Rebuttal to darkstar's website

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Who is like God arbour
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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:12 pm

I could again explain what is the difference between an omniscient third person narrator and a limited third person narrator.

But I will save that time because I know now, that you do not really read what I or others have written. But by replying, you are pretending to have done exactly that. And that is dishonest.

It is obviously that nothing say can convince you or change your view even if only for a iota.

If you want to think that a narrator who can tell what has happened at different places and different times with different persons is not an omniscient third person narrator - it's okay.

If you want to think that, when a limited third person narrator gives facts about the surrounding of the person, he is focused on, he gives only subjective impressions of sad person - it's okay.

If you want to think that that this
            • [...]

              The smoke that Luke saw as he drew near the homestead was of a different consistency from that which had boiled out of the jawa machine.
              He barely remembered to shut down the landspeeder's engine as he popped the cockpit canopy and threw himself out. Dark smoke was drifting steadily from holes in the ground.
              Those holes had been his home, the only one he had ever known. They might as well have been throats of small volcanoes now. Again and again he tried to penetrate the surface entrances to the below-ground complex. Again and again the still-intense heat drove him back, coughing and choking.
              Weakly he found himself stumbling clear, his eyes watering not entirely from the smoke.
              Half blinded, he staggered over to the exterior entrance to the garage. It too was burning. But perhaps they managed to escape in the other landspeeder.
              'Aunt Beru ... Uncle Owen!' It was difficult to make out much of anything through the eye-stinging haze. Two smoking shapes showed down the tunnel barely visible through tears and haze. They almost looked like- He squinted harder, wiping angrily at his uncooperative eyes.
              No.
              Then he was spinning away, falling to his stomach and burying his face in the sand so he wouldn't have to look anymore.

              The tridimensional solid screen filled one wall of the vast chamber from floor to ceiling. It showed a million star systems. A tiny portion of the galaxy, but an impressive display nonetheless when exhibited in such a fashion.
              Below, far below, the huge shape of Darth Vader stood flanked on one side by Governor Tarkin and on the other by Admiral Motti and General Tagge, their private antagonisms forgotten in the awe-someness of this moment.
              'The final checkout is complete,' Motti informed them. 'All systems are operational.'
              He turned to the others. 'What shall be the first course we set?'
              Vader appeared not to have heard as he mumbled softly, half to himself, 'She has a surprising amount of control. Her resistance to the interrogator is considerable.' He glanced down at Tarkin. 'It will be some time before we can extract any useful information from her.'
              'I've always found the methods you recommend rather quaint, Vader.'
              'They are efficient,' the Dark Lord argued softly. 'In the interests of accelerating the procedure, however, I am open to your suggestions.'
              Tarkin looked thoughtful. 'Such stubbornness can often be detoured by applying threats to something other than the one involved.'
              'What do you mean?'
              'Only that I think it is time we demonstrated the full power of this station. We may do so in a fashion doubly useful.' He instructed the attentive Motti, 'Tell your programmers to set course for the Alderaan system.'

              Kenobi's pride did not prevent him from wrapping an old scarf over nose and mouth to filter out a portion of the bonfire's drifting putrid odor. Though possessed of olfactory sensory apparatus, Artoo Detoo and Threepio had no need of such a screen. Even Threepio, who was equipped to discriminate among aromatic aesthetics, could be artifically selective when he so desired.
              Working together, the two droids helped Kenobi throw the last of the bodies onto the blazing pyre, then stood back and watched the dead continue to burn. Not that the desert scavengers wouldn't have been equally efficient in picking the burned-out sandcrawler clean of flesh, but Kenobi retained values most modern men would have deemed archaic. He would consign no one to the bone-gnawers and gravel-maggots, not even a filthy jawa.

              [...]

              'You mean, there's nothing you can do?' Luke asked, feeling unbelievably helpless.
              Solo studied the overloaded sensor readouts and shook his head. 'Not against this kind of power. I'm on full power myself, kid, and it's not shifting out of course a fraction of a degree. It's no use. I'm going to have to shut down or we'll melt our engines. But they're not going to suck me up like so much dust without a fight!'
              He started to vacate the pilot's chair, but was restrained by an aged yet powerful hand on his shoulder. An expression of concern was on the old man's face - and yet, a suggestion of something somewhat less funereal.
              'If it's a fight you cannot win - well, my boy, there are always alternatives to fighting ...'
              The true size of the battle station became apparent as the freighter was pulled closer and closer. Running around the station's equator was an artificial cluster of metal mountains, docking ports stretching beckoning fingers nearly two kilometers above the surface.
              Now only a minuscule speck against the gray bulk of the station, the Millennium Falcon was sucked toward one of those steel pseudopods and finally swallowed by it. A lake of metal closed off the entryway, and the freighter vanished as if it had never existed.

