Apocalypse Rising Quote

[Mr. Oragahn]

Sorry, but what's the point you're getting at? Trying to count how many torps there would be in a full spread or some such?

[Mith]

Sorry, but what's the point you're getting at? Trying to count how many torps there would be in a full spread or some such?

The torpedoes are the least of my worry. We can clearly see it's six or less, given O'Brien's reaction. The biggest issue is the way the torpedoes are dispersed. For example, if a full spread is forms a sphere around the target in 2 kilometers, that would alter the results.

I was hoping to find an image of the base or possibly some form of way to determine its size, but I'm not entirely sure that the quote I provided about the devices covering that distance of 12 cubic kilometers is a solid enough source. I remember a vague quote of Picard trying to indimidate someone with a full spread, but I can't pinpoint the source yet.

However, there are some major issues with this attempt; the delivery. The Enterprise D, whome we have these spread examples of, fires up to five torpedoes at once. That makes it rather difficult to pinpoint what will happen when the one delivering the bombardent is only able to toss out one.

[Jedi Master Spock]

With regard to endangering everything within hundreds of kilometers, I'm afraid it's not an issue of distribution. One way or another, you need to come up with multiple gigatons to distribute much energy at that kind of radius; it doesn't really matter if the torpedoes are a couple km apart or a couple cm apart.

There's a similar reference in "A Time to Stand," in which an asteroid base gets pegged by 90 isotons - enriched ultritium at work. In this case, the base isn't some super-fortress, as Ty'Gykor is; in this case, we have the very explicit dangerous radius of 800 kilometers mentioned.

In any case, we've seen that shields on a GCS are generally powered by fusion reactors, and our only detailed station example uses a fusion reactor, so we would expect Ty'Gykor to run on fusion power, meaning that it wouldn't necessarily have much in the way of secondary explosions due to onboard antimatter.

[Mike DiCenso]

I remember a vague quote of Picard trying to indimidate someone with a full spread, but I can't pinpoint the source yet.

You're probably thinking of "Code of Honor" from TNG's 1st season. Mr. O and I discussed this one in another thread dealing with torpedo and TL explosion sizes as seen in ST and SW's VFX, and their possible yields. The "display blast" was set to go off above the planet at 1,000 meters and was shown from space with each explosion of a rather substantial size, indicating tens of megatons to possibly hundreds of megatons per torpedo.
-Mike

[Mith]

I remember a vague quote of Picard trying to indimidate someone with a full spread, but I can't pinpoint the source yet.

You're probably thinking of "Code of Honor" from TNG's 1st season. Mr. O and I discussed this one in another thread dealing with torpedo and TL explosion sizes as seen in ST and SW's VFX, and their possible yields. The "display blast" was set to go off above the planet at 1,000 meters and was shown from space with each explosion of a rather substantial size, indicating tens of megatons to possibly hundreds of megatons per torpedo.
-Mike

I was afraid of that.

Crap.

The only other way I can think of is to assume that this is the normal yield of the Class X torpedoes. That might actually work, since we know that these torpeodes are higher yield and would be ideal for orbital bombardment. Of course, that would also force us to conclude that a BoP carries around at least five or so of them, but that isn't a stretch since we know that even Voyager had 3 of them, so five isn't that bad and would give us an upper estimation on what Voyager was carrying.

[Mike DiCenso]

There is no way to know for sure if the E-D or GCS carried MK. X torpedoes so I'am not sure that your reasoning applies. Also there is no way to be sure how the Klingons classify their torpedoes types for a direct comparison. But the potential yield range demonstrated in "Code of Honor" fits in with the "Rise" calcs for a photon torpedoes with a yield in the 50-200 megaton range.
-Mike

[Mith]

There is no way to know for sure if the E-D or GCS carried MK. X torpedoes so I'am not sure that your reasoning applies. Also there is no way to be sure how the Klingons classify their torpedoes types for a direct comparison. But the potential yield range demonstrated in "Code of Honor" fits in with the "Rise" calcs for a photon torpedoes with a yield in the 50-200 megaton range.
-Mike

This is actually a BoP. However, I'm putting it as an example of the MK. X because that's the highest yield torpedo we've seen and given the ranges of this torpedo--well, you get the idea.

So conservative upper limit for Federation ships and the like is 1025 megatons.

As for 50-200 megatons, that sounds about right.

[Mike DiCenso]

I think you're getting a bit mixed up, Mith. There is no evidence that the GCS at the time of "Code of Honor" carried Mark X's, so even if a Mk. X is much higher yield, it would still mean that there is a possibility that the Voyager carried ones are much higher than the E-D's CoH torpedoes. But how either of them translated to their Klingon counterparts (yes, I am aware we are talking originally about a BoP) in terms of over all firepower and the like, especially on a medium sized BoP which may or may not have the antimatter reserves for something like the kind of firepower demonstrated by Voyager and the E-D's individual torps at full or even default yield.
-Mike

[Mith]

I think you're getting a bit mixed up, Mith. There is no evidence that the GCS at the time of "Code of Honor"

I think you've lost me. How does the dispersal of the torpedoes in Code of Honor have to do with this?

carried Mark X's, so even if a Mk. X is much higher yield, it would still mean that there is a possibility that the Voyager carried ones are much higher than the E-D's CoH torpedoes.

