Base Delta Zero
- Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Base Delta Zero
There's something I read in the current SW firepower thread at SBC that made me want to check out an older thread which ended by being nothing more than a duel between me and Leo1 about the BDZ and other showings (see here).
It seems that while I was arguing that the topsoil could be dead (Leo1 said it was alive but he simply had no such proof), I didn't push the logic far enough. Mike spoke about Martian topsoil, and I'm sure I had done a bit of research about that as well, but surprisingly I can't find any suggestion about Lunar topsoil.
Although Dankayo is not a moon, it's proof that topsoil can be found on small solid bodies.
PS: I notice that Leo1 is again trying to reboot the point about the low powered Death Star shots btw, conveniently missing out the bit about the scorched cities, solely to focus on the small sea/large lake portion of the quote.
It seems that while I was arguing that the topsoil could be dead (Leo1 said it was alive but he simply had no such proof), I didn't push the logic far enough. Mike spoke about Martian topsoil, and I'm sure I had done a bit of research about that as well, but surprisingly I can't find any suggestion about Lunar topsoil.
Although Dankayo is not a moon, it's proof that topsoil can be found on small solid bodies.
PS: I notice that Leo1 is again trying to reboot the point about the low powered Death Star shots btw, conveniently missing out the bit about the scorched cities, solely to focus on the small sea/large lake portion of the quote.
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Re: Base Delta Zero
Nice to see a lot of healthy skepticism against Leo1's insane claims and the ICS in general in those linked to threads. But anyway, aside from Martian topsoil, the term has been applied to our nearest neighbor as any Google search will bring up. So although Dankayo may not be a moon (although we know planet-sized moons exist in real life as well as in SW), it does not have to be an Earth-sized, nor even a Mars-sized. A pity there were no illustrations to accompany the sourcebook for that section.
-Mike
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Re: Base Delta Zero
Ah, Leo1 has now dragged two people, Hig and l33telboi, into his own silly debate about the topsoil... precisely two years and eight months after he tried it against me and failed.
Perfect demonstration of the typical rinse and repeat until the opposition wears off motto.
I also find it amusing that by default, we should consider that Dankayo hosted life to any significant extent, when you can see with our own systems that most planets and large moons are just shitholes. :]
Oh wait, he goes as far as to call the use of the word topsoil along side adjectives such as Lunar and Martian as "specific" and "esoteric" context. Yes, f***in' esoteric.
Even after being shown that it's used in serious scientific papers.
I mean, he doesn't even realize that we generally don't bother say Terran topsoil because, well, we happen to live on Terra 24/24.
No, seriously. It hurts. That's more than desperate. It's beyond pathetic. Throw him some nuts.
I wish Vympel good luck though, especially against the very stubborn Higbvuyb.
Perfect demonstration of the typical rinse and repeat until the opposition wears off motto.
I also find it amusing that by default, we should consider that Dankayo hosted life to any significant extent, when you can see with our own systems that most planets and large moons are just shitholes. :]
Oh wait, he goes as far as to call the use of the word topsoil along side adjectives such as Lunar and Martian as "specific" and "esoteric" context. Yes, f***in' esoteric.
Even after being shown that it's used in serious scientific papers.
I mean, he doesn't even realize that we generally don't bother say Terran topsoil because, well, we happen to live on Terra 24/24.
No, seriously. It hurts. That's more than desperate. It's beyond pathetic. Throw him some nuts.
I wish Vympel good luck though, especially against the very stubborn Higbvuyb.
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Re: Base Delta Zero
Oh, when push comes to shove, eventually Leo1 will get one of his moderator buds to shut down the thread, or barring that ban a few people, and by extension shut down the thread that way. Until then, Leo will continue on by doing his equivalent of plugging his ears and yelling "LA-LA-LA! NOT THERE! NOT THERE!" in order to drag things out.
-Mike
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Re: Base Delta Zero
Damn, Vympel is a good example of what's wrong about BDZ interpretations.
He also tried to push his age old specious interpretation of "evenly cratered".
He's damn lucky that no one has pointed out (as I did) that Dankayo is also the name of the base (everything about the base, from its defenses to its terrain). Can you imagine Leo1's mental meltdown?