              Vader stared at the motley array of stars displayed on the conference-room map while Tarkin and Admiral Motti conferred nearby. Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy.
              It would take a microbreakdown of a portion of this map to reveal a slight reduction in spatial mass, caused by the disappearance of Alderaan. Alderaan, with its many cities, farms, factories, and towns - and traitors, Vader reminded himself.
              Despite his advances and intricate technological methods of annihilation, the actions of mankind remained unnoticeable to an uncaring, unimaginably vast universe. If Vader's grandest plans ever came to pass, all that would change.
              He was well aware that despite all their intelligence and drive, the vastness and wonder were lost on the two men who continued to chatter monkeylike behind him. Tarkin and Motti were talented and ambitious, but they saw things only on the scale of human pettiness. It was a pity, Vader thought, that they did not possess the scope to match their abilities.
              Still, neither man was a Dark Lord. As such, little more could be expected of them. These two were useful now. and dangerous, but someday they, like Alderaan, would have to be swept aside. For now he could not afford to ignore them. And while he would have preferred the company of equals, he had to admit reluctantly that at this point, he had no equals.
              Nonetheless, he turned to them and insinuated himself into their conversation. 'The defense systems on Alderaan, despite the Senator's protestations to the contrary, were as strong as any in the Empire. I should conclude that our demonstration was as impressive as it was thorough.'
              Tarkin turned to him, nodding. The Senate is being informed of our action at this very moment. Soon we will be able to announce the extermination of the Alliance itself, as soon as we have dealt with their main military base. Now that their main source of munitions, Alderaan, has been eliminated, the rest of those systems with secessionist inclinations will fall in line quickly enough, you'll see.'
              Tarkin turned as an Imperial officer entered the chamber. 'Yes, what is it, Cass?'
              The unlucky officer wore the expression of the mouse chosen to bell the cat. 'Governor, the advance scouts have reached and circumnavigated Dantooine. They have found the remains of a rebel base ... which they estimate has been deserted for some time. Years, possibly. They are proceeding with an extensive survey of the remainder of the system.'
              Tarkin turned apoplectic, his face darkening to a fine pomegranate fury. 'She lied! She lied to us!'
              No one could see, but it seemed that Vader must have smiled behind his mask. 'Then we are even in the first exchange of "truths." I told you she would never betray the rebellion - unless she thought her confession could somehow destroy us in the process.'
              'Terminate her immediately!' The Governor was barely able to form words.
              'Calm yourself, Tarkin,' Vader advised him. 'You would throw away our only link to the real rebel base so casually? She can still be of value to us.'
              'Fagh! You just said it yourself, Vader: we'll get nothing more out of her. I'll find that hidden fortress if I have to destroy every star system in this sector. I'll-
              A quiet yet demanding beep interrupted him.
              'Yes, what is it?' he inquired irritably.
              A voice reported over an unseen speaker. 'Sirs, we've captured a small freighter that was entering the remains of Alderaan. A standard check indicates that its markings apparently match that of the ship which blasted its way out of the quarantine at Mos Eisley, Tatooine system, and went hyper before the Imperial blockade craft there could close on it.'
              Tarkin looked puzzled. 'Mos Eisley? Tatooine? What is this? What's this all about, Vader?'
              'It means, Tarkin, that the last of our unresolved difficulties is about to be eliminated. Someone apparently received the missing data tapes, learned who transcribed them, and was trying to return them to her. We may be able to facilitate their meeting with the Senator.'
              Tarkin started to say something, hesitated, then nodded in understanding. 'How convenient. I leave this matter in your hands, Vader.'
              The Dark Lord bowed slightly, a gesture which Tarkin acknowledged with a perfunctory salute. Then he spun and strode from the room, leaving Motti looking from man to man in confusion.

