Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

[Mr. Oragahn]

Sarli even suggested that a derivation of this knowledge would explain the mass lightening, in order to explain the apparently absurd fuel consumption figures from the ICS, in comparison to the fuel cell figures Sarli used. Well, something like that, you know.

And l33telboi should really post the reference about fighters (X-wings?) achieving extreme linear acceleration through the use of some MLT as well.

[Lucky]

Which brings us back to my original point:
SW has shown "gravity-affecting" technology, or "gravity-imitating", but they have certain knowledge on gravity and how to "fake" it, or even affect it to some point, so they are not as ignorant as KSW depicted them to be...

Maybe this conversation has just been going on for too long, but I only recall talking about repulor lifts not being gravity based.

Gravity sensors as I understand it are rare, and big.

Gravity well projectors are also big, but do they even match a planet's mass shadow?

[Jedi Master Spock]

I’m not sure what you mean: it’s essential to FTL (warp) drive., while there’s nothing inconsistent with transporter-beams.

Both FTL drives and transporter beams as presented are flatly impossible according to modern understandings of physics. Alcubierre drive, for example, requires more energy than SW or ST ships throw around.

Of course, though it’s omnirectional

"Omnidirectional" and "vector quantity" are mutually incompatible.

It’s demonstrated everywhere in their tech: Luke’s speeder, the cars on Coruscant, the troop-transports in AotC, Yoda’s hover-disc, the scout-bikes on Endor etc. They can rise a ways above the ground, and move vertically, but any higher requires engaging the ion-thrusters, just like Jango Fett’s jetpack uses A-R thrust.

Actually, both Luke's air speeder (the T-16 which he flies around canyons to bull's eye womp rats) and Coruscant cars (which fly klicks off the distant ground) behave wholly unlike how you're claiming they behave.

So is very atom, which says everything.

No, not everything at all.

What you're wanting to describe is magical "action at a distance." Basically the creation of an invisible extension of matter/energy that acts like a stick with a missing middle. And that doesn't really fit anything in particular.

I never said anything about a gravity-well: I said the planet itself, i.e. pushing directly against solid ground. The fact that repulsors only operate in the vicinity of a planet, indicates that they are EM-based.

Unfortunately, the ANH novelization does talk about gravity wells. Not pushing off of planetary surfaces.

Simplicity is relative to the number of independent variables between alternatives: ergo it is the simplest explanation, since it has fewest.

Except it doesn't. You haven't even fit the evidence yet.

Is there a G-canon example of ships lifting that high with repulsors? Even the AotC troop-transports have their ion-engines visibly engaged at takeoff, when shown transporting the clones at the end.

Where are the crackling discharges of ion streams interacting with a neutral atmosphere?

Just because the little bit at the end is glowing doesn't mean it's moving on ion thrust, sorry. And as for your request, see the Death Star (visual) or ANH novelization (descriptive) or, for that matter, watch fighters in space "banking" using S-foils and accelerating perpendicular to their exhaust vents - while in a vacuum.

Again, this confuses simple magnetism, with electromagnetism used by atoms to give their solid properties: just like confusing electrons with simple electricity.

You have three basic choices:

Magnetic field, which if changing produces an electric field;
Electric field, which if changing produces a magnetic field;
Electromagnetic wave, which is what happens when they're both changing in counterpoint.

Mix and match however you like, you won't get spooky telekinetic force at a distance.

Every place in the universe shares the same physics. SW says that it takes place in a faraway galaxy: that implies that it’s in the same universe. Ergo, it has the same physics.

Which implies that coming up with two remarkably different explanations for the same unexplained technologies violates Occam's Razor.

Neither. The simplest explanation is that while ST has mastered the use of gravitational energy, while SW is still stuck with EM-based, despite having advanced applications thereof.
Likewise, SW has tractor-beams, but no deflectors: in TESB, for example, the ISD is shown shooting the the asteroids to keep them from hitting the ship.
This fits well with EM-based tech, since it’s like attaching a cable to something: i.e. they can pull it, but not push it (though they can push against something the solid ground of a planet at close distance). In contrast, ST has both tractors and deflectors, indicative of gravitational tech.

