The Federation is weak

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Hmmm, perhaps I am thinking of the TMs. I had always assumed that 'max warp' was the maximum sustainable speeds.

You are right they do add a provision in The caretaker they say Voyager has a "sustainable" cruise velocity of 9.975 or summat like that, i cannot remember the exact phrasing but i do remember the "sustainable" part.

[Mike DiCenso]

It's actually stated twice in VOY, here's from "The Caretaker":

"Intrepid class. Sustainable cruise velocity of warp factor nine point nine seven five. Fifteen decks. Crew complement of one hundred and forty one. Bio-neural circuitry."

Next from "Relativity":

"Seven hundred thousand metric tons, fifteen decks, and computer systems augmented top cruising speed warp nine point nine seven five with bio-neural circuitry, ."

The second quote changes it from sustainable velocity to top cruising speed, but it is essentially the same.
-Mike

[Mith]

It's actually stated twice in VOY, here's from "The Caretaker":

"Intrepid class. Sustainable cruise velocity of warp factor nine point nine seven five. Fifteen decks. Crew complement of one hundred and forty one. Bio-neural circuitry."

Next from "Relativity":

"Seven hundred thousand metric tons, fifteen decks, and computer systems augmented top cruising speed warp nine point nine seven five with bio-neural circuitry, ."

The second quote changes it from sustainable velocity to top cruising speed, but it is essentially the same.
-Mike

Oh my, then that changes everything. 0_0

By those speeds, a ship could circle Federation space in 2.2 days, although we rarely see that happening. My, that would change things considerably. Still, it still seems odd. If ships can mantain Warp 9.9 at those speeds for days, then it should have taken a month or two at most for Voyager to return home.

EDIT:

Hmm, this is the TMs TNG warp scale:

W. Factor / Velocity (C) / Time
.5 / 0.099 / 43.64 years
1 / 1 / 4.33 years
2 / 10.08 / 156.91 days
3 / 38.94 / 40.61 days
4 / 101.59 / 15.57 days
5 / 213.75 / 7.4 days
6 / 392.5 / 4.03 days
7 / 656.14 / 2.41 days
8 / 1,024 / 37.07 hours
9 /1,516.38 / 25.03 hours
9.9 /21,473 / 1.71825397 minutes*
10 / ∞ / 0

I know we don't like using the TMs here, but I think it does have its uses.

*Inserted from canon information.

[Mike DiCenso]

To get an idea of what Voyager would be capable of in well-charted space, we only need to see the performance of her sister ship the Bellerophon as seen in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" in making the journey from Deep Space Nine to Romulus in less than a week. Here is the important dialog that constrains the trip's time:

KIRA: All right, that's it for today then. Same time next week? Oh sorry, Senator, you'll be attending that conference on Romulus, won't you?

CRETAK: Yes. But SubCommander Velal will be here in my place.

KIRA: Fine. Have a safe trip.

CRETAK: Thank you.

So in one week Senator Cretak will be on Romulus. The question is; how far away from Romulus is DS9? Well we know from ST:ENT's "Dead Stop", that Earth was approximately 150 light years from where the NX-01 had encountered Romulan ships about a planet they had claimed for the Star Empire, and mined the space around in the prior episode "Minefield". This is prior to the Earth-Romulan war, so it may provide a conservative distance. If we assume that Bajor is only 50 light years from Earth in the other direction, then we can say that the Bellerophon was capable of an average speed of 10,428c. that is assuming only 200 light years between DS9 and Romulus and the journey there took a full week. However the implication from the dialog is that Cretak would leave that day or the following day, and by that time the following week would already be on Romulus attending the conference. So likely the trip took less time than that. So 5-6 days, which would put the speed well past 12,000c. The distance also is likely much greater as well.
-Mike

[Youngla0450]

Stupid, this is. You stupid Star Trek fans are blind to the truth presented by Mr. Wong. If he was here he would give you all the Imperial Smackdown.

[Mith]

To get an idea of what Voyager would be capable of in well-charted space, we only need to see the performance of her sister ship the Bellerophon as seen in "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" in making the journey from Deep Space Nine to Romulus in less than a week. Here is the important dialog that constrains the trip's time:

KIRA: All right, that's it for today then. Same time next week? Oh sorry, Senator, you'll be attending that conference on Romulus, won't you?

CRETAK: Yes. But SubCommander Velal will be here in my place.

KIRA: Fine. Have a safe trip.

CRETAK: Thank you.

