TCW CGI show and The State of the Debate

[2046]

Put simply, I see no way for anyone to realistically maintain that Star Wars technology is superior.

The evidence from the films, scripts, novelizations, and now The Clone Wars CGI series is pretty clear. With the films, we had thirteen hours worth of audio-video evidence, with additional explanation and extrapolation via the assorted canon text. Now with The Clone Wars, we already have an additional eight hours of tech-heavy detail.

And frankly, none of it is even close to the Wong/Saxtonian über-wank that is exemplified by the Star Trek vs. Star Wars pro-Wars side.

The only real advantage I've seen thus far is that hyperdrive speed appears to remain very fast, but without clear indications of distance there's still the possibility of swing either way.

But TCW has completely maintained the weapons ranges seen in the films, for instance, while also putting to rest all the claims of exploding consoles, that phasers suck because crates provide adequate cover, that warp reactors are just waiting to explode, that Trek computer security sucks, and so on, because Star Wars has all those weaknesses and many, many more besides.

In simple terms, the magic über-tech that some have claimed with a great and mighty thunder . . . well, it just isn't there. And even now, they are trying to claim that we shouldn't expect to see the über-tech, because it's so über it hides its über-ness. They're claiming that über-materials and über-weapons and über-heat-dissipation are the only explanation, and mean that you should never even have expected to see mushroom clouds from atmospheric combat between fighters, capital ships, and the like, because all the potential wild energy gets überred away, and you're a damn fool for ever thinking otherwise. They're even taking the valid point that an explosive an a laser of equivalent yield will behave differently due to the vaporization and pressure of the explosive versus the laser point heating, but they're trying to extrapolate this to absurd levels. As a hint, let me just say that for yields greater than -- oh, let's just call it a kiloton -- the nuclear bomb material vaporization means very, very little compared to the yield of the nuke itself.

And yet they persist. Sure, there's that little niggling problem about shots striking the ground or asteroids or what-have-you and doing nothing, but they try to cover that by suggesting that the blaster or turbolaser bolt is just tunnelling indefinitely, no doubt to emerge on the other side of the planet still angry and worth a gigaton of TNT . . . despite the fact that no such thing has ever been seen in regards to packing crates, sandy dune-tops, asteroids, or what-have-you.

It is safe, at this point, to identify it as a largely dead philosophy in Star Wars fandom. Everyone now knows the truth of what is canon, for instance, and that the EU is not the same as Lucas's universe. Everyone now knows TCW ranks higher than the EU. And even in the EU, the Death Star can no longer be claimed as a brute force laserbeam weapon any more than it ever could by film evidence.

Put simply, the Galactic Empire would be outgunned, out-shot, out-thought, outrun at STL, and out of time. The only thing they might be able to avoid is being outrun at FTL, but have no doubt that they would be running.

What we do know is that the Federation would be outmanned, and probably out-built. But that's all.

Ship-to-ship or in fleet action sublight battles, it would be like a thousand rifle cavalry versus a million cavemen with clubs. If fully invaded, the Federation would be in a Galaga scenario with its planets besieged (though a fun version of Galaga where the badguys can't even shoot at you until they've reached almost the bottom of the screen), but the number of ships and personnel required for the Empire to hold out long enough to defeat even a basic planetary shield and defense system and land on the surface is appalling given short Imperial ranges and a lack of transporters. Heaven forbid the Federation fleet have a chance to gather in numbers . . .

In short, assuming the Empire gets certain benefits like surprise attack and a long pre-invasion buildup, the Federation can be wounded even presuming that the Empire will spare no expense in destroyed ships or dead men for every cubic kilometer of space. But without über-hyperdrive allowing the Empire to completely bypass the vast majority of the Federation fleet by reaching and quietly conquering the primary Federation worlds in days rather than weeks, the Empire will be in a meat grinder.

Assuming the CGI show and the later live-action show remain largely consistent with what we've seen thus far from TCW, then in my opinion, the war really is over. The Wong/Saxton types are marginalizing themselves and they have nothing left to offer, because they've lost almost every argument -- their "facts", ever-disputable, have all been taken from them.

This certainly doesn't mean I'm retiring, quite yet, but that day is coming. The Trek vs. Wars stuff on ST-v-SW.Net still badly needs updates, CanonWars.com needs an update, NoLettersHome.info will have a life . . . but save for the über-wanker holdouts from SDN and SpaceBattles moderators, there won't be anyone to argue against.

It's kinda sad. I'd predicted the end of the Vs. Debate as coming when real tech so surged past the fantasy tech that no one cared about them anymore, but I see now that . . . assuming things remain more or less as they are now . . . the end will come much sooner. The original Trek timeline is closed and complete and Star Wars tech will never be a substantial threat . . . just sheer numbers.

But as history has shown (and as is an ironic fact given the old pro-Wars majority on ASVS and elsewhere), mere numbers often don't win wars.

