Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

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KirkSkyWalker
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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by KirkSkyWalker » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:02 am

Praeothmin wrote:
SarahStar wrote:You can't just say "deflector technology," which thus automatically gives them everything that Star Trek deflectors have. If you can't cite a spefic SW example of a deflector-beam being used, then you have to assume they don't have it.
I'm not giving them anything they don't have.
They have Deflector Shields, which from the name implies deflector technology.
They probably don't have the beam, because as you said we never have a specific example of a Deflector Beam, but the reasons why they don't have them could just as well be because they never felt it was necessary to devellop the concept..
There's no indication that they have the means.

KirkSkywalker wrote:
Those "deflector-shields" also seem to be electromagnetic in nature, not subspace-based like ST's. For example when the falcon departs Tatooine, Han says "angle the deflector shields," which implies that they require "angling" when gravity-based ones wouldn't.
And because thay can be angled, they cannot be graviton based?
Yup. Graviton-based shields bend space itself, which precludes "angling" as such.
ST Deflectors also need to be angled, by the way.
They are angled in front of the craft to deflect things out of the path of the ships.
Those are your words.-- stick to canon terminology, otherwise you're clealry equivocating very different things.

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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by Lucky » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:03 am

WILGA wrote:I have a question:

If we assume that the by a ship created artificial gravity is real gravitation and not something that only simulates the effects of it, and this gravity is as strong as the gravity of a planet, why has a ship in orbit of a planet not detrimental effects on this planet?

Shouldn't it be as if there were another planet in the orbit?

The moon has only 0.0123 of Earths mass and is more than 350.000 km away from Earth. But the moon still is responsible for tide on Earth.

Now imagine what would happen if an object, that has the gravity of an earth-like planet, suddenly appears a few hundred kilometers above the surface of Earth.
In Star Trek they have extremely good control over gravity to the point they can literally bounce some graviton off the main deflector dish, but I don't see anything similar in Star wars.

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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by Lucky » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:50 am

Praeothmin wrote:
Lucky wrote:How would Ion Lifter would appear different from a Star Wars Repulsor lift?
In the case of Yoda's chair, there doesn't seem to be any gaz coming out from under it, and it can move slowly sideways as well as stay at the same height, so clearly any type of "traditional" propulsion seems out of the question...
Why should we see gas coming out the bottom?

Why would movement be something maglev, and ion lifts could not do?

How would you even know it the chair was the thing with the propulsion system anyway? Yoda is a telekinetic after all.

You did know repulsor lift vehicles fall like real world wheeled vehicles if they are driven off cliffs?

__________

What makes you so sure Star Wars shields are gravity based, and not magnetic/plasma fields?

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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by KirkSkyWalker » Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:57 am

Hover-technology is in a lot of SW vehicles; Clieg Lars's hover-chair, Yoda's platform, Luke's speeder, the Scout-bikes on Endor which couldn't go higher than 10 feet off the ground, the Troop-transport vessels shown at the end of AotC, etc.

To have an ion-drive, you need ions shooting out the bottom at super-high speeds and temperatures: that's how ion-drive works, i.e. super-accelerated (and super-heated)ions shoot out near lightspeed, moving so fast that even though they're fairly negligible in mass, they push the ship forward at thousands of kph.
However near the ground, that would do a lot of damage and consume a lot of fuel just to keep an object hovering; in contrast, repulsor-maglev tech is more like a wheel, i.e. it doesn't require energy simply to keep something hovering a certain distance above the ground, but at the same time it allows horizontal movement (which is why the wheel was the greatest invention to date).

As for the notion of Yoda levitating the platform: it seems that Force-users can't completely levitate themselves, otherwise we'd see Obi-wan flying like Superman. As it is, they can't even seem to fall slowly enough to save themselves, if the drop is high enough; 50 feet or so seems the most they can safely fall without going ka-splat.

