The Federation is weak

[Mike DiCenso]

The Federation is weaker! Scientific studies and deep analayizes made by Mr. Wong on his site back up my theories. Here is a example of the Federation's Communist culture:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... mit=Submit

There is also this link below, proving the weakness of Federation computers and ships:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... mit=Submit

All that is discussed and largely debunked in this thread, as well as this one here and this one here. You may also wish to read Graham Kennedy's article on money in the Federation here.
-Mike

[sonofccn]

If the Death Star came into use, bye-bye Federation! The Federation is pitifully small. The Empire has some 100 million fighters, 10 million minor capital ships, 25,000 Star Destroyers, and 5,000 major Destroyers, compared to the Federation's 1,000 fighters and 1,000 capital ships. Also, the Empire has 12 million member systems and 50 million colonies, compared to the 150 member worlds and 1,000 colonies of the Federation. The Death Star alone would have more firepower then the ENTIRE Federation Starfleet. The Imperials would most likely use the Death Star to destroy major planets in the Federation, to make a example of the Feds or to force them to surrender. Planets including Andoria, Tellar, Tarsus III, Alpha Centauri, Earth, Vulcan, and Betazoid are the planets most likely to be destroyed by the Death Star!

Just out of curosity where are you getting your fleet numbers? Notably you fed numbers and the 10 million minor capital ships for the Empire.

As to the Death Star itself one runabout plus sensors equals a photon torpedo down the reactor shaft and bye-bye battlestation.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The thing is, I'm not against this debate. I remember one similar at SBC, from a couple months, where both I and Mith got locked up with Leo and perhaps Lord Vespasian or Schatten and else about what each side could really do once you took into account what the Empire had to fight against constantly, namely the Rebels, and the degree of annoyance they represented. Ensued, logically, long discussions about the size of fleets, logistics, industrial power, etc. I think we had left out the hyperlane mining talk out.

But Youngla tries too hard to literally reboot the entire thing by citing SDN. Nah, not good enough.

Besides, it always come to the point of which era of Trek we're talking about. Generally, and that's depending on what you're taking into consideratin, the Empire is generally seen at its height around TESB, although I think the less idiotic it was was before it poured too much money in the second Death Star, and perhaps even before it took the power of the first Death Star too seriously, because back then the Empire had to count on a true navy and not some overkill and perhaps ridiculous deus ex machina which seemed to be mocked by many old timers in Imperial ranks (something that's even demonstrated by how people were more ashamed by the loss of the Executor than the loss of the Death Star).

Trek's FTL speeds are low in comparison, but SW gains all its speed from hyperlanes which are heavily maintained. I remember Vespa arguing that the Empire could brute force new routes through unknown territory, by perhaps sacrificing some exploring ships equipped with hyperdrive, so having to map out certain regions would only delay the massacre. The question therefore turned out to be if the Empire could divert that many ships into a campaign of a foreign group such as the Federation for example, regardless of the plothole used to connect both universes.

The largest conflicting piece of information was about the 10% reserve fleet Palpatine kept in the galactic core, why he did so, etc.
I argued that he kept them for the Yuuzahn Vong he apparently knew of. There also were other species he was concerned with, namely the sphere people (dangerous large sphere ships which could destroy worlds or something, and which Palpatine's Empire could do nothing about). I think me and Leo reached some kind of agreement on that.
I said that he would also have to train more squads and crews for those ships, and I think I brought evidence that the Empire already reached a limit, as it were, in the number of new troops and crewmen it could place into its Navy and Army.

Then also came the subtopic of how taxing the Death Star project was to the Empire. There appears to be conflicting information: some sources speak of the Empire having tap civilian budgets and has to cannibalize transceivers for example, while JMS recently cited one that pegs the Death Star budget as the budget of a couple army sectors. That said, since we don't know if the Empire could even allow to cut the budget of even one entire sector to drive it towards the DS project, I may be overreading this piece of information.
The Death Star was also undercrewed, which means that even if you could build many ships with a Death Star, you couldn't crew them adequately, since the Death Star had like a million people aboard.