His same old broken logic is to assume that one says "A happened to the surface of B", then it means "100% of the surface of B has been affected by A", instead of "A affected one or several points on surface of B."
Would we accept his vision, plenty of funny images would come to the mind when thinking about "they landed on the Moon" or "an asteroid hit the surface of Earth".
I guess they just bounced a lot.
But yes, he's clearly well beyond the border into LaLaLand territory.
I'm disappointed by the mediocrity of the arguments made by the opposition though, so much that he can still argue about the atmosphere being boiled off and yet see no counter argumentation about all the problems resulting from this claim.
Oh, lookie, I'm pulled into the debate.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=288
:)
I'll just remind mister sup'rioar Engrish higbvuyb of this little nagging fact. ;)
Yes, I told you he was very obtuse. And there's quite a difference between misreading a quote after missing out the word "remarked" and acknowledging this few posts later, and yapping for days on the same quote after being clearly shown wrong about it, as it can be seen here (that's the thread which ended into the poll above).
I don't know if the most saddening part was to see my opponents suddenly try this same insult to win arguments. They weren't noticeable for their greater imagination after all.
I find it amusing that they are referring to that post (which is never linked to in the thread so I suppose they PMed each other, or if they removed the link after an edit, or have both read it some time ago and funnily enough, immediately knew about the reference), and yet apparently couldn't even quote the rest of the material and reach their own conclusions.
Their discussion indeed looks like they've read beyond the usual short section that's generally quoted out of the book.
As for the topsoil argument; yes, I omitted posting my observations from early 2008 into that post of 2009. I simply thought I already had posted it.
I thought I did, but since we tend to discuss the same topic on two different threads at times, and since finding a link to SBC I may have posted while discussing about the BDZ or the ICS elsewhere on this board is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Besides, we tend to necro threads so that doesn't help either. ^^
Anyway, let me quote the relevant portion of my post at SBC:
Just counting the posts until they reach the conclusion we have already reached here... aaaand... wait, no.
Meanwhile, I'll quote the Milagro reference, since I'm not sure we have it here:
An interesting note about Coruscant's planetary shields (copied from Jared's post, although he may be quoting stuff from RSA's page
[quote="X-Wing: The Krytos Trap" p.324"]
As the Lusankya picked up speed, the gunners shifted their aimpoints and began firing at the upper atmosphere. Their shots hit and splashed color into the lower of the two shield spheres encasing the planet. Created to stop starship assaults from without, they proved just as powerful against an attack from within. Even so, after twenty seconds of the Lusankya's withering barrage, a hole opened in the lower shield."[/quote]
It doesn't really mean they were as efficient against fire from within, but at least that how good they are on the low end.
He also tried to push his age old specious interpretation of "evenly cratered".
He's damn lucky that no one has pointed out (as I did) that Dankayo is also the name of the base (everything about the base, from its defenses to its terrain). Can you imagine Leo1's mental meltdown?
His same old broken logic is to assume that one says "A happened to the surface of B", then it means "100% of the surface of B has been affected by A", instead of "A affected one or several points on surface of B."
Would we accept his vision, plenty of funny images would come to the mind when thinking about "they landed on the Moon" or "an asteroid hit the surface of Earth".
I guess they just bounced a lot.
But yes, he's clearly well beyond the border into LaLaLand territory.
I'm disappointed by the mediocrity of the arguments made by the opposition though, so much that he can still argue about the atmosphere being boiled off and yet see no counter argumentation about all the problems resulting from this claim.
Oh, lookie, I'm pulled into the debate.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=288
:)
I'll just remind mister sup'rioar Engrish higbvuyb of this little nagging fact. ;)
Yes, I told you he was very obtuse. And there's quite a difference between misreading a quote after missing out the word "remarked" and acknowledging this few posts later, and yapping for days on the same quote after being clearly shown wrong about it, as it can be seen here (that's the thread which ended into the poll above).
I don't know if the most saddening part was to see my opponents suddenly try this same insult to win arguments. They weren't noticeable for their greater imagination after all.
