Nature of Empire vs. Federation technology

[KirkSkyWalker]

In "A Piece of the Action," Spock says that the transtator is the basis of all Fed technology, and Kirk fears that the Ionians will reverse-engineer it to become a galactic mob.

This follows the space-warp principle of the warp-engines, which basically converts E-M energy to gravitational energy, and therefore all Starfleet devices are based on space-bending technology.

In contrast, Empire technology seems mostly based on E-M principles, except for hyperdrive (which was stated in some sources to be extra-galactic in origins).

While SDN leans on energy-figures in comparing the two, the existence of this space-bending technology puts Starfleet clean out of the Empire's league.

Another point is computing technology, which in the Federation is based on duotronics, or "quantum computing" by today's definitions. This would make computers far faster and more powerful than digital designs.

For these reasons, any comparison of the two must consider these differences. Essentially, Imperial weapons can't harm Federation shields-- and couldn't even catch up to Federation ships anyway, or reach them at Federation-weapons range; likewise, Imperial shields have no effect on stopping Starfleet weapons.

And when you throw transporters and time-travel into the mix, then it isn't even close.

[Praeothmin]

Well, if you take into consideration that Hyper-reactors seem to power everything on an ISD, then the ISD may be able to power it weapons to a level that can threaten any Federation vessel.

Just because the tech is different, it doesn't mean it cannot affect the other universe's ships...

[KirkSkyWalker]

Well, if you take into consideration that Hyper-reactors seem to power everything on an ISD, then the ISD may be able to power it weapons to a level that can threaten any Federation vessel.

Just because the tech is different, it doesn't mean it cannot affect the other universe's ships...

I have to question the canonicity of "hyper-reactors," when canon states that the tech is powered purely by fusion.

Likewise, the level of the beam-weapon isn't the issue, if deflectors bend the space that the weapon moves through, so that a straight line becomes curved; and thus the beam which moves in a straight line through normal space will miss the ship completely no matter how powerful it is. (This is also how the ship's main deflector clears any space-debris from its path while moving at warp).

Phasers, meanwhile, are subspace-distortion beams, and so can overpower a deflector; likewise, photon torpedoes have uber-powerful shields.


Therefore: assuming that a Star-destroyer can produce E+25J of energy-- somewhat in accord with Han Solo's statement that it would take 1000 ships with more firepower that he'd ever seen, to destroy Alderaan-- then they could just fire away at the Enterprise with all 10 trillion terrawats each, and it would all just richochet off into space; and if any did get through, then the ship's force-fields could handle it. And anything that got through beyond that, wouldn't even warm the hull enough to peel the paint.

[Mike DiCenso]

Another point is computing technology, which in the Federation is based on duotronics, or "quantum computing" by today's definitions. This would make computers far faster and more powerful than digital designs.

Where do you get that duotronics = quantum computing?

I have to question the canonicity of "hyper-reactors," when canon states that the tech is powered purely by fusion.

Likewise, the level of the beam-weapon isn't the issue, if deflectors bend the space that the weapon moves through, so that a straight line becomes curved; and thus the beam which moves in a straight line through normal space will miss the ship completely no matter how powerful it is. (This is also how the ship's main deflector clears any space-debris from its path while moving at warp).

This is another "No limits" fallacy since we have seen that EM radiation from stars of various kinds can overwhelm a starship's shields given enough time and exposure at close range. Plasma weapons, like the Romulan plasma torpedo could completely overwhelm the deflector shields of at least of several outposts and could completely knockout the E-1701's and destroy were it at full power (luckily the ship was able to retreat fast enough to get out of the weapon's effective range).
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Well, if you take into consideration that Hyper-reactors seem to power everything on an ISD, then the ISD may be able to power it weapons to a level that can threaten any Federation vessel.

Just because the tech is different, it doesn't mean it cannot affect the other universe's ships...

I have to question the canonicity of "hyper-reactors," when canon states that the tech is powered purely by fusion.

Likewise, the level of the beam-weapon isn't the issue, if deflectors bend the space that the weapon moves through, so that a straight line becomes curved; and thus the beam which moves in a straight line through normal space will miss the ship completely no matter how powerful it is. (This is also how the ship's main deflector clears any space-debris from its path while moving at warp).

Phasers, meanwhile, are subspace-distortion beams, and so can overpower a deflector; likewise, photon torpedoes have uber-powerful shields.


