Register    Login    Forum    Members   Search    FAQ

Board index » Discussion and Debate » Other




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 600 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 40  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: All about Serafina (Split)
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:16 pm 
Offline
Starship Captain
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:00 pm
Posts: 1150
Location: Germany
I will not reply to what Serafina has written. If at all, his lasts posts have confirmed my decision to end that pseudo-debate.

If anyone has a question, if anyone has not understood what I have tried to explain, I’m ready to try to answer each here asked question. It may be necessary to send me a PM because I will not check that thread regularly.

But before you ask your question, I have to ask you to ask yourself a few questions:

Imagine your mother, father, sister, brother, daughter, son or anyone else you know comes to you and you are asked to address that person in the future as if the person has the opposite sex to the sex the person really has. The person admits to be a transsexual.

You love that person and you really believe that you understand the problems a transsexual has and you want to help that person. You do not feel uncomfortable around that person. Your feelings haven’t changed. You have no insurmountable problem if that person acts from now on accordingly to its gender (e.g. your father wears woman-clothes) or even makes a gender reassignment. You are even ready to pay for it if it helps that person to find peace. It may be necessary to get used to this, but it is possible.

But now you have to address e.g. your mother as if she were a man or your father as if he were a woman.

There are three possibilities: Either you really start to think of this person that way (1), you only pretend to think of this person that way (2) or you are honest if you cannot think of this person that way (3).

  1. If you really think of them that way, it is no problem to address the person as requested.

  2. If you still think of the person according to the person’s sex, using another grammar gender is nothing more than an act. You can address e.g. you mother as if she had a male sex, but you will always think of her as a woman.

  3. And you can say that you will always support the person but that it will be next to impossible to start to think of e.g. your mother as if she were a man. And because you want to be honest with her and not pretend to think something you are not thinking, you do not want to address her as if she were a man. It wouldn’t be real anyway if you do not really mean it – a fortiori if she knows that you do not mean it.



Now to my questions:

  • Do you think you could learn to address that person as requested?


  • Do you think it would be difficult to always remember to address that person as requested?


  • Do you think that you would only address that person as requested as long as the person is present, but otherwise would speak of that person accordingly to the sex?

  • Do you think you could start to think of that person as requested?


  • Do you think it would be difficult to start to think of that person as requested?


  • Do you think that it is honest to address that person contrary to what you are thinking?


  • Do you think that it is consequent from this person to be satisfied because the person is addressed by you as requested but knows that it is not real because you do not think that way and the person knows it?

  • Do you think that it is reasonable at all to demand to change your thinking?


  • Do you think that it is maybe selfish to demand from you to address that person as requested when this person knows that it would never be real anyway, nothing more than a façade that does not changes anything because you simply can't forget the actual sex of that person and start to think of that person as requested?



If you have a question now, I’m more than willing to try to answer it.

Of course, I’m also more than willing to read any factual comments or your thoughts on that topic.

I’m not above learning and I’m able to change my mind.

Of course it is always important how an argument is presented. Insults often times have the affect to antagonize someone and are usually not able to create good will or sympathy.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: All about Serafina (Split)
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:27 am 
Offline
Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:31 pm
Posts: 546
So why did you go back to calling her a him?


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: All about Serafina (Split)
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:26 pm 
Offline
Starship Captain
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:00 pm
Posts: 1150
Location: Germany
I haven’t.

I have gone back to call him an him.

Out of respect for JediMaster Spock I agreed to address Serafina as if he were a woman.

But I said from the beginning that I think this is wrong.

Regardless of his gender, his sex is and always will be male.

And for the addressing of an individual, that is what is important.

If you look at my posts, you will maybe notice that I have put much effort into trying to avoid a third personal pronoun when talking about Serafina.

Sometimes it was not possible and I had to use such a personal pronoun.

But I always had to remind me to use the female personal pronoun instead of the male.

It was going against my grasp of language and my thinking – as I have tried to describe.

I have given Serafina the chance to explain why I should address someone with a male sex as if that someone has a female sex only because that someone has a female gender.

Instead of explanations I got insults.

According to Serafina, I’m a discriminating, intolerant bigot of the worst kind who is comparable to the Nazis, American-Christian fundamentalists, white supremacist, gay-hating groups etc. and who believes in the purity of the master-language. He even used in that context the phrase » mein Führer «.

Why again should I bend my way of thinking and speaking for him or pretend something from which he and I know that it is not true?

Out of courtesy?

Out of respect?

Because he is such a nice dude?

I do not think so.

I know he has a male sex and a female gender. He cans life as he wants. But he has to adhere to the rules as every other person too. That means he gets addressed as every other person with a male sex and can do what every other person with a male sex is allowed to do.

