Rebuttal to darkstar's website

[User1462]

Was the Sun Crusher ever produced in vast amounts? Nope.

Or at all, in the G-canon.

The 200,000 km range for the original Enterprise is a bit wanked, only a bit more than twice the stated phaser range, at least of TOS.

Unless you've seen "The Pegasus."

As to why Nero didn't just replicate up massive amounts of red matter, well, it turns out that red matter needs special equipment to create, equipment that only the Vulcan Science Academy had as of 2387

.

And Nero's ship was only equipped for mining. Besides, he only wanted to destroy one planet. Spock's ship was only equipped for handling the Red Matter, not producing it. However given the technology on Spock's ship, it could be produced.
Also don't forget that they now have the ability to beam onto starships that are moving at warp; I don't know how far they beamed, but it was farther than usual.

That "they can exceed mass energy bullshit" is used by the Death Star's beam.

Which is made impossible by the fact that it's powered by fusion, and it only converted coalesced liquid rock to scattered frozen rock.

And, according to the Death Star novel, which I have, you'd need something as big as the Death Star to house a hypermatter reactor.

And if you've read the canon, as I have, you'd know there's no such thing in the canon-- only EU fanboiwanks.

While the Federation might have time travel, you forget, so do the Borg. The reason that the Borg don't just time travel and assimilate species is because if they travel to a point where the species is weak enough to be easily overpowered by the Borg, then the Borg would have no use assimilating them for their technology or numbers.

But in "First Contact" they did it for Temporal War objectives, i.e. to take over Earth before the Federation was formed, ala "Da Terminator."

And you may also want to consider the long-term effects of time-travel.

I.e. "The Year of Hell," ala "Back to the Future IV." Basically the moral is "don't mess with Father Time."

[Khas]

Um, I was arguing with SWST....

[User1462]

Um, I was arguing with SWST....

But this is a FORUM. You know that, right?

[Khas]

No, I mean in the debate, I was arguing with SWST. I'm Pro-Trek. It just seems to me that you're arguing with me for not being Pro-Trek enough.

[User1462]

No, I mean in the debate, I was arguing with SWST. I'm Pro-Trek. It just seems to me that you're arguing with me for not being Pro-Trek enough.

Nah, I'm on your side. But I did want to make those points.

[User1462]

Especially if they only have no doctors, only medcal droids.

Sorry if I'm being rude, but ROFL what?

One of the main characters of Star Wars: Death Star the novel is a medical surgeon.

Will you stop it with the fanwanking, already? EU IS NOT CANON! Nobody at LFL checks on that stuff, and you can't just claim a giant rubber-stamp! It doesn't exist, get over it!
All we ever see in the G-canon is medical droids.

As for range, yes they can fire at shorter distances, but that's only when equally matched, since then the advantages cancel each other out,and long-range loses its benefit.
But when you're talking about a massive anachronism of ion-drives and plasma-guns, then ST ships can simply hand SW their asses from full-range-- esp if they meant business instead of toying with them, since warp-strafing would be more effective if you made full use of your range, since even at warp 1 you'd only be in range for 2 seconds at a 300,000km range. Meanwhile at warp 9, you're talking only about a millisecond.

[Lucky]

SWST try to not include insults in your posts. It is bad form.

*sigh* Not this again. "modest" is far too vague to be used as an accurate calculator.

modest |ˈmädəst|
adjective
1 unassuming or moderate in the estimation of one's abilities or achievements : he was a very modest man, refusing to take any credit for the enterprise.
2 (of an amount, rate, or level of something) relatively moderate, limited, or small : drink modest amounts of alcohol | employment growth was relatively modest.
• (of a place in which one lives, eats, or stays) not excessively large, elaborate, or expensive : we had bought a modest house.
3 (of a woman) dressing or behaving so as to avoid impropriety or indecency, esp. to avoid attracting sexual attention.
• (of clothing) not revealing or emphasizing the figure : modest dress means that hemlines must be below the knee.

While the word modest does not give any hard numbers it certainly narrows down how large the GFFA can be. It certainly rules out an extremely large galaxy that is 120,000 light years in diameter.

