How many UFP commandoes would take over the Death star

[l33telboi]

So automatic defenses can't miss or be surprised?

Sure, automated defenses can miss, but if they have a hit rate of 0% after an extended period of shooting at someone not five meters from then they are quite simply put - crap. And that’s what I’m conveying here.

It's simply logical really, and even a child would realize that if these things can't hit anything before they're destroyed, then they're of little actual use. And this is the proven case in this instance since they fail to do anything of worth, even though they’re presented with quite ideal conditions. Further more, I dare point out that having such automated turrets in an area where you have friendlies is downright crazy. The likelihood of killing your own by accident would be pretty much the same as hitting the enemy. And that’s a very very bad thing.

Better call in Pentagon and have them scrap the ABM missile shield then.

Because a missile shield is the same as an automated anti-personnel turret that can't hit people five meters away, right? You would be well off to take it as a rule of thumb that if you have to resort to analogies like that then the case you're making probably isn't worth it.

Why don’t you go ahead and say what you’re arguing for out loud, just to see how silly it is – you’re suggesting that an automated turret that can’t hit the enemy standing so much as five meters away is a good thing to mount in a room where you have lots of friendlies. Anyone with so much as a shred of common sense will tell you that this is a very bad idea and that the turrets are crap.

You remind me why I love fanboys. You simply can't accept that your side has a flaw and that it isn't the best at everything forever, thus you proceed with arguments where you're trying to say automated turrets that can't hit people from five meters away are a good thing.

It's quite priceless.

Camera is constantly changing angles and zooming on Siskos face as he is shooting. There is no way to tell their accuracy.

There is a rather simple way, actually. Count the amount of confirmed hits and misses you see on-screen, i.e. take the shots you explicitly see missing people and compare them to the shots you see hitting people. If you see a shot fired but not whether it hits or not, then that would be dismissed as an unknown. Statistical probability would dictate that the figure you got from the confirmed misses and hits would be pretty close to the figure you'd get if you'd have an opportunity to measure all shots fired. Unless we're dealing with a statistical abnormality of course, which are called abnormalities because they’re rare. This is also why it's better to use instances where lots of shots are fired compared to instances where only a few shots are fired, because with an increased sample size the margin of error decreases.

This should all be fairly straightforward and not something I need to explain to you. So, applying that methodology to the scene in question, I get the following:

Confirmed hits: 17
Confirmed misses: 7
Accuracy percentage based on confirmed hits and misses: ~71%

They knew Jem'Hadar were coming and were entrenched, the guys in prison had no idea what hit them.

But after shooting for a while, they should know who they're shooting at, otherwise they're just a liability because they're spraying and praying in an area where there are more friendlies then hostiles.

It'd boil down to a choice between them being idiots or having bad aim.

Of course in the case of automated defenses that's a moot point. If they start firing then they better damn well know what they're shooting at, and them firing is proof that they’ve acquired a target.

Again you are taking a few chaotic battle scenes and pretending you can actually gauge accuracy out of them. Nevermind that you never even attempted to present the actual data like distance, actual accuracy rate, target movement, terrain etc etc.

Because all of those things favor Starfleet in this case. The range was greater, the enemy was running among rocky terrain as opposed to standing still in an open room. And after a while people were on-and-off switching between melee and ranged combat.

Of course this is also why I've so graciously pointed out that you're free to pick the lowest showing you can find, and I'll find 5 worse showings on SW side. And yes, when statistics show that every measurable instance shows one side much more accurate then the other, you've established a trend.

There are lots and lots of combat situations spread throughout the TCW and the movies. None of them show accuracy anywhere near that of the ST side. But, if you want to try and prove me wrong then you can always suggest one battle that would indicate otherwise.

Except of course it's easier to shoot at someone holding still in the middle of a room carrying a sword then someone actually shooting back isn't it?

I dare point out that the Starfleet side is being shot at. By the time the Klingon's have switched over to melee, so have Starfleet. So again, the point is moot.

They beamed grouped together in the middle of the room standing there stupidly with their swords and the surrounding Starfleet officers mowed them down with their phaser standing not 4m away. Whoop-de-do.