I find it amusing that they are referring to that post (which is never linked to in the thread so I suppose they PMed each other, or if they removed the link after an edit, or have both read it some time ago and funnily enough, immediately knew about the reference), and yet apparently couldn't even quote the rest of the material and reach their own conclusions.
Their discussion indeed looks like they've read beyond the usual short section that's generally quoted out of the book.
As for the topsoil argument; yes, I omitted posting my observations from early 2008 into that post of 2009. I simply thought I already had posted it.
I thought I did, but since we tend to discuss the same topic on two different threads at times, and since finding a link to SBC I may have posted while discussing about the BDZ or the ICS elsewhere on this board is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Besides, we tend to necro threads so that doesn't help either. ^^
Anyway, let me quote the relevant portion of my post at SBC:
Leo1 wrote: Dankayo is only stated to be a "little-remarked planet in a little-remarked system". Where does anything say Dankayo is "small"?
Maybe you need to read what's being quoted instead of what Mr. Oraghan liked to say about what's being quoted, in future. (because SFJ is the only place I can find such a claim, and it ain't in quotes).
Thanks for giving me the laugh for the late Mr. Oragahn that he thinks "little-remarked" means "small" as opposed to "not often talked about". Now that's funny.
Hig wrote:Ah, yes. Mr. Oragahn. Sadly he constantly denies being terrible at English, even though he thinks that 'topsoil' here needs to have plants growing in it.
I'll take that back, then.
[/quote][url=http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost.php?p=3493651&postcount=79]I[/url], Jan 19th 2008, 10:40pm wrote:Any bonus to anyone who can prove that it's actually alive.Leo1 wrote: And Dankayo could've also been made of fairy floss, with a core made up of a giant neutronium turtle, with angel wings, and Eskimo brains. And bonus to anyone who can see where the hell Oraghan here proved that Dankayo's topsoil was actually dead*.
In case you didn't notice, nothing prevents me from considering this perfectly plausible parameter, to be correct here, by definition.
I mean, unless you bring me a picture of some very enjoyable planet, but then... it's still the same contradictory stance you enjoy, that is, atmosphere gone due to hellish bombardment, but a guy stuck down a multi kilometer deep rabbit hole making it out and even having time to think about assaulting the imperial ships with explosives.
Yay for logic!
Amusing. As I said, definitions make the topsoil usually alive... which rather obviously means that it's not always the case.
Nothing prevents it here, and it's actually a requirement. But I'm not surprised you don't get it, as you don't even see the aberrant contradiction of your own claims.
There is no spoon.
Just counting the posts until they reach the conclusion we have already reached here... aaaand... wait, no.
Meanwhile, I'll quote the Milagro reference, since I'm not sure we have it here:
Only a city glassed. No timeframe, number of ships uncertain."Throughout the Trioculus affair , the New Republic was engaged in a protracted military campaign for possession of Milagro, a world located at a key hyperspace junction. The Empire was prepared to lay waste to Milagro rather than allow the Rebels access to its manufacturing facilities. Following three months of exhausting clashes between AT-AT walkers and the New Republic Army, the defeated Imperials slagged the planet's surface with a withering orbital bombardment, then fled."
"Sunlight ripples across a sea of shimmering glass. Glass that had once been part of iridescent domes, towering minarets, soaring archways, vertical towers, and all the other structures that constitute a city. A city reduced to a sea of manmade lava, as Imperial laser cannon carved swathes of destruction through the once-beautiful metropolis."
An interesting note about Coruscant's planetary shields (copied from Jared's post, although he may be quoting stuff from RSA's page
[quote="X-Wing: The Krytos Trap" p.324"]
As the Lusankya picked up speed, the gunners shifted their aimpoints and began firing at the upper atmosphere. Their shots hit and splashed color into the lower of the two shield spheres encasing the planet. Created to stop starship assaults from without, they proved just as powerful against an attack from within. Even so, after twenty seconds of the Lusankya's withering barrage, a hole opened in the lower shield."[/quote]
It doesn't really mean they were as efficient against fire from within, but at least that how good they are on the low end.
- Praeothmin
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Re: Base Delta Zero
Actually, Mr. O., Milagro wasn't even glassed.
The passge clearly states:
If you destroy enough buildings here with Kton level firepower, you will be able to "glass" a city as well...