              The freighter sat listlessly in the docking hangar of the huge bay. Thirty armed Imperial troopers stood before the lowered main ramp leading into the ship. They snapped to attention when Vader and a Commander approached. Vader halted at the base of the ramp, studying the vessel as an officer and several soldiers came forward.
              'There was no reply to our repeated signals, sir, so we activated the ramp from outside. We've made no contact with anyone aboard either by communicator or in person,' the officer reported.
              'Send your men in,' Vader ordered.
              Turning, the officer relayed the command to a noncom, who barked orders. A number of the heavily armored soldiers made their way up the ramp and entered the outer hold. They advanced with appreciable caution.
              Inside, two men covered a third as he advanced. Moving in groups of three in this fashion, they rapidly spread through the ship. Corridors rang hollowly under metal-shod feet, and doors slid aside willingly as they were activated.
              'Empty,' the Sergeant in charge finally declared in surprise. 'Check the cockpit.'
              Several troopers made their way forward and slid the portal aside, only to discover the pilot's chairs as vacant as the rest of the freighter. The controls were deactivated and all systems shut down. Only a single light on the console winked on and off fitfully. The Sergeant moved forward, recognized the source of the light, and activated the appropriate controls. A printout appeared on a nearby screen. He studied it intently, then turned to convey the information to his superior, who was waiting by the main hatch.
              That worthy listened carefully before he turned and called down to the Commander and Vader. 'There is no one aboard; the ship is completely deserted, sirs. According to the ship's log, her crew abandoned ship immediately after lift-off, then set her on automatics for Alderaan.'
              'Possibly a decoy,' the Commander ventured aloud. 'Then they should still be on Tatooine!'
              'Possibly,' Vader admitted reluctantly.
              'Several of the escape pods have been jettisoned,' the officer went on.
              'Did you find any droids on board?' Vader called.
              'No, sir - nothing. If there were any, they must have abandoned the ship along with the organic crew.'
              Vader hesitated before replying. When he did so, uncertainty was evident in his voice. 'This doesn't feel right. Send a fully equipped scanning team on board. I want every centimeter of that ship checked out. See to it as soon as possible.' With that, he whirled and stalked from the hangar, pursued by the infuriating feeling that he was overlooking something of vital importance.
              The rest of the assembled soldiers were dismissed by the officer. On board the freighter, a last lone figure left off examining the space beneath the cockpit consoles and ran to join his comrades. He was anxious to be off this ghost ship and back in the comfortable surroundings of the barracks. His heavy footsteps echoed through the once more empty freighter.
              Below, the muffled sounds of the officer giving final orders faded, leaving the interior in complete quiet. The quivering of a portion of the floor was the only movement on board.
              Abruptly the quivering became a sharp upheaval. Two metal panels popped upward, followed by a pair of tousled heads. Han Solo and Luke looked around quickly, then managed to relax a little when it became clear that the ship was as empty as it sounded.
              'Lucky you'd built these compartments,' Luke commented.
              Solo was not as cheerily confident. 'Where did you think I kept smuggled goods - in the main hold? I admit I never expected to smuggle myself in them.' He started violently at a sudden sound, but it was only another of the panels shifting aside.
              'This is ridiculous. It isn't going to work. Even if I could take off and get past the closed hatch' - he jabbed a thumb upward - 'we'd never get past that tractor beam.'
              Another panel opened, revealing the face of an elderly imp. 'You leave that to me.'
              'I was afraid you'd say something like that,' muttered Solo. 'You're a damn fool, old man.'
              Kenobi grinned at him. 'What does that say of the man who allows himself to be hired by a fool?'

              [...]
is not the telling of an omniscient third person narrator, who gives a panoramic view of the world of the story, looking into many characters and into the broader background of a story and can tell feelings of every character and that the POV is fixed on a single person or group - it's okay.

I'll do nothing to convince you from the opposite because I know that this would be futile.

But maybe you should speak with your English-teacher.

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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:57 pm

And your explanation for the word "interestingly" being used is...what exactly? The word interestingly is subjective, which clearly implies a 3rd person limited view. Especially later in the text, when there's "Vader remembered blahblahblahblah" and "blahblahblah, Vader reminded himself" as well as "As such, little more could be expected of them", something that clearly isn't 3rd person limited.

In Star Wars: Death Star:

"Tarkin blinked. No, it wouldn't. He was calm. All would be well. The station was invulnerable. It was unbeatable. It was unthinkable that it could be beaten.

Unthinkable-"

Surely then, since the supposedly omniscient 3rd person narrator said so, the Death Star was invulnerable and unbeatable, right? Yet the Rebel Alliance beat it, so surely that must mean that the weapon yield of a proton torpedo is infinity! Given that Luke in his X wing survived such an explosion by running away, X wings would be able to withstand infinite energy! And Tarkin said that it's "unthinkable" that it could happen, showing that the Rebel Alliance can defy reality and logic itself!

Conclusion based on your logic: The Rebel Alliance one shots the Federation with infinite yield proton torpedos and reality warping powers.

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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:53 pm

Thank you for confirming that you have no clue about what you are talking.