I do not care if he wants to wear woman clothes and act like a woman as I do not care if another man wants to do that or a woman wants to wear man clothes and act like a man.

I even would support the introduction of further categories in the civil status, identification cards, passports etc. Additional to the sex, there can be a column for the gender and in addition to the birth-name, there can be a column for the chosen name. But to make false entries into such documents, to claim that someone with a male sex has a female sex, is simply wrong.

The problem is that Serafina is ashamed to be someone with a male sex and female gender and wants to hide the fact that he has a male sex.

He not only wants to be treated as a woman, he even claims to be a woman although a woman has always also a female sex.

That’s delusional.

His problem is that he only thinks in man and woman categories and cannot imagine being something between both or something that is neither.

Usually I wouldn’t even fault him for thinking in that way because his thinking is as much affected by the German language as my thinking. And as there is no other sex in the German language, it is only logical in its own distorted way for Serafina to conclude that if he is no man, he has to be a woman.

Maybe, if the transsexuals in Western societies are beginning to be a little bit more open-minded, they would see that this is not the necessary conclusion. They would consider the possibility of being something that is neither a woman nor a man but something else.

If they start to think that way, one day there may exist two or more commonly used terms for what transgenders are in all Western languages that are not merely derivations of man or woman.

In South Asia there are such terms already: For example in India there are people who are called hijra. These are physiological males who adopt feminine gender identity, women's clothing and other feminine gender roles – or with other words, they are what we would call transwoman. But unlike some Western transsexual women, hijras generally do not attempt to pass as women. Reportedly, few have genital modifications. Their identities have no exact match in the modern Western taxonomy of gender and sexual orientation, and challenge Western ideas of sex and gender [O].
Since the late 20th century, some hijra activists and Western non-government organizations (NGOs) have been lobbying for official recognition of the hijra as a kind of "third sex" or "third gender", as neither man nor woman.

Maybe someday the German language will have similar terms and will have developed further grammar genders respective noun classes as there are in other languages more than two or three genders respective noun classes too (Swahili for example has 18 genders) [O].

Until then in the German and English language a man, even a man with a female gender, stays a man and is addressed like a man.

That has nothing to do with purity of the master-language but with the simple fact that a change in language in a free nation cannot be enforced. The language has to change as it always has changed: By a more or less inartificial development. Some changes need more time than other changes. The introduction of foreign terms may be easier and thus faster than a change in the fundamental grammar of a language.

If Serafina is not satisfied with that, it may be better if he conceals the fact that he has a male gender and deceives others in believing him to be a woman, a person with a female sex.

But honesty is that not.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: All about Serafina (Split)
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:43 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Posts: 5957
Location: Paradise Mountain
Quote:
According to Serafina, I’m a discriminating, intolerant bigot of the worst kind who is comparable to the Nazis, American-Christian fundamentalists, white supremacist, gay-hating groups etc. and who believes in the purity of the master-language. He even used in that context the phrase » mein Führer «.


Huh. It went that far?
This, because in the entire history of humanity, it's only been recently and through the "help" of technology, that some very, very few people could chose to be butchered up and down, in and out, and now the overall society should consider normal what looks more like a psychological disorder of someone who can't accept his/her baseline fleshy vessel?
There is inertia in everything, and it's equally absurd to be so violent against the vast majority of people who still think in ways which have not changed much since we started growing a bigger brain.
I'd also add that we have reached an age when people are really encouraged to hate themselves.
As for the gay hate, perhaps it should be pointed out that not all homosexuals see themselves as gays. Nonetheless, the gays movements have decided they represented all homosexuals. Do not be surprised to hear about homosexuals who come very close to hating gays.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: All about Serafina (Split)
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:13 pm 
Offline
Starship Captain

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:33 pm
Posts: 1246
Mr. Oragahn wrote:

Huh. It went that far?
This, because in the entire history of humanity, it's only been recently and through the "help" of technology, that some very, very few people could chose to be butchered up and down, in and out, and now the overall society should consider normal what looks more like a psychological disorder of someone who can't accept his/her baseline fleshy vessel?.


That is a interesting perspective actually:-

Is somebody who desires to have a full gender change mearly a homosexual who hates/cannot their bodies natural,original state?.

It could be i suppose as i know a few guys who are homosexual but have no interest in changing sex in fact i discussed this ver thing with one of them today and mentioned serafinas attitude and showed him a few of the posts and he agreed with me that the contained a lot of rage and hate.

Quote:
There is inertia in everything, and it's equally absurd to be so violent against the vast majority of people who still think in ways which have not changed much since we started growing a bigger brain.


Also true although after the race and homosexual rights movments we should be more accepting overall or at least more prepared to be so.

Quote:
I'd also add that we have reached an age when people are really encouraged to hate themselves.


