Battle of Endor with trek ships

[Picard]

Well, problem is with superlaser - with such fleet and crazy Ben at helm, Feds would obliterate Imperial fleet in no time, so neither them nor Rebels would be able to use Imperial ships for cover. Althought, DET of superlaser in RotJ seemed to be in low gigatons at most.

Shoot the superlaser it's self. If it's damaged it can't be used.

Oh, I missed this. Is there any hope of anyone calculating how strong shield around Death Star II was? (Unless phase cloak can bypass it).

[User1462]

The Rebels get some help backing up akbars lead ship and Landos raiders are 2 Galaxy Classes (DW refit) 6 Ambassador Classes 3 USS Excelsiors and 5 Defiant's

the trek fleets lead by Benjamin maxwell who's told the DSII is filled with Cardassians and they're planning on using the super weapon against the Feds-so he's in full 'no mercy make the enemy no longer alive' mode

hows this go?

Cardassians? He'd figure that the DSII must be KIM Cardassian's gi-normous BUTT :D

j/k

No, they just go to full warp, and it becomes a Speedy Gonzales cartoon as they fly circles around the Imperial ships and blast them with phasers.
The DSII is useless against ships moving at warp, and likewise its shields are useless against phasers and photon torpedoes.
No contest, it's a mismatch.

[Praeothmin]

Yeah, sure, they just go at Warp flying in a very tight circle around the DS, like we saw them do in... in...
Where have we ever seen this type of Warp maneuvering from ST ships again?

[User1462]

Yeah, sure, they just go at Warp flying in a very tight circle around the DS, like we saw them do in... in...
Where have we ever seen this type of Warp maneuvering from ST ships again?

ST-v-SW.net has a section on warp-strafing.
They also don't need to go in a circle, they can just fly past it and fire once in range. SW weapons can't hit a ship moving at warp; their turbolasers can't even hit the X-wings in ANH.

[Picard]

Yeah, sure, they just go at Warp flying in a very tight circle around the DS, like we saw them do in... in...
Where have we ever seen this type of Warp maneuvering from ST ships again?

No need for warp, Imperials won't be able to hit ships flying at full impulse.

[Praeothmin]

Yeah, sure, they just go at Warp flying in a very tight circle around the DS, like we saw them do in... in...
Where have we ever seen this type of Warp maneuvering from ST ships again?

No need for warp, Imperials won't be able to hit ships flying at full impulse.

What's your evidence, Picard?

[User1462]

Yeah, sure, they just go at Warp flying in a very tight circle around the DS, like we saw them do in... in...
Where have we ever seen this type of Warp maneuvering from ST ships again?

No need for warp, Imperials won't be able to hit ships flying at full impulse.

What's your evidence, Picard?

The Battle of Yavin? Their fastest turbolasers couldn't hit X-wing fighters.
And then there's the fact that lasers can't even cut through a starship's navigational deflectors...
Ok, hold it right there-- step away from that EU comic-book! :D

[Picard]

Yeah, sure, they just go at Warp flying in a very tight circle around the DS, like we saw them do in... in...
Where have we ever seen this type of Warp maneuvering from ST ships again?

No need for warp, Imperials won't be able to hit ships flying at full impulse.

What's your evidence, Picard?

Full impulse is 0.8c.

Effective range of heavy turbolasers is 6 000 km at most. Federation starship will need only 0.05 seconds to zoom from one side of ISD's weapons range to another at full impulse. Then again, full impulse is rarely to never used in sublight combat (at least during TNG+ era) but that was not point.

[Trinoya]

And then there's the fact that lasers can't even cut through a starship's navigational deflectors...

It's very obvious that a turbo laser is not a laser. For all we know the 'laser' part of turbo laser could reference an ignition source... but it's obvious that they aren't actually lasers.

[User1462]

Effective range of heavy turbolasers is 6 000 km at most. Federation starship will need only 0.05 seconds to zoom from one side of ISD's weapons range to another at full impulse. Then again, full impulse is rarely to never used in sublight combat (at least during TNG+ era) but that was not point.

That's because it proved no advantage against similarly-equipped ships; however before then, it was used routinely to provide a speed-advantage ("Journey to Babel, The Ultimate Computer" etc).
Against SW ships, which can neither travel nor fire FTL in combat, then of course warp-maneuvering would create a definite advantage (i.e. no-lose situation), and so they would of course use it.

And then there's the fact that lasers can't even cut through a starship's navigational deflectors...

