List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

[Mr. Oragahn]

Could be semi slang or something where you don't use all the words which describe a given object when we understand what you're getting at.
Like for a plasma arc wielder, some would say "toss the plasma."
In this case we know Sienar was talking about a core.

Or he is literally talking about the plasma inside the core which will be filling a volume that would be 1 km wide.

Or it's a missing word but that's the last explanation and I'd rather go with an universe one that works.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Could be semi slang or something where you don't use all the words which describe a given object when we understand what you're getting at.
Like for a plasma arc wielder, some would say "toss the plasma."
In this case we know Sienar was talking about a core.

Or he is literally talking about the plasma inside the core which will be filling a volume that would be 1 km wide.

Or it's a missing word but that's the last explanation and I'd rather go with an universe one that works.

Either works for me dude im just glad i do not need to add english to my list of things i suck at understanding :).

[KirkSkyWalker]

Do you mean ICS, or ICS2? I've read the orignial ICS, and it didn't have any stats listed.

[Praeothmin]

The AotC ICS, and later the RotS ICS.
While the AotC ICS has Firepower figures (Kton level for the Jedi Starfighter), the RotS ICS had power generation figures.
All these figures are too high when analyzed with the movies and TCW...

[KirkSkyWalker]

The AotC ICS, and later the RotS ICS.
While the AotC ICS has Firepower figures (Kton level for the Jedi Starfighter), the RotS ICS had power generation figures.
All these figures are too high when analyzed with the movies and TCW...

Indeed; SDN spouts levels of 66kt/shot for the Slave I's lasers, which basically claimed that Boba Fett zapped Obi-Wan with Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Bikini Atoll on the Kamino platform, but did him NO harm simply because of a slight miss; I guess it's TRUE that "close only counts in horse-shoes and hand-grenades--" not kiloton-level explosions!
Likewise in their battle around Geonosis, the Slave I only managed to slightly damage Obi-wan's ship's long-range transmitter, despite Jango Fett scoring several direct hits.

They also claim that the seismic-charges "destroyed" all asteroids in a "radius" of the charge-- from which they then proceed to caclulate a spherical area, despite the explosions clearly being planar, and claiming that the charges produced enough energy to vaporize them; however there was no vapor formed, just a low-frequency "twang" that simply shattered the undeniably brittle bits of rock at near-absolute zero-- hell, Memorex coulda done it.

So these calculations are either incredibly misinformed, or incredibly dishonest; either way, they're horrbily exaggerated and wrong, and don't do much for their proponents' crediblity (which already ranks somewhere between Bernie Madoff and Usama Bin Laden's).

[Trinoya]

I motion that this thread be re-edited to include cannon examples from the clone wars series and the movies as well. I mean, as far as the EU goes this thread has clearly demonstrated the ICS simply isn't valid, so gathering the data for T-Cannon etc would be the next best thing.

Allow me to start with what I think is the best example from The Clone Wars:

Landing at point rain: Now most of us have seen this massive land battle and know well the countless examples of sub kiloton level explosions from everything from fighters to starships. This is a situation where the use of orbital bombardment would have been preferable to a land invasion to deal with the forces surrounding the shielded facility.. however they believe that invading via the ground is the superior option for some reason (perhaps due to the lack of gigaton level weaponry).

What I find most interesting in the episode is the massive defensive fortification (almost a dam) which was built in one of the mountain passes for seemingly no reason. The Republic deemed that area as a non issue and one that Anakin presumed they would be 'very far away from'

When they do encounter this fortification that is litterally covered in weapons a small force of clone troopers and jedi not only manage to scale the wall, but they also inflict damage upon it ease (even their blaster guns managing to do this)...

So the question becomes: Why is this fortification here if it can be so easily destroyed. I mean a single air strike would render this defensive structure entirely useless, or one shot from a turbo laser... and yet they didn't bomb it from orbit.. they simply walked up to it and defeated it in minutes of active combat.

It's puzzling on a grand scale... I mean there is a reason we don't use tall walled structures in modern combat, and that's because we could effortlessly destroy them with little effort. In this case it took a bit more effort than a modern abrams tank would have needed and in fact it was apparently standard enough equipment on these soldiers to have around that allowed them to scale the wall and claim victory (a plus for clone trooper equipment though)... this is to say nothing of the accuracy of the fortification... (which is a better showing than most in star wars, but frankly is still insanely terrible).

[Praeothmin]

You don't even need TWC to obtain weak Firepower figures.
Just use RotS, when the Clonetroopers fire on Obi-Wan on Utapau with the clear goal of killing him (order 66 anyone?), the blast barely engulfs Obi-Wan and the beast, and barely damages the rock face.
I would have thought that anyone wanting to destroy a Jedi Master as powerful as Obi-Wan would have used a bit more power in their shot just to be sure, had they had that extra power available...