I think that is a oversimplification of a complex issue although the media and other areas that doo add to that problem are far ahead of the ways to prevent or treat it.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: All about Serafina (Split)
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:20 am 
Offline
Starship Captain

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:33 pm
Posts: 1246
Quote:
So you are now smarter than psychologists, doctors and scientists now, eh?


Where do i claim to be?, i said it was a interesting perspective, then asked a question and said maybe.


Quote:
As for hate - i hate bigots, i can't stand them. That's the hate in my posts, it is hardly directed at me.


While you hate is obviously directed outwards and SDN seems to be a perfect forum for you to vent it on you do scream "bigot" a lot even when it does not apply.

Quote:
And believe me, if you had to live in a wrong gender role for about twenty years, you won't be without some bitterness - and if you finally notice what's wrong with you, you will be angry if any people want to stop you from being happy.


The last 20 of your years are your problem not mine or anybody elses and claiming that i or any other poster can "deny you happiness" is just a very weak excuse for you to unleash some of your bottled up hate.......we have no ability to deny you anything simply by posting on a forum unless you wish to control our opinions and in that case you do need some serious help.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: All about Serafina (Split)
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:03 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:26 pm
Posts: 2078
Who is like God arbour wrote:
If they start to think that way, one day there may exist two or more commonly used terms for what transgenders are in all Western languages that are not merely derivations of man or woman.

In South Asia there are such terms already: For example in India there are people who are called hijra. These are physiological males who adopt feminine gender identity, women's clothing and other feminine gender roles – or with other words, they are what we would call transwoman. But unlike some Western transsexual women, hijras generally do not attempt to pass as women. Reportedly, few have genital modifications. Their identities have no exact match in the modern Western taxonomy of gender and sexual orientation, and challenge Western ideas of sex and gender [O].
Since the late 20th century, some hijra activists and Western non-government organizations (NGOs) have been lobbying for official recognition of the hijra as a kind of "third sex" or "third gender", as neither man nor woman.

Maybe someday the German language will have similar terms and will have developed further grammar genders respective noun classes as there are in other languages more than two or three genders respective noun classes too (Swahili for example has 18 genders) [O].

Until then in the German and English language a man, even a man with a female gender, stays a man and is addressed like a man.

As I pointed out to you earlier, there are ways to handle this problem in English currently, and that happens to be the language we've carried this discussion out in. They are polite and effective even if they may not be what you learned from English textbooks.

The general movement in English for properly polite referral of transgendered persons has been in theory towards gender-neutral pronouns that sidestep the issue entirely, but most of the invented gender-neutral pronouns are used primarily for, by, or around transgendered individuals. If they make it into common usage, are likely to carry the meaning that someone is of ambiguous, changed, or non-conventional gender.

"One" may be used effectively in place of a gendered pronoun. "One" is both perfectly proper grammatically, and does not carry a grammatical gender (as it does in German via suffixes). The only problem with it is that it may sound awkwardly formal and academic if used frequently. Informally, the singular "they" as a gender-neutral term of address has been in use for quite some time. See here. It briefly was recommended in a fairly authoritative manual of style and has a long body of historical use; descriptively, it is in very wide use, especially among the younger generation in America.

Older English teachers might call it "improper," since previous generations were taught to use "he" as a gender-neutral pronoun (I'm not making this up), but that's clearly where the language has moved on its own, even if the style manuals by and large have not caught up with current usage.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Transsexuality and Rights - challenge to WILGA
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:52 pm 
Offline
Bridge Officer

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:42 pm
Posts: 188
This is a formal challenge to Who is like God arbour, since he terminated the cross-board debate.
Please do not post in this thread unless you are WILGA, an administrator or me. A commentary thread to this one is of course no problem.
I propose that both WILGA and i have a limit of five debate replies, excluding questions for clarification etc., as well as a time limit of 48 hours between replies until notice is given in advance. WILGA can of course propose changes to these terms per PM, such changes will be posted here.
As in any formal debate, statements are to be backed up by evidence. Questions and challenges of the opponent have to be addressed or conceded.

According with the rules of this forum, no insults or personal attacks will occur.

My position in this debate is simply that it is necessary for the well-being of transsexuals (or everyone for that matter) that they are treated according to their gender, exacvtly like other members of their gender (transwomen like other women etc.) regardless of their sex. I further claim that not doing so is a violation of human rights.
WILGA disagrees with this, it is up to him to explain why.

As soon as WILGA acknowledges this debate, i will make my opening argument.

Regards
Fina


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: All about Serafina (Split)
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:18 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Posts: 5957
Location: Paradise Mountain
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:

Huh. It went that far?
This, because in the entire history of humanity, it's only been recently and through the "help" of technology, that some very, very few people could chose to be butchered up and down, in and out, and now the overall society should consider normal what looks more like a psychological disorder of someone who can't accept his/her baseline fleshy vessel?.


