The Federation is weak

[Youngla0450]

If the Death Star came into use, bye-bye Federation! The Federation is pitifully small. The Empire has some 100 million fighters, 10 million minor capital ships, 25,000 Star Destroyers, and 5,000 major Destroyers, compared to the Federation's 1,000 fighters and 1,000 capital ships. Also, the Empire has 12 million member systems and 50 million colonies, compared to the 150 member worlds and 1,000 colonies of the Federation. The Death Star alone would have more firepower then the ENTIRE Federation Starfleet. The Imperials would most likely use the Death Star to destroy major planets in the Federation, to make a example of the Feds or to force them to surrender. Planets including Andoria, Tellar, Tarsus III, Alpha Centauri, Earth, Vulcan, and Betazoid are the planets most likely to be destroyed by the Death Star!

[Khas]

*facepalm*

Are you some SDNer trying to be a troll here? Only they, and a few of the mods at SBC still hold on to those views. If you look around here, you can see that most of those arguements have been discredited, and mainly by the TCW show. Those claims don't hold that much water at all.

[Youngla0450]

The Federation is weaker! Scientific studies and deep analayizes made by Mr. Wong on his site back up my theories. Here is a example of the Federation's Communist culture:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... mit=Submit

There is also this link below, proving the weakness of Federation computers and ships:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... mit=Submit

[Roondar]

The Federation is weaker! Scientific studies and deep analayizes made by Mr. Wong on his site back up my theories.

You are of course aware that other people have come to different results and that Mr. Wong being a scientist does not actually mean he is right?

Especially since the man is well known to be utterly biased against Star Trek in ways that cause him to state things are so obviously false it's laughable to even consider them?

There is, in fact, no reason whatsoever to accept his results - they are internally inconsistent (400GW shields but also 150KT torpedoes = downright epic math failure!) and fly straight against canon (he conveniently ignores everything but the lowest showings in the series and movies), make downright silly claims about the nature of weapons (DET or not DET does not actually matter, the result does), armor (the same people who build ships that survive atmospheric rentry on screen can't build ships that could do that very thing we saw happen by his calculations - so they are wrong again!), etc, etc, etc.

And that's just whats wrong about the parts where he describes Star Trek. When he starts on Star Wars it gets even more transparant troll-material. He ignores everything that could lead to a low result, presents high end numbers as if they are actually low end, ignores all visual evidence that points against his precious empire being effective or anywhere near his level of claimed firepower and shield strength and then has the audacity to call his number scientific and unable to be proven wrong (because no one else is apperantly qualified to do so - such a laughable excuse I can't even take it seriously). At the same time!

Here is a example of the Federation's Communist culture:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... mit=Submit

Sigh.

Even if the Federation was Communist (which is not, by the way, proven in any way by what ammounts to an opinion piece of someone on the internet), this does not mean they'd be weak (don't forget just who build the most powerful weapons on Earth ever, or the biggest transport airplanes etc - the USSR was not a nice place, but it did achieve plenty of interesting things before it's collapse) or ineffective. Assuming resources are plentiful enough the system might even work.

Nor does an absence of money mean an absence of personal ownership of goods or even a communist culture. Besides, with the rediculous amount of glamorizing the old USA that goes on in the series and movies by those darned communists, the position that they actually are secretly communists is silly at best.

And by the way, even if he was right (which he isn't)- I'd still much rather live in the UFP than in the slavery-allowing, genocide commiting, bigotry based dictatorship that is the GE.

There is also this link below, proving the weakness of Federation computers and ships:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... mit=Submit

I see no proof there that isn't disproven elsewhere. Try again.

[The Dude]

Jesus man, he's obviously just some kid.

[Roondar]

Maybe, maybe not.

It just gets very tiresome to have people spout this stuff over and over and over and over again. Not just here, but pretty much every vs environment.

Besides, I didn't feel I was being particularly harsh. I was - maybe in the wrong style - attempting to show why Mr. Wong is not a valid resource. That and it's not like his posts where non-confrontational.

[The Dude]

No that was a general "jesus he's just a kid." From the tone and phrasing of his posts it looks like he's some kid looking to score points.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'm afraid this is just a shiny bait of some sort.

[sonofccn]

I'm afraid this is just a shiny bait of some sort.

So is this where I exclaim "Its a trap!" or did I botch the timing of another gag/refrence?

Still he might be a fun troll, things have been sort of quiet recently.