The passge clearly states:
Then, the "glassed" part is found here:the defeated Imperials slagged the planet's surface with a withering orbital bombardment, then fled."
Nothing really indicates the act of "glassing" the planet, merely that the glassy surface reflecting the sunlight had once been part of buildings.Sunlight ripples across a sea of shimmering glass. Glass that had once been part of iridescent domes, towering minarets, soaring archways, vertical towers, and all the other structures that constitute a city.
If you destroy enough buildings here with Kton level firepower, you will be able to "glass" a city as well...
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Re: Base Delta Zero
I never read them that way. Although it is a very valid interpretation, and actually the correct one without the context I have in mind, I know that there's an illustration that shows a beam hitting a large sea of lava flowing between towering rocky mountains. I know it's somewhere, it was presented as the result of a bombardment "slagging" the surface of a world in some old ICS or BDZ thread at spacebattles, in conjunction with Milagro's demise. That was part of the argument, and I didn't argue much ... although I recall that the impact of the beam didn't really look like it would slag anything in the molten way...Praeothmin wrote:Actually, Mr. O., Milagro wasn't even glassed.
The passge clearly states:Then, the "glassed" part is found here:the defeated Imperials slagged the planet's surface with a withering orbital bombardment, then fled."Nothing really indicates the act of "glassing" the planet, merely that the glassy surface reflecting the sunlight had once been part of buildings.Sunlight ripples across a sea of shimmering glass. Glass that had once been part of iridescent domes, towering minarets, soaring archways, vertical towers, and all the other structures that constitute a city.
If you destroy enough buildings here with Kton level firepower, you will be able to "glass" a city as well...
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Re: Base Delta Zero
Okay, Praeothmin, I think I've been bullshitted, not on the quote, but on the picture. :)
On what happened to Milagro, it is quite clear that it was subjected to a heavy bombardment. Here's a quote from that discussion I had with Leo in 2008:
Then, again, it's just one city, and everything else about the ship count and the duration is totally unknown.
In his very recent post here, Leo argues that the destruction of Milagro is "easily in line with significant firepower well in excess of the mere megaton range," among other examples.
I note he picked Triple Zero (like he did two years ago) but they pointed out that the author most likely dumbly quoted the molten slag bit from a databank.
Now, to the picture.
I found it on an old drive.
The picture is in fact showing a Venator firing two large beams from its port bay (hard to say if they're SPHA-Ts, they could be special batteries mounted there on a variant of this class).
The picture did indeed show lava. However, as I said, the damage done by the turbolasers didn't seem to be powerful enough to be the cause of it.
What happened?
Republic forces were besieging a planet called Saleucami for five months. It belonged to the Techno Union. The CIS were growing their own clones here.
The planet is a desert, with the cities built on the calderas of large craters caused by asteroid impacts:

You can notice the very revealing apart about how this particular city was powered: geothermal power from magma streams flowing underneath.
At the end of the siege, the Republic forces and the Jedi managed to get the shield generator protecting the main city down, and destroyed the ion cannon keeping the Republic fleet at bay as well as the clone factories in the catacombs of the city.
Under the city, one of the Jedi Tholme, fought against Quilan Vos over a river of fire.
The wookieepedia article has worded the chronology a bit differently from the way an article I found elsewhere put it.
The wookieepedia article doesn't focus much on how the clone factories and the shield generator were taken care of:
This page reveals that the ion cannon was running on its own power source.
So they still had to take down the ion cannon in the end. That's where both chronologies meet.
It allowed the Republic fleet to shoot at the city. All of which leads us to the picture I spoke of:
Anyway, the magma is not the result of the firepower.
I also saw another quotation used to defend BDZ levels by Leo back in 2008:
1. Firepower was concentrated on cities.
2. They were reduced to rubble, so the melting of earth was not extensive.
3. No ship count given.
4. No duration given either.
On what happened to Milagro, it is quite clear that it was subjected to a heavy bombardment. Here's a quote from that discussion I had with Leo in 2008:
I'm (un)surprised as to how quotes seem to only come in portions, largely incomplete. There is really no excuse as to why the entirety of it was presented the first time, wherever Leo picked it from. See:Jedi Knight wrote: Sunlight ripples across a sea of shimmering glass. Glass that had once been part of iridescent domes, towering minarets, soaring archways, vertical towers, and all the other structures that constitute a city. A city reduced to a sea of manmade lava, as Imperial laser cannon carved swathes of destruction through the once-beautiful metropolis.