Or we could say that SW hasn't necessarily figured out how to make good general-purpose deflectors, because creating a uniform repulsive field from nothing is harder than redirecting existing fields or making a simple attractive pull. That would be a much simpler explanation than saying SW has EM tractors, ST has gravitational tractors, and ST has gravitational deflectors.

[Jedi Master Spock]

In the "A New Hope" novelization we see that Luke describes a system that he mistakes for be anti-gravity. Given the fact he is just a poor farm boy from the the back woods of space this is very understandable. Luke isn't going to be the most book smart person around.

ANH novelization on page 110:

"The mathematics of spacedrive were simple enough even to Luke. Antigrav could operate only when there was a sufficent gravity well to push against---like that of a planet---whereas supralight travel could only take place when a ship was clear of that same gravity. Hence the necessity for the dual-drive system on any extrasystem spacecraft."

On top of that you have repulsor lift craft falling when the bridge is suddenly removed from under neither them in "Trespass" and "Liberty on Ryloth".

Luke was trying to get into the Imperial Academy. His "farming" activities involve repairing droids and vehicles. Poor farm boy he may have been, but appealing to both his and the narrator's incompetence isn't convincing to me.

I'm not convinced that repulsorlifts and antigravity drive are quite the same thing, even if the distinction isn't always clear (there IS a distinction made between hovering and flying craft). There are references in early scripts to "magnetic" levitation, and the Death Star had a repulsive magnetic shield. Luke's T-16 Skyhopper can get a lot further off the ground than Luke's landspeeder ever is seen going.

The Death Stars showed minimal thrust capabilities, but were evidently fairly easy to prevent from crashing into a planet in spite of being quite high up.

[Lucky]

Luke was trying to get into the Imperial Academy. His "farming" activities involve repairing droids and vehicles. Poor farm boy he may have been, but appealing to both his and the narrator's incompetence isn't convincing to me.

You wouldn't happen to know exactly what the Imperial Academy is would you, and what is taught there? I thought Luke wanted to be a fighter pilot?

I have been trained to fix things like droids and vehicles. You don't need to know any theory behind how the stuff works, and since we don't see Luke fix stuff he may have just been watching the droids do it.

The quote by the narrator is merely stating what luke knows, or thinks he knows. for example it shouldn't be very hard to find reasonably well educated people who "know" maglev systems are anti-gravity, and the quote certainly does not describe anti-gravity.

I seem to recall the Falcon's repulor lifts being used to set off land mines. In one of the young jedi novels.

I'm not convinced that repulsorlifts and antigravity drive are quite the same thing, even if the distinction isn't always clear (there IS a distinction made between hovering and flying craft). There are references in early scripts to "magnetic" levitation, and the Death Star had a repulsive magnetic shield. Luke's T-16 Skyhopper can get a lot further off the ground than Luke's landspeeder ever is seen going.

The system may differ depending on the needs of the craft. It would only make sense to me that a craft that needs to break orbit will have a different(if only slightly) system then a craft meant to only go a few feet off the ground.

The Death Stars showed minimal thrust capabilities, but were evidently fairly easy to prevent from crashing into a planet in spite of being quite high up.

The Death Star does generate a stupidly powerful magnetic field to the point the X-wings were effected by it as the entered it. It might have something to do with it's propulsion system.

[Praeothmin]

I have been trained to fix things like droids and vehicles. You don't need to know any theory behind how the stuff works

If you want to be any good at it?
Yes, you need very much to understand at least the basics of hoe and why the things you fix work, or else you'll wind up making loads of mistakes anyone with a minimum knowledge of the theories will notice.
For example, I used to work on the manufacturing floor at the company I'm at, and since I had an electronic's degree, understanding the underpinnings of the products, I was much more efficient in making them, of fixing them, than the assemblers who knew nothing of electronics circuits and chips...
I knew why things worked, and what could prevent it from working properly...

[Who is like God arbour]

Hm, I have no idea how the main-board, the CPU, the primary storage, the graphic-card of my computer works.

But I'm able to assemble them.