An omniscient third person narrator knows what all persons are thinking or feeling. That's why he is omniscient. But that does not mean that he has to tell you all he knows. And that does not mean that he has no own emotions and thoughts. To include the own emotions and thoughts, although they may be subjective, does not make the third person narrator to a limited third person narrator - especially when he knows more than a on one person focused and thus limited narrator can know.

And if you are not able to differentiate between the facts, a narrator is telling and the thoughts a character has, than you should pay more attention in your English-classes.

Furthermore, we were talking about the novelization of » A New Hope « and the quotes out of it.

Even if another Star Wars novel is told by a limited third person narrator or even a first person narrator, it does not say anything about the novelization of » A New Hope « and its narrator and what from what he has told are merely thoughts of a character and what are objective facts and what are his own thoughts.

But of course, you wouldn't know the difference anyway.

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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:26 pm

WILGA wrote:Thank you for confirming that you have no clue about what you are talking.
No, you clearly don't seem to understand what a 3rd person omniscient PoV is.

An omniscient third person narrator knows what all persons are thinking or feeling
Ok
. That's why he is omniscient. But that does not mean that he has to tell you all he knows.
And the narrator was clearly describing what Vader was thinking with the "modest sized galaxy", so what's your point?
And that does not mean that he has no own emotions and thoughts.
So then you suppose that Drew Karpyshyn really does think honor to be a lie and for the sith way to be the right way?
really To include the own emotions and thoughts, although they may be subjective, does not make the third person narrator to a limited third person narrator - especially when he knows more than a on one person focused and thus limited narrator can know.
Again, the "modest sized galaxy" part was clearly in the PoV of Vader and was describing Vader's thoughts. That is, Vader was looking out of the viewpoint and musing about the galaxy.

And if you are not able to differentiate between the facts, a narrator is telling and the thoughts a character has, than you should pay more attention in your English-classes.
ROFLLAMO. In that case, Star Wars wins. Why?

In Star Wars: Death Star:

"Tarkin blinked. No, it wouldn't. He was calm. All would be well. The station was invulnerable. It was unbeatable. It was unthinkable that it could be beaten.

Unthinkable-"

Yet Luke Skywalker destroyed it. Therefore:

1. A proton torpedo can defeat an indestructible station, thus giving it a yield of infinite joules.
2. Luke can warp and defy reality to do things that defy logic and are unthinkable, and can defy physics too.
Furthermore, we were talking about the novelization of » A New Hope « and the quotes out of it.
You still haven't proven that the ANH novel is 3rd person omniscient, so your claim that it is does not stand.
Even if another Star Wars novel is told by a limited third person narrator or even a first person narrator, it does not say anything about the novelization of » A New Hope « and its narrator and what from what he has told are merely thoughts of a character and what are objective facts and what are his own thoughts.
Except that the burden of proof is on you, but clearly that's beyond your understanding.
But of course, you wouldn't know the difference anyway.
Hey, more proof that Star Wars wins!

From Legacy of the Force: Inferno:

"The one thing Han knew for sure was that Luke could not have gone in the usual way, in a lightsaber duel or a dogfight or just stepping off a pedwalk without looking. It would have taken something big, like a planet exploding...or a sudden change in the laws of physics."

Based on standard logic, this would simply be Han Solo's musings, but based on your logic the 3rd person omniscient author is supposedly saying this; "knew for sure" surely would mean that it's true for CERTAIN, and the last sentence in the quote did not have a "Han thought" or other phrase like that! ZOMG!

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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Khas » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:15 pm

You can't possibly be this blind to the truth. You HAVE to be closing your eyes, covering your ears, and going "lalalalalalalalalalalalala".

Of course the Death Star wasn't invulnerable, you twit. It was, however, considered invulnerable to the militaries of the galaxy, but a high-end natural phenomenon like a supernova would vaporize it. And that weakspot lead straight to the reactor, which was stated that, if hit, would trigger a chain reaction, destroying the station. It's just that the exhaust port was so small, and the Empire didn't consider small, one-man fighters a threat, that it was invulnerable in the eyes of it's commander.

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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:58 am

Khas, as this is not in your habit here, and as it would be the first time, I will give you this "public" warning:
Calling someone a "twit", no matter how much you may think he is, is not acceptable here.
Please refrain from doing so in the future...
Thanks.

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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:56 pm

I have a few simple question for our omniscient member, StarWarsStarTrek:
  1. How can you differentiate between thoughts of a character, a narrator is telling, and objective facts, the narrator is telling?
  2. Is there a difference between the ways, an omniscient third person narrator and a limited third person narrator would do it?
  3. What is the difference between a narrator and a PoV?
  4. Does an omniscient third person narrator or a limited third person narrator tell their stories from the PoV of a character and when yes, what is the difference in the ways they are doing it?