Therefore: assuming that a Star-destroyer can produce E+25J of energy-- somewhat in accord with Han Solo's statement that it would take 1000 ships with more firepower that he'd ever seen, to destroy Alderaan-- then they could just fire away at the Enterprise with all 10 trillion terrawats each, and it would all just richochet off into space; and if any did get through, then the ship's force-fields could handle it. And anything that got through beyond that, wouldn't even warm the hull enough to peel the paint.

Problem is, we have seen ships impact upon one another in ST, and that even when shields were on (ST: NEM), so if the shields really did bend space around a ship, a low
speed kinetic impactor would not be able to even come near a ship...

[Mike DiCenso]

Problem is, we have seen ships impact upon one another in ST, and that even when shields were on (ST: NEM), so if the shields really did bend space around a ship, a low speed kinetic impactor would not be able to even come near a ship...

We have? You make that sound like it was the norm for ST shields versus KE impacts (which actually isn't what you claim since both ship's shields were heavily damaged by that point anyway). What about TOS' "Mudd's Women" were the E-1701 extends her shields and blocks numerous asteroid impacts from destroying Harry Mudd's little J class cargo ship. Or howabout "Datalore", where the E-D's shields bounce the multi-km Crystalline Entity? Or "The Hunted" when the E-D's shields block a section of Rogar Danar's shuttle from hitting the ship, and so on?
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

I think you misunderstand me Mike.
What I mean is that the shields did not "alter" the flight pattern of the incoming objects, as it should if Kirk's explanation is valid, and the objects did indeed strike the shields of the vessels in question...

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I think you misunderstand me Mike.
What I mean is that the shields did not "alter" the flight pattern of the incoming objects, as it should if Kirk's explanation is valid, and the objects did indeed strike the shields of the vessels in question...

I always thought it was the navigational deflectors that dealt with unguided (so not torps ect) physical impact threats not the shields with a combo of tractor beams and some sort of subspace or gravitational bow wave.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Another point is computing technology, which in the Federation is based on duotronics, or "quantum computing" by today's definitions. This would make computers far faster and more powerful than digital designs.

Where do you get that duotronics = quantum computing?

From the basic definitions of both. Duotronics enabled a binary-digital computer to not only consider 1 or 0, but every possibility in-between.
That's the precise definition of quantum-computing.

I have to question the canonicity of "hyper-reactors," when canon states that the tech is powered purely by fusion.

Likewise, the level of the beam-weapon isn't the issue, if deflectors bend the space that the weapon moves through, so that a straight line becomes curved; and thus the beam which moves in a straight line through normal space will miss the ship completely no matter how powerful it is. (This is also how the ship's main deflector clears any space-debris from its path while moving at warp).

This is another "No limits" fallacy since we have seen that EM radiation from stars of various kinds can overwhelm a starship's shields given enough time and exposure at close range.

Not with multiphasic shielding. Thus the problem was that it was impossible for phased shielding to adapt to all the frequencies put out by the star; however that’s not the case with beam-weapons where it’s coherent-beam-- by necessity.

Plasma weapons, like the Romulan plasma torpedo could completely overwhelm the deflector shields of at least of several outposts and could completely knockout the E-1701's and destroy were it at full power (luckily the ship was able to retreat fast enough to get out of the weapon's effective range).
-Mike

The Romulan plasma-weapon was not a simple blob of plasma—as clearly evidenced by the fact that it could exceed Warp 9, follow its target etc. That required that it utilize some type of subspace; same with Photon torpedoes.

[KirkSkyWalker]

I think you misunderstand me Mike.
What I mean is that the shields did not "alter" the flight pattern of the incoming objects, as it should if Kirk's explanation is valid, and the objects did indeed strike the shields of the vessels in question...

I always thought it was the navigational deflectors that dealt with unguided (so not torps ect) physical impact threats not the shields with a combo of tractor beams and some sort of subspace or gravitational bow wave.

Tractor-beams are the opposite of deflector-beams.
The tactical deflectors are even more powerful, as evidenced in "The Outrageous Okuna" when Picard said "Lasers? Those won't even cut through our navigational deflectors!" via the word "even," indicating that their tactical deflectors were stronger.
The navigational deflectors, meanwhile, are in the main deflector-dish, but they don't usually have much work to do just sweeping free protons and other debris out of the way-- but sometimes they have more powerful work to do.