See the difference about the interpretations resulting from reading both quotations? ;)Dark Forces 3: Jedi Knight wrote: Sunlight rippled across a sea of shimmering glass. Glass that had once been part of iridescent domes, towering minarets, soaring archways, vertical towers, and all the other structures that constitute a city. A city reduced to a sea of manmade lava, as Imperial laser cannon carved swathes of destruction through the once-beautiful metropolis. The resulting slag was thicker where buildings had been clustered and thinner out toward the suburbs, where the military base had been established.
The past could still be seen, on a hill where a nearly translucent temple glittered with emerald beauty, on a rise where a half-melted statue stretched a hand toward the heavens, and out on the silicone plain where isolated groups of dwellings remained untouched.
Then, again, it's just one city, and everything else about the ship count and the duration is totally unknown.
In his very recent post here, Leo argues that the destruction of Milagro is "easily in line with significant firepower well in excess of the mere megaton range," among other examples.
I note he picked Triple Zero (like he did two years ago) but they pointed out that the author most likely dumbly quoted the molten slag bit from a databank.
Now, to the picture.
I found it on an old drive.
The picture is in fact showing a Venator firing two large beams from its port bay (hard to say if they're SPHA-Ts, they could be special batteries mounted there on a variant of this class).
The picture did indeed show lava. However, as I said, the damage done by the turbolasers didn't seem to be powerful enough to be the cause of it.
What happened?
Republic forces were besieging a planet called Saleucami for five months. It belonged to the Techno Union. The CIS were growing their own clones here.
The planet is a desert, with the cities built on the calderas of large craters caused by asteroid impacts:

You can notice the very revealing apart about how this particular city was powered: geothermal power from magma streams flowing underneath.
At the end of the siege, the Republic forces and the Jedi managed to get the shield generator protecting the main city down, and destroyed the ion cannon keeping the Republic fleet at bay as well as the clone factories in the catacombs of the city.
Under the city, one of the Jedi Tholme, fought against Quilan Vos over a river of fire.
The wookieepedia article has worded the chronology a bit differently from the way an article I found elsewhere put it.
The wookieepedia article doesn't focus much on how the clone factories and the shield generator were taken care of:
The article from the other website says that it was considered that the Dark Jedi Bulq could restart his project elsewhere, so Secura made the magma reserves blow up, which destroyed the clone factories and the shield generator.Wookieepedia wrote: The Clone Army led a final charge on the droid positions. AT-TEs successfully destroyed the AA cannons, allowing LAAT gunships to advance with the clones. Speeder bikes and LAATs hammered the droids, and before the droids could organize properly, the LAATs went back for another pass, this time accompanied by clones. As the forces raged on, ARC-170 starfighters fired missiles on a massive separatist supply dump, creating a massive explosion, destroying a section of the citadel's walls. Using this advantage, the clones trapped a droid army and easily destroyed them.
The clones continued up to the second level, destroying droids as they went. Very soon, the citadel was captured, and a team of Jedi infiltrators blew up the shield generator. Capturing the citadel proved vital, for clone snipers could easily pick apart the separatists.
This page reveals that the ion cannon was running on its own power source.
So they still had to take down the ion cannon in the end. That's where both chronologies meet.
It allowed the Republic fleet to shoot at the city. All of which leads us to the picture I spoke of:
Anyway, the magma is not the result of the firepower.
I also saw another quotation used to defend BDZ levels by Leo back in 2008:
He emphasized the "merged with plains of heat-fused earth" part, but never paid attention to the following facts:Dark Forces 2: Rebel Agent wrote: CHAPTER FOUR
The hospital ship Mercy, an antiquated Dreadnaught, two assault frigates, a squadron of Corellian gun ships, and assorted support vessel orbited a recently devastated world. Cities of colored glass, now reduced to rubble, merged with plains of heat-fused earth. This was just one of the many planets laid to waste during the last few years.