[Trinoya]

It dawns on me that, even with faster FTL (which I believe star wars has) that one needs to still know where they are going... with poor sensors... wouldn't that effectively mean the war will essentially akin to the US Civil War... with the majority of the battles taking place in the territory of one side, rather than the other?

[Praeothmin]

Trinoya, you are correct in assuming they need to know where they're going, and they need Star Charts in order to jump to Hyperspace.
They need to calculate a trajectory, which as we've seen many times in the movies takes time, while in Warp all you need to do is plot a course and go...

[2046]

It's a common enough assumption that an invading or even merely curious Empire would trade for, steal, or capture a ship in order to acquire good star charts. Further, save for the Vaadwaur, there is no evidence of simple navigational data being secret, though the Vulcan star charts were a valuable military asset in the 2150s.

Given that the Earth Starfleet found assorted items not on the Vulcan charts (e.g. a protostar), one wonders just how complete and useful to the Empire such charts would be. However, I would wager they would be good enough at least throughout the Federation's most-travelled spacelanes.

And besides, Tatooine's discoverers arrived in the system without benefit of the knowledge that the planet was not another sun, per the ANH novelization. But they obviously arrived there somehow, and I rather doubt it was at sublight.

In any case, failing all else, I would think that the Empire could quickly put together an observatory ship to at least allow a basic sense of navigation.

[Praeothmin]

It's a common enough assumption that an invading or even merely curious Empire would trade for, steal, or capture a ship in order to acquire good star charts. Further, save for the Vaadwaur, there is no evidence of simple navigational data being secret, though the Vulcan star charts were a valuable military asset in the 2150s.
...
In any case, failing all else, I would think that the Empire could quickly put together an observatory ship to at least allow a basic sense of navigation.

I agree, I wasn't saying they couldn't advance at all, I was just specifying that it takes longer to jump to Hyperspace then Warp, and that for Warp travel, you only need real-time sensor readings to affect course corrections.
Still, with only basic star charts andmaps, advances wouldn't be at their top speeds, so even with their ordinarily faster FTL speeds, this would put them below ST ships at least at first...

[Trinoya]

Which is also my point, wouldn't the initial conflict, at the very least, take place in Imperial territory? I mean technically it all depends on how the war starts and where... but still, I believe it would be, at the very least, an initial devastating blow to imperial expansion plans if say, they weren't put right on top of a federation world.

Come to think of it, we may actually have enough evidence now to 'map' a theoretical war... from beginning to end.

[sonofccn]

Given that the Earth Starfleet found assorted items not on the Vulcan charts (e.g. a protostar), one wonders just how complete and useful to the Empire such charts would be.

Well for what it is worth we know that by the 23rd century, Episode Squire of Gothos, that charts were of sufficent detail that a certain pointy eared individual was surprised to find a planet where none was recorded.

I'm now getting a sizable
space displacement reading....

Iron silica body, planet size--
magnitude 1-E
Inconceivable this body has gone unnoted on our records.
And yet, here it is

I don't know if this incident is overruled by more numerous bad chart examples however.

[Mike DiCenso]

It's a common enough assumption that an invading or even merely curious Empire would trade for, steal, or capture a ship in order to acquire good star charts. Further, save for the Vaadwaur, there is no evidence of simple navigational data being secret, though the Vulcan star charts were a valuable military asset in the 2150s.

Assuming the Empire can capture a ship, they may get varying degrees of quality, depending on who what and where. Catching some local yokel trader may be good for that specific region of space, but it may not help them from a large-scale strategic viewpoint.

Given that the Earth Starfleet found assorted items not on the Vulcan charts (e.g. a protostar), one wonders just how complete and useful to the Empire such charts would be. However, I would wager they would be good enough at least throughout the Federation's most-travelled spacelanes.

I would not equate the Vulcan starcharts of the 2150's to the quality of starcharts available in the 2260's, or the 2360's and the rest of the TNG-era. As sonofccn points out with the "Squire of Gothos" example, it is very likely that many areas of space are fairly well mapped out enough to allow fast warp speed travel, which is why the E-1701 could travel in a week "hundreds" of light years out past where any ship had previously gone and still make it back in time for the next week's adventure. There may also be varying grades of starcharts available to civilians and military alike just like today you can get fairly good land and sea charts for civilian use, but the really highly detailed charts are often reserved for military use only.

That being said, we have seen in "Shadows of Malevolence" how captial ships in SW are highly susceptible to navigational concerns, especially the Balmorra nebula at the final leg of it's journey to get to the Republic medical station. Presumeably these areas of space are as well-charted as anything can get in that galaxy. So if they have such a great deal of trouble with that on their own home turf, what kind of problems are they going to run into, even if they do manage to steal or trade for starcharts of the Trek Milky Way Galaxy?

And besides, Tatooine's discoverers arrived in the system without benefit of the knowledge that the planet was not another sun, per the ANH novelization. But they obviously arrived there somehow, and I rather doubt it was at sublight.