And I do not see, why someone, who has studied physics and knows lots of electronics circuits and chips would be better to assemble a computer than me. The difference is, that he knows how the parts are working inside.



I think, Star Wars technology is very modular. That's why Anakin could assemble C3PO from spare parts. Much knowledge about how something works is not necessary.

[Lucky]

I have been trained to fix things like droids and vehicles. You don't need to know any theory behind how the stuff works

If you want to be any good at it?
Yes, you need very much to understand at least the basics of hoe and why the things you fix work, or else you'll wind up making loads of mistakes anyone with a minimum knowledge of the theories will notice.
For example, I used to work on the manufacturing floor at the company I'm at, and since I had an electronic's degree, understanding the underpinnings of the products, I was much more efficient in making them, of fixing them, than the assemblers who knew nothing of electronics circuits and chips...
I knew why things worked, and what could prevent it from working properly...

Theory helps to a certain degree, but is not needed to fix something. It's just a matter of finding the broken part, and putting in a new one. Luke is not designing the device after all.

[Jedi Master Spock]

You wouldn't happen to know exactly what the Imperial Academy is would you, and what is taught there? I thought Luke wanted to be a fighter pilot?

I believe he wanted to get off Tatooine, mainly.

But let's face it: Imperial Academy means "off world military college." Do you think it's easy to get into without boning up for the Imperial Achievement Test and taking night courses at Mos Eisley Community College?

Luke has more of a reason to know how antigrav drive works than you or I do.

I have been trained to fix things like droids and vehicles. You don't need to know any theory behind how the stuff works, and since we don't see Luke fix stuff he may have just been watching the droids do it.

LUKE: This R2 unit has a bad motivator. Look!
...
Artoo beeps a muffled reply. Luke seems to be lost in
thought as he runs his hand over the damaged fin of a small
two-man Skyhopper spaceship resting in a low hangar off the
garage. Finally Luke's frustrations get the better of him and
he slams a wrench across the workbench.
...
Artoo beeps in response. Luke unplugs Artoo and begins to
scrape several connectors on the robot's head with a chrome
pick. Threepio climbs out of the oil tub and begins wiping oil
from his bronze body.
...
OWEN: I told you to forget it. Your only concern is to prepare the new
droids for tomorrow. In the morning I want them on the south ridge
working out those condensers.
...
Luke leans over the back of the speeder and adjusts something
in the motor compartment.

Maybe that will jog a few memories loose?

The quote by the narrator is merely stating what luke knows, or thinks he knows. for example it shouldn't be very hard to find reasonably well educated people who "know" maglev systems are anti-gravity, and the quote certainly does not describe anti-gravity.

Try again:
The mathematics of spacedrive were simple enough even to Luke.
"This is the way things are. Even young Luke knows this stuff, and he's a hick who thought the Falcon wouldn't get off the ground."
Antigrav could operate only when there was a sufficient gravity well to push against---like that of a planet---whereas supralight travel could only take place when a ship was clear of that same gravity.
"Antigrav interacts with the gravity well itself to push the ship."

You don't get much more explicit than that. It's G-canonical and pretty direct. If you want to discard it, you need a good reason. "I think that it should be electromagnetic based on my speculation of how repulsors on some landspeeders, which may or may not be the same thing as antigrav drives on spaceships, work" just doesn't cut it for me.

I seem to recall the Falcon's repulor lifts being used to set off land mines. In one of the young jedi novels.

I'm not convinced that repulsorlifts and antigravity drive are quite the same thing, even if the distinction isn't always clear (there IS a distinction made between hovering and flying craft).

The system may differ depending on the needs of the craft. It would only make sense to me that a craft that needs to break orbit will have a different(if only slightly) system then a craft meant to only go a few feet off the ground.

And I'm saying its not necessarily the same system at all.

The Death Star does generate a stupidly powerful magnetic field to the point the X-wings were effected by it as the entered it. It might have something to do with it's propulsion system.

Or it could be a defensive system. Seeing as it was basically a band of space-turbulence, and something that size would get cratered up pretty quickly in a rapidly expanding debris field, that would make a lot of sense as well. There are some major physics differences between the systems you're talking about and the ones I'm talking about.

