what makes this place different, Mojo. This is not SDN, nor SBC where you can ban someone on the pretext of them simply disagreeing with the majority opinion, or the opinion of the admin/mod staff. SWST has not directly insulted anyone, though I do note a couple occasion recently where's he/she's borderline close to doing so. If that means we get piles of "drivel", then so be it. At least it keeps everyone here on their toes and their debate skills sharpened.
-Mike

[Who is like God arbour]

Canon policy states that the movies do not have to support lower canon, but merely not contradict it.

Is that so?

Who makes the canon policy for Lucas' Star Wars and has that person really stated that » movies do not have to support lower canon « and that all lower canon is valid as long as it is not outright contradicted by the movies - even if it contains things with which the movies, if there where such things in them, wouldn't make sense any more?

Is that really the canon policy for Lucas' Star Wars?

And I mean Lucas' Star Wars and not each and everything on which a Star Wars logo is printed (maybe even with the approval of Lucas or a representative of him).

A brief glimpse of Taris from orbit in KOTOR shows a city literally the size of a continent. Let's say Europe sized. Based on darkstar's wanking, he gives a small town the square area of 7.3 square miles. The size of a large city, say New York City, is 305 square miles. That's a large city: small town ratio of about 41.78:1.

The square area of Europe is about 3.93 million miles squared. If a standard large city in Star Wars is about the size of Europe, then a small town in Star Wars would be about the size of 94,064 miles squared. Assuming a roughly circular shape for ease of calculation, that's a diameter of about 306.7 miles, and a radius of 153.35 miles.

And now you can surly provide evidence for your assumption that Tarsus is » a standard large city in Star Wars «. Because, if Tarsus were already one of the bigger cities in Star Wars, maybe already one of the biggest cities beside the few ecumenopolises like Coruscant, your whole theory would collapse in itself.

Besides that, you are ignoring the fact, that, according to the novelization » A New Hope «, Anchorhead and Mos Eisley and, according to the novelization » The Phantom Menace «, Mos Espa are towns. All three towns are Star Wars towns and are not hundreds of miles large.

Note that these calculations can actually be considered to be low end, because it's taking the size of a city from the KOTOR era, aka several thousand years back, and from Taris, which while industrialized would not be nearly as populated as PT era Coruscant. Oh, and Star Wars small towns would be far more durable than modern towns/cities would.

Have you noticed that not all things in Star Wars are as great as on Coruscant?
Fact is that more or less each planet seen in the movies had only small towns and a simple architecture. Yes, there were a few exceptions. But what defines what is normal in the Star Wars galaxy? The few exceptions?

[Mike DiCenso]

Why are you taking SWST's word for it? Here's the trailer for KOTR and it shows from 1:11 onward the bombardment. There's no uber-gigatons of anything, just some low-KT yeild explosions at the tops of the skyscrapers.
-Mike

[Trinoya]

1. Canon policy states that the movies do not have to support lower canon, but merely not contradict it.
2. It's not just from one book, it's from multiple reliable sources.
3. You know that "vaporize a small town" claim?

A brief glimpse of Taris from orbit in KOTOR shows a city literally the size of a continent.

1. The movies clearly contradict the book in several locations, including, but not limited too: The Asteroid Impact Scene, the very need for a death star, the battle of Hoth, the battle of Kashykk, the battle of courscant, that battle of geonosis (one and two), the insane mid-evil like defenses of the planet of geonosis. The orbital attack on Geonosis. The inability to destroy the droid manufaturing plant. The attack on Kamino. The battle with the cloak ship.

JUST to name a few. These are situations where a SINGLE gigaton attack would have saved thousands of lives, or ended battles imediately, or cost the opposing side desperate morale, or in one case ACTUALLY WON THE WAR.

A lot of people like to hand wave a lot of them away saying, "oh palpatine ordered them to not be at full power." In which case you simply prove everyone is so incrediable stupid as to not question such an order.

2. I've not seen any of these other sources, infact the best thing I've ever seen to support such claims were weapons that were built litterally decades after the movies in the EU, and therefore aren't applicable. I've seen one book that sights a 200 gigaton weapon that doesn't actually even exist on the movie model, or the cartoon model (you know, which directly contradicts the movies).

3. I'm well aware of the claim, and it doesn't take 200 gigatons or even 1 gigaton to vaporize a small town.

In regards to Taris: Video games are not applicable in the vs debates.. unless you really want me to make the claim of spitting distance ranges, that the empire after the battle of Yavin had one star destroyer, that a tie fighter can be destroyed by water, and that those sensor domes really are shield generators.