Which, of course, you can provide evidence of, right?

Here, just look at the pretty pictures.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=1478

3 days...by that time, Maul was already able to get off his ship, get a speeder, binoculars and track the Jedi.

We can't know for certain how long they stayed on Tatooine, but it was about threeish days at minimum, but personally would not think they were there more then a week.

Ok, so a few planets are close together.

That calls those uber fast hyperdrive speeds.

What about the claim of the Star Wars galaxy having 400 billion stars was also coincidentally a typo, eh?

Where is that claim made?

I don't have the novel with me, but iirc it was mentioned there.

Well try to find the quote when you get home. I have never seen what you are talked about before.

Eh, the Jedi Temple alone had more Jedi than that.

It's from the Episode one script. Check the Orders of magnitude page on Darkstar's site.

"In the time of Qui-Gon Jinn, ten thousand Jedi Knights in service to the Republic carried on the struggle each day of their lives in a hundred thousand different worlds spread across a galaxy so vast it could barely be comprehended."

He/she claimed that point blank is always better than long range, an assertion that is laughably ridiculous to the extreme. If he/she were a commander, he/she would probably have artillery fire at point blank range...and then get discharged.

When dealing with the Borg it may be since the topic was the Borg. An energy/particle beam will become weaker the farther it travels, and the closer to the borg ship the less things it can do to defend against the attack.

Ah, so darkstar is an even bigger wanker and gives the Enterprise an effective range of 200,000 km, despite the fact that most Trek battles are fought within visual range, sometimes within 1 km.

So you think Star fleet can't measure distances, or the person speaking can't properly read the display every single time? The ranges are taken from dialog, and the ranges are fairly consistent from TOS, TNG, DS9, and surprisingly Voyager. Dialog in this case seems to be more trust worthy then visuals which tend to be eye candy, and messed in some way.

Most trek combat takes place in the tens of thousands of km, but there are examples in the hundreds of thousands..

Within one kilometer is considered dangerous to both ships as shown in The Die Is Cast.

Ok Lucky, so you have no idea what you're talking about either, eh? Your stunning lack of knowledge of common sense and basic military warfare is suprising.

Enlighten me as to why ground combat as it happens in Star Wars is not a sign of libations of their weapons?

If I control the sky and orbit why do I send down an army to attack targets that are unshielded and out in the open by themselves?

That, and matter to convert it from.

From what I recall from the series you just need the energy, but having the matter to start with makes it cheaper and easier. You're turning the base matter into energy anyway remember.

More bullshit, eh? Explain then, why the Federation doesn't produce armies of galaxy class starships from a random asteroid, or why Nero didn't produce a huge amount of red matter from some random block of matter.

Aside from needing to man the galaxy class ships, and possibly not needing them? We never real see how Star Fleet builds ship as I recall, and in DS9 they were producing large numbers of them.

Why didn't an insane miner with only his mining ship and insane crew create a substance that is extremely exotic, dangerous, and seems to need special tools to make more? Among the many reasons he did not know how.

Replicators can make almost anything from what we see in the series, but there are limits. I said just about anything.

Which you provide no evidence for that they can exceed mass-energy conversion, more proof that you have no idea what you're talking about.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Obsession_(episode)

I would not be surprised if Star Wars and Star Trek can also exceed the limits of real world fusion as well. Fictional universes are not limited by what is possible in the real world remember.

So are you saying that they're going to make stuff out of anti matter? ROFL?

No I am saying the UFP easily creates anti-matter, and thinks nothing of letting teenagers use it in high school science projects.They also seem to have an easy way to turn normal matter into anti-matter as shown in the "Dooms Day Machine".

Ah, more schematics, eh? The fact is that Star Wars's power generation is thousands of times superior to that of Federation power generation, regardless of however many fancy technicalities you want to point out, or utter bullshit ("eh they can exceed mass-energy!").

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Zillo_Beast

I'd like to see where this superior power generation is.

Really? And did the Federation ever reproduce sun busting torpedos, or the genesis device, in vast amounts? Nope.