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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:49 pm

WILGA wrote:I have a few simple question for our omniscient member, StarWarsStarTrek:
  1. How can you differentiate between thoughts of a character, a narrator is telling, and objective facts, the narrator is telling?
  2. Is there a difference between the ways, an omniscient third person narrator and a limited third person narrator would do it?
  3. What is the difference between a narrator and a PoV?
  4. Does an omniscient third person narrator or a limited third person narrator tell their stories from the PoV of a character and when yes, what is the difference in the ways they are doing it?
1. In the context of a third person limited narrator, all of the text is from the subjective point of view of various characters. Some of the facts are pretty objective, such as somebody walking somewhere, but are still from the PoV of a character.

2. A third person omniscient character would have things like "Leia smiled. She was thinking about all the wonderful times she was going to have. But she didn't notice the giant shadow behind her" - unless if such is a flashback by somebody who somehow knew that Leia was thinking through mind reading or something. Or, the text could describe in detail the thoughts of two characters without changing PoV; note that this does not merely mean the 3rd person limited way of "he seemed disturbed" or "was disturbed (if it was obvious from the PoV of another character)", but actually specific thoughts of different characters without changing PoV.

3. Uh, the narrator is the author. The PoV is the perspective from which the author is telling a part of the story from, and changes often.

4. A 3rd person limited author always tells the story from the PoV of a character and changes PoVs regularly (usually). A 3rd person omniscient author might focus on some characters, but will often say stuff that said character wouldn't know.

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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:56 pm

I'm sorry but... why is all of this important anyway?

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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:41 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I'm sorry but... why is all of this important anyway?
Because StarWarsStarTrek is trying to pass of his BS as fact, namely that because Vader, Starfighter pilot extraordinaire, does not know how big a modest-sized Galaxy would be like because he isn't an astrophysisist.
Which is pure BS, because I am not an astrophysisist, and I know that a modest-sized Galaxy cannot be 120 000 LY across...

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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:44 pm

Padathrawn wrote:
But there's no proof that ship-time is the same as real-space time. From the time Obi-wan sends the message, to the time for Yoda to go to Kamino and back, it could have been months for all we know; in any event, we know that Dooku wasn't going to kill anyone
before
Yoda got there, since it was purely staged for that reason, i.e. make the Jedi think that the Clones were on their side.
ROFL...what? Do you seriously think that the Council waited for months to go to help Obi Wan?

Obviously point-blank range is more effective than maximum, particularly when dealing with an enemy that adapts to your attacks rather than deflecting them, and since closer means less time to adapt to the incoming attack. The Defiant, for example, was designed to get even closer, possibly even ramming the ship and going righ through it at full phasers: that's why it had a cloaking-device, i.e. so that a huge number of them could move in and shoot while cloaked, and knock out the entire Cube before the Borg had a chance to adapt.
You do realize that the two forces were moving within a few hundred meters of each other, right? That's simply ridiculous to the extreme, and there is almost no justification for such a maneuver. Any space age fleet should not have to move within a km to hit a giant borg cube that wasn't trying to dodge/evade any of the attacks.

Who said they couldn't? 5km is about 3000 miles, which is exactly what DarkStar said.
...did you just say that 5km is about 3000 miles? Or am I reading this wrong?
Like Darth Vader's ship knocking R2D2 out of commission for a few hours-- something that a Jawa did earlier with a hand-held taser? Doesn't sound too frightening.
More cherry picking. What about the times when blasters were making giant holes in walls, blasting off chunks of concrete and blasting droids apart?
You don't provide counterclaims, so it's better than nothing.
EU sources give the imperial fleet 25,000 star destroyers. Darkstar would rather use a figure of speech by Han Solo in a state of near shock. Han Solo also said in LOTF: Invincible that mando ships could fly through supernovas, but we obviously know that such is hyperbole.

A small town is a small town.
ROFL what? This is your response? You do realize that a modern town would be more populated than ancient Rome, right? Based on glimpses of Taris from orbit, a city in Star Wars even back in the KOTOR era is the size of a continent. Based on modern day city:small town scalings a Star Wars small town would actually be larger than New York City. Instead, darkstar would rather use Mos Eisley, in the backwater Tatooine, as a figure for a small town in the context of Coruscant!


Or need any.
Except that there are numerous occasions when Federation redshirts could have won far more easily if they were to simply use modern combat doctrine and designs.

Star Trek's is over a thousand planets, and I didn't see several hundred million seats in the Senate on Coruscant.
Actually, there are a huge amount of senators in the Galactic Senate that were shown, enough to cover a huge building that dwarfs modern skyscrapers.