... Trust me, the LAST thing you EVER want to do with star wars is bring videogames into it.



I digress:

Please show me a picture of these 200 gigaton weapons on the acclamator in the movies. You know, the ones by the bridge tower... you know.. the ones that aren't actually there in the movies on ANY model we ever see?

That, beyond anything, is a clear contradiction... flat out making those weapons not even exist.. and any firepower figures for them also suddenly not exist.


Oh, and last but not least: You posted nothing from a G or T cannon source. I can only presume that it does not exist... don't feel bad, no on has been able to do so... ever.

[Khas]

In regards to Taris: Video games are not applicable in the vs debates.. unless you really want me to make the claim of spitting distance ranges, that the empire after the battle of Yavin had one star destroyer, that a tie fighter can be destroyed by water, and that those sensor domes really are shield generators.

... Trust me, the LAST thing you EVER want to do with star wars is bring videogames into it.

Well, that was a cutscene, so it might be more reasonable than gameplay itself. But all it does is hurt SWST's case, since as Mike and I have both shown, the firepower is... less than impressive.

And I agree with you about not bringing gameplay into versus debates. I remember from playing Battlefront II as the Rebels hearing friendly troops taunting Stormtroopers by calling them "plastic boy". If we were to take that literally....

[Trinoya]

That's just... terrifying...

The worst part is now all I want to do is have that soundbite.... <_<

[User1462]

And I agree with you about not bringing gameplay into versus debates. I remember from playing Battlefront II as the Rebels hearing friendly troops taunting Stormtroopers by calling them "plastic boy". If we were to take that literally....

Because obviously, they didn't intend it literally.

The point is the same as all the other Warsie-arguments: i.e. ignoring authorial intent in favor of their own-- and that's my entire point, i.e. they're putting their words in Lucas's mouth and calling it the gospel (or CANON, in this case).

And the same goes for all their calculations which distort on-screen evidence, or which presume the EU as canon despite Lucas's express words.

The "logical gymnastics" by which they arrive at this, is likewise illustrative of the fact, that they don't want to be confused with facts.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

1. You do realize that New York City is not a standard large city either, right?
2. You do realize that quote was in the context of Coruscant, right?
3. Although not very high canon, cutscenes are canon.
4. The fact is that the calculations turn out to be extremely close to to 200 gigatons, so close that it is a big stretch to call it coincidence. Therefore, based on my calculations, which are far more accurate than darkstar's attempt to use Mos Eisley as a standard small town, the 200 gigaton claim is supported by g canon. Note that I honestly did not know what my calculations would turn out to be; it happened to be 200 gigatons, aka whatthe ICS claims.

[Who is like God arbour]

Nothing you just said is relevant.

Relevant is that according to the novelization » A New Hope «, Anchorhead and Mos Eisley and, according to the novelization » The Phantom Menace «, Mos Espa are towns.

The novelization » A New Hope «, officially written by Gerorge Lucas, is G-canon.

Insofar there are high-canon examples for what towns in the Star Wars galaxy are.

That these towns are small, is already an accommodation from Darkstar.

You on the other hand have nothing to show how big a town in Star Wars is.

If you want to show, that small towns in Star Wars are bigger, than you have to provide concrete evidences and not only your baseless assumptions.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

1. You do realize that New York City is not a standard large city either, right?

So?, they are diascussing a small town not a city.

2. You do realize that quote was in the context of Coruscant, right?

No it was not and that was never even implied or supported with othetr coments or comparisons, it was a general comment and considerably more likely refering to a contemporary small town. However Anchorhead, Mos Eisley and Mos Espa are all towns as per G canon.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Nothing you just said is relevant.

If you were to look at context, then yes it is.

Relevant is that according to the novelization » A New Hope «, Anchorhead and Mos Eisley and, according to the novelization » The Phantom Menace «, Mos Espa are towns.

The novelization » A New Hope «, officially written by Gerorge Lucas, is G-canon.

Insofar there are high-canon examples for what towns in the Star Wars galaxy are.

That these towns are small, is already an accommodation from Darkstar.

You on the other hand have nothing to show how big a town in Star Wars is.

If you want to show, that small towns in Star Wars are bigger, than you have to provide concrete evidences and not only your baseless assumptions.

Is this really the best argument that you can come up with? Do you seriously think that there are only one size of "small" towns? Do you think that, because Mos Eisley is a town and is small, that all small towns are like that? Have you ever thought of the fact that Mos Eisley was on Tatooine, a backwater planet, while the quote in question is about Coruscant, the figurative center of galactic civilization?