When the thread started to focus on fleet sizes and the Rebel problem, the case of Dac and its sector was brought as evidence to what the Empire could presently do. Raids on Imperial forces all over the galaxy were also brought up.
The counter argument was that Palpatine was letting things go as he banked on the superstations to win. I argued the point, remembering the pro-Empire side that Rebels also had access to superlaser plans and that since a Death Star could only really be dealt with by another superlaser, or a series of weaker superlasers, the escalation of destruction and the need for the Rebels to hurt the Empire even more directly could only result in a large collapse of the entire Empire.

There also was the obvious point to make, that the Empire solely orbited around Palpatine, and that anyone who could kill him would really bring the Empire to its knees and accelerate the feudal infighting: invasions of other regions of space would be completely interrupted.
Trek side has two advantages here: they had a very advanced level of technology, and hyperdrives were a very common tech, powered by systems which were nothing like the UFP couldn't handle.

It was more a question of infiltration, intelligence and gathering the necessary tech to get it done, plus a map of the galaxy (quite easy to do) and eventually go for a kill strike against whatever planet Palpatine would be on.
It also became important to realize that the Empire could lose many planets, even in its core (false flags would be good here btw), while the UFP couldn't really allow losing Earth and its system at all.
It seemed most obvious that a post Dominion war UFP would be better equipped to handle the fight, but it's requiring too much speculation (even if it would be possible to make more or less safe assertions about their ship production rate during the war and thus project it for the decade coming after the war).
Without picking a weakened UFP, we would be looking at the pre-War state, although I'm not sure the UFP would have really increased its military branch and naval production much.

[sonofccn]

@Mr. Oragahn:That sounds like it was an interested debate with actual points being discussed and studied rather than the crash-boom-rha sort of mentality I assoiciate with most space battles threads.

Personally I think post dominon war Federation would be defeated by post ANH Empire. They should have the raw resources and manpower that, should Palpy want to, he can overwhelm the feds zerg style. Wouldn't be cheap of course, sacrificing easily thousands of hulls and what...tens of thousands of lives if not more and of course would take years to pull off.

[Trinoya]

As I said in the other thread.. I thought I smelled a troll.. and either I was right or this person is too young to realize what they are saying and doing.

[Mike DiCenso]

@Mr. Oragahn:That sounds like it was an interested debate with actual points being discussed and studied rather than the crash-boom-rha sort of mentality I assoiciate with most space battles threads.

As I've noted before in other threads, Leo1/Vympel is not incapable of a rational debate, as he has been known to do so since the Strek vs Swars forum days when he had no rabid pro-Wars mods, the AOTC ICS or other like-minded debaters to back up his poor behavior.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

Maybe, maybe not.

It just gets very tiresome to have people spout this stuff over and over and over and over again. Not just here, but pretty much every vs environment.

Besides, I didn't feel I was being particularly harsh. I was - maybe in the wrong style - attempting to show why Mr. Wong is not a valid resource. That and it's not like his posts where non-confrontational.

Repetition is a natural part of the business. And every so often, what we think is repetition is, in fact, something new.

As I said in the other thread.. I thought I smelled a troll.. and either I was right or this person is too young to realize what they are saying and doing.

Really doesn't matter. You can address what they say or ignore it either way. I'm not going to call someone out for "trolling" simply for citing SDN.

[Youngla0450]

You people's still are for the Federation. Anyways, evidence to the Federation's communist nature is of the Federation Starfleet controlling all space travel, inter-stellar communications, and scientific research. Neither Captain Picard nor Dr. Crusher knew of investment or money! Also, the government tried to seize control of Data, originally developed by a civilian scientist, thus suggesting government control of property. All ships in the Federation appear to be government-owned transport vessels, shuttles, and warships! Also, Picard lied about Starfleet being a non-military organization. However, it clearly has military procedure, as well heavily armed weapons. Starfleet ships are used for the defense of the Federation. Also, Wesley, in that episode involving the Edo, was exposed to a environment in which sex is considered a routine part of life. The poor boy would have been messing with one of the girls there had he not known.