Repulsors of the type on Luke's landspeeder or Anakin's podracer don't actually do much (if any) work - all they do is keep the craft off the ground. There are jet engines on them to actually cause them to accelerate. A deflecting field that bends the path of debris doesn't actually do work (provided the deflection doesn't alter velocity, only direction.) An antigrav drive that lifts you to the hyper limit has to do a great deal of work.

[Praeothmin]

WILGA and Lucky, assembling a PC and repairing one are two very different things.

Example:
My electronics taining allowed me to repair my PC when it let out on me.
It would not boot up, but when I pressed the power button, I could hear the power supply fan start, which meant the power supply was likely fine.
I opened the casing, and looked at the motherboard, which I suspected.
I found two busted up capacitors.
I knew how to replace them, but anyone capable of soldering electronics can do this too.
Problem:
I had to find the equivalent types of capacitor, but since by motherboard was for an Athlon chip, the capacitors were not standard types.
I knew how to create the equivalent capacitance by connecting capacitors in parralel, and my great soldering skills allowed me to do so in the confined space I had on my motherboard.
Had I not known about the theory behind equivalent capacitance, I would never have been able to repair my motherboard.
If you want to be good at repairing things complicated things like Droids/PCs, you better know a bit about the theory of operation...

[Mike DiCenso]

A couple things here. The first is a nit I have about the part of Luke going to the Academy is that the ANH novelization on pages 27-29 indicates he's not applying to go to the Imperial Military Academy, but something else. The whole idea that Biggs went to the Imperial Academy is one of those EU inventions that is in complete contradiction to the higher G-canon material. Biggs even says he's not going to wait for the Empire to conscript him, implying very strongly that he's not in Imperial military service and the fact that he's going to be First Mate on the Rand Ecliptic as opposed to the EU making him into a Tie fighter pilot and so on. I believe we've dealt with the subject in another thread, but I thought I'd mention this again.

Second, on the subject of making repairs in the SW universe, Luke did a very competent job of repairing Threepio's arm that had been torn off during his Sand Person induced fall. Given the wires and gears hap-hazardly hanging out of the arm and shoulder, I'd say that Luke had to have more than a simple passing knowlege of assembly to make those repairs, thus putting them more on the level of what Praeothmin is talking about for the repair he had to carry out on his computer.
-Mike

[Lucky]

I believe he wanted to get off Tatooine, mainly.

Well we certainly agree on this.

But let's face it: Imperial Academy means "off world military college." Do you think it's easy to get into without boning up for the Imperial Achievement Test and taking night courses at Mos Eisley Community College?

Luke has more of a reason to know how antigrav drive works than you or I do.

This is a setting where Storm Troopers are considered elite troops. Those were the Empoer's best men fighting Ewoks. >_<

LUKE: This R2 unit has a bad motivator. Look!
...
Artoo beeps a muffled reply. Luke seems to be lost in
thought as he runs his hand over the damaged fin of a small
two-man Skyhopper spaceship resting in a low hangar off the
garage. Finally Luke's frustrations get the better of him and
he slams a wrench across the workbench.
...
Artoo beeps in response. Luke unplugs Artoo and begins to
scrape several connectors on the robot's head with a chrome
pick. Threepio climbs out of the oil tub and begins wiping oil
from his bronze body.
...
OWEN: I told you to forget it. Your only concern is to prepare the new
droids for tomorrow. In the morning I want them on the south ridge
working out those condensers.
...
Luke leans over the back of the speeder and adjusts something
in the motor compartment.

Maybe that will jog a few memories loose?

It proves practical experience, but not all of those are electronics repair, and not all of them sound as if Luke is able to do more then the basics well.

Try again:
The mathematics of spacedrive were simple enough even to Luke.
"This is the way things are. Even young Luke knows this stuff, and he's a hick who thought the Falcon wouldn't get off the ground."
Antigrav could operate only when there was a sufficient gravity well to push against---like that of a planet---whereas supralight travel could only take place when a ship was clear of that same gravity.
"Antigrav interacts with the gravity well itself to push the ship."