1. Firepower was concentrated on cities.
2. They were reduced to rubble, so the melting of earth was not extensive.
3. No ship count given.
4. No duration given either.
Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Praeothmin
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Re: Base Delta Zero
And you're surprised about Vympel/Leo1's hyprocrisy because??????
This is nothing new, Vympel/Leo1 has always ignored eveything that disagreed with HIS interpretation of SW, and has always misquoted things that would disadvantage him in a debate.
Old news, really, and moreso, old Warsie tactic...
This is nothing new, Vympel/Leo1 has always ignored eveything that disagreed with HIS interpretation of SW, and has always misquoted things that would disadvantage him in a debate.
Old news, really, and moreso, old Warsie tactic...
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Re: Base Delta Zero
This tactic has been pretty typical of the Warsies who want to wank up BDZ firepower. The pulling of out of context quotes can be traced back many years to the earliest days of the debate and even to Curtis Saxton's SWTC website. The latter of which was heavily influenced by contributions from Pro-Wars types like Wayne Poe, Brian Young, and Mike Wong who had a vested interest in inflating SW firepower and technology well beyond anything the movies, or even the EU books were showing us.
But of course we already knew that. Your research here is only yet more examples that can be added to those already brought up by RSA in his "A Brief History of The Base Delta Zero Fallacy" essay. In short, cherry picking at it's worst.
And so it goes, every flack burst from the ISD Avenger to Slave-I, all of which were not hitting anything 99 percent of the time, suddenly become gigantic 100 meter wide asteroids being vaporized. When Slave-I hit something it was either Obi-Wan's fighter, or a couple of 12 meter asteroids, that did not get vaporized, just shattered, and the fragments drift away slowly from one another at a couple meters a second. When the Avenger finally struck something, it was the Falcon. When we did see asteroids hit by an unidentified ISD, they are far smaller than 100 meters. In fact, the commonly cited 20 meters would be stupendously generous. Thus the deceptions go on.
One thing, the material you cite above ought to be placed into the "List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS" thread along with the explanation of why it does not support ICS-level.
-Mike
But of course we already knew that. Your research here is only yet more examples that can be added to those already brought up by RSA in his "A Brief History of The Base Delta Zero Fallacy" essay. In short, cherry picking at it's worst.
And so it goes, every flack burst from the ISD Avenger to Slave-I, all of which were not hitting anything 99 percent of the time, suddenly become gigantic 100 meter wide asteroids being vaporized. When Slave-I hit something it was either Obi-Wan's fighter, or a couple of 12 meter asteroids, that did not get vaporized, just shattered, and the fragments drift away slowly from one another at a couple meters a second. When the Avenger finally struck something, it was the Falcon. When we did see asteroids hit by an unidentified ISD, they are far smaller than 100 meters. In fact, the commonly cited 20 meters would be stupendously generous. Thus the deceptions go on.
One thing, the material you cite above ought to be placed into the "List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS" thread along with the explanation of why it does not support ICS-level.
-Mike
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Re: Base Delta Zero
Well since the quotes never specify that they were BDZ, they could always say that they pulled punches, you know. So I'd rather leave it there, since it's generally presented in pro-ICS/BDZ threads.Mike DiCenso wrote:One thing, the material you cite above ought to be placed into the "List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS" thread along with the explanation of why it does not support ICS-level.
-Mike
There's quite a lot of stuff from that 2005 thread which I should actually summarize and put back here or the other thread in fact. What surprises me is that I have never done it, hence why I literally forgot my point about sterile top soils.
The descriptions from Crimson Empire and Triple Zero don't impress me either. They reek off of exaggeration and above all are general statements.
It's like asking:
"Have you ever seen what a violent storm can do to a forest? Trees are ripped off the ground, truncs are split apart by thunder and their foliages devoured by raging fire."
Wow.
When all these statements are true, the fact remains that a forest is never totally devastated by a storm directly. A small fraction of the trees are brought down, and even less are actually hit by thunder and destroyed in such a way. At best, uncontrolled fires can burn a large area, and that's wild fires: an after effect.