They have never needed to, but never lost the capability.

What?

A plot point in the Sun Crusher's story line is that they attempt to destroy it with the prototype death star.

At the end of ep3 they skip making the prototype, and go straight to the death star as seen finished in ep4.

If there was no death star prototype then is any story line relating to the Death star prototype canon?

Eh, I might not have watched enough Star Trek, because I don't remember Federation ships using genesis devices.

While Genisis derivative technologies are only implied to be used for terraforming, star busting, and wiping out all life on a planet is flavor of the day stuff. We've gone over this already.

Here is an example of two or three ways the UFP could do it.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tox_Uthat
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Trilithium_weapon

Then why is this website existant? Surely there can be no point to the debate if, according to you, it couldn't happen!

It is a hobby that involves "what if scenarios". There likely would not be a meeting between the two galaxies until after the UFP has started building purpose built time ships.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Timeship

No it isn't, because otherwise the Federation would have wiped out the borg, the dominion, etc.

Would they have? I don't see why the UFP would wipe them out.

Don't forget the UFP has rules called the Temporal Prime Directive.http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Temporal_Prime_Directive

Given how perfectly things go for the UFP it's almost like someone is stacking the deck in the UFPs favor somehow. Unseen time travelers would account for this, and we have seen a few of them.

And where is this great computer security shown from the borg, Mr. Hypocrite?

You'll have to give examples of what you mean the borg has poor computer security. The UFP had the help of a Borg in both "Best of both worlds II" and "I, Borg", and we have no real world equivalents to a neurolytic pathogen(which is not a computer program).


Any old computer can be plugged into a port, and take over a ship, access blue prints, and such in Star Wars.

[2046]

I read this and almost let it slide, but it exceeded my annoyance-divided-by-time-about-to-be-spent threshold.

The 200,000 km range for the original Enterprise is a bit wanked, only a bit more than twice the stated phaser range, at least of TOS.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Constituti ... al_systems

I said "even an evading starship from a century ago can successfully hit a one meter object from about 90,000 kilometers."

You say I'm wanking on the range topic, though, because some git on a wiki just ran with the 90,000km, and thus that is the "stated phaser range"?

Is that seriously your basis of accusing me of inflating Trek tech?

[Who is like God arbour]

But 120,000 LY diameter is not a modest size for a galaxy, and the farther you go back in time the smaller galaxies get.

*sigh* Not this again. "modest" is far too vague to be used as an accurate calculator.

You are right insofar as that "modest-sized" is far too vague to be used to determine the exact size of the galaxy.

But it is concrete enough to enable us to determine that a 120.000 ly galaxy is not a modest-sized galaxy.

Look at it that way:

• • Imagine a loose woman, to not say a prostitute, tells you that the penis of the last man she slept with is only modest-sized. You know that the woman is familiar with the different sizes of penises and you have no reason to not believe that woman.
    
    You may not know exactly how long that someone's penis is but considering the different studies made on this delicate topic, you may know that the average penis is between 12.9 cm and 16 cm long. That does not tell you how long the modest-sized penis of that man is. But it at least tells you, that it can not be 20 cm or more - although such penises do exist.
    
    If now this man came to you and claimed that his penis is 25 cm long, you would know - believing that woman - that he lies - although - with your words - » "modest" is far too vague to be used as an accurate calculator. « You wouldn't know how long his penis is but you would know that it can't be 25 cm long because then it wouldn't be modest-sized.

And that is the same with a modest-sized galaxy. We do not have to know how large a modest-sized galaxy is. It is enough to know that a 120.000 ly galaxy is not a modest-sized galaxy.

[Picard]

I would like to note something regarding torpedo/phaser range.

In TOS, we have torpedo range as being 90 000 kilometers against 1-meter probe (about half of meter wide). There is combat range of about 200 000 kilometers against another starship, but I think it is at warp. But it still allows for grand 238 000 kilometers for torpedo effective range 100 years later.

[User1462]

A figure can't be wanked if it's in the canon.