Are you really using this:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... x=65&ty=78

As a comparison for this?:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... 29,r:1,s:0

[StarWarsStarTrek]

So?, they are diascussing a small town not a city.

My point was in response to a claim that my calculations were assuming that Tarsus was indeed a standard sized city. However, I took the possibility into account in my calculations by using the real analogy to be New York City, which is far larger than your "standard" large sized city.

No it was not and that was never even implied or supported with othetr coments or comparisons, it was a general comment and considerably more likely refering to a contemporary small town. However Anchorhead, Mos Eisley and Mos Espa are all towns as per G canon.

Did you even read the quote? The quote was near the beginning of ROTS during the Battle of Coruscant. Obviously it's in the context of Coruscant.

[Who is like God arbour]

Nothing you just said is relevant.

If you were to look at context, then yes it is.

Don't make only a claim - explain it. How is it relevant?

Relevant is that according to the novelization » A New Hope «, Anchorhead and Mos Eisley and, according to the novelization » The Phantom Menace «, Mos Espa are towns.

The novelization » A New Hope «, officially written by Gerorge Lucas, is G-canon.

Insofar there are high-canon examples for what towns in the Star Wars galaxy are.

That these towns are small, is already an accommodation from Darkstar.

You on the other hand have nothing to show how big a town in Star Wars is.

If you want to show, that small towns in Star Wars are bigger, than you have to provide concrete evidences and not only your baseless assumptions.

Is this really the best argument that you can come up with? Do you seriously think that there are only one size of "small" towns? Do you think that, because Mos Eisley is a town and is small, that all small towns are like that? Have you ever thought of the fact that Mos Eisley was on Tatooine, a backwater planet, while the quote in question is about Coruscant, the figurative center of galactic civilization?

That's what I said earlier:

• • • • I think the question of the town is a non sequitur for both sides.
        
        Neither the one nor the other side can show, how large an average town in the Star Wars galaxy is.
        
        Correct is, that there are large cities.
        
        But ecumenopolises are the exception. Otherwise Ric Olie wouldn't have described the fact, that the entire planet (Coruscant) is one big city as if it were something special. It would be StarWarsStarTreks responsibility to prove that this is not the case because he would be the one to claim that such ecumenopolises are normal although only a few are mentioned in Star Wars. And it is still a fact that a few ecumenopolises are statistically irrelevant in a galaxy with millions of inhabited planets.
        
        Furthermore an ecumenopolises ≠ the average city and the average city ≠ the average town and the average town ≠ a small town.
        
        On the other side, as we don't know, how big the average town is in the Star Wars galaxy, we do not know, what is considered small. A few samples are statistically irrelevant in a galaxy with millions of inhabited planets. But they are showing that a small town does not have to be bigger than what we on Earth would consider a small town. Otherwise such towns wouldn't be called towns but villages.
        
        Insofar one shouldn't use the quote, that a turbo laser can destroy a small town, to calculate its strength. The quote is too vague and it's going nowhere.

We have not enough examples to determine, how big a small town is in the Star Wars galaxy. All we have are a few examples. That's not enough. It's quite possible, that in the Star Wars galaxy, small towns are usually bigger than Mos Eisley, Mos Espa or Anchorhead. But it is also possible that they are smaller.

The thing is, that I am saying that we do not know, how big a small town is.

You on the other hand are arguing, that a small town has to have a diameter of a few hundred miles.

But you are not providing any evidence for that assumption and are ignoring the fact, that Mos Eisley, Mos Espa and Anchorhead are towns in the Star Wars galaxy but do not have a diameter of a few hundred miles.

Insofar, we do not know, what was meant in the RotS novelization when a small town was mentioned. And this does mean, that you can not claim, that a fire power that is enough to vaporize a small town, has to be enough to vaporize a town with a diameter of a few hundred miles.

It is a non sequitur.

And this applies a fortiori for your argument, that this quote was used in the context of Coruscant. There are no small towns on Coruscant because Coruscant is an ecumenopolis. To say that the small town from said quote has to be a big small town because it was said during the battle above Coruscant is not plausible. It would be only plausible if there were small towns on Coruscant.

Are you really using this:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... x=65&ty=78

As a comparison for this?:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... 29,r:1,s:0

No, I didn't use both images.
But it wouldn't be wrong if I had used them.
Because the one image shows buildings from what was canonical referred to as town while the other image does not even show a town. It shows buildings of an ecumenopolis. On this planet, the term town or small town is as meaningless as village. They do not exist on this planet.