That is a interesting perspective actually:-

Is somebody who desires to have a full gender change mearly a homosexual who hates/cannot their bodies natural,original state?.


That, I don't know. Could be. You'd have to ask 'em.

Quote:
It could be i suppose as i know a few guys who are homosexual but have no interest in changing sex in fact i discussed this ver thing with one of them today and mentioned serafinas attitude and showed him a few of the posts and he agreed with me that the contained a lot of rage and hate.


Considering the few bits I read here, it seems to be the case. There is a problem in that the societies don't know how to handle that phenomenon. And I'm talking about occidental societies.
We often hear about men going women more than the other way round, and generally, there's a phantasm about the sexual power of feminine curves that expresses itself. In general, trannies really seem to dress up in a way as to exhibit their rearranged plastic. They don't seem to aim for a true casual style of dressing. That's, at least, from the impression I get for everything I've seen and heard about them. There is not even a form of discretion. It has to show off, somehow.
Frankly I tried to explain this to myself, and after a couple of err... maybe... nah... here's what I'd say:
It seems that they desire to possess the objectified perfect feminine body of another woman so strongly, and are so... blinded, intoxicated by this teasing power or something which for some reason they don't manage to obtain because, perhaps, of their lack of manlyhood or something, that they may metaphorically "snap" and decide to express that desire, or more precisely taste that power women have, by becoming what they desire so much.

Now, a transsexual better has to have been through really well done ops otherwise it sticks out and it's fugly, FUBAR. For example a male face has certain characteristics which even the greatest work on plastic may not change, like the height of the eyes relative to the center of the face.
When it's not done properly, and thus when it sticks out, it is repulsive to me. It just looks as bad as women filling their face with botox.
How is that an improvement of our societies, I really can't tell. Sometimes it's borderline madness.
I'll notice that this transsexual culture/debate/phenomenon has never appeared as strong as when feminism was really shoved down the throats of all women and men.

Quote:
Quote:
There is inertia in everything, and it's equally absurd to be so violent against the vast majority of people who still think in ways which have not changed much since we started growing a bigger brain.


Also true although after the race and homosexual rights movments we should be more accepting overall or at least more prepared to be so.


Well things change. In a distant time, men used to have sex with what we call minors, although it involved teens around 14 to 16 years old. Each age and society has its good points and bad points, all of which is just as relative as it can get.
Homosexuality has often been well assumed in most Japanese societies. Then things changed. But when I say homosexuality, I don't speak of the equivalent of gay in medieval times. Unless it wasn't clear, I clearly separate homosexuality from that gay movement, that's also very new.

Quote:
Quote:
I'd also add that we have reached an age when people are really encouraged to hate themselves.


I think that is a oversimplification of a complex issue although the media and other areas that doo add to that problem are far ahead of the ways to prevent or treat it.


No really, look at it. Everything on TV really drives you to hate yourself if you don't have the life of the beautiful stars. Every manipulated ad, be it on TV, on the radio, over the walls in the subway or on the pages of the paper junk millions upon millions of women read everyday, tell people to douse themselves in pools of Q10 mierda and whatnot, and use quintillions of chemicals to remain shiny, peppy and young forever.
And now it's even required from men, and there's that metrosexual culture that's really disconnected from reality and which promotes that BS.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: All about Serafina (Split)
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:03 pm 
Offline
Bridge Officer

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:42 pm
Posts: 188
FYI, i challenged WILGA to a formal debate about this.

But since i am already registered here, i might as well address some prejudices.

Quote:
That, I don't know. Could be. You'd have to ask 'em.

As i already said in the thread on SD.Net, therapy is mandatory for transsexuals. One of the primary purposes of that therapy is to make sure that one is actually transsexual instead of a repressed homosexual or some form of self-hate.
Hence - no, not really. Transsexuals quite often hate their body, but only because their body is completely wrong for them.
It's a symptom, not a cause.

By the way, transsexuality and homosexuality are two different things.
Homosexuality is simply about who you are attracted to.
Transsexuality is simply about who you ARE.
Most people never ask that question - and indeed, the only reason transsexuals may think that their gender is identical with their sex (which it isn't) is because society forces them to. That can be everything from silent indoctrination to outright forcing it. But like everyone else, you do not decide on your gender identity if you are a transsexual - you merely discover it. Most people do not have to do that, since it is clear anyway.
There are, of course, homosexual transsexuals (i am a lesbian for example) - and again, checking whether one is merely
a repressed homosexual instead of transsexual is one of the primary purposes of therapy.