[Mike DiCenso]

From the basic definitions of both. Duotronics enabled a binary-digital computer to not only consider 1 or 0, but every possibility in-between.
That's the precise definition of quantum-computing.

I still don't see how you get from dutronics to quantum computing. Nothing was ever stated how dutronics worked. It was just... there.

Not with multiphasic shielding. Thus the problem was that it was impossible for phased shielding to adapt to all the frequencies put out by the star; however that’s not the case with beam-weapons where it’s coherent-beam-- by necessity.

Multiphasic shielding or any other similar shielding is not all-powerful as witnessed by the fact that Voyager in "Scientific Method" was unable to withstand passing between close binary pulsars. Even energy weapons have been shown to penetrate more modern Trek ship shields. Saying otherwise is a No Limits Fallacy.

The Romulan plasma-weapon was not a simple blob of plasma—as clearly evidenced by the fact that it could exceed Warp 9, follow its target etc. That required that it utilize some type of subspace; same with Photon torpedoes.

No, it wasn't, but whether the torpedo itself made use of a mechanism, that device still projected a "blob" of high-energy plasma. It is the plasma that did the damage as per the E-1701 and Mr. Spock's analysis of Outpost 4's destruction.
-Mike

[KirkSkyWalker]

From the basic definitions of both. Duotronics enabled a binary-digital computer to not only consider 1 or 0, but every possibility in-between.
That's the precise definition of quantum-computing.

I still don't see how you get from dutronics to quantum computing. Nothing was ever stated how dutronics worked. It was just... there.

So your logic is that if they didn't spoonfeed everything to the audience in painstaking technobabble and exposition, then it was a deus ex machina?
No, nothing was ever "just there;" everything had a basis in the plot and in theoretical science. However, Roddenberry stated that it would be implausible and counterproductive to the show, to go around explaining every bit of technology-- his exact words were that "a policeman doesn't draw his gun, explain how it works, and then use it."
However there was "inside" canonical material which did give background history of Starfleet and Federation technology. Heard of Dr. Richard Daystrom? What do you think the "duo" in duotronics means? Meanwhile the M-5 utilized an advancement called "multitronics" which went even further.

Not with multiphasic shielding. Thus the problem was that it was impossible for phased shielding to adapt to all the frequencies put out by the star; however that’s not the case with beam-weapons where it’s coherent-beam-- by necessity.

Multiphasic shielding or any other similar shielding is not all-powerful as witnessed by the fact that Voyager in "Scientific Method" was unable to withstand passing between close binary pulsars. Even energy weapons have been shown to penetrate more modern Trek ship shields. Saying otherwise is a No Limits Fallacy.

When did Voyager employ multiphasic shielding? It's just a research-vessel, basically-- not a warship.
And which energy-weapons were able to penetrate Trek-shields? The disruptor-weapons in "A Taste of Armageddon" certainly couldn't- despite having 10^18db of force, IIRC!

And finally, who says that there have to be limits to deflecting energy, when it comes to bending the space that the energy traverses?
It's like saying that if an SD fires E+25J of laser-energy, and the Enterprise evades at warp 2, then this "isn't fast enough to escape that much energy" because that would be a "No-Limits Fallacy."
Obviously, i'ts not a question of how much-- but how fast; in "Generations," no one questioned that the Enterprise could escape an exploding star at Warp 1, because stars obviously can't explode faster than Warp 1-- no natural phenomenon can.
And that goes for SD-weapons as well.

So if a weapon can't travel faster than C, it can't really exceed a deflector.

[Praeothmin]

However, Roddenberry stated that it would be implausible and counterproductive to the show, to go around explaining every bit of technology-- his exact words were that "a policeman doesn't draw his gun, explain how it works, and then use it."

Agreed so so much on this one.
This is what killed ST for me, all the long, stupid, sometimes science raping explanations used to show us what we were seeing, instead of just saying "I can compensate for these disturbances Captain" and doing it...

And which energy-weapons were able to penetrate Trek-shields?

The Breen and Dominion weapons, for example, and all those shots hitting a ship and where the "bleedthrough" causes damage to systems on the ship, where the shields are still there, but consoles still explode.
And while people commented on how stupid the "shileds down to X percent" was, I think it's just an indication of how much energy the shield can absorb and dissipate, and how much will actually hit the ship.
For example, at full power, 100% of an attack's energy will be dissipated and at most we will see the ship rock a bit, but when the shields are at 20%, then 80% of the attack's energy will impact the ship and damage it, thus why we hear of actual physical damage to ships when shields are still there, only less powerful...