[sonofccn]

Also, Picard lied about Starfleet being a non-military organization. However, it clearly has military procedure, as well heavily armed weapons...Also, Wesley, in that episode involving the Edo, was exposed to a environment in which sex is considered a routine part of life. The poor boy would have been messing with one of the girls there had he not known

I know this is a stupid question but what does either of the above have to do with Communism? Picard being a liar,highly debatable, and being a lousy guardian, much less debateable, are not exactly traits native solely to commies.

At the very least one should properly divide ones rants into coherent subgroups to more effectivly convey why such and such non-real science-fantasy is horrible, stupid and courrpt and would be effortlessly destroyed by your prefered non-real science-fantasy.

[Youngla0450]

Also, Picard lied about Starfleet being a non-military organization. However, it clearly has military procedure, as well heavily armed weapons...Also, Wesley, in that episode involving the Edo, was exposed to a environment in which sex is considered a routine part of life. The poor boy would have been messing with one of the girls there had he not known

I know this is a stupid question but what does either of the above have to do with Communism? Picard being a liar,highly debatable, and being a lousy guardian, much less debateable, are not exactly traits native solely to commies.

At the very least one should properly divide ones rants into coherent subgroups to more effectivly convey why such and such non-real science-fantasy is horrible, stupid and courrpt and would be effortlessly destroyed by your prefered non-real science-fantasy.

So many problems the Federation has. I will detail more later.

[Mike DiCenso]

You people's still are for the Federation. Anyways, evidence to the Federation's communist nature is of the Federation Starfleet controlling all space travel, inter-stellar communications, and scientific research.

Evidence, please? Nothing in any Star Trek episode shows us this is actually the case. We know of Federation starfleet controlled subspace relays, but nothing was stated that those communication relays were the sole source of such communication for that sector, nor have we seen restricted travel. Does the Federation regulate and patrol areas of space used for travel? Probably, but that does not make it communistic any more than United State regulation of freeways, railways, and regulation of interstate commerce make it a communistic state.

Neither Captain Picard nor Dr. Crusher knew of investment or money! Also, the government tried to seize control of Data, originally developed by a civilian scientist, thus suggesting government control of property. All ships in the Federation appear to be government-owned transport vessels, shuttles, and warships!

Evidence again, please. You apparently did not read the articles or threads I linked to. What episode did Picard and Crusher show ignorance of investment or money? As for government owned for all ships and transports, what evidence do you have for this? Kassidy Yates, Harry Mudd, Vash, and Cyrano Jones all had access to private transport or owned a transport vessel of their own without anyone punishing them for owning or making use of said private transport, nor even showing the slightest bit of suprisde at that.

Seizing control of Data had nothing to do with him having been made by a private individual (by the way, Doctor Soong was belived dead at this time, and had no known heirs who could have taken "ownership" of Data), it was because he was a unique form of technology that was at potenitial risk of being lost forever if anything happened to him, and one scientist in particular wanted to study Data.

But to the point; how does this make the Federation communist? The actions of Starfleet would be perfectly reasonable, if Data were not sentient/sapient, and has no owner to claim him. The trial as seen in "A Measure of a Man" makes it clear that there is a due process, and was successsful in arguing that Data was his own person and such can be afforded the same rights as any sapient organic citizen in the Federation. I doubt you'd find the same for Artoo and threepio in the Galactic Empire where enslavement of machine as well as organic life is a commonplace practice.

Also, Picard lied about Starfleet being a non-military organization. However, it clearly has military procedure, as well heavily armed weapons. Starfleet ships are used for the defense of the Federation.

This is a bit of a fine line here. Picard is quite correct in that the stated primary mission of Starfleet is first and foremost peaceful exploration and contact. That Starfleet vessels have a secondary defense mission is also clearly made known, but it is not their sole purpose. But to the point; how does this make the Federation communist? Perfectly reasonable, if Data were not sentiant/sapient.

Also, Wesley, in that episode involving the Edo, was exposed to a environment in which sex is considered a routine part of life. The poor boy would have been messing with one of the girls there had he not known.