[Mr. Oragahn]

You don't even need TWC to obtain weak Firepower figures.
Just use RotS, when the Clonetroopers fire on Obi-Wan on Utapau with the clear goal of killing him (order 66 anyone?), the blast barely engulfs Obi-Wan and the beast, and barely damages the rock face.
I would have thought that anyone wanting to destroy a Jedi Master as powerful as Obi-Wan would have used a bit more power in their shot just to be sure, had they had that extra power available...

Especially since we saw that what clonetroopers did to that Twi'lek Jedi o even Ki Adi Mundi.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I motion that this thread be re-edited to include cannon examples from the clone wars series and the movies as well. I mean, as far as the EU goes this thread has clearly demonstrated the ICS simply isn't valid, so gathering the data for T-Cannon etc would be the next best thing.

Allow me to start with what I think is the best example from The Clone Wars:

Landing at point rain: Now most of us have seen this massive land battle and know well the countless examples of sub kiloton level explosions from everything from fighters to starships. This is a situation where the use of orbital bombardment would have been preferable to a land invasion to deal with the forces surrounding the shielded facility.. however they believe that invading via the ground is the superior option for some reason (perhaps due to the lack of gigaton level weaponry).

What I find most interesting in the episode is the massive defensive fortification (almost a dam) which was built in one of the mountain passes for seemingly no reason. The Republic deemed that area as a non issue and one that Anakin presumed they would be 'very far away from'

When they do encounter this fortification that is litterally covered in weapons a small force of clone troopers and jedi not only manage to scale the wall, but they also inflict damage upon it ease (even their blaster guns managing to do this)...

So the question becomes: Why is this fortification here if it can be so easily destroyed. I mean a single air strike would render this defensive structure entirely useless, or one shot from a turbo laser... and yet they didn't bomb it from orbit.. they simply walked up to it and defeated it in minutes of active combat.

It's puzzling on a grand scale... I mean there is a reason we don't use tall walled structures in modern combat, and that's because we could effortlessly destroy them with little effort. In this case it took a bit more effort than a modern abrams tank would have needed and in fact it was apparently standard enough equipment on these soldiers to have around that allowed them to scale the wall and claim victory (a plus for clone trooper equipment though)... this is to say nothing of the accuracy of the fortification... (which is a better showing than most in star wars, but frankly is still insanely terrible).

I'm very cautious about TCWS and its showings.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=117
That and AATs that can't cut brushes and trees as in season 1 episode 1.
TCWS is good in terms of general guidelines, but they're certainly not trying to be as logical and realistic as if they had been shooting a live action show.

[Praeothmin]

TCWS is good in terms of general guidelines, but they're certainly not trying to be as logical and realistic as if they had been shooting a live action show.

Apparently, they weren't either when they shot AotC and RotS... :)

[KirkSkyWalker]

TCWS is good in terms of general guidelines, but they're certainly not trying to be as logical and realistic as if they had been shooting a live action show.

Apparently, they weren't either when they shot AotC and RotS... :)

I don't understand all the negative press about those, since they were just as good as the originals except for rose-colored hindsight "re-mastering;" but to compare them to TCWS, is like comparing TOS to TAS.

[Praeothmin]

I disagree.
The character devellopment in TCW is just as good, if not better, then anything seen in the movies.
The effects are similar, and the weapons and ships are identical.
The only thing different is the representation of the characters, but all the rest is consistent with the prequels.

TAS had many things not seen in TOS, namelly the life support belt.

[Trinoya]

I'm of the opinion that save for obvious contradictions it all should be taken as 100% gospel. Especially the episodes that George worked on.

For that matter: Should those episodes have a higher standing in the whole "T level" issue... sorta like.. you have movies, then T-Level George stuff, then T-level stuff.. any official statements anyone knows about?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I'm of the opinion that save for obvious contradictions it all should be taken as 100% gospel. Especially the episodes that George worked on.

For that matter: Should those episodes have a higher standing in the whole "T level" issue... sorta like.. you have movies, then T-Level George stuff, then T-level stuff.. any official statements anyone knows about?

I can find nothing in regards to T canon to support that but in regards to the G/C canon devide there is this:-

Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon.

That tells me that anything originating fully with lucas even in a C canon book of the mentioned types is considered G and anything not originating with Lucas even in a G canon book is considered C.....(kinda screwing the warsies who preach that ICS is a "higher" C canon than normal/standard C canon stuff).

I cannot say if the same applies to T canon though, but considering that T canon is higher than C id say a simular statment like the one above regarding the G/T canon devide maybe forthcoming in the future from chee.

[Mike DiCenso]

Before Chee said anything about T-level canon, Steve Sansweet at San Diego ComicCon about 5 years ago said that it was second only to the movies in the canon heirarchy. How do I know this? I was there!
-Mike