Just like Han, Chewie and Luke stood grouped together in the middle of the room standing there stupidly while surrounding defenders completely failed to get a single hit in on them. That’s the difference see. The Starfleet side is hitting their enemies while the stormtroopers aren’t.

And as a minor point - what you're doing now is akin to using a minigun in a glass house.

It's not exactly the same as you are actually exchanging fire with someone.

You're free to pick an incident of your choosing whenever you want. An incident you think would be a good measure. Of course we both know you're not going to do it because you know SW has far worse accuracy. And so you'll keep trying to tiptoe around the argument and simply wave your hands while declaring that you've not seen anything to suggest Stormtroopers have worse aim.

I guess Garak's accuracy rate when he easily mows down the moronic Klingons rushing into a narrow corridor with their swords is also a demonstration of superior Cardassia aiming skills.

Oddly enough it is. Because we've seen stormtroopers fail match his feats. They miss where he hits.

[Kane Starkiller]

Right, posting movies which show firefights in which the UFP manages to hit stuff does not count as evidence for the claim 'they can hit stuff'. As opposed to the ever-accurate clone/storm troopers I suppose, which just about always miss everything all the time. Including stationary targets I might add.

So why am I not surprised your stance is that the UFP is no more accurate than the "we're so bad at shooting stuff our aiming 'abilities' have been parodied in Spaceballs"-crew?

Oh wait, thats because of the 'the automated defenses where surprised' nonsense you've been spouting. I suppose the computer just didn't have it's day. Maybe it was busy watching Friends on channel 235?

Heck, we can build auto-aiming guns that outperform that downright pathetic showing right now. No need for SF tech to do it.

Who ever said Federation troops "can't hit stuff"? Who ever said Stromtrooper accuracy is better than that of the Federation? It was l33telbois claim that Federation troops have a much better range and as evidence he produced videos of Federation troops hitting guys with swords standing still and Jem'Hadar charging a chokepoint and that compared that with Imperial troops being surprised by people they thought were their colleagues.

Sure, automated defenses can miss, but if they have a hit rate of 0% after an extended period of shooting at someone not five meters from then they are quite simply put - crap. And that’s what I’m conveying here.

It's simply logical really, and even a child would realize that if these things can't hit anything before they're destroyed, then they're of little actual use. And this is the proven case in this instance since they fail to do anything of worth, even though they’re presented with quite ideal conditions. Further more, I dare point out that having such automated turrets in an area where you have friendlies is downright crazy. The likelihood of killing your own by accident would be pretty much the same as hitting the enemy. And that’s a very very bad thing.

Did we see the automated defenses shoot at all? Do automated defenses have the authority to decide for themselves who is the good guy and who is the bad guy? Do they have the authority to shoot back at what are apparently Stormtroopers because they are shooting at them? Honestly you would do well to think about such matters rather than overeagerly trying to paint every single incident as LOL Star Wars tech can't aim!

There is a rather simple way, actually. Count the amount of confirmed hits and misses you see on-screen, i.e. take the shots you explicitly see missing people and compare them to the shots you see hitting people. If you see a shot fired but not whether it hits or not, then that would be dismissed as an unknown. Statistical probability would dictate that the figure you got from the confirmed misses and hits would be pretty close to the figure you'd get if you'd have an opportunity to measure all shots fired. Unless we're dealing with a statistical abnormality of course, which are called abnormalities because they’re rare. This is also why it's better to use instances where lots of shots are fired compared to instances where only a few shots are fired, because with an increased sample size the margin of error decreases.

This should all be fairly straightforward and not something I need to explain to you. So, applying that methodology to the scene in question, I get the following:

Confirmed hits: 17
Confirmed misses: 7
Accuracy percentage based on confirmed hits and misses: ~71%

Based on camera explicitly cutting to Jem'Hadar soldiers as they are hit. Camera is not being "objective" therefore the scene is useless as there is no wide angle scene that last for an appreciable amount of time. And again the scene doesn't demonstrate Federation accuracy but Jem'Hadar stupidity.

But after shooting for a while, they should know who they're shooting at, otherwise they're just a liability because they're spraying and praying in an area where there are more friendlies then hostiles.

It'd boil down to a choice between them being idiots or having bad aim.

