Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

[Lucky]

The two weapons of the Jem'Hadar and the Mokra Order are not the same thing. The phased ion canons are still ion weaponary that damages the shields of a Federation starship.
-Mike

They would be ion weapons with an unknown technobabble component?

[KirkSkyWalker]

In the year 2268, not 1968; mind the context.

Hardly much of a difference. The term old style means that it's an out of date weapon that works very much like any nuclear weapon we have now in real life.

No, it means compared to the type they used in 2268.

Ok, 92 seconds-- not bad for the ship just having been nuked 300 yards from ground zero.

That's a minimum amount of time since there is a cut between the E-1701 being nuked, and the Romulans going all happy about it, then back to the E-1701, then back to the Romulans with possibly some extra time passing there. Had the Romulan commander not hesitated as soon the as the big E was nuked, and pressed an attack, he'd have won. Or had he simply Decius tossed in the brig and ordered his ship to go home, he'd also have won.

92 seconds of lead-time wouldn't make him home-free.

What part of "phased" did you not understand? The Jem H'dar also used phased polaron-beams to render UFP shields useless, but it's also clearly out of anything even close to of SW's league.

The two weapons of the Jem'Hadar and the Mokra Order are not the same thing. The phased ion canons are still ion weaponary that damages the shields of a Federation starship.
-Mike

[KirkSkyWalker]

In the year 2268, not 1968; mind the context.

Hardly much of a difference. The term old style means that it's an out of date weapon that works very much like any nuclear weapon we have now in real life.

No, it means old compared to the type they used in 2268.

Ok, 92 seconds-- not bad for the ship just having been nuked 300 yards from ground zero.

That's a minimum amount of time since there is a cut between the E-1701 being nuked, and the Romulans going all happy about it, then back to the E-1701, then back to the Romulans with possibly some extra time passing there. Had the Romulan commander not hesitated as soon the as the big E was nuked, and pressed an attack, he'd have won. Or had he simply Decius tossed in the brig and ordered his ship to go home, he'd also have won.

92 seconds of lead-time wouldn't make him home-free, their power was sheer impulse.

What part of "phased" did you not understand? The Jem H'dar also used phased polaron-beams to render UFP shields useless, but it's also clearly out of anything even close to of SW's league.

The two weapons of the Jem'Hadar and the Mokra Order are not the same thing. The phased ion canons are still ion weaponary that damages the shields of a Federation starship.
-Mike

But SW doesn't have phasing-technology, that's beyond warp.

[Praeothmin]

but it's also clearly out of anything even close to of SW's league.

And you conlcude that how?

They don't have anything like it.

SW has "Transporter Gates" from old civilizations, they have Disruptor weapons that are very similar to Phasers in their effects, they have gravity plating, anti-grav, Hyperdrive and a Galaxy spanning Holonet, like ST's Subspace Arrays.
They have Lightsabres, weapons that create solid energy fields that cut through any material, some easier then others, and when only ignited, they use no power.
They have the Metal-Crystal Phase Shifter, a superweapon capable of altering the molecular structure of metallic substances, a weapon that would be able to penetrate the shields of a starship and damage its hull, much like the Phased weapons of the Dominion...
Also, the Amban phase-pulse blaster, which was a phase-pulse blaster used around 0 ABY...

They do indeed seem to have phased weaponry...

[KirkSkyWalker]

SW has "Transporter Gates" from old civilizations, they have Disruptor weapons that are very similar to Phasers in their effects, they have gravity plating, anti-grav, Hyperdrive and a Galaxy spanning Holonet, like ST's Subspace Arrays.
They have Lightsabres, weapons that create solid energy fields that cut through any material, some easier then others, and when only ignited, they use no power.
They have the Metal-Crystal Phase Shifter, a superweapon capable of altering the molecular structure of metallic substances, a weapon that would be able to penetrate the shields of a starship and damage its hull, much like the Phased weapons of the Dominion...
Also, the Amban phase-pulse blaster, which was a phase-pulse blaster used around 0 ABY...

They do indeed seem to have phased weaponry...

Ok if you don't know by now that we're NOT talking about the EU, there's no hope your ever realizing it.

[Praeothmin]

Ok if you don't know by now that we're NOT talking about the EU, there's no hope your ever realizing it.

Ok, if you don't realize by now we're talking about SW, which includes the EU, there's no hope of you ever realizing it...

And from TCW, they also have cloaking devices on small ships, à la ST, which means they know how to use gravitons to bend signals and diffuse them as well...

[Who is like God arbour]

And from TCW, they also have cloaking devices on small ships, à la ST, which means they know how to use gravitons to bend signals and diffuse them as well...

To jump from » they also have cloaking devices « to » they know how to use gravitons to bend signals and diffuse them « is quite a leap.