Unless it were "far, far away" in terms of intergalactic space, which is pretty far indeed.
While "The Rise of Darth Vader" mentions intergalactic hyperdrive-units, there's no mention of such in the movies.
Likewise, Star Wars hyperlanes are constructed, not due to their ship-speeds. In Star Trek, they plot courses and go, they don't need to access a conduit.
So the Star Trek cop out is basically "zomg the scenario wouldn't even take place!"
Transwarp drive was stated in the STIII novel to have already reached another galaxy; however if the Empire encountered the Defiant, then they'd have no problem capturing it and all of its data.
Except that transwarp has not been shown to be as fast or reliable than hyperdrive, nor has the Federation mass produced them.


The invading Empire-ships would contain such a map, and the Vulcan mind-meld could supply everything the crew knew.
Which assumes that said crew could somehow capture a Star Wars ship.
In contrast, the Empire would have no space-lanes in our galaxy, and would be crippled once they got here since they have no warp-drive and no space-lanes.
More misconceptions; hyperdrives do not need hyperlanes to be used, although hyperlanes do make hyperdrive faster and more reliable.

Finally, in ANH Han Solo brags that he's been from one side of the galaxy, to the other; this woudn't be a big deal if it only took a few hours.
Except that Han Solo didn't brag about it, so you're making things up.

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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Khas » Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:25 am

Okay, you are just lying on so many of these points, it's not even funny. First of all, you're making the assumption that city-worlds are common in SW. They're not. There was only Coruscant, Christophsis, Nar Shaddaa, and Taris. And Taris still had it's oceans. Naboo and Corellia are considered normal worlds in SW, and both of them have populations less than that of modern-day Earth. You saw what Naboo's capital was like. It looked like Rennaissance Italy. Corellia's population is only 3 billion, as opposed to Earth's nearly 7 billion. As for the transwarp drive not working in ST III, what part of Scotty sabotaging it don't you get?

As for the bombardment of Taris, yeah, REAL IMPRESSIVE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIM0ReXhenc

Also, when the fuck have we seen blasters blast big holes in concrete? We've seen them blast apart battle droids, when those same blasters have the overall effect of a musket on a human. All this proves is that battle droids have a shitty design.

Also, you REALLY need to watch the Senate scenes again. That room is nowhere as big as you say it is.

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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:55 am

Okay, I think it is clear for all, that StarWarsStarTrek has no clue about what he is talking.

He is confusing concepts like narrator, narrative point of view and narrative voice.

A narrator is, within any story (literary work, movie, play, verbal account, etc.), the person who tells the story to the audience.

The Narrative point of view (also point-of-view or viewpoint) describes from which grammatical person's perspective the story is perceived.
        • There is the first-person view, the second-person view, the third-person view and the alternating person view.

          The Third-person narration provides the greatest flexibility to the author and thus is the most commonly used narrative mode in literature. In the third-person narrative mode, each and every character is referred to by the narrator as "he", "she", "it", or "they", but never as "I" or "we" (first-person), or "you" (second-person). In third-person narrative, it is necessary that the narrator be merely an unspecified entity or uninvolved person that conveys the story, but not a character of any kind within the story being told. Third-person singular (he/she) is overwhelmingly the most common type of third-person narrative, although there have been successful uses of the third-person plural (they), as in Maxine Swann's short story "Flower Children". Even more common, however, is to see singular and plural used together in one story, at different times, depending upon the number of people being referred to at a given moment in the plot. Sometimes in third-person narratives, a character would refer to himself in the third-person e.g., "(Character name) would like to come with you".

          The third-person modes are usually categorized along two axes:
          • The first is the subjectivity/objectivity axis, with "subjective" narration describing one or more character's feelings and thoughts, while "objective" narration does not describe the feelings or thoughts of any characters.
          • The second axis is between "omniscient" and "limited", a distinction that refers to the knowledge available to the narrator. An omniscient narrator has omniscient knowledge of time, people, places and events; a limited narrator, in contrast, may know absolutely everything about a single character and every piece of knowledge in that character's mind, but it is "limited" to that character - that is, it cannot describe things unknown to the focal character.
The narrative voice describes how the story is conveyed (for example, by "viewing" a character's thought processes, by reading a letter written for someone, by a retelling of a character's experiences, etc.).
        • There are Stream-of-consciousness voices, Character voices, Epistolary voice and of course Third-person voices.

          The third-person voices are narrative-voice techniques employed solely under the category of the third-person view.

          There are the subjective third-person, the objective third-person, and the omniscient third-person.