Of course in the case of automated defenses that's a moot point. If they start firing then they better damn well know what they're shooting at, and them firing is proof that they’ve acquired a target.

I already covered the automated defense. I also hope you realize the difference between Han, Leia and Luke laying down suppressing fire as they took a dive into the garbage disposal and Jem'Hadar running straight towards an entrenched position through a choke point.

Because all of those things favor Starfleet in this case. The range was greater, the enemy was running among rocky terrain as opposed to standing still in an open room. And after a while people were on-and-off switching between melee and ranged combat.

Of course this is also why I've so graciously pointed out that you're free to pick the lowest showing you can find, and I'll find 5 worse showings on SW side. And yes, when statistics show that every measurable instance shows one side much more accurate then the other, you've established a trend.

There are lots and lots of combat situations spread throughout the TCW and the movies. None of them show accuracy anywhere near that of the ST side. But, if you want to try and prove me wrong then you can always suggest one battle that would indicate otherwise.

Wrong. Surprise was on Luke's and Han's side when they jump the guards and after additional Stormtroopers arrive they must pass through a chokepoint (a prison door) while the trio is laying down suppressing fire just before they dive into the shoot.
I cannot find a lowest showing in Star Wars because in Star Wars the other side is never that retarded to allow their enemies to pick them off as easily as, for example, Klingons during the attack on DS9.

I dare point out that the Starfleet side is being shot at. By the time the Klingon's have switched over to melee, so have Starfleet. So again, the point is moot.

No. The battle begins with Klingons beaming in the middle of the bridge most of them with swords but one or two with disruptors. The beam in sound alerts the crew and the Klingons are promptly taken down. Most of the guys with disruptors get taken down before they even get the chance to fire off a single shot.

You're free to pick an incident of your choosing whenever you want. An incident you think would be a good measure. Of course we both know you're not going to do it because you know SW has far worse accuracy. And so you'll keep trying to tiptoe around the argument and simply wave your hands while declaring that you've not seen anything to suggest Stormtroopers have worse aim.

SW has both sides more evenly matched so they cannot manage to easily pick the other side off. When we see a bunch of Rebels trying to storm Stromtroopers with swords and they can't hit them then we'll talk.

Oddly enough it is. Because we've seen stormtroopers fail match his feats. They miss where he hits.

You don't say? There is a scene with Rebels trying to jump a Stormtrooper in a corridor using swords? Which part is that?

[l33telboi]

Who ever said Federation troops "can't hit stuff"? Who ever said Stromtrooper accuracy is better than that of the Federation? It was l33telbois claim that Federation troops have a much better range and as evidence he produced videos of Federation troops hitting guys with swords standing still and Jem'Hadar charging a chokepoint and that compared that with Imperial troops being surprised by people they thought were their colleagues.

In translation: l33telboi made a claim, then supported it with evidence, and was even kind enough to allow Starkiller to counter the claim with the lowest showing he could conjure up, at which point l33telboi would produce more evidence in support of his position. Starkiller refuses to play along because he knows l33telboi is right and the only defense is to close his eyes, cover his ears and go: "Nananananana".

Did we see the automated defenses shoot at all? Do automated defenses have the authority to decide for themselves who is the good guy and who is the bad guy?

I take it you're too lazy to check up on whether the automated defenses shoot yourself? In any case, yes, we see them shoot. Some of the blaster bolts come from angles that could impossibly come from stormtroopers, unless they suddenly developed the ability to fly. And there are still shots coming from them when there's no guards left in the room. Pretty sure the novelization mentions them too, I could check if you want?

And if they don't have the ability to choose who to fire on, yet do so... well, that's a pretty major design flaw. I shouldn't have to tell you why.

Do they have the authority to shoot back at what are apparently Stormtroopers because they are shooting at them?

Apparently they do. And even if they wouldn't be allowed to shoot at stormtroopers, there's still a huge Wookie standing in the middle of the room. Remember how the whole thing started? “Oh my God he’s loose!”

Honestly you would do well to think about such matters rather than overeagerly trying to paint every single incident as LOL Star Wars tech can't aim!