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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:21 am

KirkSkywalker wrote:Hover-technology is in a lot of SW vehicles; Clieg Lars's hover-chair, Yoda's platform, Luke's speeder, the Scout-bikes on Endor which couldn't go higher than 10 feet off the ground, the Troop-transport vessels shown at the end of AotC, etc.
I've heard even Lucas uses one.
To have an ion-drive, you need ions shooting out the bottom at super-high speeds and temperatures: that's how ion-drive works, i.e. super-accelerated (and super-heated)ions shoot out near lightspeed, moving so fast that even though they're fairly negligible in mass, they push the ship forward at thousands of kph.
However near the ground, that would do a lot of damage and consume a lot of fuel just to keep an object hovering; in contrast, repulsor-maglev tech is more like a wheel, i.e. it doesn't require energy simply to keep something hovering a certain distance above the ground, but at the same time it allows horizontal movement (which is why the wheel was the greatest invention to date).

As for the notion of Yoda levitating the platform: it seems that Force-users can't completely levitate themselves, otherwise we'd see Obi-wan flying like Superman. As it is, they can't even seem to fall slowly enough to save themselves, if the drop is high enough; 50 feet or so seems the most they can safely fall without going ka-splat.
Mm... Vader glided in TESB. Luke made a jump impressive enough so you'd hear the thump two seconds later.
Obi-Wan survived the great splash in ROTS, and Yoda equally did survive his fall in the Senate, which was well greater than 50 feet.
Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan did a couple of such controlled falls in TPM, although they weren't considerably high (that's where your 50 feet is mostly correct).
The mad jumps are in AOTC. Anakin pulls some absolutely crazy stunts, but then he's the Chosen One, so it's likely biased.
Globally, they can slow their fall, but they don't seem to counter it to the point of levitating and even rising.
That said, what we saw came from high profile Sith/Jedi. Your average one may be not so talented in self-telekinesis.
The closest thing to a rise Jedi do is the Force jump, but they still need to jump like anyone would. We see that a lot in TPM.
Eventually, the best rise you see is Obi-Wan pulling himself out of the pit, with the strength of his arms, you seem him go up like if he kept the speed of his initial impulse. It still took him some great efforts, but at the same time he probably was exhausted. It seems that they negate gravity to some point, and probably for a limited amount of time.

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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:10 pm

KirkSkywalker wrote:There's no indication that they have the means.
Prove it.
There's no indication that they don't have the mean, only that they didn't devellop the technology...
There's a lot of modern day technology we do not devellop, because it is too expensive, to impractical, too dangerous, but we still have the knowledge to do so.
They have Deflector Shields, so they know deflection technology, period...
Graviton-based shields bend space itself, which precludes "angling" as such.
Which you will immediately prove by showing us how the "gravtion-based" shields work, and how their space-bending precludes any "angling".
And in ST, the Deflector Shield comes from the Deflector dish, located at the front of the ship.
Combat shields, while making use of the Deflector Shield, do not originate from the dish, since there are many shield-emitters on ST ships...


And Lucky?
SW EU (C-Canon) says they have anti-grav technology, G-Canon (movies) and T-Canon (shows) show us anti-grav technology, so it really doesn't matter whether you think it "could be someting else".
Unless you can prove the technology SW calls anti-grav has nothing to do with gravity, it does, and it means SW has gravity-based technology...

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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by Lucky » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:25 am

Praeothmin wrote:
And Lucky?
SW EU (C-Canon) says they have anti-grav technology, G-Canon (movies) and T-Canon (shows) show us anti-grav technology, so it really doesn't matter whether you think it "could be someting else".
Unless you can prove the technology SW calls anti-grav has nothing to do with gravity, it does, and it means SW has gravity-based technology...
G canon seems to imply that speeders can't just fly around as they please from what we see in ROTJ. There is no G canon source that I know of, that says repulsor lifts are anti gravity.

T shows speeders fall if they go over a cliff, or the bridge they are on is turned off.

I really don't care what C canon has to say in the matter.