[Mr. Oragahn]

Likewise, the level of the beam-weapon isn't the issue, if deflectors bend the space that the weapon moves through, so that a straight line becomes curved; and thus the beam which moves in a straight line through normal space will miss the ship completely no matter how powerful it is. (This is also how the ship's main deflector clears any space-debris from its path while moving at warp).

That would, in theory, be more the way a cloaking device works, safe that we do know that it doesn't really deviate anything heavier than photons. And I wouldn't actually call that a deviation because there would be obvious glitches with such a system, depending on where you stand against the cloaked ship. It's more like the cloak lets photons pass through. The epithome of that would exactly be the phasing device of the Pegasus.

Phasers, meanwhile, are subspace-distortion beams, and so can overpower a deflector;

Hey?

... likewise, photon torpedoes have uber-powerful shields.

That I agree with. My position on this is that the shields are short lived, unstable, as "bursty" in nature, and not suited to application on crafts with people inside.

Therefore: assuming that a Star-destroyer can produce E+25J of energy-- somewhat in accord with Han Solo's statement that it would take 1000 ships with more firepower that he'd ever seen, to destroy Alderaan-- then they could just fire away at the Enterprise with all 10 trillion terrawats each, and it would all just richochet off into space; and if any did get through, then the ship's force-fields could handle it. And anything that got through beyond that, wouldn't even warm the hull enough to peel the paint.

I think people here would agree that those figures are absurd.
And Trek shields won't ignore or effortlessly deflect fire from an ISD.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Likewise, the level of the beam-weapon isn't the issue, if deflectors bend the space that the weapon moves through, so that a straight line becomes curved; and thus the beam which moves in a straight line through normal space will miss the ship completely no matter how powerful it is. (This is also how the ship's main deflector clears any space-debris from its path while moving at warp).

That would, in theory, be more the way a cloaking device works, safe that we do know that it doesn't really deviate anything heavier than photons. And I wouldn't actually call that a deviation because there would be obvious glitches with such a system, depending on where you stand against the cloaked ship. It's more like the cloak lets photons pass through. The epithome of that would exactly be the phasing device of the Pegasus.

A cloaking-device basically re-routes them so that particles end up virtually unaltered in their paths-- essentially like Penn&Teller using mirrors to make something "disappear."
Deflectors, meanwhile, only deflect particles enough so that they just miss the ship-- obviously that's easier.

Phasers, meanwhile, are subspace-distortion beams, and so can overpower a deflector;

Hey?

... likewise, photon torpedoes have uber-powerful shields.

That I agree with. My position on this is that the shields are short lived, unstable, as "bursty" in nature, and not suited to application on crafts with people inside.

Obviously, a bomb that's about to detonate in seconds or less, is going to have more power at its disposal than a ship, per unit of size and mass; also it will be additionally "charged" with speed and energy by the ship's torpedo-tubes. The shields on a torpedo both protect it, and allow it to penetrate the target's deflector-shields by being stronger per unit of size.

Therefore: assuming that a Star-destroyer can produce E+25J of energy-- somewhat in accord with Han Solo's statement that it would take 1000 ships with more firepower that he'd ever seen, to destroy Alderaan-- then they could just fire away at the Enterprise with all 10 trillion terrawats each, and it would all just richochet off into space; and if any did get through, then the ship's force-fields could handle it. And anything that got through beyond that, wouldn't even warm the hull enough to peel the paint.

I think people here would agree that those figures are absurd.

The canon doesn't. Han made an implied statement that 1000 ships with more than standard firepower could destroy the planet-- which required about E+29J; so from this, 1000 standard star-destroyers might only have a combined firepower of "only" E+28J -- and therefore it's entirely conceivable that a single star-destroyer could generate E+25J; that's ten times standard firepower..

And Trek shields won't ignore or effortlessly deflect fire from an ISD.

Sure they could; it's just EM energy and plasma, and those can be deflected aside with no net energy required, other than needed to bend the space.
But it's a moot point, since they wouldn't have to, given the Fed ships' speed and range, and ability to penetrate Imperial shields with gravity-based weaponry.