I’d be very careful about thinking about such things, because they ultimately pain an even worse picture of Star Wars then merely bad accuracy. Designing automated turrets that can't tell friend from foe, and isn't allowed to fire on hostiles, yet does so? And to repeat something you seem to want to neglect at every turn possible: This is not limited to the cell block scene. Bad accuracy is something that’s seen in every movie and every episode to have been released so far.

And yes, if the entirety of the Star Wars six movies and the first season of TCW exclusively show that no one can aim in this verse, then I will point this fact out, whether you like it or not. I have no vested interested in making up apologetic arguments in favor of Star Wars. You obviously do.

Based on camera explicitly cutting to Jem'Hadar soldiers as they are hit. Camera is not being "objective" therefore the scene is useless as there is no wide angle scene that last for an appreciable amount of time. And again the scene doesn't demonstrate Federation accuracy but Jem'Hadar stupidity.

Basically you're saying that when it comes to Star Trek everyone misses whenever the camera turns around, while in Star Wars everyone hits when the camera turns around? Brilliant thinking there, champ. :D

What I detailed above is quite logical and valid. Even if the camera only shows hits, then it should show nearby misses too (and frequently does). And if they had poor aim, then there'd be more misses then hits. Overall, you should see more hits then misses wherever the camera is pointed. Unless it’s for some reason specifically avoiding to film misses. But then if we assumed that then we’d naturally have to assume the same for Star Wars.

As for Jem'Hadar stupidity... remember what I said about miniguns and glass houses earlier? During the battle of Christopsis the clonetroopers do the exact same thing. They had perfect cover, but instead decide to get up and run straight up to the enemy, and... kick them or hit them. The only difference between the two battles is that the Starfleet side had massively better accuracy ratings when the enemy came running in. And the stormtroopers actually survived despite standing at arms reach from an entire column of enemy soldiers blasting at them.

I also hope you realize the difference between Han, Leia and Luke laying down suppressing fire as they took a dive into the garbage disposal and Jem'Hadar running straight towards an entrenched position through a choke point.

By that point it’s already too late. The guards had them out in the open for nearly half-a-minute with plenty of time to kill them… but they failed.

Wrong. Surprise was on Luke's and Han's side when they jump the guards

Sure, the guards were surprised initially. But after having stood there blasting at each other for nearly half-a-minute, they should've figured out what the deal was.

And like earlier mentioned; talking about surprising automated defenses in this case is absurd. If they were really surprised then they shouldn't have been firing at all.

and after additional Stormtroopers arrive they must pass through a chokepoint (a prison door) while the trio is laying down suppressing fire just before they dive into the shoot.

You might want to watch the scene again. By the time the heroes are laying down suppressive fire the stormtroopers have already cleared the door and are standing at the entrance of the cell hallway.

I cannot find a lowest showing in Star Wars because in Star Wars the other side is never that retarded to allow their enemies to pick them off as easily as, for example, Klingons during the attack on DS9.

If that's the best you can do, then my challenge is bound to end quite quickly. :D

Not only do the droids first fall for what can only be the stupidest ruse I've ever seen, but then both sides proceed to just stand there out in the open, not five meters apart, unmoving, and blasting repeatedly from the hip... and the droids doesn't hit so much as a single time.

Not that I admire your attempt to try to shift the question to regard the competence of the Klingons just to avoid dealing with the issue of accuracy.

No. The battle begins with Klingons beaming in the middle of the bridge most of them with swords but one or two with disruptors. The beam in sound alerts the crew and the Klingons are promptly taken down. Most of the guys with disruptors get taken down before they even get the chance to fire off a single shot.

Hold on, let's take another look at what you just said:

"...most of them with swords but one or two with disruptors."

"...Most of the guys with disruptors get taken down before they even get the chance to fire off a single shot."

I take it your math isn't all that good? How can only one be armed with a disruptor, if most of the guys armed with disruptors are taken out before firing? Oh well, I wouldn't expect you to be coherent at this stage. I would expect you to be able to watch a video and not mess up simple facts that can be checked with one tiny click. 8 of the Klingons are armed with disruptors.