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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:00 pm

Lucky wrote: G canon seems to imply that speeders can't just fly around as they please from what we see in ROTJ. There is no G canon source that I know of, that says repulsor lifts are anti gravity.

T shows speeders fall if they go over a cliff, or the bridge they are on is turned off.

I really don't care what C canon has to say in the matter.
What do you mean by the RotJ example?
They fly around just fine, it seems...

And even if they fall going over a cliff, it can be related to a power of the anti-grav unit, just like a small, handheld rocket would never have the trust necessary to achieve break-away speeds, while the immensely more powerful Shuttle thrusters do...

And it doesn't matter whether you care what C-canon says or not, it's there, and shows anti-grav technology in a society that has artificial grav-plating...

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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by Lucky » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:32 am

Praeothmin wrote: What do you mean by the RotJ example?
They fly around just fine, it seems...
In ROTJ the speeder bikes seem limited to a certain height at which they can work. With an anti-gravity system I would think the higher you go the easier it is to stay up because there is less of a pull from the planet.
Praeothmin wrote: And even if they fall going over a cliff, it can be related to a power of the anti-grav unit, just like a small, handheld rocket would never have the trust necessary to achieve break-away speeds, while the immensely more powerful Shuttle thrusters do...
Anti-gravity and maglev would not fall if you drove off a cliff because the magnetic field and gravity well would not have grown stronger, or weaker.

You would fall if the system was pushing off the ground.
Praeothmin wrote: And it doesn't matter whether you care what C-canon says or not, it's there, and shows anti-grav technology in a society that has artificial grav-plating...
T canon says repulsors are not anti-gravity, and that means C canon is irrelevant. The only thing that can override T canon is G canon.

Provide the quotes from the novelizations of the movies, or concede.

_______

Do remember magnetic fiels do a very good job in G canon of deflecting blaster bolts.
Last edited by Lucky on Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by Lucky » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:37 am

KirkSkywalker wrote:Hover-technology is in a lot of SW vehicles; Clieg Lars's hover-chair, Yoda's platform, Luke's speeder, the Scout-bikes on Endor which couldn't go higher than 10 feet off the ground, the Troop-transport vessels shown at the end of AotC, etc.

To have an ion-drive, you need ions shooting out the bottom at super-high speeds and temperatures: that's how ion-drive works, i.e. super-accelerated (and super-heated)ions shoot out near lightspeed, moving so fast that even though they're fairly negligible in mass, they push the ship forward at thousands of kph.
However near the ground, that would do a lot of damage and consume a lot of fuel just to keep an object hovering; in contrast, repulsor-maglev tech is more like a wheel, i.e. it doesn't require energy simply to keep something hovering a certain distance above the ground, but at the same time it allows horizontal movement (which is why the wheel was the greatest invention to date).

As for the notion of Yoda levitating the platform: it seems that Force-users can't completely levitate themselves, otherwise we'd see Obi-wan flying like Superman. As it is, they can't even seem to fall slowly enough to save themselves, if the drop is high enough; 50 feet or so seems the most they can safely fall without going ka-splat.
I think you might be confusing an ionocraft/ion lifter with an ion thruster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionocraft

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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by Praeothmin » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:06 pm

Lucky wrote:In ROTJ the speeder bikes seem limited to a certain height at which they can work. With an anti-gravity system I would think the higher you go the easier it is to stay up because there is less of a pull from the planet.
It depends on how it works.
If it works on "Graviton" deflection, as has been suggested, then the higher you go, the less Gravitons you have to deflect...
Anti-gravity and maglev would not fall if you drove off a cliff because the magnetic field and gravity well would not have grown stronger, or weaker.

You would fall if the system was pushing off the ground.
Prove it then.
We are currently unable to create Maglev technology that can simply push off the Earth's Magnetic field because it is far too weak, we need "rails" to make our Maglev work, and the vehicules thus created have a very limited range as far as how far away from the rails they can be...
T canon says repulsors are not anti-gravity, and that means C canon is irrelevant. The only thing that can override T canon is G canon.