          Historically, the third-person omniscient perspective has been the most commonly used; it is seen in countless classic novels, including works by Jane Austen, Leo Tolstoy, Charles Dickens, and George Eliot. This is a tale told from the point of view of a storyteller who plays no part in the story but knows all the facts, including the characters' thoughts. It sometimes even takes a subjective approach. One advantage of omniscience is that this mode enhances the sense of objective reliability (i.e. truthfulness) of the plot. The third-person omniscient narrator is the least capable of being unreliable - although the omniscient narrator can have its own personality, offering judgments and opinions on the behavior of the characters.

          In addition to reinforcing the sense of the narrator as reliable (and thus of the story as true), the main advantage of this mode is that it is eminently suited to telling huge, sweeping, epic stories, and/or complicated stories involving numerous characters. The disadvantage of this mode is that it can create more distance between the audience and the story, and that - when used in conjunction with a sweeping, epic "cast of thousands" story - characterization is more limited, which can reduce the reader's identification with or attachment to the characters. A classic example of both the advantages and disadvantages of this mode is J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings novel. However, as demonstrated by Isabel Allende's The House of the Spirits, this mode can capture huge sweeping stories (such as the political history of Chile, a major element of the novel) while also maintaining the reader's intimacy with certain key characters. Ann Patchett's Bel Canto also illustrates how this mode can be used to tell a complicated story involving dozens of characters while maintaining intimacy with the key characters.

          Some make the distinction between the third-person omniscient and the universal omniscient, the difference being that in universal omniscient, the narrator reveals information that the characters do not have. This is also called "Little Did He Know" writing, as in, "Little did he know he'd be dead by morning." Usually, the universal omniscient enforces the idea of the narrator being unconnected to the events of the story.

          Some more modern examples are Lemony Snicket, James Eugene Robinson in his novel, The Flower of Grass, and Philip Pullman. In some unusual cases, the reliability and impartiality of the narrator may in fact be as suspect as in the third person limited.
As you can see, there is a difference between a narrative point of view and a narrative voice.

But StarWarsStarTrek is lumping everything together. He thinks that the narrator is a limited third person narrator who jumps from person to person and knows always what the focal person knows and thinks.

But that is nonsense.

And that is obviously if you read through the excerpt I have quouted earlier. The narrator even describes things where no one is:
        • The rest of the assembled soldiers were dismissed by the officer. On board the freighter, a last lone figure left off examining the space beneath the cockpit consoles and ran to join his comrades. He was anxious to be off this ghost ship and back in the comfortable surroundings of the barracks. His heavy footsteps echoed through the once more empty freighter.
          Below, the muffled sounds of the officer giving final orders faded, leaving the interior in complete quiet. The quivering of a portion of the floor was the only movement on board.
          Abruptly the quivering became a sharp upheaval. Two metal panels popped upward, followed by a pair of tousled heads. Han Solo and Luke looked around quickly, then managed to relax a little when it became clear that the ship was as empty as it sounded.
That's clearly an objective describtion of what happened. Nobody was there to see it. And notice that the narrator describes our heroes from a third person view from inside the ship but out of the compartments in which our heroes were hiding.

There are enough other examples in the novelization, in which the narrator describes things from a perspective, where no one is on which he could be focused as a multiple third person narrator (That is a limited third-person, who can only describe what is known, seen, thought, or judged from a single character's perspective at a time, but can change that point of view character many times during the piece).
        • It was a vast, shining globe and it cast a light of lambent topaz into space - but it was not a sun. Thus, the planet had fooled men for a long time. Not until entering close orbit around it did its discoverers realize that this was a world in a binary system and not a third sun itself.
          At first it seemed certain nothing could exist on such a planet, least of all humans. Yet both massive G1 and G2 stars orbited a common center with peculiar regularity, and Tatooine circled them far enough out to permit the development of a rather stable, if exquisitely hot, climate. Mostly this was a dry desert of a world, whose unusual starlike yellow glow was the result of double sunlight striking sodium-rich sands and flats. That same sunlight suddenly shone on the thin skin of a metallic shape falling crazily toward the atmosphere.

          The erratic course the galactic cruiser was traveling was intentional, not the product of injury but of a desperate desire to avoid it. Long streaks of intense energy slid close past its hull, a multihued storm of destruction like a school of rainbow remoras fighting to attach themselves to a larger, unwilling host.
          One of those probing, questing beams succeeded in touching the fleeing ship, striking its principal solar fin. Gemlike fragments of metal and plastic erupted into space as the end of the fin disintegrated. The vessel seemed to shudder.
          The source of those multiple energy beams suddenly hove into view - a lumbering Imperial cruiser, its massive outline bristling cactuslike with dozens of heavy weapons emplacements. Light ceased arching from those spines now as the cruiser moved in close.
          Intermittent explosions and flashes of light could be seen in those portions of the smaller ship which had taken hits. In the absolute cold of space, the cruiser snuggled up alongside its wounded prey.
That's an objective description of what happened. There is no one, whose point of view the narrator could have taken.