And you're still trying to avoid the issue of accuracy. The bridge crew are suddenly surprised by the presence of hostiles, and then manage to one-shot kill them all. Usually it takes no more then two or three seconds between the enemy appearing and them being taken down. Should we go back to compare that with the detention block showing? Yes, let's. Similar circumstances as above, but the Death Star guards blast away at the heroes for 27 seconds without hitting anything!

Like I said. Twist it anyway you want, or try to shift the discussion to something else, but you're not changing anything. The detention black shootout was quite simply put an abysmal showing of accuracy. As is the entire ordeal on the Death Star. As is the entire Star Wars trilogy, prequel trilogy and TCW.

Hell, I didn't even intend for this to get derailed to an issue of accuracy, but what else can one do when you can't seem to admit even the most basic and obvious of facts? “That was a pretty terrible showing of accuracy.” “No it wasn’t! My side is the bestest!”

SW has both sides more evenly matched so they cannot manage to easily pick the other side off. When we see a bunch of Rebels trying to storm Stromtroopers with swords and they can't hit them then we'll talk.

Alright, natives with melee weapons versus Star Wars, let's examine what we have.

Well, the first, and most obvious, thing to come to mind is quite naturally the Ewoks. Remember these furry fiends and how they managed to time after time after time overwhelm stormtroopers? The stormtroopers didn’t get any magical plus points to accuracy in that case.

Then let's move on to the TCW. In the episode Trespass we see both a clonetrooper base and a droid base be overrun by natives wielding spears. We later see another group of clonetroopers come under attack by spear wielding natives. Want to take a guess as to how their aim is? Did it suddenly improve by orders of magnitude? :D

Next up is the episode Defenders of Peace, where a tribe of small furry hippies comes under assault from the droid army. These furries aren't even willing to club their opponents to death, and yet they manage to fend off the evil droids without a single casualty.

Sorry, but the soldiers in Star Wars go down to things much more tame then Klingons. And let's not forget, the Klingons, with their weapons, are still more accurate then the most elite from Star Wars. Oh, you think I'm wrong? Then show me an incident where a stormtrooper, clonetrooper, droid or rebel, has displayed better accuracy then the Klingons.

You don't say? There is a scene with Rebels trying to jump a Stormtrooper in a corridor using swords? Which part is that?

There are plenty of similar scenes, i.e. a stormtrooper standing in a corridor with his target not five meters away and he still manages to miss. One scene that comes to mind immediately is when they've chased Luke and Leia onto that ledge and Luke has to use his grappling-hook to escape. Two stormtroopers appear behind them, five meters away at most, and start blasting. There's 10 shots fired at the pair of heroes, no hits.

Imagine if good old Garak had been there. Just *zap* *zap* and we'd have a premature ending to the trilogy.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The attack on DS9 showed shitty Klingon tactics. If they could beam troopers in, then they could beam people out. The first thing to do would have been to beam the leaders in a sealed room, surrounded by Klingon troopers.
Easy.
I'm also surprised that no one uses flash or stun grenades, or something equivalent for large area effects.

The Klingons lost because they deserved to loose.

In Trek, "armies" have become so complacent and proud of their little ships, and perhaps their good accuracy due to phaser eacquiring tech, that they don't know anything about armour, personnal shields as a standard issue, and other area supression devices. Mind you, the stormtroopers hardly do any better, and the few uses of anything resembling a grenade I can think of is the recent CGI show, where assassin droids throw a couple of them in the episode with the outpost and the cave worms.

And what about what I wrote on page 1?

Also, if there were automated defenses, if one could actually prove that they ever fired, 0% is so shitty that it equally takes a very dishonest bad faith not to attempt to rationalize this; for example, by arguing that the defenses opted for suppression fire. You'll notice that these supposedly active automated defenses didn't seem to shoot down any Imperial, not even those on their side, despite the so called crappy aim of 0% at less than five meters, and that despite the troopers standing in front of the triangular things in the walls.

You see a guy (black helmet flavour) suddenly coming into the screen from the left (that several seconds later in the shooting) and getting shot in the back. But it can be attributed to that other guy who popped out of nowhere, probably got a shot at Luke or Han, but saw his bolt intercepted.