Quote:
We often hear about men going women more than the other way round, and generally, there's a phantasm about the sexual power of feminine curves that expresses itself. In general, trannies really seem to dress up in a way as to exhibit their rearranged plastic. They don't seem to aim for a true casual style of dressing. That's, at least, from the impression I get for everything I've seen and heard about them. There is not even a form of discretion. It has to show off, somehow.

"Trannie" is a derogatory term like e.g. "fag". Please don't use it.
So is "it" - transsexuals are people, not items.
You clearly have no actual contact with transsexuals. Of course, some are overcompensating - but you can't make a general statement based on a few people.
Indeed, nearly all transsexuals i know (which should be OOMs more than you do) want to achieve "stealth" - living as a woman (or man) without being recognized as transsexual.

By the way, transmen (female->male) and transwomen (male->female) are roughly equal in numbers. Transmen are simply much less visible - no one things anything about a "woman" wearing male clothing.
As a note, i am going to talk about transwomen for sake of simplicity mostly, but nearly all of what i say is also true for transmen.

Quote:
Frankly I tried to explain this to myself, and after a couple of err... maybe... nah... here's what I'd say:
It seems that they desire to possess the objectified perfect feminine body of another woman so strongly, and are so... blinded, intoxicated by this teasing power or something which for some reason they don't manage to obtain because, perhaps, of their lack of manlyhood or something, that they may metaphorically "snap" and decide to express that desire, or more precisely taste that power women have, by becoming what they desire so much.

Simply not true.
This is a prejudice, but as i said - as long as one is willing to change ones mind, there is notning bad about that.
There is very strong evidence that transsexuality is simply a female brain in a male body and vice versa.
For example, most transsexuals already express their desire as young children at the age where gender identity in general is recognized (as soon as children see a difference between male and female). There are also recent scientific studies that show that a transwomans brain is very similar to that of a biological female.

Being transsexual is NOT about desiring women so much that you want to be one. It's simply about being a woman and wanting to live like one.

Quote:
Now, a transsexual better has to have been through really well done ops otherwise it sticks out and it's fugly, FUBAR. For example a male face has certain characteristics which even the greatest work on plastic may not change, like the height of the eyes relative to the center of the face.

Those are not generally recognized as gender differences.
But yes, a transwoman has to do quite some work to achive an acceptable passing - in general, it's easiest to simply start hormone treatment when puberty hits, since that prevents most of the damage that would otherwise be done by testosterone.
But in general, a large number of transwomen can achieve passing (being seen as a woman) without hormone treatment or surgery.

Quote:
When it's not done properly, and thus when it sticks out, it is repulsive to me. It just looks as bad as women filling their face with botox.

Well, to be frank - that's your problem.

Quote:
How is that an improvement of our societies, I really can't tell. Sometimes it's borderline madness.
I'll notice that this transsexual culture/debate/phenomenon has never appeared as strong as when feminism was really shoved down the throats of all women and men.

:roll:
Feminism wasn't "shoved down the throats" of anybody. Sure, you have some extremists - but feminism is simply about the rights of women, and i don't see how anything could be wrong with that.
As for transsexuality - that's about the well-being of transsexuals. There is no harm done to society, but there IS great harm to transsexuals if society doesn't permit it.

Quote:
No really, look at it. Everything on TV really drives you to hate yourself if you don't have the life of the beautiful stars. Every manipulated ad, be it on TV, on the radio, over the walls in the subway or on the pages of the paper junk millions upon millions of women read everyday, tell people to douse themselves in pools of Q10 mierda and whatnot, and use quintillions of chemicals to remain shiny, peppy and young forever.
And now it's even required from men, and there's that metrosexual culture that's really disconnected from reality and which promotes that BS.

And what's bad about that? How is that self-hate?
Give me a valid reason why this should be bad, other than your opinion.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: All about Serafina (Split)
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:30 pm 
Offline
Starship Captain

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:33 pm
Posts: 1246

Are There Differences between the Brains of Males and Females?


That men and women are different, everyone knows that.

But, aside from external anatomical and primary and secondary sexual differences, scientists know also that there are many other subtle differences in the way the brains from men and women process language, information, emotion, cognition, etc.

One of the most interesting differences appear in the way men and women estimate time, judge speed of things, carry out mental mathematical calculations, orient in space and visualize objects in three dimensions, etc. In all these tasks, women and men are strikingly different, as they are too in the way their brains process language. This may account, scientists say, for the fact that there are many more male mathematicians, airplane pilots, bush guides, mechanical engineers, architects and race car drivers than female ones.

On the other hand, women are better than men in human relations, recognizing emotional overtones in others and in language, emotional and artistic expressiveness, esthetic appreciation, verbal language and carrying out detailed and pre-planned tasks. For example, women generally can recall lists of words or paragraphs of text better than men.