A cloaking device does not have to use gravitons to bend signals and diffuse them.
There are other ways to render an object invisible, e.g. metamaterial cloaking, active camouflage or adaptive camouflage or plasma stealth.

The question is, how the in the TCW showed cloaking device worked.

[Praeothmin]

W.I.L.G.A, all these techniques can fool modern radars, but the movies and TCW shows us that, while SW sensors are not up to par with ST sensors, they are still better then radars...

From what I could tell, the cloak was pretty much like a ST cloak.
I'll try to find a link to a video tonight...

[Praeothmin]

Ok, I checked this threadhere, and it seems that the cloak isn't like ST cloaks...

But the Empire still has gravity plates, and anti-grav units, which means they DO know how to use "gravitons"...

[KirkSkyWalker]

Ok, I checked this threadhere, and it seems that the cloak isn't like ST cloaks...

But the Empire still has gravity plates, and anti-grav units, which means they DO know how to use "gravitons"...

Where's that shown in the G-canon?

Ok if you don't know by now that we're NOT talking about the EU, there's no hope your ever realizing it.

Ok, if you don't realize by now we're talking about SW, which includes the EU, there's no hope of you ever realizing it...

Because it isn't REAL, i.e. accurate; and so you aren't realizing, by definition, but fantasizing. SW doesn't include the EU in the on-screen universe-- the EU is a separate universe.

And from TCW, they also have cloaking devices on small ships, à la ST, which means they know how to use gravitons to bend signals and diffuse them as well...

Yeah yeah, and Anakin has a Padawan that looks like King Tut in TCW.
But not in the G-canon. Just ike Boba Fett is dead in the G-canon.

[Lucky]

Ok, I checked this threadhere, and it seems that the cloak isn't like ST cloaks...

But the Empire still has gravity plates, and anti-grav units, which means they DO know how to use "gravitons"...

Where's that shown in the G-canon?

I believe Praeothmin is referring to repulsor lifts, and the artificial gravity on ships, but I don't know where we are told how ships produce A.G., or how repulsor lifts work in Star Wars.

If you take T-canon then Star Wars cloaks don't hide magnetic fields well, and we never see a gravity sensor. All sensors seem to be based on sensing electromagnetic radiation and magnetic fields.

If you go down to C-canon then you have the Vong who where a threat more or less because the GFFA tech base is not very good at manipulating gravity, and big rare gravity sensors.

[KirkSkyWalker]

A "repulsor lift" would theoretically work just as well in space, as it would on a planet; since gravity from inertia, is the same as gravity from a planet. However all that we see in SW films for actual take-off, is ion-drive thrusters. The only real anti-gravity tech we see in the G-canon, is the little disc that Yoda floats on, Luke's speeder, the hover-bikes on Endor etc. and possibly the troop-transports carrying the Clones on Coruscant at the end of AotC-- i.e. nothing more than a few feet off the ground at most.

[Praeothmin]

And we see, in ships of all sizes, gravity plates where people can walk as if on planet with no difference, without the ship needing to gyrate in space to simulate gravity.
They know how to control gravitons, as clearly seen in G-canon... :)

[Who is like God arbour]

They know how to control gravitons, as clearly seen in G-canon... :)

That's again quite a leap.

They may know how to "create" gravitons as mankind knew how to "create" photons for a long time - even before it knew that there are such things like photons.

But as mankind didn't really knew that there are such things like photons and even now its ability to "control" photons is very limited, we can not simply assume, that they are able to "control" gravitons.

There are many people out there, who are claiming to have created a device that can either create gravity or anti-gravity. Among them are even "scientists" like Martin Tajmar or Eugene Podkletnov. Even if we assume that their experiments were successful and they had indeed created a kind of gravity or ant-gravity device, although then we would be able to create gravitation or anti-gravitation, as we are able to create light and darkness, we would not be able to "control" gravitons.

[Praeothmin]

They know how to control gravitons, as clearly seen in G-canon... :)

That's again quite a leap.

They may know how to "create" gravitons as mankind knew how to "create" photons for a long time - even before it knew that there are such things like photons.

But as mankind didn't really knew that there are such things like photons and even now its ability to "control" photons is very limited, we can not simply assume, that they are able to "control" gravitons.

There are many people out there, who are claiming to have created a device that can either create gravity or anti-gravity. Among them are even "scientists" like Martin Tajmar or Eugene Podkletnov. Even if we assume that their experiments were successful and they had indeed created a kind of gravity or ant-gravity device, although then we would be able to create gravitation or anti-gravitation, as we are able to create light and darkness, we would not be able to "control" gravitons.

Yoda's repulsor chair shows them negating gravity as well (it's certainly not a jet or thruster equipment, since it has no visible exaust), and gravity plates shows them creating, or simulating, gravity.
They have gravity sensors as well.
What more do you require?
How can you control things that much, measure it so precisely, but have no knowledge on how to manipulate it?