Possible, yes.

But how either of them translated to their Klingon counterparts (yes, I am aware we are talking originally about a BoP) in terms of over all firepower and the like, especially on a medium sized BoP which may or may not have the antimatter reserves for something like the kind of firepower demonstrated by Voyager and the E-D's individual torps at full or even default yield.
-Mike

Well, it depends on the amount of antimatter required or how they load the torpedoes. I personally don't think they take it from the engines. I always took it as a seperate machine or perhaps a pre-packaged system.

[Mike DiCenso]

I think you're getting a bit mixed up, Mith. There is no evidence that the GCS at the time of "Code of Honor"

I think you've lost me. How does the dispersal of the torpedoes in Code of Honor have to do with this?

I am not talking about dispersal patterns, I am talking about the apparent yields of the things. The size of the explosions from the "display blast" torpedoes given that they were set to detonate a mere kilometer from the surface was insanely huge for each torpedo.

But how either of them translated to their Klingon counterparts (yes, I am aware we are talking originally about a BoP) in terms of over all firepower and the like, especially on a medium sized BoP which may or may not have the antimatter reserves for something like the kind of firepower demonstrated by Voyager and the E-D's individual torps at full or even default yield.
-Mike

Well, it depends on the amount of antimatter required or how they load the torpedoes. I personally don't think they take it from the engines. I always took it as a seperate machine or perhaps a pre-packaged system.

Although it is from the ENT-era of the 2150's, this gives series of quotes from the episode "Hatchery" gives us some idea the AM reserves service both the engines as well as the torpedoes:

[Sickbay]

ARCHER: Stand by. Work with Trip. Help him get their reactor up and running.

T'POL: Sir?

ARCHER: We're going to transfer our antimatter to their ship. Use as much as you have to.

T'POL: Our reserves are at less than sixty percent.

ARCHER: I'm not going to let any more of them die.

This establishes the overall reserves for the ship are at 60 percent. Next we get more specifics that indicate the AM reserves are for both engines and torpedoes.

[Command centre]

TUCKER: To get that reactor running again, we'll have to use a third of our antimatter reserves.

REED: Why so much?

TUCKER: Every system on that ship is integrated. The only way to bring biosupport back online is to power up the whole thing.

REED: That's not going to leave much antimatter for our torpedoes, never mind our engines.

So at least in the 2150's the two seperate systems are fed off the same source. On a big ship like a GCS or SCS, it might be possible to have a reserve of antimatter that is exclusive for the torpedoes, but it seems wasteful, and it might be better to drain it from the same pods as the engines so that in a pinch you can keep up engine power for a while longer, if need be, using the reserve set aside for weapons.
-Mike

[Mith]

I think you're getting a bit mixed up, Mith. There is no evidence that the GCS at the time of "Code of Honor"

I think you've lost me. How does the dispersal of the torpedoes in Code of Honor have to do with this?

I am not talking about dispersal patterns, I am talking about the apparent yields of the things. The size of the explosions from the "display blast" torpedoes given that they were set to detonate a mere kilometer from the surface was insanely huge for each torpedo.

But how either of them translated to their Klingon counterparts (yes, I am aware we are talking originally about a BoP) in terms of over all firepower and the like, especially on a medium sized BoP which may or may not have the antimatter reserves for something like the kind of firepower demonstrated by Voyager and the E-D's individual torps at full or even default yield.
-Mike

Well, it depends on the amount of antimatter required or how they load the torpedoes. I personally don't think they take it from the engines. I always took it as a seperate machine or perhaps a pre-packaged system.

Although it is from the ENT-era of the 2150's, this gives series of quotes from the episode "Hatchery" gives us some idea the AM reserves service both the engines as well as the torpedoes:

[Sickbay]

ARCHER: Stand by. Work with Trip. Help him get their reactor up and running.

T'POL: Sir?

ARCHER: We're going to transfer our antimatter to their ship. Use as much as you have to.

T'POL: Our reserves are at less than sixty percent.

ARCHER: I'm not going to let any more of them die.

This establishes the overall reserves for the ship are at 60 percent. Next we get more specifics that indicate the AM reserves are for both engines and torpedoes.

[Command centre]

TUCKER: To get that reactor running again, we'll have to use a third of our antimatter reserves.

REED: Why so much?

TUCKER: Every system on that ship is integrated. The only way to bring biosupport back online is to power up the whole thing.

REED: That's not going to leave much antimatter for our torpedoes, never mind our engines.

So at least in the 2150's the two seperate systems are fed off the same source. On a big ship like a GCS or SCS, it might be possible to have a reserve of antimatter that is exclusive for the torpedoes, but it seems wasteful, and it might be better to drain it from the same pods as the engines so that in a pinch you can keep up engine power for a while longer, if need be, using the reserve set aside for weapons.
-Mike

Oh, I see. That would then make me wonder just what the different classes do. Or maybe one can make something Class X or so simply by altering the yield of the weapon.