Another example:
"Have you ever seen what a meteorite shower can do to the biosphere of a planet? Skies are torn apart as fire rains from above, forests are vaporized, stones and soil are crushed and reduced to plasma."
Of course no one expects this to affect the entire planet.
Now the CE quote:
Yay for hyperbole!Crimson Empire wrote: Have you ever seen what a Star Destroyer can do to the surface of an unshielded planet? Stones run like water and sand turns to glass. And I have two Star Destroyers at my disposal.
The molten slag from Triple Zero is just as ambiguous because we've seen molten slag claimed when a BDZ was order against Nar Shaadaa, and yet Fel, fairly knowledgeable of what to expect from such an operation, knew what would happen and it never looked anywhere close to Saxton's melt a surface marathon thing (1, 2).
Also, a classical one, which I know I put somewhere else on that website, but which is always good to bring back:
SWTC, Base Delta Zero wrote: A Victory-class star destroyer bombarding an unshielded planet's surface to slag in a Base Delta Zero operation. [STAR WARS Vehicles trading cards]
The truth:
Not only there's no proof it's a planet at all, but there's no reason to assume it's a large object either.
For all we know, we may see a fraction of a small asteroid (example is Toutatis, 4.5 × 2.4 × 1.9 km).
See:
The asteroid would have to be bigger to match the length of the Star Destroyer (that one lacks the lateral double fins), which is 900 m. Mind you on this picture the asteroid is about 8 times longer than the VSD. That would make the asteroid 7.2 km long.
Sidenotes:
1. Under the circumstances as established in the SWTC quotation, the biggest explosion we see would dwarf the magnitude of the first explosion observed when the unshielded surface of Alderaan was hit by the Death Star's superlaser. Only that.
2. Saxton had a tendency to slap the BDZ tag on any impressive display of fireworks.
Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Base Delta Zero
Yes, well for example, neither does the "Darksaber" bombardment of Yavin IV get called a BDZ, and yet it is commonly cited by both sides for and against ICS-level firepower, though usually these against it. So while these instances may not speciifically be called a "BDZ", they are still examples of very sub-ICS levels of firepower.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Well since the quotes never specify that they were BDZ, they could always say that they pulled punches, you know. So I'd rather leave it there, since it's generally presented in pro-ICS/BDZ threads.
-Mike
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Re: Base Delta Zero
The lower displays of firepower strike me as relevant only if they actually are identifiable as maximums, like the ice planet and Dobido moon cases of "Vector Prime".Mike DiCenso wrote:Yes, well for example, neither does the "Darksaber" bombardment of Yavin IV get called a BDZ, and yet it is commonly cited by both sides for and against ICS-level firepower, though usually these against it. So while these instances may not speciifically be called a "BDZ", they are still examples of very sub-ICS levels of firepower.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Well since the quotes never specify that they were BDZ, they could always say that they pulled punches, you know. So I'd rather leave it there, since it's generally presented in pro-ICS/BDZ threads.
-Mike
Even if they'd ask to show that there are lower firepower cases, unless you could prove that they're maximums, they'd say "ha! but they are not full firepower examples, you dolt!", that kind of things...
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Re: Base Delta Zero
An old thread from here. The Darksaber Argument, a take on one of the articles from Wayne Poe's now closed website.
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Re: Base Delta Zero
One quote already provided somewhere on this forum, but which finds its place here. It's even possible that it was cited in this thread, but I'm lazy to look for it right now.
Surely these squads would deploy multi-gigaton explosives and above and absolutely try to melt a one meter thick layer of the crust of their area of action.Fragments of the Rim, page 54 wrote: The First Sun Mobile Regiment is a mercenary unit that contracts out to the Imperial Army quite frequently.
The First Sun is a repuslorlift infantry regiment designed primarily to run search-and-destroy missions, which the troops of the unit jocularly refer to as SLAMs (Search, Locate, Annhillate Mission).
Indeed the regiment often undertakes missions with the same objective as the Empire's "Base Delta Zero" command: the elimination of all assets of production, including factories, arable land, mines, fisheries, droids and sapient beings (particularly any witnesses that may have seen atrocities being committed).