The same here:
        • IT was an old settlers' saying that you could burn your eyes out faster by staring straight and hard at the sun-scorched flatlands of Tatooine than by looking directly at its two huge suns themselves, so powerful was the penetrating glare reflected from those endless wastes. Despite the glare, life could and did exist in the flatlands formed by long-evaporated seabeds. One thing made it possible: the reintroduction of water.
          For human purposes, however, the water of Tatooine was only marginally accessible. The atmosphere yielded its moisture with reluctance. It had to be coaxed down out of the hard blue sky -coaxed, forced, yanked down to the parched surface.
          Two figures whose concern was obtaining that moisture were standing on a slight rise of one of those inhospitable flats. One of the pair was stiff and metallic - a sand-pitted vaporator sunk securely through sand and into deeper rock. The figure next to it was a good deal more animated, though no less sunweathered.
          Luke Skywalker was twice the age of the ten-year-old vaporator, but much less secure. At the moment he was swearing softly at a recalcitrant valve adjuster on the temperamental device. From time to time he resorted to some unsubtle pounding in place of using the appropriate tool. Neither method worked very well. Luke was sure that the lubricants used on the vaporators went out of their way to attract sand, beckoning seductively to small abrasive particles with an oily gleam. He wiped sweat from his forehead and leaned back for a moment. The most prepossessing thing about the young man was his name. A light breeze tugged at his shaggy hair and baggy work tunic as he regarded the device. No point in staying angry at it, he counseled himself. It's only an unintelligent machine.
There is no one who chould have watched Luke and the vaporator. But notice how the narrator describes that » Luke was sure hat the lubricants used on the vaporators went out of their way to attract sand, beckoning seductively to small abrasive particles with an oily gleam. « If there were another person, whose perspective the narrator could have taken, this person could not know Lukes thoughts. But the narrator did know them.

Therefore the narrator of the noveization » A New Hope « has to be an omniscient third person narrator.

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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:37 am

You do realize that the two forces were moving within a few hundred meters of each other, right? That's simply ridiculous to the extreme, and there is almost no justification for such a maneuver. Any space age fleet should not have to move within a km to hit a giant borg cube that wasn't trying to dodge/evade any of the attacks.
Actualy due to the shape of a borg cube staying reasonably close to a single side mean you only get incoming fire from that side, fighting at a distance and in a position the allows multpile sides to target and shoot you would be a bad idea.
ROFL what? This is your response? You do realize that a modern town would be more populated than ancient Rome, right?
Who cares about population we are talking about area, population increases due to high rises ect is irrelavant to the issue of area.


Based on glimpses of Taris from orbit, a city in Star Wars even back in the KOTOR era is the size of a continent. Based on modern day city:small town scalings a Star Wars small town would actually be larger than New York City. Instead, darkstar would rather use Mos Eisley, in the backwater Tatooine, as a figure for a small town in the context of Coruscant!
They refered to a small town, they did not make a provision ion regards to the said small town being on Coruscant and infact considering the writers intended audience we can say that he was refering to a contemporary small town so the reader would have a known referance point to go by.

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Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:12 am

I think the question of the town is a non sequitur for both sides.

Neither the one nor the other side can show, how large an average town in the Star Wars galaxy is.

Correct is, that there are large cities.

But ecumenopolises are the exception. Otherwise Ric Olie wouldn't have described the fact, that the entire planet (Coruscant) is one big city as if it were something special. It would be StarWarsStarTreks responsibility to prove that this is not the case because he would be the one to claim that such ecumenopolises are normal although only a few are mentioned in Star Wars. And it is still a fact that a few ecumenopolises are statistically irrelevant in a galaxy with millions of inhabited planets.

Furthermore an ecumenopolises ≠ the average city and the average city ≠ the average town and the average town ≠ a small town.

On the other side, as we don't know, how big the average town is in the Star Wars galaxy, we do not know, what is considered small. A few samples are statistically irrelevant in a galaxy with millions of inhabited planets. But they are showing that a small town does not have to be bigger than what we on Earth would consider a small town. Otherwise such towns wouldn't be called towns but villages.

Insofar one shouldn't use the quote, that a turbo laser can destroy a small town, to calculate its strength. The wuote is too vague and it's going nowhere.

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