[Mike DiCenso]

I have to chime in here and say that I smell an SDN/SBC troll here.
-Mike

[Youngla0450]

Data himself is quite a stupid android. Although his memory can hold vast amounts of data, and he is strong enough to deform a 20th-century gun barrel, he has made several mistakes:

*Data gave suggestions that doomed the Enterprise or even worsened the situation

*Data sometimes miscalculates, as evidenced with his calculation of the size of the Dyson Sphere encountered in "Relics"

*Data cannot adopt human emotions and feelings, despite nearly two decades of effort, while his older android brother, Lore, can easily use human emotions and spellings.

[Roondar]

Tssk, tssk, tssk..

I really shouldn't do this, but:

What intelligent human being would confuse 'stupid' with 'very occasionaly gives advice that is not correct'?

The answer here being: well, not a smart one ;)

[Youngla0450]

I do admit though, that Data is the Federation's highest example of android technology. Such technology in the Federation has only been developed in the last 40 Federation years, while in the Empire, such technology has been used since at least 26,000 years ago.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

The Federation is weaker! Scientific studies and deep analayizes made by Mr. Wong on his site back up my theories. Here is a example of the Federation's Communist culture:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... mit=Submit

Ok lets make some corrections...

Culture: Starfleet fills the Enterprise with children and families, even though we know that it is routinely sent into extremely dangerous situations.

Culture: Starfleet allows families on board certain federation ships if the famalies wish to be on board.

Culture: the Federation has almost no knowledge of the Ferengi at this point, but it has apparently disseminated negative misinformation to its officers anyway.

Biased SDN members are unable to recognise sarcasm or a bluff.

Culture: their blind faith in their technology is so great that it leads to reckless abandonment of prudent safety measures. They don't use environmental suits or 24-hour quarantine periods. Instead, their away team members happily allow themselves to be infected with dangerous pathogens, and then they rely on the transporter to remove them afterwards!

We have NEVER seen any kind of decon attempted or mentioned in SW.

Culture: the Prime Directive rears its ugly head. People are dying on Styris IV and Picard won't forcibly take either Tasha Yar or the precious vaccine, even though the Ligonians are relatively primitive and weak. Therefore, they must humour the bizarre customs of Ligon II.

It goes without saying that an Imperial officer would have dealt with this situation in a somewhat more "forceful" way :)

TRANSLATION:

Imperial officers have no faith in the fighting abilities of their officers...rather understandable considering the examples we have seen where stormtroopers get owned by 3ft tall teddy bears..

Ted Collins notes that by the time the Federation has familiarized itself with the Ferengi, it had already "educated" its youth with these unfavourable characterizations, as Tom Paris and Ensign Kim both demonstrated in the Voyager pilot episode "Caretaker" with their statements about the Academy warning all cadets about Ferengi dishonesty. Odd behaviour for a society that claims to have "evolved" beyond racism.

Yea what are they thinking telling their officers the truth about a culture and its policies regarding trade ect........racism, nop just accurate reports on a culturl phenominon?...

Culture: our first glimpse of current Federation attitudes toward capitalism. The very word appears to have taken on a negative connotation, and it is used here to differentiate themselves from the Ferengi.

Mike Griffiths notes that in the televised version, Data's last line was changed to:

"Hardly sir. I believe the analogy refers to the worst quality of capitalists. The ferengi are believed to conduct their affairs of commerce on the ancient principle "Caveat Emptor" - "Let the buyer beware", sir"

So the changing of the comment for televised CANON status makes the first point worthless?.......so why bother posting any of it?.

Culture: one would hope that Picard would now realize the folly of rushing headlong into dangerous situations (such as the pursuit of a potentially hostile starship about which they know nothing) with civilians still on board. However, over the years to come, he will continue to take his ship into dangerous situations without leaving the saucer section behind.

It is called freedom of choice, the families have CHOSEN to be on board.

Culture: naturally, the Ferengi find the Federation's policies of communism and trade restriction to be offensive and immoral, just as the Federation apparently finds capitalism "nefarious" and immoral.

All this is disproved earlier on the very same page (2 quotes up).

Culture: positive spin put on shameful admissions. The human mind is not rational by nature. The same joke seems funnier when it's accompanied by a laugh track, the same tragedy is more heart-wrenching when accompanied by sad music, and the same admission of despicable moral cowardice can be perceived as proof of morality if it is presented properly.

By the more "enlightened" morals of the Federation, I suppose that means UN intervention in "ethnic cleansing" incidents was totally immoral, while the Catholic Church's conspicuous silence during Hitler's Holocaust was supremely moral.