Wesley was an acting ensign by that point, was he not? And how does this tie in with your thesis that the Federation is communist anyway? All that shows at most is that Picard sent a young officer down to a situation that was possibly beyond his experiance and training up to that point.
-Mike

[Cocytus]

Anyways, evidence to the Federation's communist nature is of the Federation Starfleet controlling all space travel, inter-stellar communications, and scientific research.

I see no evidence this is true. Starfleet did not control Genesis, it was a civilian project under Carol Marcus' control.

Furthermore, control over space travel and communication would not necessarily make the Federation Communist. These are the Ten Points by which Karl Marx expected societies to progress to the class-less, utopian future he envisioned:

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

Centralization of the means of communication and transport in he hands of the state.

Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

I see no evidence that the Federation exerts anywhere near the control you say. Starfleet is a quasi-military organization under the control of an elected civilian authority. Not unlike the US Military. The significant differences are that Starfleet has no wage system, which is a tenet of certain forms of anarchism, and that Starfleet has more that just military and peacekeeping functions. Neither of these is enough to label even Starfleet Communist, to say nothing of the entire Federation.

Neither Captain Picard nor Dr. Crusher knew of investment or money!

Dr. Crusher charged a bolt of fabric to her name in "Encounter at Farpoint." The vendor obviously expected the Federation to honor his price and remunerate him. This suggests the Federation has a credit system in place to deal with currency-using races which it encounters and interacts with.

Also, the government tried to seize control of Data, originally developed by a civilian scientist, thus suggesting government control of property.

How does that in any way suggest the government owns all property? The government attempted to exert control over something and was prevented from doing so by a legal hearing, which is something that happens all the time in many countries which are not Communist, including the US. There are also laws in most countries, including the US, that enable the government to seize private property for certain purposes. It's called eminent domain.

Also, Picard lied about Starfleet being a non-military organization. However, it clearly has military procedure, as well heavily armed weapons.

Starfleet absolutely has military procedures and weapons. How does that make it Communist? Part of Starfleet's role is defense of the Federation. Of course they're going to have weapons.

Starfleet ships are used for the defense of the Federation.

And? Should they rely on mercenaries instead of their own personnel?

Also, Wesley, in that episode involving the Edo, was exposed to a environment in which sex is considered a routine part of life. The poor boy would have been messing with one of the girls there had he not known.

Sex is a routine part of life. The Edo are more sexual than people on Earth may be used to, I grant, but Wesley wasn't being punished for a sexual infraction. He stepped in a flower bed, and the Edo punished every crime with death, regardless of the seriousness of the crime. Picard and his officers argued that justice must fit the crime. How is that in any way evidence that the Federation is Communist, given that the Edo culture developed entirely independently of the Federation? They had had no previous contact. Picard's log states: "Captain's Log, Stardate 41255.6. After delivering a party of Earth colonists to the Strnad solar system we have discovered another class M planet in the adjoining Rubicun star system. We are now in orbit there having determined it to be inhabited as well as unusually lovely. My first officer has taken an away team down to make contact and they are in the process of returning to the ship."

[Youngla0450]

Well, here are some of my arguments:

Their transporter biofilters do nothing-The transporters have those biofilters or "decons" that are supposed to be used to identify and neturalize any threatening toxins or contaminations of boarding parties. However, several times, the biofilter computer was unable to detect the contamination or failed to prevent it, as seen in "The Naked Time".

Councillor Troi is a political officer-The only reason Councillor Deanna Troi is on the Enterprise is because she is a political officer. Troi's publicily-recognized duty is to "help" crew-members with mental problems or help them control their emotions. In reality, she is in charge of detecting the thoughts of all crew and their families, and to report to Starfleet Command of any possible political or military insurgency.

There is no use for families on Starfleet vessels-There is no use for families to be aboard Starfleet vessels. They usually head into dangerous situations and missions, and usually these threaten the lives of the crew and the civilians onboard. In one episode, the Aldeans even kidnapped at least seven Enterprise children, including Wesley. Thus, if the ship is disabled in battle or even severely damaged, several civilians and children could die.