I watched the scene, and you'll have hard times arguing that defense systems were firing at all, if only for the fact there's a very few and still barely angled shots flying towards Hand and Luke, and the firing against them precisely stops when the last Imperial man gets shot.

Now, you don't need to focus on that scene only to admire stormtrooper aim. You have it with Han charging at a pack of troopers, or you have it with Luke and Leia stuck on a ledge, shooting down stormies, although they had some cover.
Then later on you have Luke blasting some stormies as they evacuate, while none can even land a shot anywhere close to him.
Of course, character shields suck, and the whole Death Star section of the film was about main characters vs goons in a giant metal ball. The only ones to die in DS9 were redshirts. That said, Sisko was about to be shot in that ground battle at the comm relay chokepoint, and Kira got stabbed, although her character shields were so tough that the blade bounced off the bones and melted due to the sheer power of Bajoran main character blood (+10 Maquis buff btw).

Find cases of main character surrounded by "redshirts" in SW and you get some death, although a lot more misses that are seen in the two Trek videos. And I'm sore Kane, but even when the camera shows Jemmies being shot down, you don't see an equal amount of beams missing. It's just that the aiming was good. Period.

Now, the most amusing part about this video is the following comment:

Armin Shimerman as Quark is AMAZING in this? episode. Just look at the emotion on his face. It's one of his very best performances and he was frankly one of the best actors on the show.

He surely means whatever emotion that is allowed to surface through the latex. :P

[l33telboi]

Also, if there were automated defenses, if one could actually prove that they ever fired, 0% is so shitty that it equally takes a very dishonest bad faith not to attempt to rationalize this; for example, by arguing that the defenses opted for suppression fire. You'll notice that these supposedly active automated defenses didn't seem to shoot down any Imperial, not even those on their side, despite the so called crappy aim of 0% at less than five meters, and that despite the troopers standing in front of the triangular things in the walls.

The facts don't change no matter how you want to rationalize it. The defenses are there to neutralize attackers, failed to do so even after a prolonged period of time, and got shot down as a result. Ergo they were quite useless in the role of defense. Same thing if you want to call this suppression fire; there’d be no reason to do such a thing in this case, and every reason not too. So if that’s what they did then they are bad automatic defenses.

And no, I did not expect that my comment on their accuracy would launch us into a one-page sidetrack debate, because I honestly didn't think someone would be crazy enough to defend the showing as anything other then abysmal.

Now, the most amusing part about this video is the following comment:

He surely means whatever emotion that is allowed to surface through the latex. :P

He's right though. Quark, as a character, was quite good considering he was supposed to be simple comedic relief. Just compare him to Neelix, or Jar-Jar, and you’ll see what I mean. :P

[Mr. Oragahn]

The facts don't change no matter how you want to rationalize it. The defenses are there to neutralize attackers, failed to do so even after a prolonged period of time, and got shot down as a result. Ergo they were quite useless in the role of defense. Same thing if you want to call this suppression fire; there’d be no reason to do such a thing in this case, and every reason not too. So if that’s what they did then they are bad automatic defenses.

And no, I did not expect that my comment on their accuracy would launch us into a one-page sidetrack debate, because I honestly didn't think someone would be crazy enough to defend the showing as anything other then abysmal.

Well call me crazy, because I don't think it's even saner to argue that these things couldn't land at least one bolt on a target in proper conditions.

• For one, I'd like you to tell me what the automated defenses are supposed to be.
• Secondly, show me that they were active:
  • We never see a single bolt coming from the things above the consoles or embedded in the walls.
  • The fire stops when the last Imperial crewman dies.
  • Were the devices above the consoles sensors? Then since Chewie hit them first, they could be responsible of the lack of hits of these PD guns --if they exist or even were active.
  • Would the defenses shoot people armed with Imperial weapons or wearing Imperial gear?
  • Would anyone want droids firing willy nilly in such a cramped room in case of a totally improbable attack?
  • There's actually only a few angled shots, they're not coming from that high, and the cell corridor was several steps above the console room's floor.
• The aiming of Imperial automated systems is a bit better than that: the probe on Hoth is surprised by Chewie's bait, swivels its gun and fires once, largely missing him by two meters or three, and fires twice more even farther, in the rough direction of the drifting thick cloud of vapourized rock and snow --perhaps a clue about the locking system having troubles when there's too much thick smoke that could misinterpreted for moving silhouettes? There were copious amounts of smoke and even flyings gouts of metal during the firing (clue?)-- Then Han fires at it, and the droid retaliates. Its bolt would have hit Han squarely if there had not been that lump of snowy rock Han ducked behind.
  The hit ratio of the Trade Federation's droidekas was also higher in TPM, with nearly 50% of the bolts being sure hits if not repelled by the Jedi's lightsabres.