[Mike DiCenso]

They also seem to have an easy way to turn normal matter into anti-matter as shown in the "Dooms Day Machine".

You have that a bit flip-flopped. The Constellation and presumably the Enterprise's antimatter supplies were "deactivated". It could be implied that they have a way to regenerate that supply once the planet killer was destroyed and Scotty repaired the Enterprise's warp drive.
-Mike

[Lucky]

They also seem to have an easy way to turn normal matter into anti-matter as shown in the "Dooms Day Machine".

You have that a bit flip-flopped. The Constellation and presumably the Enterprise's antimatter supplies were "deactivated". It could be implied that they have a way to regenerate that supply once the planet killer was destroyed and Scotty repaired the Enterprise's warp drive.
-Mike

The anti-,matter was made non-reactive with pro-matter. The only way to do that I know of is to transform the anti-matter into pro-matter. My understanding is that this is in theory possible if you can effect things on the right level. Scotty would have had to make more rather then "regenerate" the anti-matter.

Being able to easily turn pro-matter into anti-matter, and back makes sense give how easily the UFP seems to create anti-matter in. Voyager never seemed low on anti-matter, but was low on pro-matter, and I seem to recall something from the tech manuals about it, and some tool called a quantum something or other.

[User1462]

They also seem to have an easy way to turn normal matter into anti-matter as shown in the "Dooms Day Machine".

You have that a bit flip-flopped. The Constellation and presumably the Enterprise's antimatter supplies were "deactivated". It could be implied that they have a way to regenerate that supply once the planet killer was destroyed and Scotty repaired the Enterprise's warp drive.
-Mike

The anti-,matter was made non-reactive with pro-matter. The only way to do that I know of is to transform the anti-matter into pro-matter. My understanding is that this is in theory possible if you can effect things on the right level. Scotty would have had to make more rather then "regenerate" the anti-matter.

Being able to easily turn pro-matter into anti-matter, and back makes sense give how easily the UFP seems to create anti-matter in. Voyager never seemed low on anti-matter, but was low on pro-matter, and I seem to recall something from the tech manuals about it, and some tool called a quantum something or other.

On ST-v-SW.net, DarkStar says that starships have antimatter replenishment facilties onboard, and Scotty could have used those.
To create anti-matter, they need to simply convert energy into matter-- which gives equal parts pro-matter and anti-matter. And of course, these can be combined to convert it back into energy. But you can't cheat physics by turning pro-matter into anti-matter without the requisite energy, though it could be possible to render anti-matter able to combine with matter, but the Constellation crew clearly couldn't do it once their warp-engines were destroyed and the impulse-engines were off-line.

In "Catspaw," Kirk said in Season 2 that the Enterprise's engines could easily manufacture "a ton" of precious gems, while in "Arena" he says that the planet had "a fortune in diamonds," so perhaps this upgrade happened in-between.
Likewise in "Arena," McCoy says that meals on the Enterprise were "reconstituted," while in Charlie X the chef on the intercom says that they eat "synthetic meatloaf;" but later in seasons 2 we see advanced food-synthesizes wich can make any dish including Klingon meals by season 3.

Fiinally, "Balance of Terror" shows the Enterprise equipped with only pulse-phasers, while later they use beam-phasers with phaser-lock, and Photon Torpedoes.

Long story short: the ship clearly undergoes regular upgrades of its technology,;and one of these included anti-matter replenishment, since otherwise the ship would be incapabl of Warp, like at the end of "This Side of Paradise."

[StarWarsStarTrek]

modest |ˈmädəst|
adjective
1 unassuming or moderate in the estimation of one's abilities or achievements : he was a very modest man, refusing to take any credit for the enterprise.
2 (of an amount, rate, or level of something) relatively moderate, limited, or small : drink modest amounts of alcohol | employment growth was relatively modest.
• (of a place in which one lives, eats, or stays) not excessively large, elaborate, or expensive : we had bought a modest house.
3 (of a woman) dressing or behaving so as to avoid impropriety or indecency, esp. to avoid attracting sexual attention.
• (of clothing) not revealing or emphasizing the figure : modest dress means that hemlines must be below the knee.