Holodecks are worthless-There is no use for holodecks onboard Starfleet vessels. The holodecks waste precious space on board Federation vessels, reducing battle efficency and firepower for the sake of entertainment for the crew AND civilians! Usually the holodeck controls malfunction, leading to users of the holodeck being trapped or severely or slightly injured or even killed.

[Trinoya]

Really doesn't matter. You can address what they say or ignore it either way. I'm not going to call someone out for "trolling" simply for citing SDN.

Well I was more or less basing my opinion there on his posting style. I digress however, I concede the point to you JMS in regards to address him.

Their transporter biofilters do nothing

Your evidence for this is its occasional failure? Wouldn't every time a transporter is used and nothing comes out of it (something I'd say would encompass 90% of trek) be an example of success then?

Councillor Troi is a political officer-The only reason Councillor Deanna Troi is on the Enterprise is because she is a political officer. Troi's publicily-recognized duty is to "help" crew-members with mental problems or help them control their emotions. In reality, she is in charge of detecting the thoughts of all crew and their families, and to report to Starfleet Command of any possible political or military insurgency.

Capacity to be utilized as something does not immediately equate to use... or do you honestly believe that all cars are used to carry soldiers into battle against windmills/giants?

It's comical that we've never once seen her doing this as well, isn't it? I guess the federation screens the episodes before we get to watch them to make sure we don't ever see this happen.. but I'm sure you were on set and know how it really went down. Please provide evidence for this claim immediately or I will accept your concession.

There is no use for families on Starfleet vessels-

I grew up on Governors Island New York, it's a coast guard base. I grew up there because my father was in the Coast Guard. Allowing families to live on base and be easily accessible is proven to increase morale... I'm sure this is more so on long voyages in space...

That said, not every federation ship has families on it... no.. only the primary exploration craft we have seen (TNG Mirandas and Galaxies) have them...

In fact.. Voyager, Enterprise NX-01, NCC 1701, A, B, C, E, J every ship to carry the name Defiant (three in all) and numerous science vessels through out the series were shown to not have any families on board...

As near as I can tell, only the Saratoga and the Enterprise D had families on board by default. Perhaps the Stargazer (not sure on that one). That said I'm pretty sure I can cite more ships that had no families on board (and subsequently ships not on 'indefinite missions' at that) than ships that did.

Though I will admit, I wasn't exactly paying attention to all that we saw on the random ships that passed by... as such if someone else has more information on the matter I would welcome the input.

Holodecks are worthless

Wait wait wait.. do you honestly suggest a system of photons, force-fields and replicators that can create battle simulations, design training missions, provide real time environments for people to interact with, as well as double as a recreation device for personnel is useless? Dangerous perhaps, but useless? I'm reasonably sure the fact a holodeck has been used to save lives pretty much means your argument is fruitless. I also believe it's tactical applications which we have seen far outweigh the handful of malfunctions.

It appears to me that your posts are largely opinion and speculative and have little if any substance to them... perhaps you would like guidance in how to effectively engage in debate? I'm sure members here would be more than willing to educate you on some of the more common terms and practices.

This presumes, of course, that you are not as I speculated a troll... I await your response so that I may perhaps reevaluate my initial opinion of you.

[sonofccn]

@Trinoya

Personally I think your giving him too much credit saying Troi could even do what's he claiming. Beyond the sheer illogic of it all and out of character behavior there is the simple fact that she isn't a telepath, most of the time at least. She can only read's a person emotions so at best she could tell if a crewman was nervouse but not that it was because he was planning to rebel against the captain or because he was late for his shift again.

grew up on Governors Island New York, it's a coast guard base. I grew up there because my father was in the Coast Guard. Allowing families to live on base and be easily accessible is proven to increase morale... I'm sure this is more so on long voyages in space...

Still there is a differnce between living on a base and "sailing" beyond the markers of the map. I understand the reasoning why they do it but I don't agree with it. The final frontier is too dangerous to risk civilians much less children. Still as you noted we don't know how common it was and the practice itself seems to have faded away all togather following the domionian war. I can't remember another ship with family on it following that at least, the Ent-E didn't as far as I know.