In any case, failing all else, I would think that the Empire could quickly put together an observatory ship to at least allow a basic sense of navigation.

The Tatoonie example you give is a rather embarassing one for SW sensors on top of many, many others, though to be fair we can chaulk that up to colorful hyperbole for local mythology on the planet's discovery in the very distant past.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

This certainly doesn't mean I'm retiring, quite yet, but that day is coming. The Trek vs. Wars stuff on ST-v-SW.Net still badly needs updates, CanonWars.com needs an update, NoLettersHome.info will have a life . . . but save for the über-wanker holdouts from SDN and SpaceBattles moderators, there won't be anyone to argue against.

I certainly would wait until the live action series goes into production (if it ever does at this rate) before seriously thinking about retiring from all of this. If nothing else, you can be kept busy for years continuely updating your website as new pertinent information is made available. Sort of a "I told you so", and you need to be available to help the newcomers who will be poisoned in their initial forays by SDN and their dwindling numbers of fanatics that still populate SB.com to attack and distract people from the truth.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Come to think of it, we may actually have enough evidence now to 'map' a theoretical war... from beginning to end.

Well, not so easily, really. The two basic scenarios are "Federation Discovers the Galactic Empire" and "The Empire Discovers the Federation". From there it breaks down as to what elements of either side make first contact, and how it proceeds from there.
-Mike

[Trinoya]

Well it's safe to assume the following at the very least:

The two must meet through some sort of distortion, like a wormhole through time and space.

That both sides, in order to wage a war, should have a fairly easy time using this plot device to go from one galaxy to the other.

We know a rough assortment of fleets and fleet sizes for both sizes, and we can evenly distribute them through out their theoratically territory somewhat evenly.

We know the general strengths and weaknesses of each sides ships.


About the biggest question left is how would industrial power factor into the war... after that we can at the very least map out a basic 'conflict' to some degree... sure we can't say, "the battle happens at X location" but we can certainly see how the basics of each side fare when thrown together. We can do this more so if we simplify each side to some degree.

[Praeothmin]

Well it's safe to assume the following at the very least:

The two must meet through some sort of distortion, like a wormhole through time and space.

That both sides, in order to wage a war, should have a fairly easy time using this plot device to go from one galaxy to the other.

We know a rough assortment of fleets and fleet sizes for both sizes, and we can evenly distribute them through out their theoratically territory somewhat evenly.

We know the general strengths and weaknesses of each sides ships.


About the biggest question left is how would industrial power factor into the war... after that we can at the very least map out a basic 'conflict' to some degree... sure we can't say, "the battle happens at X location" but we can certainly see how the basics of each side fare when thrown together. We can do this more so if we simplify each side to some degree.

That's been discussed before in a Empire vs Federation thread, right here, so everything you mention has been analyzed pretty thoroughly... :)

[Kane Starkiller]

but save for the über-wanker holdouts from SDN and SpaceBattles moderators, there won't be anyone to argue against.

[2046]

I would say in any war scenario (e.g. sticking some sort of space/time displacement anomaly (e.g. a temporal wormhole) so they're connected), it basically boils down to a few things:

1. The Federation is not going to fight a war of conquest, but of defense. They will conquer as needed to defeat an enemy in a battle for survival, but that's about the extent of it.

2. The Empire's best hope is for a long war. Not only does this allow them to use their industrial capacity to its greatest extent, but it can give them the chance to try to get technology from the Federation.

Therefore, I'd say one of two scenarios must happen in a war:

A. The two meet, and the Empire initially tries to conquer the Federation but is repulsed, then comes back later with a tech enhancements and overwhelming numbers and wins. This entire story occurs over the course of a decade or so, and the Federation . . . much like modern America . . . is too short-sighted to see what is to come.

B. The two meet, and the Empire initially tries to conquer the Federation but is repulsed. The Federation (or an element thereof) recognizes the existential threat of the Empire and does the math, setting about the task of pacifying the Empire as quickly as possible. This might occur via rapid decapitation (The Coruscant and Palpatine Express), or via attrition like the Dominion War, or similar, depending on the scope of the story.

However, those two things only occur in war. What about matters like the Temporal Prime Directive? After all, these are guys from the past, but if they can return (e.g. via a temporal wormhole) then as soon as they appear Temporal Investigations is going to go apeshit.

What are the rules when people from the distant past appear but who are far-far-away? You piss them off, you risk having them holding a grudge for a billion years, long enough for them to have transgalactic ships or transgalactic galaxy-blaster torpedoes, or just becoming Q-like and wishing you away.

[2046]

but save for the über-wanker holdouts from SDN and SpaceBattles moderators, there won't be anyone to argue against.

So you're equating this to the conclusion of the Lincoln's mission (often also understood as the successful toppling of the Hussein regime), but noting that an insurgency, overblown by critics sympathetic to or actively aligned with the insurgency, will continue?

Sounds about right, really. Except, in this case, the Lincoln's still not finished.