So in one week Senator Cretak will be on Romulus. The question is; how far away from Romulus is DS9? Well we know from ST:ENT's "Dead Stop", that Earth was approximately 150 light years from where the NX-01 had encountered Romulan ships about a planet they had claimed for the Star Empire, and mined the space around in the prior episode "Minefield". This is prior to the Earth-Romulan war, so it may provide a conservative distance. If we assume that Bajor is only 50 light years from Earth in the other direction, then we can say that the Bellerophon was capable of an average speed of 10,428c. that is assuming only 200 light years between DS9 and Romulus and the journey there took a full week. However the implication from the dialog is that Cretak would leave that day or the following day, and by that time the following week would already be on Romulus attending the conference. So likely the trip took less time than that. So 5-6 days, which would put the speed well past 12,000c. The distance also is likely much greater as well.
-Mike

Indeed, but I think a better idea is the USS Valiant. Remember, their mission was to circumnavigate the entire Federation in three months. The Federation is spread out over 8,000 light years, giving us around 32,467c of the USS Valiant. That's over 10,000c than what Voyager was stated to be capable of doing. At those speeds, it would only have taken Voyager 2.3 years to reach Earth.

Or one could look at First Contact, where midseason we're told that the Enterprise D is 2,000 light years away from Earth. Assuming (big thing here), that the Enterprise D spent its entire time traveling to said planet, that's 4,000c. Given the stated above speed of the Valiant however, they could have made the journey in less than a month.

It's also a point of contention that came up with Leo1 and me in one debate. He stated the limitations of UFP was around 1,000c (ie, Voyager), yet wanted to ignore the fact that the Dominion War, an entire series potraying the war in Federation space, was not potrayed in such a manner. Ie, the entire Federation was threatened, not just those within a thousand light years. Otherwise, the entire war would have lasted far, far longer. Hell, it would have taken years for the Federation to have even assembled its fleet in its entirety, let alone engage in battles. Even if the Dominion steamrolled the Federation, they'd only have taken, what, 3/8ths of it in the entire war's run? That's not even mentioning the Klingons and the Romulans.

[Mith]

Stupid, this is. You stupid Star Trek fans are blind to the truth presented by Mr. Wong. If he was here he would give you all the Imperial Smackdown.

Yes, how dare we use actual canon evidence to disprove Wong's ramblings.

Of course, you know, for someone like Wong, who loves to use the TMs to prove his claims, it outright indicates that warp speeds vary depending upon the area they're in. To quote Memory Alpha:

As evidenced in the chart above, actual speeds represented by a warp factor have not always been kept consistent throughout every Star Trek incarnation. Warp 8.4 would appear to be much faster than warp 9.9 or even warp 11. In fact, given the cited speed of warp 8.4, the Voyager crew (having some 70,000 light years to travel) should have made it home in approximately 33 days, not 75 years. And at Warp 9.9, at the above cited speed, Voyager should have been able to reach home in a little over 3 years.

To explain the apparent discontinuity of the canonical warp factor speeds, background sources have given several explanations. Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual states the actual speed values of a warp factor are dependent upon interstellar conditions, for example gas density, electric and magnetic fields in different regions of the galaxy, and fluctuations of the subspace domain. Also quantum drag forces and motive power oscillation cause energy penalties to a ship using warp drive.

In other words, the TMs, the background material (considered non-canon or semi-canon depending who you ask), reinforces our claims.

[Mith]

Of course, we could also look at SW speeds to, such as the Clone Wars.

We're told that the Malevolence has to take a 12 parsec detour around a nebula. That same nebula that Anakin had to navigate through. The problem is we're not given a strong amount of time. However, even assuming a day, that only gives SW 14,329c. Make that two days and it drops to 7,164c. At most it may have been four days, giving you 3,582c. There are also upper limits too. It could have for example, been 12 hours instead, giving you 28,658c or maybe even six hours for 57,316c...but that would be the absolute limit, with 12 hours being the highest reasonable numbers. It would mean that the Malevolence could cover Voyager's Journey in 2.6 years. The six hour figure would be 1.3 years.

But no doubt your fanboyish mind is going to start spinning even thinking about velocities that slow...

[Mike DiCenso]

I checked up on the episode ST:FC and found the following quote:

TROI: We've come with some important information.

MIRASTA: About what?

PICARD: About space. About the universe you are preparing to enter.

TROI: .We come from a federation of planets. Captain Picard is from a planet called Earth, which is over two thousand light years from here. I'm from another planet called Betazed

PICARD: We've been monitoring your progress toward warp-drive capability. When a society reaches your level of technology and is clearly about to initiate warp travel, we feel the time is right for first contact. We prefer meeting like this, rather than a random confrontation in deep space.