Provide the quotes from the novelizations of the movies, or concede.
Nope, your interpretation of T-canon says that.
You have no provided direct quotes from the show stating it.

Provide the direct quote saying they are not true anti-gravity (contrary to C-canon), or conceed that the C-canon is right, and that SW does have gravity based technology...

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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by Lucky » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:03 pm

Lucky wrote:In ROTJ the speeder bikes seem limited to a certain height at which they can work. With an anti-gravity system I would think the higher you go the easier it is to stay up because there is less of a pull from the planet.
Praeothmin wrote: It depends on how it works.
If it works on "Graviton" deflection, as has been suggested, then the higher you go, the less Gravitons you have to deflect...
Clip from Clone Wars - Episode 21 "Liberty on Ryloth"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8JoKTphzFo
The speeder falls when the plasma bridge is turned off . The distance from the planet's surface did not change at all.

We see something similar in season one "Trespass" where speeder bikes fall when a ice bridge collapses under them.

In both cases neither bridge would have had a noticeable gravity or magnetic field.
Anti-gravity and maglev would not fall if you drove off a cliff because the magnetic field and gravity well would not have grown stronger, or weaker.

You would fall if the system was pushing off the ground.
Praeothmin wrote: Prove it then.
We are currently unable to create Maglev technology that can simply push off the Earth's Magnetic field because it is far too weak, we need "rails" to make our Maglev work, and the vehicules thus created have a very limited range as far as how far away from the rails they can be...
"Trespass" and "Liberty on Ryloth" support repulsors being systems that use thrust to lift an object.

Since when does it matter what we can do in the real world at this point in time when it comes to what can be done in a fictional universe?
T canon says repulsors are not anti-gravity, and that means C canon is irrelevant. The only thing that can override T canon is G canon.

Provide the quotes from the novelizations of the movies, or concede.
Praeothmin wrote: Nope, your interpretation of T-canon says that.
You have no provided direct quotes from the show stating it.
I have provided proof in this post.

Mike has provided proof G canon of Luke's poor education.

You have provided nothing, not even a link to a wiki.
Praeothmin wrote: Provide the direct quote saying they are not true anti-gravity (contrary to C-canon), or conceed that the C-canon is right, and that SW does have gravity based technology...
In the "A New Hope" novelization we see that Luke describes a system that he mistakes for be anti-gravity. Given the fact he is just a poor farm boy from the the back woods of space this is very understandable. Luke isn't going to be the most book smart person around.
Mike DiCenso wrote: ANH novelization on page 110:

"The mathematics of spacedrive were simple enough even to Luke. Antigrav could operate only when there was a sufficent gravity well to push against---like that of a planet---whereas supralight travel could only take place when a ship was clear of that same gravity. Hence the necessity for the dual-drive system on any extrasystem spacecraft."
On top of that you have repulsor lift craft falling when the bridge is suddenly removed from under neither them in "Trespass" and "Liberty on Ryloth".

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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:31 pm

Lucky, I agree that TCW seems to suggest a "thrust" engine instead of a true anti-gravity system...

But this still does not explain the gravity plates in ships, as seen in the G-canon movies...
Which shows at least "gravity-creating" technology, at the least...

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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by Lucky » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:01 am

Praeothmin wrote:Lucky, I agree that TCW seems to suggest a "thrust" engine instead of a true anti-gravity system...

But this still does not explain the gravity plates in ships, as seen in the G-canon movies...
Which shows at least "gravity-creating" technology, at the least...
I have never claimed Star Wars could not simulate gravity in some way, but we don't know how they create artificial gravity in Star Wars.

The Interdictor Cruiser would seem to point to certain limitations.

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Re: Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:36 pm

Which brings us back to my original point:
SW has shown "gravity-affecting" technology, or "gravity-imitating", but they have certain knowledge on gravity and how to "fake" it, or even affect it to some point, so they are not as ignorant as KSW depicted them to be...

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