Wait.....comments like this from a supporter of a empire that made the nazis look like poor amatures?....why is the UN not in africa?..

Culture: Riker attempts to portray the wholesale replacement of real meat with replicated synthetic food in a good light, by describing it as the end of inhumane animal enslavement.

This is all the more interesting since DS9 showed real seafood being cooked on Earth, and Picard uses his influence to have real caviar brought on board. Does the Federation regard livestock animals as sentient and therefore inviolate, without extending the same considerations toward aquatic life? Or is this evidence of a contrast between the stated values of the Federation and its actual conduct?

Do you remember ST4? What would the powerful, mysterious friends of the Earth's humpback whale think of this double standard?

Again we see the "freedom of choice" idea fly bye bye...

Culture: Picard is still "alive" and perceptible by Counsellor Troi, despite being physically destroyed. It would seem that he has a non-corporeal "soul", but no one seems willing to dwell on this, or discuss its spiritual implications.

Consciousness = soul.......a interesting comparison for a hater of creationalists.

Culture: breathlessly envious description of the planet of the "Edo", where the family structure seems to be nonexistent. Communal relationships and pure hedonism are the order of the day. Starfleet's finest seem to approve.

This in itself may offend modern societal norms but it's not necessarily scandalous (I imagine that a modern military vessel's crew might enjoy the idea of shore leave in such a place). However, it is interesting that no one, not even his own mother, has any problem with the idea of sending prepubescent Wesley down into this environment. It's one thing to expose children to the knowledge of sex, but when there's a real possibility that they might experience the sex act itself (years before they're mature enough to deal with it), shouldn't a parent show at least some vague hint of concern?

Wait did he miss the next part of the episode when it is clearly mentioned that wesley would not be exposed and ends up playing with children his own age?.

Culture: the holodeck technology must be quite new to the Federation, given Picard's "delight" with it (not to mention Riker's astonishment and unfamiliarity in the first episode).

Wayne Poe notes that this technology was first deployed as a frivolous entertainment device on Galaxy Class starships, rather than being initially deployed as a training device at the Academy (or, for that matter, on those aforementioned Galaxy Class starships).

Im sure picard and riker are both from older ships and have been out of the academy for a long time, we do see a holodeck used in the academy when wesley goes to be tested....

Id like to see the evidence wayne poe has that supports that statment.

Culture: Picard again demonstrates Starfleet's casual attitude toward the lives of the civilians aboard the Enterprise, as well as the lives of their children. One must ask why Starfleet has no regulations covering this situation, if they insisted on filling their warships full of civilians and children.

I would like to see these women on children in chains being dragged on board the enterprise because the federations "INSISTS" on having them on board.....

Culture: Worf talks about "our way" when he was raised from childhood in the Federation, but his only knowledge of other Klingons comes from academic study.

Apparently, those studies never included the Organian incident in "Errand of Mercy", in which Kor took an entire town hostage, and ordered his men to butcher the helpless, unarmed Organians by the hundreds unless his demands were met.

inter arma enim silent leges.

Culture: Klingons conceal enough components in their standard armour to construct a weapon, provided at least two of them are present. Real-life soldiers routinely strip prisoners in order to make sure they aren't concealing any weapons, but this sort of prudent measure obviously doesn't occur to the men and women of Starfleet.

Nor does the empire considering princess leia was wearing the same clothers when she was rescued.

Culture: Picard again gambles with the lives of all the families on the Enterprise, by taking them with him into a potentially deadly confrontation in the Romulan Neutral Zone. It never even occurs to him to separate the saucer first, just as it didn't occur to him in "The Last Outpost", "Arsenal of Freedom", or "We'll Always Have Paris".

Cops in the USA can give ride alongs, are they supposed to let a murderer continue on a rampage killing ppl just cos he has volenteers along?......no they sign a paper first and are AWARE there will be risk and they accept it.


..the biased and some times just totally wrong or deliberatly misinterpreted perspective goes on......and on and on..




I have no interest in correcting the errors or pointing out the predjudice on the rest of that page but you get the idea from the corrections i already made just how worthless it is...

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I do admit though, that Data is the Federation's highest example of android technology. Such technology in the Federation has only been developed in the last 40 Federation years, while in the Empire, such technology has been used since at least 26,000 years ago.

Wait a shiny gold dude that walks like he needs the bathroom (or did not make it), and a blue and white dustbin that cannot even speak english and cannot tell the diff between a data port and a power socket?.....

Oh yea real high tech stuff.....