The "father" of sociobiology, Edward O. Wilson, of Harvard University, said that human females tend to be higher than males in empathy, verbal skills, social skills and security-seeking, among other things, while men tend to be higher in independence, dominance, spatial and mathematical skills, rank-related aggression, and other characteristics.

When all these investigations began, scientists were skeptical about the role of genes and of biological differences, because cultural learning is very powerful and influential among humans. Are girls more prone to play with dolls and cooperate among themselves than boys, because they are taught to be so by parents, teachers and social peers, or is it the reverse order?

However, gender differences are already apparent from just a few months after birth, when social influence is still small. For example, Anne Moir and David Jessel, in their remarkable and controversial book "Brain Sex", offer explanations for these very early differences in children:

"These discernible, measurable differences in behaviour have been imprinted long before external influences have had a chance to get to work. They reflect a basic difference in the newborn brain which we already know about -- the superior male efficiency in spatial ability, the greater female skill in speech."

But now, after many careful controlled studies where environment and social learning were ruled out, scientists learned that there may exist a great deal of neurophysiological and anatomical differences between the brains of males and females.

Studying Differences in the Brain

There are now a number of sophisticated neuroscientific methods which allow scientists to probe minute differences between any two groups of brains. There are several approaches, brought forth by advancements in computerized image processing, such as tomography (detailed imaging of the brain using "slices"):


1. volumetric measurements of brain parts: a region is defined, and the computer, working with a pile of slices, calculates the areas of the brain region, and then integrates numerically several areas in order to calculate its approximate volume. Statistical analysis of samples containing several brains are able to discover (or not) any differences in volume, thickness, etc.
2. functional imaging: using advanced devices, such as PET (Positron Emission Tomography), fMRI (functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging) or Brain Topographic Electroencephalography, researchers are able to visualize in two and three dimensions what parts of brain are functionally activated when a given task is performed by the subjects.
3. post-mortem examinations. The brains of deceased individuals are excised and sliced. Modern image analysis techniques are used to detect quantitative differences, such as the number and form of neurons and other brain cells, the area, thickness and volumes of brain regions, etc.


Scientists working at Johns Hopkins University, recently reporting in the "Cerebral Cortex" scholarly journal, have discovered that there is a brain region in the cortex, called inferior-parietal lobule (IPL) which is significantly larger in men than in women. This area is bilateral and is located just above the level of the ears (parietal cortex).

Furthermore, the left side IPL is larger in men than the right side. In women, this asymmetry is reversed, although the difference between left and right sides is not so large as in men, noted the JHU researchers. This is the same area which was shown to be larger in the brain of Albert Einstein, as well as in other physicists and mathematicians. So, it seems that IPL's size correlates highly with mental mathematical abilities. Morphological brain differences in intellectual skills were suspected to exist by neurologists since the times of phrenology (although this was proved to be a wrong approach), in the 19th century. The end of the 20th century has witnessed the first scientific proofs for that.

The study, led by Dr. Godfrey Pearlson, was performed by analyzing the MRI scans of 15 men and women. Volumes were calculated by a software package developed by Dr. Patrick Barta, a JHU psychiatrist. After allowing for the natural differences in overall brain volume which exist between the brains of men and women, there was still a difference of 5% between the IPL volumes (human male brains are, on average, approximately 10% larger than female, but this is because of men's larger body size: more muscle cells imply more neurons to control them).

In general, the IPL allows the brain to process information from senses and help in selective attention and perception (for example, women are more able to focus on specific stimuli, such as a baby crying in the night). Studies have linked the right IPL with the memory involved in understanding and manipulating spatial relationships and the ability to sense relationships between body parts. It is also related to the perception of our own affects or feelings. The left IPL is involved with perception of time and speed, and the ability of mentally rotate 3-D figures (as in the well-known Tetris game).

Another previous study by the same group led by Dr. Godfrey Pearlson has shown that two areas in the frontal and temporal lobes related to language (the areas of Broca and Wernicke, named after their discoverers) were significantly larger in women, thus providing a biological reason for women's notorious superiority in language-associated thoughts. Using magnetic resonance imaging, the scientists measured gray matter volumes in several cortical regions in 17 women and 43 men. Women had 23% (in Broca's area, in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex) and 13% (in Wernicke's area, in the superior temporal cortex) more volume than men.

These results were later corroborated by another research group from the School of Communication Disorders, University of Sydney, Australia, which was able to prove these anatomical differences in the areas of Wernicke and of Broca. The volume of the Wernicke's area was 18% larger in females compared with males, and the cortical volume the Broca's area in females was 20% larger than in males.

On the other hand, additional evidence comes from research showing that the corpus callosum, a large tract of neural fibers which connect both brain hemispheres, is enlarged in women, compared to men, although this discovery has been challenged recently.