It's very obvious that a turbo laser is not a laser. For all we know the 'laser' part of turbo laser could reference an ignition source... but it's obvious that they aren't actually lasers.

A ST ship's navigational deflector clears particles from the ship's path, even while the ship is moving at thousands of times lightspeed; so they could easily handle whatver the TL's are firing at them at sublight-speed, particularly since these couldn't even hit the ion-driven X-wings in the Battle of Yavin.
So they obviously couldn't hit warp-driven ships.

[Trinoya]

A ST ship's navigational deflector clears particles from the ship's path, even while the ship is moving at thousands of times lightspeed; so they could easily handle whatver the TL's are firing at them at sublight-speed, particularly since these couldn't even hit the ion-driven X-wings in the Battle of Yavin.
So they obviously couldn't hit warp-driven ships.

Irrelevant to my point. Turbo Lasers are not lasers. You failed to address my actual argument and frankly it's clear you do not understand how the navigational deflector works anyway. Yes it moves many things out of the way, although it is clear it can not do it for objects moving very slowly when the ship is NOT at warp. We have seen ships impact other slow moving craft and objects without being hindered by the navigational deflector.

[User1462]

A ST ship's navigational deflector clears particles from the ship's path, even while the ship is moving at thousands of times lightspeed; so they could easily handle whatver the TL's are firing at them at sublight-speed, particularly since these couldn't even hit the ion-driven X-wings in the Battle of Yavin.
So they obviously couldn't hit warp-driven ships.

Irrelevant to my point. Turbo Lasers are not lasers. You failed to address my actual argument

Because there was nothing to address. You're claiming that TL-beams are some mysical magincal phlebotimum which can't be stopped by deflectors, but you fail to PROVE it.

and frankly it's clear you do not understand how the navigational deflector works anyway.

Um-- it DEFLECTS things? DERRRR.

Yes it moves many things out of the way, although it is clear it can not do it for objects moving very slowly when the ship is NOT at warp. We have seen ships impact other slow moving craft and objects without being hindered by the navigational deflector

Yeah let's see you NAME them, or else it's nothing but vague hearsay.

As for the deflector not working at sublight-speeds, here's a quote from Best of Both Worlds, Pt. I:

LAFORGE: If we can generate a concentrated burst of power at that same frequency distribution, I mean a lot more than anything our phasers or photon torpedoes could ever provide.
RIKER: How do we do that?
WESLEY: The main deflector dish.
LAFORGE: It's the only component of the Enterprise designed to channel that much power at controlled frequencies.

So it's clear that the deflector can not only function at sublight-speeds, but can put out more power than even the phasers or photon torpedoes.
MUCH more.
Likewise in "This Side of Paradise," we saw the Enterprise move a giant asteroid using a deflector-beam; however while they did move it, it simply wasn't enough.

[Lucky]

A ST ship's navigational deflector clears particles from the ship's path, even while the ship is moving at thousands of times lightspeed; so they could easily handle whatver the TL's are firing at them at sublight-speed, particularly since these couldn't even hit the ion-driven X-wings in the Battle of Yavin.
So they obviously couldn't hit warp-driven ships.

Irrelevant to my point. Turbo Lasers are not lasers. You failed to address my actual argument and frankly it's clear you do not understand how the navigational deflector works anyway. Yes it moves many things out of the way, although it is clear it can not do it for objects moving very slowly when the ship is NOT at warp. We have seen ships impact other slow moving craft and objects without being hindered by the navigational deflector.

Worf: "Captain, they are now locking lasers on us."
Riker: "Lasers?!?"
Worf: "Yes, sir."
Picard: "Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that?"
Riker: "Regulations do call for yellow alert."
Picard: "Hmm, a very old regulation. Well, make it so Number One. And, reduce speed . . . drop main shields, as well."
Riker: "May I ask why, sir?"
Picard: "In case we decide to surrender to them, Number One."
Riker: (laugh)
Worf: (growl)

And, later:

Picard: "They could fire 'till their lasers ran dry; they wouldn't hurt the Enterprise."

The E-D was just sitting there. Keep in mind that Star Trek has a lot of technobaable stuff just floating around that looks like mundane space stuff, and every warp capable ship has a navi-deflector that likely counters another ships.

I seem to recall someone calculating the shield strength of shuttle craft that zip around the Sol system, and they came up with something like shields that could take gigatons I think. I think it was pooka or lord squishy at Spacebattles.com.