You don't get much more explicit than that. It's G-canonical and pretty direct. If you want to discard it, you need a good reason. "I think that it should be electromagnetic based on my speculation of how repulsors on some landspeeders, which may or may not be the same thing as antigrav drives on spaceships, work" just doesn't cut it for me.

The narrator isn't describing AG as I have ever heard it described before, and Electromagnetic systems match better.

There was a rather interesting EM drive talked about last night on American Paranormal.

And I'm saying its not necessarily the same system at all.

The only anti-gravity thingies I recall ever being talked about are Repulsors.

Or it could be a defensive system. Seeing as it was basically a band of space-turbulence, and something that size would get cratered up pretty quickly in a rapidly expanding debris field, that would make a lot of sense as well. There are some major physics differences between the systems you're talking about and the ones I'm talking about.

Magnetic fields do a great job reflecting blaster bolts after all, but why does the feild have to have only one purpose?

Repulsors of the type on Luke's landspeeder or Anakin's podracer don't actually do much (if any) work - all they do is keep the craft off the ground. There are jet engines on them to actually cause them to accelerate. A deflecting field that bends the path of debris doesn't actually do work (provided the deflection doesn't alter velocity, only direction.) An antigrav drive that lifts you to the hyper limit has to do a great deal of work.

Don't we see speeders with no obvious propulsion systems?

WILGA and Lucky, assembling a PC and repairing one are two very different things.

Example:
My electronics taining allowed me to repair my PC when it let out on me.
It would not boot up, but when I pressed the power button, I could hear the power supply fan start, which meant the power supply was likely fine.
I opened the casing, and looked at the motherboard, which I suspected.
I found two busted up capacitors.
I knew how to replace them, but anyone capable of soldering electronics can do this too.
Problem:
I had to find the equivalent types of capacitor, but since by motherboard was for an Athlon chip, the capacitors were not standard types.
I knew how to create the equivalent capacitance by connecting capacitors in parralel, and my great soldering skills allowed me to do so in the confined space I had on my motherboard.
Had I not known about the theory behind equivalent capacitance, I would never have been able to repair my motherboard.
If you want to be good at repairing things complicated things like Droids/PCs, you better know a bit about the theory of operation...

That does not requirer the knowledge on theory. You don't need to know the why to know that will work, or do that.

Second, on the subject of making repairs in the SW universe, Luke did a very competent job of repairing Threepio's arm that had been torn off during his Sand Person induced fall. Given the wires and gears hap-hazardly hanging out of the arm and shoulder, I'd say that Luke had to have more than a simple passing knowlege of assembly to make those repairs, thus putting them more on the level of what Praeothmin is talking about for the repair he had to carry out on his computer.
-Mike

If the wires are color coded then it is just a matter of matching the colors. We know droids are plug and play.

[Mike DiCenso]

If the wires are color coded then it is just a matter of matching the colors. We know droids are plug and play.

Take a good look again here at this video clip starting at 1:55, then later at 2:26, and tell me that damage is merely "plug and play" and "color coded" repair work.
-Mike

[Lucky]

If the wires are color coded then it is just a matter of matching the colors. We know droids are plug and play.

Take a good look again here at this video clip starting at 1:55, then later at 2:26, and tell me that damage is merely "plug and play" and "color coded" repair work.
-Mike

The problem is C3PO's arm is fixed to well. It looks as if it was never damaged in the first place.

Luke is strong in the force.

[Praeothmin]

That does not requirer the knowledge on theory. You don't need to know the why to know that will work, or do that.

Yes it does.
If you have no knowledge of what the capacitors do, you're likely to replace them with any fitting capacitors, without knowing how resistant they need to be, or that without the same capacitance level, your CPU power regulator will do jack shit, and most likely burn out your CPU, or you wouldn't know that you can create equivalence capacitance using parallel capacitors, and you certainly wouldn't know how to use the formula to find out which capacitors you may use in parallel...
So yes, you very, very much need to know at least the basic theory behind the workings of the circuit you are repairing...