In another research, a group from the University of Cincinnati, USA, Canada, presented morphological evidence that while men have more neurons in the cerebral cortex, women have a more developed neuropil, or the space between cell bodies, which contains synapses, dendrites and axons, and allows for communication among neurons. According to Dr. Gabrielle de Courten-Myers, this research may explain why women are more prone to dementia (such as Alzheimer's disease) than men, because although both may lose the same number of neurons due to the disease, "in males, the functional reserve may be greater as a larger number of nerve cells are present, which could prevent some of the functional losses."

The researchers made measurements on slices of brains of 17 deceased persons (10 males and seven females), such as the cortex thickness and number of neurons in several places of the cortex.

Other researchers, led by Dr. Bennett A. Shaywitz, a professor of Pediatrics at the Yale University School of Medicine, discovered that the brain of women processes verbal language simultaneously in the two sides (hemispheres) of the frontal brain, while men tend to process it in the left side only. They performed a functional planar magnetic resonance tomographic imaging of the brains of 38 right-handed subjects (19 males and 19 females). The difference was demonstrated in a test that asked subjects to read a list of nonsense words and determine if they rhyme. Curiously, oriental people which use pictographic (or ideographic) written languages tend also to use both sides of the brain, regardless of gender.

Although most of the anatomical and functional studies done so far have focused on the cerebral cortex, which is responsible for the higher intellectual and cognitive functions of the brain, other researchers, such as Dr. Simon LeVay, have shown that there are gender differences in more primitive parts of the brain, such as the hypothalamus, where most of the basic functions of life are controlled, including hormonal control via the pituitary gland. LeVay discovered that the volume of a specific nucleus in the hypothalamus (third cell group of the interstitial nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus) is twice as large in heterosexual men than in women and homosexual men, thus prompting a heated debate whether there is a biological basis for homosexuality. Dr. LeVay wrote an interesting book about the sex differences in the brain, titled "The Sexual Brain".



Evolution versus Environment

What is the reason for these gender differences in structure and function?

According to the Society for Neuroscience, the largest professional organization in this area, evolution is what gives sense to it. "In ancient times, each sex had a very defined role that helped ensure the survival of the species. Cave men hunted. Cave women gathered food near the home and cared for the children. Brain areas may have been sharpened to enable each sex to carry out their jobs". Prof. David Geary, at the University of Missouri, USA, a researcher in the area of gender differences, thinks that "in evolutionary terms, developing superior navigation skills may have enabled men to become better suited to the role of hunter, while the development by females of a preference for landmarks may have enabled them to fulfill the task of gathering food closer to home." The advantage of women regarding verbal skills also make evolutionary sense. While men have the bodily strength to compete with other men, women use language to gain social advantage, such as by argumentation and persuasion, says Geary.

Author Deborah Blum, who wrote "Sex on the Brain: The Biological Differences Between Men and Women", has reported the current trend towards assigning evolutionary reasons for many of our behaviors. She says: "Morning sickness, for example, which steers some women away from strong tastes and smells, may once have protected babes in utero from toxic items. Infidelity is a way for men to ensure genetic immortality. Interestingly, when we deliberately change sex-role behavior -- say, men become more nurturing or women more aggressive -- our hormones and even our brains respond by changing, too."

During the development of the embryo in the womb, circulating hormones have a very important role in the sexual differentiation of the brain. The presence of androgens in early life produces a "male" brain. In contrast, the female brain is thought to develop via a hormonal default mechanism, in the absence of androgen. However, recent findings have shows that ovarian hormones also play a significant role in sexual differentiation.

One of the most convincing evidences for the role of hormones, has been shown by studying girls who were exposed to high levels of testosterone because their pregnant mothers had congenital adrenal hyperplasia. These girls seem to have better spatial awareness than other girls and are more likely to show turbulent and aggressive behaviour as kids, very similar to boys'.


Fact and Prejudice
But do these differences mean a superiority/inferiority relationship between men and women?

"No", says Dr. Pearlson. "To say this means that men are automatically better at some things than women is a simplification. It's easy to find women who are fantastic at math and physics and men who excel in language skills. Only when we look at very large populations and look for slight but significant trends do we see the generalizations. There are plenty of exceptions, but there's also a grain of truth, revealed through the brain structure, that we think underlies some of the ways people characterize the sexes."

Dr. Courten-Myers concurs: "The recognition of gender-specific ways of thinking and feeling -- rendered more credible given these established differences -- could prove beneficial in enhancing interpersonal relationships. However, the interpretation of the data also has the potential for abuse and harm if either gender would seek to construct evidence for superiority of the male or female brain from these findings."