[User1462]

Keep in mind that Star Trek has a lot of technobaable stuff just floating around that looks like mundane space stuff, and every warp capable ship has a navi-deflector that likely counters another ships.

This was why I asked for a list of "collisions," i.e. because they may have been cases in which the two deflectors simply cancelled each other out.

[Trinoya]

Oh god.. just.. whoa.. Okay, well let me first say that I'd really like you to address my only point (IE: That turbolasers aren't lasers). Since you seem eager for debate and a lesson here, I'll be happy to oblige however.

Because there was nothing to address. You're claiming that TL-beams are some mysical magincal phlebotimum which can't be stopped by deflectors, but you fail to PROVE it.

No, I claimed they weren't lasers. Which they aren't. You then asserted that they could be stopped by the navigational deflector because it stops things from hitting the ship. Which is a no limits fallacy and you notablly only supported with with the presumption that because it deflects thing really well at warp that it could do so effortlessly at sublight speeds.

Um-- it DEFLECTS things? DERRRR.

Ah, now I think I know what type of person I am dealing with. The Navigational deflector does in fact deflect things as you so eloquently put it, but you clearly do not understand its operation at all. It's actually a multipurpose piece of equipment that does a variety of tasks and generates a variety of particles. It's pretty obvious that its 'deflection' is more effective when traveling at warp simply by virtue of ships not getting toasted by bits of space dust when at FTL and yet still somehow not being able to push things effortlessly out of the way when dealing with STL travel.

Yeah let's see you NAME them, or else it's nothing but vague hearsay.

Hull impacts against the NX-01 with mines, which should have effortlessly been pushed out of the way by the deflector.

Nor may we forget several ramming incidents in the course of Deep Space Nine of ship on ship ramming. (The assertion that deflector dishes cancel each other out, as far as I'm aware, has not basis in cannon). These ships were clearly traveling at STL speeds.

An escape pod being able to ram the Enterprise D shields (which it shouldn't have been able to get anywhere near, and I'm reasonably sure it was using chemical rockets).

An errant untargeted, aimed, or even particularly fast moving torpedo just happens to hit a defiant class starship in a voyager episode.

Several space faring creatures latch onto ships through TNG and Voyager, all of which should have been effortlessly pushed away.

Also, while not an impact perse: An obvious failing of the deflector dish is witnessed in TOS: The Paradise Syndrome, in which it fails to move an asteroid which wasn't all that big, and which should have been effortlessly pushed out of the way with the no limits fallacy you're trying to apply to it.

So it's clear that the deflector can not only function at sublight-speeds, but can put out more power than even the phasers or photon torpedoes.
MUCH more.
Likewise in "This Side of Paradise," we saw the Enterprise move a giant asteroid using a deflector-beam; however while they did move it, it simply wasn't enough.

First: It's clear that it is a tool that has many options.
Second: I never claimed it didn't work at sublight speeds, I claimed its deflection properties are clearly lessened and I contend that it has something to do with the warpfield (which, by the way, is what has allowed them to push moons etc before).
Third: You're thinking of the wrong episode.


To Lucky:

It's a no limits fallacy. Pure and simple. The Enterprise D can't tank infinite laser attacks. It's more a statement of the failings of the weapon systems than of the enterprise being nigh immortal to them. Practically impervious yes, invincible no.

That said: It's all moot because my original and current assertion is still that Turbo Lasers aren't lasers, and all any of this is doing is distracting from that. Simply put, if they are not lasers than they are not subject to the navigational deflectors capability to tank lasers to an absurd amount. They do not act like lasers, do not look like lasers, do not impact targets like lasers, create 'flak bursts,' and do not at any point in anyway act like a laser based weapon.

In fact the only 'laser like' weapons we see in the movies are on the flying transports of the republic.

Secondarily: Someone has to first present evidence that a deflector dish can in fact deflect a weapon system like a turbo laser.



Back on topic and not directed to lucky:

I don't mean to rain on anyones parade here, but this is trivial at best, and you'll be laughed off of most forums if you start claiming the absurd like navigational deflectors magically stopping lasers without limit. I believe the exact words would be, "We found someone worse than Darkstar," On his site he even says that logically it can't take infinite lasers. Oh and.. before I forget he maintains quite clearly that turbolasers and blasters aren't lasers in the sense that we understand them.


Which you know, was my point that you've continued to ignore and instead have simply said, "it works at FTL and is uber powerful so turbo lasers can't hit them."