While the word modest does not give any hard numbers it certainly narrows down how large the GFFA can be. It certainly rules out an extremely large galaxy that is 120,000 light years in diameter.

Except that the Essential Atlas gives a figure of 120,000 LY in diameter, written with a 3rd person omniscient perspective, which trumps a 3rd person limited perspective in terms of reliability.

Here, just look at the pretty pictures.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=1478

Ah, so you expect me to look through 7 pages of a thread to find these "pretty pictures" of yours?

We can't know for certain how long they stayed on Tatooine, but it was about threeish days at minimum, but personally would not think they were there more then a week.

Right, and a Federation force sub would involves years or decades just to get to Tatooine.

That calls those uber fast hyperdrive speeds.

Such hyperdrive speeds are canon, and having a few planets being close together does absolutely nothing to refute it.

Where is that claim made?

...The Essential Atlas.

Well try to find the quote when you get home. I have never seen what you are talked about before.

Ah. Even as an absolute upper limit, it would have no more than a few years of construction time, which is the upper limit for the construction time of the Death Star 2.

It's from the Episode one script. Check the Orders of magnitude page on Darkstar's site.

What; are you claiming that the Jedi Temple had less than 200 Jedi? Where is your evidence.

"In the time of Qui-Gon Jinn, ten thousand Jedi Knights in service to the Republic carried on the struggle each day of their lives in a hundred thousand different worlds spread across a galaxy so vast it could barely be comprehended."

I did not deny the 10,000 Jedi claim. What I was saying was that the Jedi Temple alone had more than 200 Jedi.

When dealing with the Borg it may be since the topic was the Borg. An energy/particle beam will become weaker the farther it travels, and the closer to the borg ship the less things it can do to defend against the attack.

Yet photon torpedos do not suffer from that problem...but the Federation still fired them at point blank range, despite supposedly having >100,000 KM effective ranges. The only possible explanation is that the Federation ships have crap range.

So you think Star fleet can't measure distances, or the person speaking can't properly read the display every single time?

To be honest, that wouldn't surprise me, given that Federation characters make mistakes like every episode.

The ranges are taken from dialog, and the ranges are fairly consistent from TOS, TNG, DS9, and surprisingly Voyager. Dialog in this case seems to be more trust worthy then visuals which tend to be eye candy, and messed in some way.

ROFL what? Did you just claim that visuals are less reliable than visuals? Thank you for admitting that you are clearly desperate to win this debate. You try to refute the ICS by using visuals, and then turn around and claim that dialog trumps visuals. By that account, the 200 gigaton claim > all TCW visuals. Star Wars wins.

Most trek combat takes place in the tens of thousands of km, but there are examples in the hundreds of thousands..

Reversed; most trek combat takes place within a few KMs or even within a few hundred meters, but there are examples over over 10 kms.

Reversed;
Within one kilometer is considered dangerous to both ships as shown in The Die Is Cast.

And yet Federation commander regularly go within 1 km ranges; surprise, Federation commanders are morons!

Enlighten me as to why ground combat as it happens in Star Wars is not a sign of libations of their weapons?

Enlighten as to how they are. It's not my job to prove a negative, especially not to one as ridiculous as yours. I suppose that the United States' tanks are a sign of their limited air combat, eh?

If I control the sky and orbit why do I send down an army to attack targets that are unshielded and out in the open by themselves?

To occupy territory, smart one? This is basic military warfare.

From what I recall from the series you just need the energy, but having the matter to start with makes it cheaper and easier. You're turning the base matter into energy anyway remember.

And where does that energy come from? Magic?

Aside from needing to man the galaxy class ships,

Ah, more examples of the Federation's vastly smaller scale.

and possibly not needing them?

ROFL what? So during the dominion war and the various borg invasions they didn't need more galaxy class ships?

We never real see how Star Fleet builds ship as I recall,

The TM and the new Star Trek movie suggest that they build them conventionally, and not using magi-tech replicators.

and in DS9 they were producing large numbers of them.

"large" amounts that are absolutely nothing compared to the industrial capability of Star Wars.

Why didn't an insane miner with only his mining ship and insane crew create a substance that is extremely exotic, dangerous, and seems to need special tools to make more? Among the many reasons he did not know how.

Then how did he get the red matter at all?

Replicators can make almost anything from what we see in the series, but there are limits. I said just about anything.

"just about anything" means basic materials. It does not in any way counter the huge industrial might of Star Wars.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Obsession_(episode)

Details, please.

I would not be surprised if Star Wars and Star Trek can also exceed the limits of real world fusion as well. Fictional universes are not limited by what is possible in the real world remember.

As in fusion, both Star Wars and Star Trek probably use some exotic form of fusion that we do not know about.

No I am saying the UFP easily creates anti-matter, and thinks nothing of letting teenagers use it in high school science projects.They also seem to have an easy way to turn normal matter into anti-matter as shown in the "Dooms Day Machine".

And yet they need matter to annihilate the anti-matter with to get energy. Therefore, they still need matter to get the energy, and thus your claim about them not needing matter is moot.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Zillo_Beast

I'd like to see where this superior power generation is.

Please elaborate.

They have never needed to, but never lost the capability.

Nice goalpost move, because you originally claimed that they had large supplies of them.

A plot point in the Sun Crusher's story line is that they attempt to destroy it with the prototype death star.

At the end of ep3 they skip making the prototype, and go straight to the death star as seen finished in ep4.

Really? And how do you know that the Death Star shown wasn't the prototype?

If there was no death star prototype then is any story line relating to the Death star prototype canon?

While Genisis derivative technologies are only implied to be used for terraforming, star busting, and wiping out all life on a planet is flavor of the day stuff. We've gone over this already.

Do you seriously not understand the possibilities of such a device? Obviously the Federation is either too stupid to understand it or can't produce it. Make your pick.

Here is an example of two or three ways the UFP could do it.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tox_Uthat
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Trilithium_weapon

Oh, and THEY NEVER MASS PRODUCED THE STAR BUSTERS!

It is a hobby that involves "what if scenarios". There likely would not be a meeting between the two galaxies until after the UFP has started building purpose built time ships.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Timeship

Then why did you make such a stupid evasion move that the war wouldn't even happen?

Would they have? I don't see why the UFP would wipe them out.

Eh, because they're a threat to their existence?

Don't forget the UFP has rules called the Temporal Prime Directive.http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Temporal_Prime_Directive

Such prime directives are basically always violated when the fate of the Federation calls for it, which means that time travel spam is not an option for the Federation.

Given how perfectly things go for the UFP it's almost like someone is stacking the deck in the UFPs favor somehow. Unseen time travelers would account for this, and we have seen a few of them.

Ok, thanks for showing that you have no idea what you're talking about.

You'll have to give examples of what you mean the borg has poor computer security. The UFP had the help of a Borg in both "Best of both worlds II" and "I, Borg", and we have no real world equivalents to a neurolytic pathogen(which is not a computer program).

Ah, more double standards. You want me to show examples of good Star Wars security, yet refuse to give examples of borg computer security being good. Instead, you put the burden of proof on me to prove the positive of one side and a negative on another. If you want me to prove that the borg have poor computer security, you have to prove that Star Wars has poor computer security, you hypocrite.

Any old computer can be plugged into a port, and take over a ship, access blue prints, and such in Star Wars.

Thanks for showing that you have no idea as to what you're talking about. You claim that there are invisible time travelers helping the Federation without us viewers ever knowing, that having a ground army shows inferior space forces, and make huge double standards on burden of proof.

Lucky, you're being completely dishonest with debating. Such hypocrisy is not good form, and it's not polite either. It's arguably even worse than blunt insults, just a lot more subtle. If you want me to prove good Star Wars security, don't turn around and deny that you have to prove the same for your side, or change your mind and suddenly want me to prove a negative for you side. It's not honest.

Your claim that visuals are trumped by dialog is more proof of your dishonesty, because in other debates you've tried to refute dialog with visuals.