The conclusion is that neuroscience has made great strides in the 90s, regarding the discovery of concrete, scientifically proved anatomical and functional differences between the brains of males and females. While this knowledge could in theory be used to justify misogyny and prejudice against women, fortunately this has not happened. In fact, this new knowledge may help physicians and scientists to discover new ways to explore the brain differences in the benefit of the treatment of diseases, the personalized action of drugs, different procedures in surgeries, etc. After all, males and females differ only by one Y chromosome, but this makes a real impact upon the way we react to so many things, including pain, hormones, etc.


QUESTION


Is your position confirmed or denied by the above scientific studies?.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: All about Serafina (Split)
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:50 pm 
Offline
Bridge Officer

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:42 pm
Posts: 188
Kor wrote:
Is your position confirmed or denied by the above scientific studies?.

How about actually linking to such studies?

But other than that - yes, they are actually confirming what i am saying.
Essentially, recent science agrees that there are differences between male and female brains. Scientific studies also suggest that transwomen have female brains.
There is not yet a consensus about the reason for this (one possible reason is that androgen receptors in the brain do not work properly), but these studies are pretty clear - the brain simply developed female.

Gender and sex are much more complicated than just genitalia and chromosomes.
This is one fine example of this - identity is essentially defined by the brain, and a transwomans brain is simply female.

Hence, my position:
Transwomen are women and are to be treated as such in all respects.
We can mostly fix the body, hence it ought to be done.

So far, scientific evidence agrees with me.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: All about Serafina (Split)
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:32 pm 
Offline
Starship Captain

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:33 pm
Posts: 1246
Serafina wrote:
Kor wrote:
Is your position confirmed or denied by the above scientific studies?.

How about actually linking to such studies?

But other than that - yes, they are actually confirming what i am saying.
Essentially, recent science agrees that there are differences between male and female brains.

Scientific studies also suggest that transwomen have female brains.


So far, scientific evidence agrees with me.


The studies i was refering to are the ones mentioned above proving that male and female brains work differantly.

But you are saying they have been done AND that transwomen have female brians so would you please provide a link as i would like to read it.


Last edited by Kor_Dahar_Master on Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: All about Serafina (Split)
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:51 pm 
Offline
Bridge Officer

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:42 pm
Posts: 188
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Serafina wrote:
How about actually linking to such studies?

But other than that - yes, they are actually confirming what i am saying.
Essentially, recent science agrees that there are differences between male and female brains.

Scientific studies also suggest that transwomen have female brains.


So far, scientific evidence agrees with me.


The studies i was refering to are the ones mentioned above proving that male and female brains work differantly.

But you are saying they have been done AND that transwomen have female brians so would you please provide a link as i would like to read it.


Why yes, of course.
A quick Google search reveals such evidence in abundance, cited in prominent scientific magazines. They clearly show that transwomen have female brains.
I would not say that this is yet definitive (that always take a lot of work in science), but it's pretty strong evidence and fits with the observed development and characteristics of transsexuals.
(Hint: Use Google Scholar if you want to find scientifc studies).


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Transsexuality and Rights - challenge to WILGA
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:15 pm 
Offline
Starship Captain
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:00 pm
Posts: 1150
Location: Germany
I decline.

Have you ever read the sixth preliminary article of Immanuel Kant's 1795 essay, » Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch «?

If not, I recommend it.

Maybe you will understand why I refuse to accept your challenge, in which I can see no purpose.

You made it clear that you think I’m a stupid lying and defrauding shithead and that you hate me. Your insults have gone beyond any acceptable limit. You have made it more than clear that you do not respect me as a person nor care for my opinion. Therefore there is no reason for you to try to convince me of anything.

And if you only want to state your opinion and plead for the transsexuals, you can do that in the already existing thread.

I have asked you to do that several times already.

You declined.

I’d be more than delighted to read for a change instead of two, three staccato sentences from you a coherent essay which provides evidence for facts and draws comprehensible conclusions concerning transsexuals and their treatment from these facts; an essay that is not written assuming that non-transsexuals are as familiar with that topic as transsexuals.

Maybe I will not ignore you if I see that you are really putting substantial effort into it and are not merely distorting what I have said.

That is the only possible way to convince me of anything anyway.

And I do not care if you now act all superior and claim that I have chickened out or whatever you want to do.

The simple fact is that after all you have said, I do not care about your opinion at all and I do not respect you as a debater.

That's another reason why I cannot accept your challenge.

To challenge someone or to accept a challenge of someone usually indicates a minimum of respect between both parties.

This respect does not exist between us and I do not want to give you the impression that I may respect you beyond the basic respect each human being, even murderers, child molesters or politicians are getting from me.


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 600 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 40  Next

Board index » Discussion and Debate » Other


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: