Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

[Mike DiCenso]

Could you please be more specific? The last time I saw "Mudd's Women" I was something like 4 years old, and I don't recall ever seeing "Final Mission".

Memory Alpha seems to make it appear Mudds ship was damaged at the time so it could not defend it's self, and in "Final Mission" Memory Alpha makes it appear we are dealing with super technobabble radiation. An unshielded ship should not be threatened by things like mundane radiation unless there is a hull breach, and a properly working trek ship should have no problems with mundane space rocks..

From "Final Mission":

RIKER: Then we'll have to take it ourselves. We'll use our deflectors clear a path through the asteroids.

LAFORGE: I don't like the idea of getting close enough to that barge to tow it. The radiation levels are so high we'd be risking the contamination of the entire crew.

RIKER: Do you have a better idea, Geordi?

LAFORGE: We could send over a construction module to attach thrusters to it. Then we could direct it through the asteroid belt from a safe distance.

The plans is to use the shields to clear a path through the field, the radiation is the danger because the barge will be inside the E-D's shields and so close to the ship. Later:

LAFORGE: I can't divert any more power to the shields. We're already hitting our maximum thermal limits. Only other choice is to bring some other fusion reactors online, but we're running at peak coolant pressure.

The sheer forces and other stresses stran the tractor beam and other system while they tow the barge and the shields are getting stressed, too and requiring more power.
-Mike

[KirkSkyWalker]

Obviously, it takes more power to do someting from longer distances; that's why in "Mudd's Women" the ship burned out its crystals by protecting Mudd's ship at a distance.

Likewise, the ship can't move an infinite amount of mass; in "This Side of Paradise," the Enterprise burns out its warp-engines trying to deflect and destroy a huge asteroid from hitting a planet.

[Mike DiCenso]

The other thing is that these aren't terribly huge asteroids the E-1701 is trying to deflect, either in "Mudd's Women" as seen here in the remastered version. The original version seems to agree with the remastered version on this as well. Most of this fits in well with the E-E and Scimitar's shield damage from KE impacts in ST:NEM, and the impact damage the Alt-E suffers from large debris in ST 2009.
-Mike

[KirkSkyWalker]

Again, in "Mudd's Women" it's a question of distance; he wan't deflecting asteroids from the path of Mudd's ship, but stretching the Enterprise's shields around it.

Meanwhile the other damage is from combat with equally or better-abled ships.

[Mike DiCenso]

No, while the E-E and Scimitar in ST:NEM certainly did a lot of damage to one another with phasers, disruptors, and torpedoes; the actual KE impacts from the warbird wreckage impact knocked the E-E's shields down, and the E-E herself literally knifes into the Scimitar later on with her saucer section through shields of 70%. In ST 2009, the Alt-E takes damage through her shields in two major impact events immediately after dropping from warp into the debris rescue fleet's debris field, and well before any combat with the Narada.
-Mike

[Lucky]

Could you please be more specific? The last time I saw "Mudd's Women" I was something like 4 years old, and I don't recall ever seeing "Final Mission".

Memory Alpha seems to make it appear Mudds ship was damaged at the time so it could not defend it's self, and in "Final Mission" Memory Alpha makes it appear we are dealing with super technobabble radiation. An unshielded ship should not be threatened by things like mundane radiation unless there is a hull breach, and a properly working trek ship should have no problems with mundane space rocks..

From "Final Mission":

RIKER: Then we'll have to take it ourselves. We'll use our deflectors clear a path through the asteroids.

LAFORGE: I don't like the idea of getting close enough to that barge to tow it. The radiation levels are so high we'd be risking the contamination of the entire crew.

RIKER: Do you have a better idea, Geordi?

LAFORGE: We could send over a construction module to attach thrusters to it. Then we could direct it through the asteroid belt from a safe distance.

The plans is to use the shields to clear a path through the field, the radiation is the danger because the barge will be inside the E-D's shields and so close to the ship. Later:

LAFORGE: I can't divert any more power to the shields. We're already hitting our maximum thermal limits. Only other choice is to bring some other fusion reactors online, but we're running at peak coolant pressure.

The sheer forces and other stresses stran the tractor beam and other system while they tow the barge and the shields are getting stressed, too and requiring more power.
-Mike

What seems to be exotic radiation, check.

Why would they not use the Navigational deflector to do it'd job?

Anyway we can just write your examples up as the FX crew making stupid mistakes again for one reason or another.^_^

[Mike DiCenso]

Nothing is stated about the radiation being exotic, and you for got this little bit about the situation anyway:

DATA: Structural integrity of the barge has been compromised. Disintegration is continuing.

RIKER: Shut down thrusters. Ensign, take us to one thousand metres ahead of the barge and hold.

DATA: External radiation levels increasing, sir.

ALLENBY: Coming into position at one thousand metres.

RIKER: Worf, extend shields around the ship. Lock on the tractor beam.

WORF: Aye, sir.

The radiation was affecting them because they had to take the barge inside the shields to protect it from the asteroids. The shields then are getting pelted by asteroids as the ship moves through the field, and have to do more work because they've been extended so far.

As for the other examples, they're quite numerous as well as canon, and cannot be ignored.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

That's a lot of buttocks in Mudd's Women. That's ai ai...

Anyway, erm, I must say that the effects of that episode weren't bad, for a distant explosion. I can't see the asteroid impacting the ship though in the remastered reel. We do see a small one that seems intact after impact, so I'd rather rule it out, but I can't see any approaching the ship.

Do we know anything about the radiations from "Final Mission"?

[Praeothmin]

If you look at the size of certain of these asteroids in the remastered "Mudd's Women", some of these rocks were probably around 30-40 meters across, and were zipping past the Enterprise around 300m/s, easily...

[Lucky]

Nothing is stated about the radiation being exotic, and you for got this little bit about the situation anyway:

DATA: Structural integrity of the barge has been compromised. Disintegration is continuing.

RIKER: Shut down thrusters. Ensign, take us to one thousand metres ahead of the barge and hold.

DATA: External radiation levels increasing, sir.

ALLENBY: Coming into position at one thousand metres.

RIKER: Worf, extend shields around the ship. Lock on the tractor beam.

WORF: Aye, sir.

The radiation was affecting them because they had to take the barge inside the shields to protect it from the asteroids. The shields then are getting pelted by asteroids as the ship moves through the field, and have to do more work because they've been extended so far.

As for the other examples, they're quite numerous as well as canon, and cannot be ignored.
-Mike

And the ship should be shielded from mundane radiation even without it's shields that are not always on/up.

They don't need to say something is exotic/technobabble for it to be so. The ship they were towing had some exotic stuff in it given the only thing we see threaten the ships in a similar fashion are nuclear/anti-matter weapons, or being stupidly close to stars.

[Mike DiCenso]

Mundane radiation or not, we know that EM radiation can and does penetrate the ship's unshielded hull as per "The Best of Both Worlds, Parts 1 & 2". In "Booby Trap", BoBW, as well as other episodes, it is the intensity of the radiation that amtters. Given how radioactive the barge in "Final Mission" was, I have no doubt that the radiation intensity would eventually become a hazard to the crew and some systems on the E-D.
-Mike

[Lucky]

Mundane radiation or not, we know that EM radiation can and does penetrate the ship's unshielded hull as per "The Best of Both Worlds, Parts 1 & 2". In "Booby Trap", BoBW, as well as other episodes, it is the intensity of the radiation that amtters. Given how radioactive the barge in "Final Mission" was, I have no doubt that the radiation intensity would eventually become a hazard to the crew and some systems on the E-D.
-Mike

The problem is that I can't think of any mundane substance that would be that dangerous. even if there was a lot of it. The stuff would be in special sealed containers, the damaged ship would also shield the E-D, and the Hull of the E-D is rated for taking Nukes.

It is magic radiation.

Is there a reason they didn't jut use their Nav deflector to do it's job?

[Mike DiCenso]

Why wouldn't high-intensity radiation be an issue? Thermal radiation certainly effects ST ships, as we've seen in "Descent, part 2":

"Sir, hull temperature is rising. Now at twelve thousand degrees C. Radiation level nearing ten thousand rads."

And again in "Arsenal of Freedom":

"Hull three thousand degrees."

And that during mundane exposure to atmospheric entry friction.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Ten thousand rads? that's huge. And anything which can be bring the hull of such a ship to thousand of degrees is not just some mundane radiation. It's more like sitting next to a leaking singularity that pumps out nasty levels of energy. How the ship could survive that even before the E-D could be threatened is another question.

[Mike DiCenso]

The intensity of the radiation is not "mundane" to be sure, but the type of radiation itself is not necessarily anything extraordinary. Based on the numbers given in "Descent",the star they were heading towards was definitely not a generic G-type star, but something much larger and more luminous, like an F-type star or something larger, though not an A or B, since the star's light when seen from the surface of the planet Lore's group of Borg had taken refuge on as seen here in this series of screencaps with E-D search parties on the surface is illuminated with an intense orange-yellow glow.
-Mike