TROI: We've come to you first

So it looks like you were right, Mith. Good catch there. As this episode takes place in the middle of season four, it is only months after the E-D being at Earth to intercept the Borg in BOBW, part 2, and then to rest and have repairs in "Family". So for the E-D to have travelled 2,000 ly in such a short peroid of time requires no less than 4,000c assuming six months of not stopping anywhere for anything, and going in a straight line path out to Malcor III from Earth. However it is clear that our intrepid explorers were very busy as they had at least these adventures on the way out there:


"Brothers"

"Suddenly Human"

"Remember Me"

"Legacy"

"Reunion"

"Future Imperfect"

"Final Mission"

"The Loss"

"Data's Day"

"The Wounded"

"Devil's Due"

"Clues"

Twelve episodes between "Family" and "First Contact". Each one representing days or weeks of time that the crew had to deal with emergencies and other adventures all over the Federation from Cardassian space to the Romulan Neutral Zone and so on. So 4,000c is very definitely a lower limit here, not an upper one, and from an episode airing standpoint, the actual time was less than 5 months (150 or so days), so actually the E-D is making better than 4,800c to get out there.
-Mike

[Mith]

I checked up on the episode ST:FC and found the following quote:

TROI: We've come with some important information.

MIRASTA: About what?

PICARD: About space. About the universe you are preparing to enter.

TROI: .We come from a federation of planets. Captain Picard is from a planet called Earth, which is over two thousand light years from here. I'm from another planet called Betazed

PICARD: We've been monitoring your progress toward warp-drive capability. When a society reaches your level of technology and is clearly about to initiate warp travel, we feel the time is right for first contact. We prefer meeting like this, rather than a random confrontation in deep space.

TROI: We've come to you first

So it looks like you were right, Mith. Good catch there. As this episode takes place in the middle of season four, it is only months after the E-D being at Earth to intercept the Borg in BOBW, part 2, and then to rest and have repairs in "Family". So for the E-D to have travelled 2,000 ly in such a short peroid of time requires no less than 4,000c assuming six months of not stopping anywhere for anything, and going in a straight line path out to Malcor III from Earth. However it is clear that our intrepid explorers were very busy as they had at least these adventures on the way out there:


"Brothers"

"Suddenly Human"

"Remember Me"

"Legacy"

"Reunion"

"Future Imperfect"

"Final Mission"

"The Loss"

"Data's Day"

"The Wounded"

"Devil's Due"

"Clues"

Twelve episodes between "Family" and "First Contact". Each one representing days or weeks of time that the crew had to deal with emergencies and other adventures all over the Federation from Cardassian space to the Romulan Neutral Zone and so on. So 4,000c is very definitely a lower limit here, not an upper one, and from an episode airing standpoint, the actual time was less than 5 months (150 or so days), so actually the E-D is making better than 4,800c to get out there.
-Mike

Yes, but the greatest prize is in fact, The Chase. Where they cross tens of thousands of lightyears in just days. =D

[Mike DiCenso]

Yes, but the greatest prize is in fact, The Chase. Where they cross tens of thousands of lightyears in just days. =D

Yes, "The Chase" is important, however it is necessary to have episodes like "First Contact" to back it up by showing that it is not a statistical outlier, and is part of a large body of evidence showing speeds vastly in excess of a few thousand c are rather routine in well-charted territory.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Stupid, this is. You stupid Star Trek fans are blind to the truth presented by Mr. Wong. If he was here he would give you all the Imperial Smackdown.

Wong won't come here because he knows he'll get his butt handed to him, if he does. He can only give the SDN Smackdown to people who wander into his forum where he has absolute control over everything there, and he can bask in the glow of adoration from his personality cultists.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

Stupid, this is. You stupid Star Trek fans are blind to the truth presented by Mr. Wong. If he was here he would give you all the Imperial Smackdown.

Yes, this would be offering insult, and against the rules. Don't, please.

[Picard]

About warp speeds, it seems that speed in unexplored area is around 21 000 c with up to 50 000 000 c in explored space.

[Mike DiCenso]

No, most of the time in explored space, the average speed is in the tens of thousands of c, not 50 million c. The fastest speed we know of in Trek is the journey to the center of the galaxy in ST:TFF, and that only nets around 20 million c, not 50 million.

In unexplored space, a warp driven starship might be able to maintain 21,400c for a brief time, but not indefinitely enough to get them home in any reasonable amount of time. They have to make far too many stops.
-Mike