And this is a question totally relevant to the topic at hand.

[Mike DiCenso]

If we really wanted to wank up Trek ala the Saxtonite method, we could just invoke TOS' "The Squire of Gothos", "Bread and Circuses", and "The Omega Glory" where it is clearly stated that with hand phasers a few men could take on thousands of savages or 16-29th century tech level soldiers and win, or at least cause significant casualties before being overwhelmed.
-Mike

[Roondar]

In Trek, ... that they don't know anything about armour ...

Well, that.. Or their guns just make body-armor of the not ridiculously-thick-metal types obsolete. Which is what we actually see on the shows/in the movies.

You know, with stuff like them shooting through metal substances like they're not there. Hitting people on their clothes/leathery-armor stuff -not even breaching their clothing mind you- and stunning/killing them nontheless.

Or hitting decidedly metal-plated borg drones with kill-level shots and well, killing them outright -armor or no armor- as long as their adaption doesn't kick in.

Now, as to why they don't wear body shields... That is a good question!

[Mike DiCenso]

We've seen body armor in Trek several times. The first instance was the light armor worn by Enterprise security personel in ST:TMP. This armor would be re-used a few more times throughout the TOS movie franchise. Skip ahead to the TNG-era, and we have in DS9's ""Nor the Battle to the Strong" the armor that Starfleet trooper Burke was wearing as seen here.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

We never see a single bolt coming from the things above the consoles or embedded in the walls.

But we do see many bolts coming at Han and Luke fired from above the guard's positions, in line with the "sensors" or "defenses", however you want to call them.

Unless you're willing to tell me that there were guards levitating, or clinging to the walls during the attack, then these bolts must have come from these "automated defenses"...

The fire stops when the last Imperial crewman dies.

That's not true.
Look at the scene again, you'll notice that, even after the last guard gets shot, there are a few more shots fired, and Han and Chewbacca continue firing on these "devices"...

[Youngla0450]

The Death Star has 25,000 stormtroopers and some 10,000 guards. That is more then enough to squash 200 Federation commandos!

[Roondar]

The Death Star has 25,000 stormtroopers and some 10,000 guards. That is more then enough to squash 200 Federation commandos!

If they ever manage to hit them, that is. So I guess they'll do fine :)

[Youngla0450]

The Death Star has 25,000 stormtroopers and some 10,000 guards. That is more then enough to squash 200 Federation commandos!

If they ever manage to hit them, that is. So I guess they'll do fine :)

I doubt it.

[Praeothmin]

The Death Star has 25,000 stormtroopers and some 10,000 guards. That is more then enough to squash 200 Federation commandos!

If they ever manage to hit them, that is. So I guess they'll do fine :)

I doubt it.

I agree.
Even considering the crappy aiming of Stormtroopers and the automated defenses, eventually a few lucky shots will get through, and only 200 Commandos, while being sufficient to cause great damage, would simply not be able to take over the entire DS.
If we assume the ST Commandos know about the DS and the Empire and their capabilities, we need to assume the same thing for the Empire, that they know the ST Commandos' capabilities, inclusing Phasers and Transporters.

They simply don't have the manpower...

[Roondar]

In case this was not obvious, my earlier reply was mostly because our new poster has a tendency to see things very black and white:

Empire: coooool and allpowerful
UFP: sucky and weeeeak.

I decided to play around with that a bit. Maybe not nice, but then - he wasn't either ;)

(Besides, we allready know that three or four hardly-inconspicous types can breach the DS-I security quite nicely. They only needed their scary jedi-powers a grand total of one time to make it through, so I see zero reason why an UFP strike team would not have similar chances.)