[Mike DiCenso]

The casings of the various torpedoes appear the same and have not changed much in shape or size since the mid 2150's. So it's what's "under the hood", so to speak, that should make the difference: in this case, we have seen in VOY's "The Omega Directive", that significantly changing the yield of a warhead appears to be a relatively straight forward task. It could be that different classes and types of torpedoes are distinguished by what types of sensor suites, autonomous capabilities, as well as range and how large a warhead yield they can be set to.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

"SISKO: The plan is to smuggle these into Ty'Gokor. Once they're set up, they can cover about twelve thousand cubic metres."

It's actually a very small volume. About a 22.9 meters wide cube.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Replying to a post I missed. I don't want to pass off as rude, it was not my intent not to reply. Besides, I do have a strong disagreement to voice here, so that's a two-birds-a-stone bump. ;)

With regard to endangering everything within hundreds of kilometers, I'm afraid it's not an issue of distribution. One way or another, you need to come up with multiple gigatons to distribute much energy at that kind of radius; it doesn't really matter if the torpedoes are a couple km apart or a couple cm apart.

That's assuming we even have to take Damar's words literally. If they're firing on Gowron's head and if Damar thinks this will release so much energy that people will die within a few hundred kilometers radius (200~400), by picking Wong's calculator you're going for more than 450 gigatons deposited into one spot, at the very least and as a low end, to guarantee near total fatalities as per his calculator.
3.63 teratons for a radius of 400 km.

Is there any evidence that Ky'Golor is particularly large or even reinforced?
Besides, if we go by Generations as the weapons fired by the Bird of Prey against the E-D, we've seen that torpedoes can actually display effects which are generally associated to NDF weapons, which we know tend to propagate far beyond the effects of conventional weapons.
The better rationalization of TDiC also involves torps relying on copious amounts of NDF (notably in order to explain the very odd destruction they could cause and yet provide almost worthless against the 150 bugs).

There's a similar reference in "A Time to Stand," in which an asteroid base gets pegged by 90 isotons - enriched ultritium at work. In this case, the base isn't some super-fortress, as Ty'Gykor is; in this case, we have the very explicit dangerous radius of 800 kilometers mentioned.

I remember this one and we see the base explode in steps. The whole idea that the Defiant, shields up, could be threatened by a non efficient omnidirectional explosion from stuff put into small jars is also too funny for words.
With a dangerous radius which can threaten a ship which shields can tank multi-megaton attacks, you'll get a source explosion that's a trillion times greater.
So since the intensity at 800 km will need to be strong enough as to be a couple petajoules per square meters, most likely low e16 J, you'll need an intial yield like e28 J. That's just too OoMs short of the total energy of a small nova.

It goes without saying that in light of this evidence, and in light of the way the base exploded, a rationalization is pretty much required, no?

In any case, we've seen that shields on a GCS are generally powered by fusion reactors, and our only detailed station example uses a fusion reactor, so we would expect Ty'Gykor to run on fusion power, meaning that it wouldn't necessarily have much in the way of secondary explosions due to onboard antimatter.

Agreed.

[Mith]

That's assuming we even have to take Damar's words literally. If they're firing on Gowron's head and if Damar thinks this will release so much energy that people will die within a few hundred kilometers radius (200~400), by picking Wong's calculator you're going for more than 450 gigatons deposited into one spot, at the very least and as a low end, to guarantee near total fatalities as per his calculator.
3.63 teratons for a radius of 400 km.

Well, not really. Again, there's a great deal of radiation and burns that will probably kill them without anyone nearby to help. And the massive bits of radiation is going to wreck havoc on transporters.

Is there any evidence that Ky'Golor is particularly large or even reinforced?

What?

Besides, if we go by Generations as the weapons fired by the Bird of Prey against the E-D, we've seen that torpedoes can actually display effects which are generally associated to NDF weapons, which we know tend to propagate far beyond the effects of conventional weapons.
The better rationalization of TDiC also involves torps relying on copious amounts of NDF (notably in order to explain the very odd destruction they could cause and yet provide almost worthless against the 150 bugs).

What effects are you refering to in Generations?

I remember this one and we see the base explode in steps. The whole idea that the Defiant, shields up, could be threatened by a non efficient omnidirectional explosion from stuff put into small jars is also too funny for words.

Um...it wasn't the Defiant. They had used that stolen Jem bug from one or two seasons back.

With a dangerous radius which can threaten a ship which shields can tank multi-megaton attacks, you'll get a source explosion that's a trillion times greater.
So since the intensity at 800 km will need to be strong enough as to be a couple petajoules per square meters, most likely low e16 J, you'll need an intial yield like e28 J. That's just too OoMs short of the total energy of a small nova.

I assumed it was some sort of subspace shockwave of something. Or perhaps it caused an explosion deep in subspace that caused a great deal of energy to tear out into normal space.

There's no way a 90 isoton explosion is going to come anywhere near as powerful as that.